The Nawaiwaqt Generation and the Power of No!

Tribute to Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chauhdary:

"As the heavens above will bear witness, if My Lord Chaudhry hadn’t stood up on March 9 last year, and if Pakistan’s lawyers in their thousands had not leapt to his defence, launching and sustaining a movement with few parallels in our strife-torn history, Musharraf’s rule would not have weakened and perhaps what we are experiencing now, Pakistan’s democratic spring, would not have happened. The crumbling of Musharraf began with Chaudhry and the lawyers’ movement."

- Ayaz Amir [http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=102394]

An elaborate account of happenings around Pakistan & the Political Machinery and how it affects what has happened and may happen in Pakistan.
I admired your summation of this super long matter and would suggest not to give an ear to those who appear to be drawing you in to a debate out of context. I think you have done a wonderful job of assimilation of matters as they exist by using the layman's non-scholarly non-molvi scenario of how Iblees the Satan acted and whatever took place at the inception of world, those who understand the entire scenario and those who wish to understand will do it without any follow up on this subject as that sub-topic is being exploited by those "satans" who wish to divert the attention of readers from the basic concept of your analysis.
Once again thanks for sharing your thoughts, when it comes to agree, some will, some won't, so what?

#427 Posted by MantoLives

"This is a well written piece as usual."

Missed your comments! I thought you and Feroz would have something to say but you two were AWOL!

HP,

This is a well written piece as usual.

I read this article, it’s funny how Sindhis will always trace all ills back to Punjabis, and Punjabis to Pashtoon, and Pashtoon to their goats or young lads they love to have sex with so much. But when the whole place is looking like a circus, smaller issues, such as treatment of Sindhi Hindus at the hands of the Sindhi uneducated land owners, and treatment of other minorities (religious and otherwise) gets buried under a heap of shit. What remains constant is finger pointing in every direction except towards their own kind, their own faith, and their own miserable (borrowing from and directed towards Masadi) selves.

Look at Leadenwinter's "Reality" piece on his ilog, where this army apologist has made a cheap third rate copy of my article on American Freedom in a plagirist's common soup manner losing its head and tail in the process. This disease affects many all across the colonized world....

later..

In #422 read "just if not more absurd than the religious mythology of preliterate tribes" as

"just as if not more absurd than the religious mythology of preliterate tribes

My newly submitted article that Chowk Staff is censoring as they have censored the nearly half dozen other articles I have submitted can be read at the link under:

LOST IN TRANSLATION: THE MYTH OF AMERICAN FREEDOM
MASADI.

http://blog.asadi.org


p.s: By the way, not to disturb your religious discussions in any way, claiming that certian things are "ridiculous" just because they happen to be outside of your own personal experience and consciousness isn't very smart. Much of today's knowledge when explained to the unknowing would sound equally "ridiculous"- not to mention that the current day myths, like the myth of American Freedom are factually just if not more absurd than the religious mythology of preliterate tribes, though it is pushed in a more sophisticated manner....

#419

You sound very much like an interactor who I have already asked NOT to interact with me. OR if you are the person who began this discussion with him, I am sorry that you had to go to this level.

Thank you for your unsolicited advice though. It is unfortunate that you read my post as "crawling" and even more unfortunate that you had to masquerade as another nick to tell me that. Not sure exactly what to call that. Calling the pot black?

When you have sobered up, perhaps you will see the ridiculousness of your advice. Until then, my way of interacting with HP or anyone is none of your bloody business. So you, kindly desist from telling me what to do, and this is the last time I am going to ask you NOT to interact with me. Baat aayi samajh maiN?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

HP,

I really did not mean to enter into any debate, and to cause you any inconvenience. If I had said at the beginning what I thought, we might have had this conversation earlier. Phir dekha aik aur taraf se khali "dishooN, dishaaN" ki aawaz aa rahi thi, aur socha, chalo keh dete haiN. So keh diya.

I do read Amardeep's blog often, but I can't recall that post so I will go back and read it again. Or I must have read it, which is why I thought of Milton and Paradise Lost Either way, thank you for bringing it to my attention again. :)

As for ridiculous religious concepts, I think you and Hamid M might be closer in thought regarding religion, and I will leave both of you to what you think!

#417
Now I don't believe that god was sitting on some takht like a shanshah on satwaan Aasman and ordering angles and jinns around to do stuff. I mean if you can believe in these ridiculous religious concepts, you can believe in any thing! But then that is what religious beliefs are; Just beliefs!

Ana,

Since you have come in the debate which I really don’t want have with this comedian, let me add a few lines here.

I have not introduced some new concept and there is plenty of material available on the subject.

Anyway, here is a little something to ponder. From Wiki but I am pretty sure that is what Muslim belief is.

“In Basic Islamic Teachings, Allah created three intelligent races. Angels, Jinns and Humans - of which the latter two have been granted 'free will' to choose between good and evil.
Iblis was of the jinn race (a supernatural equivalent to Man) and was a devoted servant of Allah. He attained a very high status and was brought close with the Angels. Allah knew Iblis harbored ill intentions, however, and this was the reason for his name, Iblis (meaning "desperate").
The Angels do not have free will and simply do not sin because they were not granted the freedom by God to disobey. When Allah created Adam The First Human, He commanded all the Angels and Jinn to prostrate to him as was termed "the Best of Creation". All the Angels and Jinn did so, except Iblis, who refused to obey.

“And We created you (humans), then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who made prostration. He (Allah) said: "What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee?" (Iblis) said: "I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud". Qur'an 7:11-12”

Amardeep Singh of Sepia Mutiny has an interesting post on this issue on his blog which certainly also refers to Genesis and Isaiah

“The creation of Shaitan in the Quran is a little different from the creation of Satan in Genesis and Isaiah. In the Quran (and I should confess I am no scholar), the most direct verse I can find is 7:11 (I have quoted this above already. HP)

Read his post I think you will like it.
http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2004/05/satan-and-shaitan-empires-of-liquid.htm l

Excerpt :
Milton: Knowledge, Rational Choice
“The Shaitan of the Quran and Isaiah are interesting, but the versions of Satan that resonate most with me are the two paradigmatic modern versions -- the Mephistopheles of the Faustus myth (interesting in both Christopher Marlowe's Faustus and Goethe's Faust), and the Satan of John Milton's Paradise Lost. Let me quote a long but rewarding passage from Milton's Paradise Lost Book IX:”

#415
Shaitan deserves our respect and admiration.

