The Deoband Declaration on Terrorism: Why Now?

Re: # 132

Manto,

Why is that the Muslim population is always ascending in India? It defies your logic?

Do you have an explanation for the vastly reduced Hindu population, since partition, in Pakistan?

ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.

Mian laddu,

Sipah Muhammad was formed a counter group to Deobandi terrorist group Sipah sahaba. You may enlighten me on the acts of terrorism carried out by Hezbollah ... And please military targets in a war are not innocent bystanders and civilians.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that any Muslim who follows the Quran or believes in Islam is a terrorist? In other words anyone who believes in Islam is automatically a terrorist?

The discussion has qualitatively gone beyond TNT now because TNT was general enough to include every shade of Muslim from Ismaili to Ahmadi to even the cultural Muslim who otherwise was an unbeliever..so the islamic theology was not even the point.

I am more interested now in understanding this argument that the only good Muslims according to you are people who give up belief in Islam altogether and the rest the majority one billion followers are all terrorists? I find this a rather bigoted and fascist line of reasoning.

In other words, the mask of secularism is off your face.

Urstruly,

There is no question about that.

Despite all the discrimination, Pakistani Ahmadis are more educated, socially upward mobile and enterprising not just in comparison to the Indian Ahmadis but most communities in South Asia.

But let's not even take that as the basic comparison. Let's compare Pakistani Ahmadis' lot with the Indian Muslims.

Over the last 33 years since Ahmadis were excommunicated and subject of increased legal discrimination, the number of Ahmadis killed as a result of some religiously motivated attack .. 50 odd.

The number of Indian Muslims killed in the riots in just one day in 2001 ... 2000 +.

Now that is a far more damning statistic than the kind of numbers certain chowkies spin.

A more interesting comparison would be of property destroyed. But I don't have the statistics on that. All I can say that the main Ahmaddiya mosque in Model Town the Bait ul Noor is right down the road from the office of Jamaat ud dawa (yes indians it is lashkar e taiba) and yet not once has there been any problem between the two establishments.Not that I trust those JD freaks but one must give credit where its due.

Generally the problem with Pakistan is our insistence on superfluous inanities like the bar on non-muslims as head of state and the hudood ordinance which has rarely come into play. Otherwise if examined objectively Pakistan is much more secular a society on the ground than India can be...except even the most devout and bigoted of Hindus in India speak of secularism with a forked tongue (as seen by idiots on chowk) and even the most secular and liberal of Pakistanis (much more secular and liberal in lifestyle most Hindus) is under misperception that secular is a bad word.

One of the people I know and regard on a social level is our friend Ijaz Gul. He is perhaps one of the most well established and well connected Pakistanis around. He is a christian. Meeting him you won't feel even an iota of difference between him and other upper middle class well educated Pakistanis.

People like him and my late father have lived in this country with dignity and honor. And they have educated their children well.

In comparison, Shabbana Azmi and her idiotic husband are nothing if not Muslims in India. That is their central focus in life...all else flows from their Muslimness and how convenient a token they can be. And then after emphasizing their Muslimness, the generous act of wearing a Bindi to prove that look Muslims are good Indians. That becomes their central concern in life.

Needless to say no Christian goes around in Pakistan with their shalwars tucked up.

#100 ISlamIslam


[I waited breathlessly for your "informed" view of geopolitics. Fortunately, I could start breathing again within seconds.]

Your ignorance is excusable. What is not so excusable is that although you are a well educated man, you never took the time to look past the usual conspiracy theories and made the effort to educate yourself.

Actually I made a mistake. I should not have gotten involved in an argument with you. The theory that the US is "allowing" countries like China and India to "rise" (kind of like a "Arise, Sir Knight") like puppets at the end of a string is so ridiculous and childish that I should have just not commeneted. One should pick the people you want to argue with. However, since I have already started, I'll discuss it this once.


[I guess that same "nobody" is "allowing" Cuba under Castro all sorts of growth opportunities.]

