The Deoband Declaration on Terrorism: Why Now?

Ref ajeya #172

{#168 IslamIslam

Let me respond to this dumbass post that suggests that the US was "allowing" import of Chinese goods because of strategic reasons to "allow" China to rise.

Here's an article from someone who actually knows what he is talking about, not some small-time IT manager talking big on an obscure Internet site:}

Well, code coolies like you are sucking the dicks of the “small-time IT manager(s)” in most US and/or outsourcing companies in order to keep your job and hope to get a green card while you serve out your mandated 6-years and more of indentured labor as an H1-B visa holder. So, actually it is not a bad position to be an IT manager, small-time or big-time.

{http://www.chinanowmag.com/finance.htm}

I expect you will now be posting from China Now’s next issue about how the Dalai Lama is a “splittist” and how Tibetans love the Beijing government.

The least you can do is to find a source that is neutral. But that would mean that you actually have the comprehension capabilities of at least a banana slug.

Also, considering that FDI started flowing into China after 1978 and this article is published fully 30 years later in 2008, it would take an extraordinarily talented astrologer to predict back in 1978 that the Chinese government would be propping up the US economy by buying US Treasury bonds and other securities. But, how can a banana slug comprehend the passage of time? Thus you are quoting the actualities of 2008 to support your thesis of what took place in 1978.

{Here's an excerpt:

[Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the Chinese government policy of buying heavily in the U.S. debt market has contributed to much lower interest rates than would otherwise prevail. These low interest rates have been instrumental in keeping the U.S. economy from falling further and faster, including stimulating the aforementioned boom in housing.

In other words, public policies formulated in Beijing have actually been beneficial to the U.S. economy. Furthermore, cheap Chinese-made exports into the U.S. economy, the source of ire for U.S. government officials and politicians, have benefited American consumers. The effect of lower-priced consumer goods is to increase the real income of these consumers. They can buy more, and live better, than without these low-cost imported goods. The money saved on goods made in China may, in fact, result in increased purchases of the more capital- and knowledge-intensive goods manufactured in the United States, and may stimulate more spending on services and other goods that generate jobs in the domestic economy. It is, therefore, not quite so clear that an undervalued yuan (if, indeed, it is undervalued) is a zero sum game.

Is the yuan undervalued? This is also not as straightforward as it might seem. Yes, China is running a trade surplus with the United States because of the demand for low-priced, Chinese-made goods.....]}

Print this so that you can wipe your arse with it.

Re: # 180
One thing, I have missed.
In present situation, there is no point maintaining rituals. Brahmins does not force any ritual also. In large section of society, it is very difficult to find a brahmin to perform these rituals.

Re: # 180
I can not fully agree with you. Brahmins were of different types. Those who used to perform puja etc... used to create new rituals/customs to exploit others in the society. It was the main reason for popularity of Budhdhism. Lot of Jataka tales basically attacks unnecessary rituals by brahmins. But non-priest brahmins had carried out their work in medical science,yoga, astronomy, mathematics, literature. Aryabhatta was from post-Buddhist era. Similar stories you will find in ayurveda also. Muslims had killed these class of brahmins and tried to take away their work as islamic work. That stopped the development of that field. A refined society, under the rule of barbarians fails to maintain its standard. Read the story of Allah-upanishad. Now a days, moslems started claiming about their version of yoga.

nkg yar brahmins of today pretty much follow inane rotuals with little-understanding. now harimau claims to be an equal opportunity slayer of the stupid..imo brahmins are holders of a rich treasure-trove. its silly to blame medieval invasions on everything from shitting on the railroads to eating shit...hrimau is watching so be careful.

reality is IF there was good knowledge, and brahmins were indeed the holders of this, they ought to be blamed for losing it fair and square...after all they did not lose the mumbo-jumbo..the puranic tales and such did they? all they lost was understanding of discoveries by bhaskara and sushruta.

they are stupid and should be really scared of harimau.