The Muslims believe when God created Adam, he wanted the Angels to bow before him. All complied but one and the closest Angel to God, now known as Shaitan, said No! With that simple No, he became an equal of God and now the entire corps of God’s prophets had only one job and that was to tell people how bad the Shaitan was!

I am not certain what HP is being asked to prove here. This is not a verbatim quote from the Holy Book, it is a statement of interpretation. Or (mis)interpretation as some might think.

It reminds me of Milton's Paradise Lost, a text where one can read the political in the biblical story (in this scenario) I do not know if HP has actually read Milton,but that is what I thought of when I read about the power of no.

I would not recommend putting Milton aside personally. I would recommend patience though. . .

Re: # 410

"ECONOMICS OF RELIGIOUS MILITANCY"

You have touched a very important subject. We all know how the war machine in west drives their foreign policy.
In the same way the mullahs have devised religious militancy and Jehad as a means to capture means of production and relations of production.
But all this can be traced back to the Profit , who first showed the way to establish kingdoms and temporal power through a sophisticated use of theology!!

Re: # 412

Sure, no more posts after THIS!

Why should I prove anything when some effort on your part will do that for me! But then you must pick up God's Book and put down whatever else you've been reading.

Until we meet again, its good-bye Mr. HP.

#411 Posted by tahir

Can't find anything to prove me wrong?
I said I made a statement. where did I say it was a slip of my tongue or any thing else. I don't need to provide any reference to any statement I make. So prove my statement wrong!
No more posts on this subject unless you prove that I made a wrong statement!

Gt,
I will respond to your post on PH thread!

Re: # 405

Ah! Finally Mr. H.P!

I asked you to quote the 'source' and now you ask me instead to prove you wrong about something that slipped off your tongue!

Surely you read THAT somewhere, WIRED magazine perhaps, ESQUIRE maybe. Come, come...what's the truth? And when you do reveal it, please clearly indicate which translation of God's Book have you read?

Fondest regards.

For Military led/influenced regimes everything flows from a security perspective. All elements of National Power have to be one way or the other linked with security. This is where everything went wrong. I am introducing a new term.
ECONOMICS OF RELIGIOUS MILITANCY
More of it later.
Cheerios

HP,

We have diverged from the main issue by quite a bit here on this board. Let us get back and start from scratch. Below I present my views based on what I have learnt from your article and interacts.

Before the dictator there was NS. A bit drunk on the power invested in him, he set about doing what he perceived to be good things. Along the process he did try to shake up institutions which brought about hurdles to what he thought was the right thing to do. One such institution was the army. Let us recall that the premise of the coup was "corruption". A very secular issue. Kargil, Kashmir etc. were also used. The very fact that "corruption" was used as the pretext, implied that the masses were more concerned about economic issues rather than religious or nationalistic issues. In any case, this feature of the coup is highly consistent with your characterization of the Pakistani polity as secular.

NS should be given a lot of credit for "secularizing" Pakistan. It was during his reign that the banias started flexing their muscles. The fight over resources had started. To weaken the army, Kashmir, jihad etc. had to be made non-issues! Two significant devises used by NS to dampen the "need" for a powerful army were the atomic explosions and getting Vajpayee over to Pakistan. The army readily understood what this meant. So the coup was promptly followed by rekindling the Kashmir issue (on the Afghan front there was no major changes). Looking back, I now understand why the Kashmir issue was dealt with so "publicly" (as opposed to NS's backdoor negotiations). Of course, Kargil helped a lot. So your thesis is right on the dot.

Following the coup, Kashmir and Afghanistan had to be kept intact. The "jihadi" proxies were nutured and let loose. Things worked very well as the Pakistani masses were brought back to the issues of national security and religious duty. I have to say that the Americans seemed quite happy with the arrangement. And then 9/11 happened, a U-turn on policy was forced upon, threatning a split in the army heirarchy. A very quick change in focus was brought about. The economy became the main issue with side issues like "enlightened moderation" and what not.

The focus on the economy in a globalized world required that the "jihadi" proxies had to be weakened. Reading the situation well some proxies, perhaps with splinters from the army, broke loose. The "religion under threat" factor was revived. But this time the threat was from "outside", instead of internal threats like ahmedis etc. The American policy in Afghanistan and Iraq also did not help. Maybe, as Asadi says, it was congruent to the American policy of setting up bases.

So where are we now? NS is back with a bang. The banias (not the English speaking stock market -real estate types) can again smell their part of the pie. But what will neutralize the "religion under threat" issue? There are no more "Islamic" bombs to explode! Kashmir, in my opinion, cannot help either as there is a possibility of the "jihadis" becomming more power. The Indians can help perhaps by concluding a treaty on Siachen in quick time. But, I believe, they won't do so and even if they do it may be too little too late. So I am quite stumped. But maybe NS isn't. BB would have gone to straight war .... but that is not the bania way.



In

It is wrong to generalise the pakistanis as stupid based on their interacts ion chowk

Here is a realist pakistani. from dawn of today

Indian PM’s visit to China


INDIAN Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to China with a strong determination to settle all border disputes and open a new chapter in Indo-China relationship will have far-reaching consequences and may change the political landscape across Asia.

The entire spectrum of Indian political and business leadership has unanimously endorsed this major shift in policy and anxiously awaits seizing this historic opportunity.

Good fortune does not end for India here as the offer of British prime minister to include India in the list of European Union is a great moral victory for India.