China and Cuba are not the same thing. China is one of the most militarily powerful countries in the world, with a veto in the UN. Cuba is just a large island. It is a foolish comparison.


[There was plenty of choice. Just like in the 1950s through the 1970s, it was Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, in the late 1980s, it could have been Indonesia or the Philippines instead of China, if it was economic rather than geopolitical considerations.]

Of course, I did say that there were geopolitical AND economic considerations - "The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice.".

I guess you never took the trouble to educate yourself on these issues. Here's a free primer:

After the disastrous failure of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in 1960 (which was designed to transform China from an agriculture-based economy to an industrial economy), party moderates like Deng Xiao Ping and Liu Shaoqui proposed economic reforms in 1961. But because of internal politics, Deng had to wait till 1971 to actually implement his reforms, many of which were suggested by his predecessors like Zhou Enlai (Four Modernizations).

One of the "modernizations" involved decentralization of policy-making - in allowing local provinces and municipalities to invest in any industry THEY considered profitable. The municipalites and provinces, being low on capital, naturally chose to invest in light manufacturing. This proved to be one of the major successes in China because it led to rapid export-led growth. In contrast, the investment in heavy manufacturing came from the Chinese banking system - which in turn got the capital from Chinese consumer deposits. Under Deng's reforms, the profits were not to be reallocated except through taxation - the revenues generated from exports in light manufacturing were re-invested in products of higher and higher degrees of technological sophistication.

THIS is what started the industrial revolution in China. NOT FDI.

Of course, FDI accelarated China's progress. But it came mostly in the form of private businessmen, including Chinese expatriates using their contacts to invite FDi to China - mostly from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan, but also from Europe and USA.

The proportion of FDI from various countries can be seen here (scroll down past page 25):

http://www.nber.org/confer/2007/cwt07/foley.pdf

(in fact, read the whole article)




[That (having known him) and $4.50 would get you a latte at the local Starbucks.]

You have the attitude down pat. Now if only you had some substance.



[If the US wants to destabilize a powerful country such as Russia, it is not going to be through through a tiny country half-way around the world from the Soviets. Outer Mongolia just wasn't an option even though your friend's daddy might have considered that very carefully. China's geography (long borders with the Soviet Union), military power (nuclear weapons and huge army) and willingness to take punishment in a war (Mao is quoted as saying that he was prepared to lose 400 million Chinese in a war) made it the choice of US... short of arming Japan with nuclear weapons. That was not an option since the US was trying to prevent the spread of nukes.]

Read up on the history of the industrial revolution in China, before you make simplistic and foolish arguments about the whole thing being a CIA plot.



[Yes, it is the "brilliance" of its software engineers that has allowed India to capture the world markets.]

No, it was the enterpreneural spirit of Indians at grassroots levels that has allowed India to capture the world markets.



[ Ninety percent of the frikking code coolies I have interviewed cannot tell me why operator overloading and inheritance are both needed in an object-oriented language. I am sure, if you are a code coolie, you don't know it either.]

Maybe they are stumped by the inanity of the question. It's like asking why a bicycle needs both the seat and the handlebar.



[I have found better code coolies in Russia, Romania, and even Uzbekistan. And they work for cheaper rates than Indians despite having a rigorous education as opposed to fake degrees from "universities" in Jharkhand or Andhra or the quota graduates of Tamil Nadu.]

Yes, but how many of them are there? And what kind of companies do they represent?



[I suppose that is why they are trading with Cuba, importing its sugar and exporting it basic things like automobiles. (For those clueless idiots on Chowk, such trade does not exist!)]

Again, a ridiculous comparison. The expatriate Cubans are a powerful voting block that can make or break elections at the State level in Florida, which is also a crucial state in Presidential elections. US politicians have no intention of committing suicide by listening to the handful of businessmen who want to trade with Cuba.


[The US could have slapped heavy duties on China-made goods if the US corporations were going to import from China.]