Re: # 171
Mr. Jango (or Django), Panchagabya is not harmful. Ghee, Milk and curd is generic food item. Of the other two cow dung is used for fungal infection. I am not sure about medicinal value of urine, but Mr. Morarjee Desai used to consume his own urine for some ailment. The barbaric moslems had destryoed much of the knowledge of Ayurveda. Some are available as rituals (Use of Turmeric for holy bath).

Re: # 142
Unfortunately people like Vengatraman forget the essential facts. The Muslim Majority areas that formed Pakistan had absolute Muslim majorities... Sindh's Hindu population remains strong and so does that of Bangladesh.

Ans: Sindh had Sindhi (non -Urdooo/Moslem) population of around 24% in 1947. It is now 6%-8%. Bangladesh speaks similar story.

Re: # 172
Instead of China, USA had the power of creating industrial base, provided the country provides cheap labour and other ingrediants of industry. The country should be pro-USA. China has mostly benefitted in later stage of Indiastrilisation, where low cost product and high volume production is considered the viable model of generating profit.

Re: # 175
Muslims create trouble, whether they are majority or minority. In Indonesia (Muslim majority), Bali is hindu dominated area and very peaceful. It is target of Islamists. In India Mumbai, Delhi, Coimbatore, Bangalore, Varanasi, Jammu, Ahmedabad, Meerat moslems have created trouble. Neitherland had also similar experience.
The basic bararism incorporated in Islam is the root of all such problems. You can not bring any other theory and reason.

Manto,

Now, tell us if the minoroties (Ahmediyas, Christaians, Hindus) in Pakistan have ever tried or given the notion that they are undermining the sovereignty of Pakistan. Did they ever try to build a parallel system and started wringing their fingers once it fell apart.

To my knowledge, the minoroties in Pakistan have understood, very well, the length of the tether and are trying to be successful within the diameter caused by the tether.

You have a minority that complies to all the rules of the land and one that is not even remotely recalcitrant. There is a qualitative difference in the minorities of the two countries. Minorities (Muslims) of India and that of Pakistan are disparate in aspirations.

I am just curious to know if you have a minority caused bomb blast in Pakistan.

Having said that, I fully well understand that what Islamic Republic of Pakistan stands for and also the ideals of India. I am just trying to objectively spell out the differences, nonethless Muslims in India should be allowed to have their own aspirations, which does not harm the rest of the population.

Re: # 163
Pak Govt. site data specify that. Pakistan is notorious for Islam and people around the world are concerned about minority right in Pakistan (true for all countries where moslems are more than 50%. In the garb of Sharia and other mediaval middle east practise, freedom is limited for non moslems. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malayasia, Bangladesh and Pakistan are couple of examples). Naturally Pakistani Govt. data will show more minority than the actual number.

#171 jang

[If an area muslim population increases over time thanks to immigrants means the immigrants find an accomodating environment. ]

You mean, like the Muslim immigrants in France? I am glad you think that the French are accommodating. The Muslims somehow don't seem to think so.

Now why is that?

#168 ISlamIslam

[Which means that the US didn't have to allow import of Chinese-made goods in to the country at all. Or, it could have imposed prohibitively high customs duties, effectively killing Chinese exports to the US. And those export-oriented items could have been made with US investment or Taiwanese investment or Overseas Chinese investment. It doesn't matter.

Not doing that was a way to "allow" China to rise.]


Let me respond to this dumbass post that suggests that the US was "allowing" import of Chinese goods because of strategic reasons to "allow" China to rise.

Here's an article from someone who actually knows what he is talking about, not some small-time IT manager talking big on an obscure Internet site:

http://www.chinanowmag.com/finance.htm

Here's an excerpt:

[Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the Chinese government policy of buying heavily in the U.S. debt market has contributed to much lower interest rates than would otherwise prevail. These low interest rates have been instrumental in keeping the U.S. economy from falling further and faster, including stimulating the aforementioned boom in housing.