In contrast, Pakistan is being accused of political turmoil and dangerous region, despite joining hands for war on terror and coming as a frontline state against terrorism.

On the contrary, we are projected as the failed nuclear state by the same forces for which we are engaged in war against terror. Pakistan’s position is completely isolated and looks like a hapless spectator.

The recent turmoil and disorder in our society speaks volumes of the entire scenario, where one-man show is run by the man who still considers himself as an important international player in the world.

QAZI NAZIM NAEEM
Karachi

GT,

(Right, so why wasnt it changed by the BJP, Janata party etc.)

Very simple. Years of the license-quota-permit raaj created vested interests.

(the IIm and IIT types are subsidized by the beggar who squats on railway tracks ... )

Lest you misunderstand me, I am not against the beggar, (actualy more often it is the hard working migrant worker) who squats on the railway track, I am against the people who put in place and are perpetuating a system which forces people to squat.

Regards

Majumdar babu,

Right, so why wasnt it changed by the BJP, Janata party etc. The point that I am making is that it is not socialism, capitalism etc. Political power is not decentralized and anyone in power (you, me etc.) would do the same. Decentralization will not come on its own. The unwashed have to snatch more and more power for themselves. I would prefer that this happens through a democratic, peaceful process. But I can understand people resorting to violent tactics ... try democratic process in front of the Ranbir Sena. I had a friend running an NGO who was shot in front of his family by these thugs.

Anyway, I think you and me broadly agree .... the IIm and IIT types are subsidized by the beggar who squats on railway tracks ... he pays sales tax on the bidi he smokes. We often are ashamed of the wrong things!

#389 Posted by tahir on March 10, 2008 10:27:04 pm
Pleae answer #256 HP sahib!
Hello....

I made a statement, it is up to you to prove me wrong!

GT,

(While property rights are increasingly made available to a few, do ponder why "property rights on land" is not made available to the masses. )

Absolutely correct. But you must go back into the history of land tenure in India. The Brits introduced rent control in 1940s to ensure cheap accomodation for Allied troops stationed in India. But JLN and his govt didn't remove the same plus introduced the Land Ceiling Act. Which meant two things:

First, there was no incentive for landlords to invest in property for rental purpose which cud have given cheap accomodation to people, including workers.
Second, huge amounts of land got locked up in litigation which affected supply and allowed some existing landholders to keep prices inflated.

In short, Nehruvian Stalinism and its continued legacy is one of the causes of squatting.

Regards

HP #: "Not so fast!"

..i think, in present day terms, the civility of a country is described by how it treats its own citizens and what kind of justice and human development it provides to them.....

.....it doesn't get calculated by how much violence it commits against other countries......this should be included, but it isn't......

invariably, the countries that have the strongest and most fair domestic systems, will become the most powerful......and will, more than likely, excercise that power against others, to ensure their own high domestic living standards.....

.....the usa is a country that everyone wants to migrate to......it is a great place to live....yet it is one of the biggest killing machines in the world; if not the biggest.......the number of people it has killed grealy outnumbers the people killed by any group of terrorist organizations.....in fact, the usa has killed more civilians than all the terorrist organizations, of the past century combined.....

the only difference is that the usa has been able to set up a successful and generally fair domestic system.......while the terrorist organizations have not been able to achieve that.......hence one is recognized as civil; the other as uncivil......

if pakistan can set up a civilan govt. successfully after these elections, all of a sudden, it will be considered a more civil country than before.......even if it changes nothing else......

Majumdar babu,

Thanks for the correction. I read with interest your comments on the on goings near Railway tracks in India. Quite an eyesore isin't it? It is also convinient to blame it on x, y and z.

Majumdar babu, do reflect sometime on "India Shining", "introduction of free markets" etc. While property rights are increasingly made available to a few, do ponder why "property rights on land" is not made available to the masses. Yes, these things are not "seen", but could it be the case that they are more embarassing? Could it be just possible that we are being subsidized by (or we are stealing from) those guys who we see relieving themselves on railway tracks? Could it be that the "protection" enjoyed by the Tatas and Birlas are now trickling down to us and hence everything is ship-shape? Is it remotely possible? Are we ashamed of this?

Kind regards,

GT.

Re: # 399

I only wish they'd know that it is the brain that is meant to do the thinking!

Re: # 398

Jay ji,

Jehad has ALL to do with banditry that is called Islamic income-redistribution. There is one fifth part for the Allah, his Prophet and all his gundaas.

Jayp,

(the jihadis are well endowed)

All Pakis are very well-endowed.

Regards

Success of pak policy,

Pakistan hoped that by sending in the jihadis to kashmir, indian troops will be restricted to the barracks while the jihadis rule the streets.

Finally that approach has succeded in NWFP. The generals have ordered the troops to be in the forts for fear that they will go out and surrender to the jihadis or slaughtered by them. The war in NWFP is fought bt the helicopters and predators.

With the latest bombings, the pak troops are refusing to come out in the city streets, the soldiers have already been ordered not come out in their military uniforms. At last the streets are left to the jihadis.

With the number of roberies increasing dramatically, the jihadis are well endowed, at last there is some sort of wealth re-distribution in pakistan. Jihad is good for the abdul pakis.

Masadi sahib,

Re: 396

Very true. And that's why I have put up a thread "Sau chuhey kha kar..." on UP!!!

Regards

Majumdar writes "Masadi sahib,

This should warm your heart!!!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008311story_11-3-2 008_pg1_2

Kissinger advises US not to manipulate Pakistan’s politics"


Maj mian, this is the same Kissinger that made an "example" of ZAB through the Pakistan Army. TO understand where he's coming from note as I mentioned earlier that about the two types among the US elite that bicker often enough, the "sophisticated and the shock troops" or let me rephrase the hypocrites and the hawks, this person belongs to the "hawks", even though both share similar motives the hypocrites (sophisticated) ones pass the democracy buck and legitimize the military through that avenue, the hawks don't even want the stop-gap, his comments reflect merely the desire to let the Pakistan Army have its barbaric go, and so his comments are directed at the hypocrites (sophisticated) members who sloganize democracy just to have smooth transitions to military rule...the guy is a first rate sob.