Cheap Chinese goods help the American consumer. It also hurts domestic industries, and exports from other countries to the US. The US has always had to walk the fine line between the two. The US has slapped duties on Chinese products many times in the past decade. It is a accelerator-and-brake scenario, where the US tries to walk the tightrope between the two.



[When did China join WTO? Look it up.]

2001. And your point is?



[How about GATT?]

Yes. How about it?



[The US could have banned investments in China. It could have banned travel to China like it does with Cuba. Mattel is NOT bigger than the US government. Even IBM is not bigger than the US government and had to get permission to sell off its Personal Computer division to Lenovo, a Chinese company. And China was NOT allowed to buy Unocal or 3Com Corporation.]

Today, the US and Chinese economies are so intertwined that the demise of one would harm the other profoundly. China has been propping up the US Economy by buying its Treasury bonds which is really a loan that the US has been using to finance it's ballooning budget deficits and to buy goods from China.

You can find umpteen articles about this all over the web. Read for a change.

If USA had "planned" the "rise" of China, then they could not have done a worse job for themselves.

It would be difficult to say who is the puppetmaster and who is the puppet.




[I await your next "informed view" of how the world works with bated breath. ]

You should. Because you are talking like a child.

"First of all there are no shiite terrorists. "

So, Hezbollahs do not commit terrorist acts?
And ins,t Sipah-e-Mohammed Pakistan (SMP) a Shia terrorist group in Pakistan?

"The Pakistani deobandis take their lead from the Indian deobandi leadership. Indian deobandi fatwas are perhaps the most retrogressive and backward in the world."

Interesting, because the latest Indian Deobandi declaration does not seem to be re-iterated by the so-called followers of Deoband in Pakistan madarassas.


"As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology."

You also agree that TNT is about muslim identity. I am yet to come across a "muslim" identity that does not involve the 5 pillars of Islam, the Islamic theology and its prescribed moral code of Sharia!!

Ref MantoLives #122

[As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology. If anything the Islamization of Pakistan is contrary to the basic spirit of the TNT which implied that a permanent majority should not by sheer numbers oppress permanent minorities, something which Pakistanis have been doing.]

Folks,

That dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani is right in stating that Pakistan was not conceived as an Islamic state by Jinnah-bhai.

Jinnah-bhai was interested in establishing a scientific country in certain portions of India that would be free from the superstitions of the Hindus. He tried his best to stay within a United India where Islamic Mathematics would be accepted by all, whereby 30% = 70%. Unfortunately for Jinnah-bhai, no mathematician nor politician came forward to accept this crucial axiom of Islamic Mathematics.

In fact, Jinnah-bhai had other theorems that would have shown that 1 is greater than 1 billion, etc., and essentially he was on a quest to prove that positive numbers are negative numbers. Since -30 is greater than -70, Jinnah-bhai's argument holds coherency when you apply this greatest discovery of Islamic Mathematics.

Jinnah-bhai realized that with Islamic Mathematics, in Pakistan the 10% minority would also have to be greater than the 90% Muslim population. This is proof of his secularism.

However, with the death of Jinnah-bhai, Pakistan veered from Scientific Islam and accepted that 90% is greater than 10%. In order to silence the supporters of Jinnah-bhai, they first reduced the 10% to 3% and adopted Western Mathematics which is kufr.

Thus Pakistan is both Islamic and kufr at the same time!

PS. Gandhi is a fascist bigot and is the cause of all problems Pakistan faces today. If it were not for the Deobandi madrassahs of India, Pakistan would be depending on Al-Azhar University of Cairo for its fatwas or on fatwasonline.com and be the most progressive country in the world. Pakistanis would be serving ham sandwiches and beer as appetizers at the end of the daily fast in the month of Ramadhan but for Gandhi the fascist bigot who used to sleep naked with his nieces.

PPS. Did I mention that Gandhi was a fascist bigot?