In other words, public policies formulated in Beijing have actually been beneficial to the U.S. economy. Furthermore, cheap Chinese-made exports into the U.S. economy, the source of ire for U.S. government officials and politicians, have benefited American consumers. The effect of lower-priced consumer goods is to increase the real income of these consumers. They can buy more, and live better, than without these low-cost imported goods. The money saved on goods made in China may, in fact, result in increased purchases of the more capital- and knowledge-intensive goods manufactured in the United States, and may stimulate more spending on services and other goods that generate jobs in the domestic economy. It is, therefore, not quite so clear that an undervalued yuan (if, indeed, it is undervalued) is a zero sum game.

Is the yuan undervalued? This is also not as straightforward as it might seem. Yes, China is running a trade surplus with the United States because of the demand for low-priced, Chinese-made goods.....]

yar harimau, brahmin rituals come across as really stupid to most ..i mean why would you WILLINGLY eat panchagavya?

If an area muslim population increases over time thanks to immigrants means the immigrants find an accomodating environment.

#168 ISlamIslam

[WTO mandates free trade under certain rules and conditions. Prior to that GATT was in force whereby bilateral trade agreements were struck between countries. China was out of GATT under the Communists.

Which means that the US didn't have to allow import of Chinese-made goods in to the country at all. Or, it could have imposed prohibitively high customs duties, effectively killing Chinese exports to the US. And those export-oriented items could have been made with US investment or Taiwanese investment or Overseas Chinese investment. It doesn't matter.

Not doing that was a way to "allow" China to rise.

I know it is hard for you to comprehend. Just lie down with a pack of ice on your forehead. You will be all right in a couple of days.

The rest of your post: equally stupid. ]

Wow. What an imbecilic response.

I think you know that it is clear to anyone who is watching this debate that you don't have a leg to stand on, and your boneheaded conspiracy theories are no better than Zeemax's theories of the US Government plotting 9/11. Your hard-headedness in not admitting your ignorance is only adding to your long list of stupid utterances - like comparing China and Cuba, or Phillippines and China.

Boy, you ARE stupid, and uninformed.

So let's get to this latest piece of crass idiocy.

Here's something for you to read. It is a good primer. If you are not completely brain-dead, it would hopefully penetrate your thick skull that the WTO membership was a very difficult decision for China, and one that the international community had been insisting that China should join for about 2 decades. The thought that WTO membership was an answer to China's prayers to the US government is as goatbrained as any one can think of.

By the way, the author of this article belongs to the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, not some small-time IT manager who likes guesswork over facts.

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~asaich/China%20and%20the%20WTO.pdf.

I'l l post some of the relevant details here:


China as a Member of the WTO: Some Political and Social Questions
Tony Saich
Kennedy School of Government
Harvard University


China’s entry into WTO in late-2001 will be as important to its development in the Twenty-first century as the victory of the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 was to the Twentieth. Entry builds on the extraordinary economic integration into the world economy that has taken place since reforms began in 1978 and shows China’s leaders’ commitment to being an active member of the world economic community. At the same time, it presents new challenges for the leadership in terms of the level of foreign presence China is willing to tolerate and how destabilizing this presence will be to native industry. In addition, it raises fundamental questions about national sovereignty and the extent to which crucial decisions about China’s future development will be dictated or determined by factors beyond the control of Zhongnanhai.