Who would put back the Islami Jinn in the bottle????
Is it possible anymore??

How can people dare talk against Jehad???


Suicide bomber kills 40 at tribal peace meet in Pak
2 Mar 2008, 1651 hrs IST,AP
Print Save EMail Write to Editor
PESHAWAR: A suicide bomber blew himself up at a peace meeting of tribal elders in northwestern Pakistan on Sunday, killing at least 40 people and wounding more than 100, witnesses and officials said.

Thousands of people were attending the meeting when the blast took place, Interior Ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema told state-run Pakistan Television .

Re: # 369

hamid mia,

why not hold referendum in Pakistan whether Baloochistanis want to live with Punjabis.
Or for that matter Sindhis want to live with Punjabi....
Or Mohajirs ..... or The Talibs.

or Whether Shias want to live with Sunnis.....

or whether Muslims in America want to live with the White Christian guys....

come on.....the nuisance value of questions of "difference" is enormous.........

Why not have a referendum in America if they want Pakis around or not - doodh ka doodh paani ka paani ho jayega!!!

Masadi sahib,

This should warm your heart!!!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20083\11\story_11-3-2 008_pg1_2

Kissinger advises US not to manipulate Pakistan’s politics

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: Henry Kissinger has called on US leadership to focus on international security objectives in dealing with an emerging Pakistani leadership.

According to the former US foreign policy wizard, “At this point, any attempt to manipulate the political process that we have urged is likely to backfire. A wise policy must recognise that the internal structure of Pakistani politics is essentially out of control of American political decision-making. Construction of a centrist coalition is a commendable goal, but the conditions for it can only be nurtured by Pakistani political forces and, in the absence of a centre, require patience over a period of time.”

In an op-ed piece carried by Washington Post on Monday, Kissinger writes, “Our democratic principles should be clearly conveyed, but we should have learned by now that the evolution of the immediate political process is beyond our reach. Common approaches on the security issues are necessary, including an end of ambiguity towards terrorist enclaves.” He notes that for most of its history, Pakistani leaders have acted on the principle that good relations with the US were in Pakistan’s national interest. He adds, “A strategic consensus remains imperative. If that effort fails, many countries will be affected, and, perhaps more immediately, Pakistan’s stability should not be viewed as an exclusively American challenge.” He also calls for reconciling “ambivalent attitudes at home”, but warns that the two objectives many only be attainable “on different time scales.”

Regards

#386

do you mean to say that western domination will go on for ever ?
I don’t think so

numbres don’t lie… It is for each one to interpret how he he wants it. Only by looking at historical numbers .. India can get the confidence to gain the rightful place at the top.
With US entering a recession… It is China and Inida which are providing most of the global Growth.

Amin sahib,

Re: 390

It's just harmless timepass.

Regards

"criticism for criticisms's sake , jugglery of words" this is the essence of many interacts on CHOWK.

Pleae answer #256 HP sahib!
Hello....

Masadi sahib,

Very unfortunate. Looks like 20 people were killed and scores injured. May God give peace to the departed's souls and speedy recovery to the injured.

Regards

Asadi,
I just read that in Jang!

#384
"In 1500 CE India was contributing roughly 25% of the world GDP. It started declining slightly under the Islamic colonial rule…"

Only naive believe in stupid studies like this. Analyze the numbers and the reason for the so called 25%. Then international trade was minimal and the economies were agrarian. India being a vast agricultural economy and plenty of population or hands to work in the fields, perhaps had those kinds of numbers but that does not mean that India was a rich country. It was still a poor country! Once the industrialization took over those numbers dropped and had no relevancy. Copying some ridiculous numbers from some idiotic study, don't make the whole truth!

There were two bomb explosions in Lahore today. One near Regal Chowk targeting the FIA building, the other in Model Town at some advertising agency office. Authorities fear heavy casualties especially at the FIA building which as I hear was reduced to rubble

#380
Two world wars had one good thing coming out of them…..to bring end to the 500 years of crippling colonial rule.

Angus Maddison has studied the comparative GDPs of different nations. In 1500 CE India was contributing roughly 25% of the world GDP. It started declining slightly under the Islamic colonial rule… but declined dramaticaly under the european colonial rule. By 1947… india contributed only abt 3% of world GDP…. Gandhi / nehru / indira inherited such a weak economy. Today India is on the upswing… thanks to the foundation laid during the early years sfter independenec.

#381

"They have learnt their lessons and moved on in a big way."

Not so fast! the US, British and the NATO armies from the Europe are still in Iraq and Afghanistan and are involved in fighting. Vietnam is not an ancient history yet. You perhaps drink so much koolaid that you can only find fault with the poor browns, black and yellow.

Look around you the world is a different place!
Pakistan and India will become friends when the time is right until then this pacifism does not impress many!

HP sain,

Where have I bashed India. I have merely expressed my disappointment at India's failures and tried to locate (one of the more important) source of the same.

Regards

Re: # 380

They have learnt their lessons and moved on in a big way. If you want to be stuck in a rut for the rest of your lives, fine. Problem is you are insisting on taking the rest of us with you.

That is the perspective mate.

BTW; how many wars have YOU personally lived through?

Why does everyone insists on having THIRE OWN experiences of war to learn any lessons!

HP, you wnat to die for some cause and kill someone like-minded on the opposing side in the process, the two of you have my blessings to do so; leave the rest of us alone!

#378 Posted by akcheema
Cheema sahib the most enlightened nations of their era fought two devastating wars with in a span of 30 years. what do you think of that? Irony is that after killing millions of their own and others, they are still the most civilized and enlightened nations in the world.

On top of that they don't like to even hear about that and still call people like you, barbarian! everything should be looked at in the right perspective!

Pacifism is a misplaced emotion and no pacifist had ever been recognized as the world leader.
To fight and war is human!