Ref Urstruly #126

[I have been carefully following this thread and deliberately did not post anything to divert the on going discourse. But realizing what happens to the Muslim minority in India and what Hindu majority has ion plans for them I think, in comparison, Quadianis (and other minorities) in Pakistan are indeed living in a utopian heaven. I guess, every minute of the day they must be gratful that they are living on this side of the border. What do you think YLH?]

Yes.

There are two million persons thronging the Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi clamoring to go to Pakistan, where they will get the same warm welcome the stranded Biharis in Bangladesh are getting.

How do you get Afghan hash in Detroit for you to be higher than a kite? Aren't the narcs on to you yet?

Ref zeemax #106

[{#102 Posted by dost_mittar,

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.}

And why not because Singapore after all has a Crescent on its flag!]

So, if India changes the Ashok Chakra at the center of its flag to a crescent moon, you mufukkas will stop demanding Kashmir?

I have been carefully following this thread and deliberately did not post anything to divert the on going discourse. But realizing what happens to the Muslim minority in India and what Hindu majority has ion plans for them I think, in comparison, Quadianis (and other minorities) in Pakistan are indeed living in a utopian heaven. I guess, every minute of the day they must be gratful that they are living on this side of the border. What do you think YLH?

Re: # 117

Mohar,

One more advice to YLH. The real worst jihadis go one step further, they are gandhi look alikes, with only a loin cloth and a stick. In fact, not many know, gandhi carried the stick, and as a jihadi, that was a dynamite stick.

YLH, watch out for those gandhi look alikes, carrying dynamite sticks, in teh streets of pakistan.

What a progress for your gandhi-jihadi theory. It started with gadhi carrying dynamite stick, then jinnah changed it to TNT, now the osamas have changed it further to RDX.

#122 Posted by MantoLives on March 15, 2008 12:36:12 pm


The reason why Pakistanis madrassahs became famous was because they got upto a billion dollars a year in Afghan Jehad from the US and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the ISI.


really...and what about the period between the soviet withdrawal in 1989 and now? what about the 90s when you kept the madrassahs going to produce jihadis to fight in india and afghanistan...

" These are your own"

I was not aware that you were privy to the identities of those responsible for the bombing today.

Again more fallacious thinking dear laddu.

First of all there are no shiite terrorists. Even the international terrorists are from the same salafi-ahle hadith school which inspired the ulema of deoband.

As for your claims about indian madrassahs not displaying the same amount of intolerance etc as Pakistani deobandi ones, I am afraid this is a false claim as well. The Pakistani deobandis take their lead from the Indian deobandi leadership. Indian deobandi fatwas are perhaps the most retrogressive and backward in the world. Surely you haven't forgotten the Shahbano, imrana and other such cases, where the deobandi ulema extracted their pound of flesh for services rendered against the Muslim League and Pakistan. Incidentally even Pakistan amended the Muslim family laws to make it more balanced for women in 1961 but same cannot be imagined in secular India because Congress is held hostage to its Darul uloom deoband vote.

The reason why Pakistanis madrassahs became famous was because they got upto a billion dollars a year in Afghan Jehad from the US and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the ISI. Therefore militancy is simply a matter of opportunity in this case.

As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology. If anything the Islamization of Pakistan is contrary to the basic spirit of the TNT which implied that a permanent majority should not by sheer numbers oppress permanent minorities, something which Pakistanis have been doing.

#120 Posted by laddu on March 15, 2008 10:44:32 am

gandhi's fault..I'm sure blockbuster will pull gandhi from it's shelves and put up jinnah instead...

These are your own.........whom you nurtured in your back yards........


One American woman killed in Islamabad blast
15 Mar 2008, 2257 hrs IST,PTI
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ISLAMABAD: An American woman working in the US Embassy here was killed and 15 persons, including Chinese and Japanese, were injured when a powerful blast rocked a popular restaurant in the heart of the Pakistani capital on Sunday.

The explosion on the lawn outside the Luna Caprise restaurant occurred at about 8:40 pm local time, sending plumes of smoke in the air and creating a huge crater at the site.