Having negotiated entry terms for almost 15 years, the debate is only just beginning in China about what the real effects will be. Essentially, President Jiang Zemin and Premier Zhu Rongji realized that guiding the necessary concessions through China’s complex bureaucracy would only result in delay and potentially strong opposition. As a result they took the whole process out of the political system and kept information within a tight, leading group. Now that entry has been assured and the details of the agreement are being disseminated in China, its people and bureaucracies are becoming aware of what they have signed on to and how it will affect their lives. Judgment is mixed depending on where one sits and how one views the impact.
Certainly the agreements are dramatic. It opens up new sectors, such as telecommunications, to foreign companies that will be able to own up to 50 percent of joint ventures (not the 51 percent offered by premier Zhu in April 1999). Tariffs, which had been among the highest in the world in the early 1990s, will be reduced dramatically with those on cars falling from 80 to 100 percent to 25 percent by 2006, agricultural tariffs will come down from 31 to 17. 5 percent and 14 percent for US priority products, and will be eliminated for computers, telecommunications’ equipment and semiconductors. This should have the positive impact of reducing the rampant smuggling and corruption that has accompanied China’s high tariff barriers. There have been equally dramatic agreements for the financial and insurance sectors. China has agreed to full foreign access for US banks within five years. After two years foreign banks will be allowed to conduct local currency business with Chinese firms and this would be extended to individuals three years later. Currently, foreign banks are not allowed to conduct foreign currency business with Chinese clients (corporate or individual) and severe restrictions are applied geographically on the establishment of foreign banks.
Realization of the consequences of these agreements have caused some to raise alarmist scenarios of increasing unemployment, greater inequality, Chinese firms going under because of lack of competitiveness, and many being driven off the land because of lower and better quality agricultural imports. However, much of the alarmist literature overestimates the problems and attributes to WTO effects that are the result of the shortcomings of the old system. In this short piece, I shall look at two issues.

First, given the opposition and the potential short-term dislocation why did China’s senior leaders decide to pursue entry so vigorously at this time. Second, what are some of the key social and political consequences likely to be?

The Imperative to Join

So why did China agree to such a tough set of conditions, what does it hope to gain from entry, and how will it set off potential gains against costs? I would identify five principle reasons why China wanted to join at the present time. First and foremost, China had very little choice as not entering might have afforded protection over the short term for its
4
economy but would have shut it out from the significant and structural benefits that would accompany membership. For example, if China were outside of the WTO it would more easily fall prey to unilateral sanctions for not just economic but also its political behavior. China’s leaders had been shocked by the post-1989 burst of Western sanctions and have seen the US propensity to threaten sanctions against other regimes in the world that it does not like or that do not follow its policy lead. Also, although the multi-fiber agreement was a separate issue and China was protected until 2008, if it was not in the WTO it feared that it might become the target of textile quotas from a number of Western nations who would not be able to apply them to countries within the WTO.

Second, China’s desire to be an important player on the world stage means that it must be a member of key organizations to influence policy-making. Simply being outside was not acceptable and would not have fit with Jiang Zemin’s desire to project an image of an important country that needs to be consulted on major world affairs. Importantly, if China did not gain early entry, a number of decisions would be made that would affect its vital interests without it having any input. For example, trade in services and agriculture are looming issues, as are the questions of workers’ rights and environmental protection. On the first two, China has a strong economic interest in being part of the debate, whereas China does not feel that the latter should be a part of the WTO discussions. It needed to join before crucial decisions were made on such issues.

Third, a number of senior leaders seem to have concluded that without some strong external disciplining mechanism, economic reforms might grind to a halt as vested interests resisted further forward momentum. In essence there is nothing in the WTO agreement that does not support the leadership’s stated desire to move toward a market economy and especially on the SOEs and the financial system there will be pressure for more fundamental reform. It is always useful for a politician to have someone else to blame for tough decisions and in the case of China who better than the foreigners? As Woo has argued if growth in China has come predominantly from institutional convergence to a prototype economy rather than from its exceptionalism during the transition, then entry can only be of benefit to sustained long-term growth.1 Entry into the WTO will provide a line in the sand of reform that it will be almost impossible to retreat behind. It will bind subsequent leaderships to continuing economic reforms and increased internationalization of China’s economy.