#374 Posted by jang
#373 Posted by jang
#375 Posted by majumdar
#377 Posted by majumdar

Any particular reason for this India bashing?

Re: # 377

I know what you mean; I have had similar frustrations with my side but this madness doesn't seem to want to stop. (Please raed my interact # 260)

I don't see any other way out, do you?

These "territorial" disputes will have to stop and we'd need to learn to move on, if not for us than for our next generation. Why is it so difficult to get this concept across?.....The biggest "achievements" of the two countries are related to being "nuclear"; shameful! Neither has the maturity to look after such arsenal; Pakistan probably a lot worse than India.

The disputes such as the Argentinians and the Falklands mentioned before, what did they get out of it in the end? Absolutely nothing. Hong Kong etc went to China but not through warfare. Gibralter, with the EU now, becomes less and less significant as an issue.

Cheema sahib,

if 70% of your people were c***ping by the railways side 60 years after freedom, you wudn't think very differently.

Regards

Re: # 375

C'mon guys, they weren't that bad.

Jang,

Re: 373/374

Very well said. The Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist bigoted freak, his chamcha (whom he appointed as PM) and the chamcha's daughter all did India in.

Regards

what i mean is india has the fattest azz in the area but does not pull its weight economically. its infra sucks, its poverty makes sub-sahara and newyorleons look good, its state is weak and its politics (all 4, 5 or six columns) rotten. until it gets its act together, there is no hope for the region.

india has failed miserably ECONOMICALLy and therfore imposing a legitimate hegemony on the region of south asia. for that india and nehruvians should apologize to all of us.

GT,

(In the Narsimha Rao govt. they had 3, yes three, seats in the Parliament. The Rath Jatra is followed by Babri Masjid and in the next election BJP forms the govt!!!)

Minor correction. The BJP was reduced to 2 LS seats in 1984 when Rajiv Gandhi got his mandate (PVNR hapened in 1991). They got 88 in 1989 in partial alliance with JD- then Rath Yatra then 1991 elections where they got 119. Babri followed in Dec 1992 and in 1996 they became the largest political party in LS.

Regards

#255 Zeemax you old fool!

Are you the shady character who got chowk to dock my compensation, too?!

And why are you hiding in that koap-bhawan of the "chowk connect" sandaas?!

Re: # 369

hamid mia,

why not hold referendum in Pakistan whether Baloochistanis want to live with Punjabis.
Or for that matter Sindhis want to live with Punjabi....
Or Mohajirs ..... or The Talibs.

or Whether Shias want to live with Sunnis.....

or whether Muslims in America want to live with the White Christian guys....

come on.....the nuisance value of questions of "difference" is enormous.........

Why not have a referendum in America if they want Pakis around or not - doodh ka doodh paani ka paani ho jayega!!!

Re: # 367

laddu mian,

.... look, there is nothing wrong with defending your territorial integrity - argentina went to war with the uk over a few sheep on a rock in the middle of the ocean ..... why don't we just hold a referendum in kashmir - all of it - and see what the kashmiris want ....if you win the laddus are on me ..... does that sound fair ?

Re: # 359

"Laddu, I am reading the document you mentioned; listen to Hamidm Sahib, our kids grow up learning more from Bollywood than they ever do from textbooks!"

Great Cheemaji!1 I would request rest of the the chowkis (including Indian) to read this report.

The stereo-types of a 'cunning' Hindu who bows to idols kept in small dingy temples is very much subtly implanted in the minds of Pakistani children very early.

The Kashmir problem is actually a communal problem- that is why no Indian wants to touch it because every peace loving indian considers the issue of TNT settled way back in 1947.

No Indian hindu or a muslim wants to open up the communally vile and perverted issue of TNT any more.

Re: # 331

"lo kar lo baat...gaand me dum nahi, hum kisi se kum nahi...

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD186508:

Never underestimate the nuisance of Quranic programming. Once Pakis feel better their "Jazba-e-Jehad" is going to increase.

Heck, even hamidm wants to 'settle' the kashmir issue!!!

hamidm2, won't agree with those labels, or with "everone who prays more than twice a year" thing, but that argument seems to be right. :)

-------------

sorry cheema ji, had/have no intention of ignoring what you wrote. Just don't know how to respond to those words...

Goodnight everyone, Catch you all later.

Re: # 364

kaal chakri,

.... sorry, i didn't mean to mislead you .... this group of crazies is small at present, but it has a lot of potential emotionally disturbed sympathizers who can be mobilized very quickly ..... these include basically everyone who prays more than twice a year ..... zeemax could be one of them ...... it is like a virus that can kill you but it can also be managed as a chronic condition ......

hamdim2, I am personally more inclined to be with zee on this matter. I think, in spending too much time worrying about how large or small a 'political base' different groups have we will miss a lot. Sheer numbers, in my view at least, are largely an irrelevant construct. But if by political base one doesn't mean just numbers, then we have some meat there.

GT,

This is strongest opposition to LMP, IMO:

http://www.urdupages.com/showthread.php?t=52438

"Ek Muslim hone key Naate yeh hum sab chahhte hen key sharyat nafi zho..... magar yoon zabardsati Sharyat to nafiz na hogi ulta ese bhayanak Asraat samne ayengey jo Alam Islam aur pakistan key lye Tabah kun sabit ho sakte hen.... Talbanization se sirf Afghanistan jesa hi haal ho sakta hey.....Hosh se kaam lijye.... naake josh se... kyunke yeh sharpasand anasir hamare jazbaat se khelna khoob jante hen.... We r muslims not toys... aur agar dil key bajaye dimagh se sochen to samjh ajayegi key yeh sab kis ka drama hey ....America chahta hi yehi hey key... pakistan main talbanization ko tasweer key tor per pesh karke pakistan ki Atomic power ko khatam kar sake kya inhen pakistan ka darul khilafa hi mila tha yeh sab karne key lye ... just think Allah hamien in sab sazishon se mehfooz rakhe (Aameen)..!!"