Fourth, WTO entry will bring a number of specific economic benefits to China. With Chinese economic growth slowing during the late-1990s and the state investment programs showing limited signs of success at best, it is clear that new sources of growth must be found. A number of Chinese economists have suggested that WTO entry could add as much as two percentage points to growth, enough to add 10 to 15 million jobs. In particular, WTO entry would improve market access for Chinese goods to major markets in Europe, Japan, and the US, especially for textiles and fashion apparel, and telecommunications equipment. Further, Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) growth has not only slowed but in 1999 it actually fell. WTO entry is seen as a way to sustain FDI and to encourage more US and European investment to supplement Hong Kong, other Asian capital, and Mainland China ‘round-trip’ capital. In particular, China wishes to direct more FDI to develop the service sector that must expand significantly for China to be able to absorb the surplus rural labor and laid-off industrial workers. One unintended
effect may be increased foreign control over the private sector, which has been starved of funds because of official bias in investment policy that still favors the state-owned sector. If Beijing continues to prop up and privilege a moribund SOE sector, it may find that foreigners are funding and reaping the benefits from the fastest-growing sector of the economy.

Fifth, and far more speculatively, China may have seen some advantage in membership in terms of its political and increasingly strong economic relationship with Taiwan. WTO membership for both will increase trade and investment across the Straits and may give more impetus to restart talks on future political integration. Failing all else, the WTO will provide a mechanism for dispute resolution on economic issues between Beijing and Taipei.

Social and Political Consequences

As noted above a number of writers have begun to produce doomsday scenarios about the social and political unrest that WTO membership will bring to China. By contrast, a number of liberal intellectuals have welcomed WTO entry as providing an impetus not only to the further development of the market economy but also to a more rule bound and democratic political order. WTO membership seems to presume not only a liberal trading order but also an independent legal system that constrains government as necessary, transparency, accountability, and a relatively pluralistic political order. However, this is likely to take a long time to develop. In essence WTO entry is liable to continue trends that had been set in motion well before China joined the WTO. In this sense, it will rationalize and hasten the
demise of the old economic order and will privilege those newly emerging sectors of the economy in which China enjoys an international comparative advantage.

Ref Eklavya #134

[ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.]

I am an Equal Opportunity Abuser of Stupidity. I don't discriminate on the basis of National origin.

Ref ajeya #131

{[When did China join WTO? Look it up.]

2001. And your point is?

[How about GATT?]

Yes. How about it?}

As usual, your cluelessness is easily visible for all to see.

WTO mandates free trade under certain rules and conditions. Prior to that GATT was in force whereby bilateral trade agreements were struck between countries. China was out of GATT under the Communists.

Which means that the US didn't have to allow import of Chinese-made goods in to the country at all. Or, it could have imposed prohibitively high customs duties, effectively killing Chinese exports to the US. And those export-oriented items could have been made with US investment or Taiwanese investment or Overseas Chinese investment. It doesn't matter.

Not doing that was a way to "allow" China to rise.

I know it is hard for you to comprehend. Just lie down with a pack of ice on your forehead. You will be all right in a couple of days.

The rest of your post: equally stupid.

If true, it just means that these are meaningless comparisons but I am hardly the one bringing them up :).

Yasser,

I am not sure the migrant population in Punjab is accurately acocunted for but I will try to get back with more details. By the way what do you make of the fact that Fascist Modiland has a higher Muslim % than Hindoos of Sindh- the birthplace of MAJ (pbuh) and the (allegedly) secular PPP.

Regards

Re: # 162

What is the problem there at Chidambaram?

Majumdar,

Dostmittar answered your post:

"However, a qualification is in order, most muslims in punjab, outside Maler Kotla, are not Punjabi speaking but more recent migrants from other states. "

Hence the number is any event irrelevant to any discussion of partition.

Dostmittar, Majumdar,

Even if we assume that Pakistani census figures are accurate (which are contested universally), if you were to add those areas that were subject of partition Punjab and Bengal... there are more Non-muslims on the erstwhile Pakistani partitioned provinces of 1947 (West Punjab and East Bengal) than there are Muslims in their counterparts.

So I am not sure what anyone wants to prove through this discussion.

NKG,

I am afraid I cannot accept your claim as it based on propaganda and nothing else.