Hamid:

"....the real leadership will emerge if this movement gathers steam and it will be from the nawaiwaqt crowd, not the mullahs ..."

Darn. This is just the opposite of what Kaal is saying. You are right, I am caught up in more than underwear ! .....

Re: # 358

GT, HP and ghan chakri,

..... you guys are getting all caught up in your underpants trying to understand the dynamics of the lmp party ....it is very simple

........ the lmp party is a relatively small, but very powerful group of people who cut aross communal and economic lines ... not only that, they have wealthy financiers in far away bedouin lands ...... on the surface it is led by small time mullahs from the boondocks of pakistan - like those two brothers and maulana radio - but they have supporters in the military, the business world, the nawaiwaqt crowd and students driven by horomones and fear of blindness if they masturbate ......the real leadership will emerge if this movement gathers steam and it will be from the nawaiwaqt crowd, not the mullahs .......

........ now, do you want me to explain why after the spin off of bangladesh there is no real 'communal' problem in pakistan ?

Kaal,

"Nor does it mean that Muslims have to pay any price now ...."

You mean, they should have paid the price earlier?

"but now the right wing ....may be beginning to see them as a threat."

Hmmm. Had it not been for HP's post, I would have agreed. But now I am a bit more confused than I usually am.

GT, on your second point, if you recall, I have jokingly argued that if you take non-Muslims away, then even if there were just two Muslims left, one would be promptly declared a non-Muslim/Murtid or whatever. That's also hinted at in the sense of "manufacturing communal problems" - mirzai/shia-sunni etc.

On point one, I suspect, there wasn't any real opposition to LMP up until now, but now the right wing (the only ones who count) may be beginning to see them as a threat. So that's where new opposition to LMP may arise - people who are (unfairly) scared of the Taliban bugbear and want to beat India in economic progress.

On your last point, you may be right. It just seems a lousy way to solve a problem by leaving it fully intact within India. This is not to take any credit away from anyone. Nor does it mean that Muslims have to pay any price now for the mistake made by Gandhi and Nehru.

Re: # 353

Eklavya, just exactly what are you saying? What communal problems did Pakistan solve at partition that India didn't? The country split up in two for crying out loud in 1971! May be that is one way to solve "inter-communal" problems.

Pakistan is the western 2/3 of my homeland Punjab; rest has tagged along for as long as it did by the grace of the almighty (and I use this phrase advisedly!). Solve THAT INTER-COMMUNAL problem!

Eklavya, your language is more difficult to decipher than "our holy book"; you should run for parliament! or declare prophethood!

As for Kashmir, like I said before, it should be up to the Kashmiris; both Pakistan and India should respect that. Enough of this madness!

Laddu, I am reading the document you mentioned; listen to Hamidm Sahib, our kids grow up learning more from Bollywood than they ever do from textbooks!

Kaal,

I will come to the Gandhi-Nehru issue later on, but first let me come to the communalism/fundamentalism distinction. I am yet to internalize it.

1. If communalism is ephimeral in Pakistan then it is indeed the case that the LMP does not have a "comparitive advantage" within Pakistan. At least not in terms of "religion". But then, neither should it have a "comparative disadvantage" in terms of religion. The question then arises as to whether there is any opposition to the LMP at all, and if so then who are these opponents?

2. If there are any opponents to the LMP, then can the divide between them and the LMP be the same as that of a communal divide even though the terminology is surely different? Do these groups fundamentally differ in some (perhaps small but important) set of ideology? If so, then could the difference be communaly cast as say the difference between "murtids and non-murtids", "secular vs. non-secular" etc. Are such "differences" ephimeral in time?

3. Do not blame Gandhi/Nehru. The Muslims in what came to be known as India were larger in number and politically stronger than the Hindus in what is now Bangladesh and Pakistan (economically the Hindus might have been better off). So do not take away credit from Indian Muslims. This is like Naqsh saying that the Muslims could have converted every Hindu, during their rule, if they so wanted. Indian Muslims are politically strong, but not enough. They will be better off in the future and for that they do not require the help of Gandhi/Nehru you or me.

"currently the fundamentalist don't have a large or even small political base in the country!"

That's a fair point. Both you and tahmedji have repeatedly made it, and it may be quite true.

Two points people have made (1) political groups need not always have large base to be able to push their agenda forward, (2) sometimes political situation can quickly change (although that risk is much higher in India, given our communal problems).

At this point in time, you may be right: neither of the above may pose present and immediate danger for Pakistan...

#353 Posted by Eklavya

Too many assumptions...Saying that political forces fundamentalists or not, would stop doing politics is irrational. They will continue to create issues to stay in contention but that does not change the fact that currently the fundamentalist don't have a large or even small political base in the country!

What is happening in Pakistan is of interest to Pakistanis but outsiders care about how Pakistan relates to the rest of the wrold. We don't yet know how far, and in what direction, that would change.

Now, where is my applause? Even a tiny one would do. :)

Ejlavya, the day you could convey your thoughts in clear and concise language, is the day we can all join you in your one-handed applause

GT,

HP's point about communalism is an important one. In fact, that is the only reason I keep abusing Gandhi and Nehru - they deliberately did not solve the problem of internal communalism the way Pakistan did.

Anyway, with Pakistan's problem of internal communalism solved for good and effectively, LMP should actually have very little to play with. One might expect them to be totally neutered in Pakistan.

Yet, that may not tell the full story. Pakistan's internal challenges have not always been a factor of her internal situation alone, but also of her external commitments. And in solving internal communal problem, Pakistan acquired a communal nationhood as a whole. Her external relations and commitments became automatically communalized. And that has been one factor feeding LMP, in various directions.

Will Pakistan move away from its communal identity, commitments, and goals? It's hard to say for outsiders, but for outsiders, that is what is of interest.

(Just out of curiosity, although this is not of much interest to outsiders, internally, in making clear communal choices, Pakistan could have helped feed the forces that would later manufacture new (pseudo?) communal problems, - whether it was the issue of mirzais or of shia-sunni rift.)