In any event, Pakistan's census tragically underplays minorities and a more reasonable estimate is that there are about 8-12% Non-Muslims (I am not counting the Ahmaddiya community- the number jumps if we add them)... Reliable Christian sources put Pakistani Christians alone at around 10-15 Million. Pakistani Hindus number between 2.5-4 million.

Ref Golt #161

[Do you need that for the Kumbakonam dikshithars?]

The Dikshithars are in Chidambaram, not Kumbakonam.

Just keep going to Tirupathi and get your head shaved.

Re: # 160


Do you need that for the Kumbakonam dikshithars?

Ref Golt #151

[...he started advising the farmers to perform yagams and had a numerologist side kick to suggest name changes for them. All this didn't help in good yields.]

What were the new names?

Were they along the lines of Tamil Selvan or Tamil Kudimagan? Or, more like Sudalaikkannan and Mannankatti?

Re: # 146
As per my experience in Mumbai and Kolkata, there are couple of muslims ghettoes ( sometimes called mini-Pakistan), which people even dare to enter at day time ( sometimes even police). This is example of terrified moslems!!!!

Re: # 146
Terrified Minority?
Moslems dominate the criminal space in India. Remember the haydays of Dawood Ibrahim, Chhota Shakil, Anis Ibrahim... these dons with Dubai as head office...

Yasser,

(In Indian Panjab the Muslim population is next to nothing. Infact, you will find a lot more Pakistani Sikhs in Pakistani Punjab than Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab.)

Haryana, HP and Punjab constituted the erstwhile Indian Punjab. The proportion of Muslims is 5.8%, 2.0% and 1.6% respectively.

(source: Census of India)

Proportion of Hindus in Pak Punjab 1.85 (incl SCs), Others (0.7%) which I suppose wud include Sikhs as well.

(Source: http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_religion.pdf)

But I suppose 1.6% wud be next to nothing while 1.92% wud be a plurality!!!

Coming to Sindh the birthplace of the secular PPP and homeland of MAJ (pbuh)- the % of Hindus and SCs- 7.5%. By contrast the pop of Muslims in Hindoo fanatic Modiland -9.1%.

Regards

Re: # 132
If Ahmadis and Sikhs are more educated, then it may be their better social culture and value system. In India, Parsis and Anglo Indians are most advanced group. Does that imply, GOI takes special steps to promote them? Moslems are backward than upper caste hindus everywhere (UK and USA is nice example of it). So, backwardness of muslims in India is quite natural. Pakistan was created out of that fear (muslims can not compete with hindus in jobs. Job reservation in 1909 and 1919 by Lord Curzon had not solved the problem). Rather, the way Govt. of India pampers muslims (initially it was on the garb of minority. Now directly, 1000 crores for muslims alone!!!!).

Re: # 142
Overall non-moslem population is decreasing in Pakistan. Can you explain the decrease of overall numbers (not merely %)? In contrary, overall percentage of muslims are increasing in India. May be it is your islamic value system to lie. Just drift away litte from Islam, and be honest.

Re: # 131
In HDI index , Cuba was far ahead of China during 1970s. China may be permanent member of security council, but only member without it's own defence technology. They solely depend upon technology transfer from Russia. So, Cuba should have been preferred than China, if Cuba have deserted Russian block. The reason was geopolitical closeness. China and Pakistan is plced in between India and Russa. So, USA needed these two countries and tried to infuse some power in it.

Re: # 83
Oh, Pakistan will threaten USA for what? Couple of suicide bombs? If Pakistan is surviving, it is due to Arab Oil. When USA does not need that, they don't need to pamper Pakistan. After 9/11, they have shown that. Pakistan is no Vietnam (disciplined and hard working society).
Can you please elaborate Pakistan's strength? Taxi cab drivers in Europe, USA or Indian Restaurant owners/workers in Europe and USA, does not make it strong in the respective country. Only in one field, you are ahead of rest is breeding. That does not make any community strong.