Hamid,
If I remember correctly I saw NS saying he wants a strong PM who is not wired. He really used the word 'wired' and made gestures to imply what he meant! You can watch the press conference on pkpolitics.com.
That disqualifies Zaradri. He is wired!

"You think someone who has spent his entire adult life defending Pakistan and the past eight years trying to put democracy back on track wants to see the government fail and the country return to political anarchy?"

All he will try and work another 8 years to bring the democracy! For crying out loud, he is asking the political parties to not do politics as that is only his right to do politics!

Re: # 346 Posted by hamidm2 on March 10, 2008 1:24:19 pm

[...... i still think musharraf has an ace in the hole and it is not 52-B........ what the heck is it?.... it is killing me?]

It is General Kiyani, of course.

hamidm: relax. you never said anything bad about anyone, remember (except the poor abdul). you were hedging your bets, while fools like me rant about stupid things like putting an end to dictatorship and the kidnappings of pakistanis.

hamidm: the "ace" in the hole is mush himself. only, no one taught him that when you are in a hole the first thing to do is to stop digging yourself deeper..

tahmed,

... does this sound like a man in trouble ?

The atmosphere was informal, at times interrupted with light banter and laughter as Mr. Musharraf sat with several aides during interview.

Casually dressed in an open-collar shirt, Mr. Musharraf scoffed at speculation in the press that he would attempt to derail the results of Feb. 18 elections by using his constitutional powers to dismiss parliament, or not call parliament into session.

"You think someone who has spent his entire adult life defending Pakistan and the past eight years trying to put democracy back on track wants to see the government fail and the country return to political anarchy?

"No. I'm committed to making this work."

...... i am almost at the point that i want to take back all the bad stuff i said about musharraf - the man is scary ! ........... booooo !

Re: # 344

but now he doesn't seem to have much of a choice - amin fahim has been outed as a 'collaborator' and he really can't have a punjabi pm ....... so what are his choices?

...... i still think musharraf has an ace in the hole and it is not 52-B........ what the heck is it?.... it is killing me?

kissinger reads the writing on the wall for the benefit of the slow-learners - democracy in pakistan is a step in the right direction, matters are now in pakistani hands anyway, and mush's tush is basically toast. (article in WP today).

pssst hamidm - he is a white man and showers daily. so he must be right.

.... what did i tell you a couple of days ago ? ......... asif zardari will be pm .... baat khatam, paisa hazam !

Hamid, I have never doubted your political wisdom! But I think he would have a hard time explaining what he wants after he gets in the PM house such as assigning bedroom to horses or the Tanga. Thats why he is trying to stay away from it.

#341 Posted by GT

cont. ....

But something still seems to be missing and I can't get it.

Re: # 338

bubba,

.... they were all a bunch of alcoholics .... do you think anyone who was sober would dig a ditch and then kill innocent people to fill it ?

#336 Posted by HP:

You are right! Now, I see how by mixing communalism and fundamentalism, I was failing to understand a key difference between the politics of India and Pakistan. In India fundamentalism thrives on communalism (I actually call it tribalism). This is because sharp differences between communities exist and are made to persist. I see that this is not necessarily so in Pakistan. (Now I recall that this point has been made by other interactors too in the past).

This has been a valuable lesson.

Thanks.

hp,

.... what did i tell you a couple of days ago ? ......... asif zardari will be pm .... baat khatam, paisa hazam !

.... however, musharraf might stall this thing for a couple of weeks to see if he can get the ppp to dump pml-n ....... an accord made in murree is not worth the paper it is written on (altitude makes people delirious).... this is better than 'lost' !

Apropos # 336

Actually CJ had begun to pick on issues starting January of 2007, such as the steel mills or just the general law and order situation. The Missing person issue stuck big time so he stayed with that. Both the army and the US did not like it. Some still contend that it was the Steel mills issue that caused the rift between the Generals and the CJ!

Re: # 299 Posted by hamidm2 on March 10, 2008 8:36:03 am

hamid mian, are you sure?

{build one bar for every fifty mosques in pakistan (even with this ratio we will have a bar at every corner)}

So, what is its market? In terms of dollars, please. After maghrib, some people could show up there? After all is it not true that Salman Faras was a consumate alcoholic?

I just don't get this Pakistani attitude against bars? Such a big part of an economy is just not there.

re: tahmed#335
As I said earlier, its big business now. It isn’t going away any time soon.

Regards,

Faruk

#325 Posted by GT
“Fundamentalism always existed and still exists in India. It was, and still is, denied. The LMP exists in Pakistan, perhaps not as a political entity today (I do not want to go into the debate of Islam being political etc). But its transformation into a credible political entity may be extremely quick. Recall that the LSM was triggered by the CJ's firing, and the CJ was fired because he seemed to be lax on the LMP.”

You are mixing up many issues. Every issue really needs to be handled separately. The classical fundamentalism in India is probably confined to some hard core parties such as the RSS then they make alliances with parties like BJP which are in essence communal. So the communalism feeds off the fundamentalism or vice versa. You take the communal issue out; the fundamentalism in India would become a very small or perhaps just fringe group or groups.

The fundamentalism in Pakistan does not have any communal issue to work with. So they create ones. First the Qadiani issue which really was an attempt to communalize Pakistani Punjab for fundamentalist to get a political foothold. After that they got a boost from the afghan war and now the GWOT.

However, the problem they face is that the qadianis are a small group and people don’t get impressed with the qadiani bad sob stories. The afghan war ended and now the GWOT is going out of business too. So while they get issues, they don’t have something to hold on to permanently and feed off that issue like the fundamentals do in India.

Religious fundamentalism can survive only when it has government sponsorship or its own economic constituency. While communalism creates an economic constituency by way of competing business or dominating business, the fundamentalism does not have that luxury.

Again the impact of both afghan wars is more or less regional. Main land is not impacted by it at a grassroots level. Sindhi and Baloch never touched any of those issues. Punjabis too are too far away from those issues even though the Punjabi middle class due to the army influence is attached to it. However, that still does not translate in to political support for fundamentalism in Punjab too.

Can an event drive the people to fundamentalism as you have alluded too? I doubt that. As you can see many major events have failed to translate into a consistent political support for the fundamentalism despite the fact that the army sponsored them throughout the last 8 years.

Please read my article again. The CJ did not happen in isolation. The movement after that appeared spontaneous but we will have to wait for a verdict on that. But initially, it was a bread and butter issue for the lawyers.

Lastly, The CJ clearly had shown sympathy for the Nawaiwaqt generation for picking up their cause of the missing persons, but we still don’t know whether he did it for political expediency or out of some genuine emotional connection to the issue!

Faruk #319 kashmir WAS in everyone's blood - while your pakistani friends merely talked about kashmir, i had an uncle who actually took his tanks across the LoC, by-passing concrete bunkers, flushing indian military out of chhamb (leaving behind not just tanks but also enough booze to keep hamidm happy for a lifetime), chased them over hill and dale and across the river tawi all the way to jaurian and then out of jaurian - and would have taken over the next indian military station at akhnoor (and thus cut off the only roadlink from india to kashmir) except for a minor problem (indians counterattacked pakistan proper). and he was the big hero for our entire family. so been there, tried that. didnt work.

but that was then..only fools keep on dueling over some issue for 60 years. entire families ruin themselves long after the original issue is forgotten. as a wise US judge once said, sometimes an unjust solution is better than no solution at all. now only those seeking to benefit by prolonging a conflict and with no concern for their nation - talk about "kashmir is in our blood".

re: HP # 324
“Faruk is actually Parsi. He tries to pass off as muslim”
Trust me, if you are not from Pakistan you would never even think of doing such a thing.
FYI I am a shia, but my mother is French and a practicing Christian.

Regards,

Faruk

what's this prophetboy?

Pakistan among 10 most unpopular countries in US: poll



By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, March 9: Pakistan and Afghanistan are among the 10 most unpopular countries in the United States despite their close ties to the US administration, says a recent survey by Gallup, USA.

Iran tops the list of nations that are viewed unfavourably in America. An overwhelming majority – 88 per cent – of respondents to this survey said they view Iran unfavourably while only 8 per cent said they viewed it favourably.

Of 22 countries rated in Gallup’s 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Britain, Germany, and Japan were viewed favourably by at least 80 per cent of Americans.

In some cases – Iran, Venezuela and North Korea – the popular perception endorsed the official policy as all these countries are also denigrated by the US administration. Besides Afghanistan and Pakistan, others on the unfavourable list are Saudi Arabia and Iraq. These countries are counted among America’s closest allies by the administration but do not enjoy a favourable image in the American public.

Pakistan is 6th on the list with 72 per cent respondents saying they see it unfavourably while 22 per cent viewed it favourably.

Afghanistan comes right after Pakistan with 73 per cent Americans saying they view it unfavourably while 21 per cent see it favourably.

Second on the negative list is North Korea with 82 per cent viewing it unfavourably and 12 per cent favourably.

The Palestinian Authority is third: 75 per cent view it unfavourably and 14 per cent favourably.

Iraq, where the United States is engaged in an apparently unwinnable war, is the 4th most unpopular nation in the United States: 77 per cent view it unfavourably and 20 per cent favourably.

Cuba did slightly better than both Pakistan and Afghanistan: 67 percent view it unfavourably and 27 per cent favourably.

Saudi Arabia is 8th on this list, with 61 per cent Americans viewing it unfavourably and 31 per cent favourably.

Venezuela is 9th, with 50 per cent viewing it unfavourably and 37 per cent favourably.

China is 10th, with 55 per cent viewing it unfavourably and 42 per cent favourably.

A total of 1,007 Americans – aged 18 and older – were interviewed for this survey, which has a margin of error of plus minus 3 per cent.

Not all respondents viewed the countries as favourably or unfavourably. A small minority remained neutral, saying that it had no views.

Canada came out as the most favoured nation with 92 per cent saying they view it favourably while 89 per cent favoured Britain, 82 per cent liked Germany and 80 per cent backed Japan.

Canada and Britain have topped Gallup’s country rankings each of the 12 times since 1989, although in most cases Canada has led Britain by a few percentage points.

The only other country to approach 90 per cent favourability over the years has been Australia. On each of the three occasions it was included in Gallup’s country list, including last year, it ranked just as high as Britain.

Following the top four, Israel receives a 71 per cent favourable rating, similar to the 69 per cent for both India and France. About 6 in 10 Americans have a favourable view of Egypt, South Korea, and Mexico.

Americans are about equally divided in their views of Russia and Kenya, with a fairly large percentage (21) having no opinion of Kenya.

Iran, North Korea, the Palestinian Authority, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Cuba are viewed more negatively than positively by a greater than 2-to-1 margin. Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and China have somewhat more moderately negative images.

Gallup finds some significant generational and partisan gaps in favourability toward some countries.

Israel, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq are all viewed more favourably by Republicans than by Democrats.

France, Mexico, China, Venezuela, and Cuba are all viewed more favourably by Democrats than by Republicans.

Two of the starkest demographic distinctions in survey ratings are age differences in perceptions of Russia and China.

About 6 in 10 young adults (those aged 18 to 34) have a favourable view of these countries, compared with no more than half of middle-aged adults and only about a third of those 55 and older.

Younger adults are also more likely than those 55 and older to have favourable views of France, Egypt, Mexico, Kenya, Venezuela, Cuba, the Palestinian Authority, North Korea, and Iran.

hamidm #328: i think you are going thru a midlife crisis, comparing yourself to your friends. your friend probably sent his son into the army because he is a duffer. while he may have hopes that 20 years from now he will become king of pakistan..or at least be in a position to jump red lights without fear of being stopped by a traffic cop..this is a linear projection based on increasingly obsolete assumptions.