#133 MantoLives

[So let me get this straight. You are saying that any Muslim who follows the Quran or believes in Islam is a terrorist? In other words anyone who believes in Islam is automatically a terrorist?]

No. He/she is automatically an enabler of terrorism, and responsible for supporting a movement that is MUCH more insidious and harmful for humanity than Communism, Fascism and Nazism combined.

Just like the party members of the Nazi party were not all evil people, but were all enablers of evil.

Re: # 149

The funny thing was, in addition to pawning his brain to the fertilizer companies, he started advising the farmers to perform yagams and had a numerologist side kick to suggest name changes for them. All this didn't help in good yields.

Let me know if you have time for more Brahmin stories.

Re: # 149

The funny thing was, in addition to pawning his brain to the fertilizer companies, he started advising the farmers to perform yagams and had a numerologist side kick to suggest name changes for them. All this didn't help in good yields.

Let me know if you have time for more Brahmin stories.

Re: # 147

Perfectly ok answer from you, considering the years of cramming your people have put in for generations.

Now, you got in deep shit when you tried to set that as the benchmark. I know a Brahmin mongrel, at Tirunelvely who topped the state and became an agri engineer, only to be brain fukced by the peasants on the street. He has no clue about what he has learnt. Let me know if you can provide a helping hand. Fyi He is closely related to Bharathiar.

Manto#142:

There is a significant number of muslims in what was east punjab. Here are the figures from 2001 census:

Chandigarh 409,615
Haryana 1,222,916
Himachal 119,512
Punjab 382,045

They add up to over two million muslims. New mosques are coming up in all major cities of Punjab - Ludhyana, Chandigarh, Amritsar. However, a qualification is in order, most muslims in punjab, outside Maler Kotla, are not Punjabi speaking but more recent migrants from other states.

Ref vengatramanan #143

[IslamIslam,

The other day, when I was asked to recite the DB connection code line by line, over phone, I just went blank. What's your inference?]

My inference is that you are a brain-dead Golt with an education obtained solely on the basis that you fit into some OBC quota.

Manto,

I am interested to know your pov on the Taslima attack in Hyderabad. The perpetrators were bold enough to come on NDTV/CNN-IBN to proclaim the validity of the fatwa on her.

Where's the terrified minority?

TN CM is bold enough: to be a Hindu aethist,to use stunning epithets against Hindus,
but never misses a ifthaar party and the
skull cap.

Manto,

You too sound equally simplistic, when trying to say that Muslims are discriminated by the state or the majority of the Indians. Did you ever think, a peaceful India is what the majority of Indians would want? A christian in India do not have to wear a veshti.

#142 Posted by MantoLives

In any country with a significant Muslim population, Muslims become the entrenched and implacable enemies of non-Muslims. There are always grudges - Islam khatrey mein hain, non-Muslims are communal etc. In EVERY country. I have spoken to non-Muslims around the world. It's ALWAYS the same.

Urstruly knows the reason for this. Mohammad still lies coiled in the brains of the Mullahs.

IslamIslam,

The other day, when I was asked to recite the DB connection code line by line, over phone, I just went blank. What's your inference?

ISafe,

Unfortunately people like Vengatraman forget the essential facts. The Muslim Majority areas that formed Pakistan had absolute Muslim majorities... Sindh's Hindu population remains strong and so does that of Bangladesh. Punjab saw a complete exchange of population. So the question of why the Muslim population is ascending is meaningless given that the accurate comparison would be province to province. In Indian Panjab the Muslim population is next to nothing. Infact, you will find a lot more Pakistani Sikhs in Pakistani Punjab than Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab.


Unfortunately simplistic arguments like the one Vengatraman put up has blinded our Indian friends from across the border.

#134 Eklavya

[ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.]

Well, maybe I was a little bit too direct in my first post to Harimau. In general, for me, he has been the pick of the posters, with comments that have been both knowledgeable and incisive. I have learnt a lot about Muslims and caste relations in India and in South India in specific, from his posts.

I think he is a very intelligent and well-educated person who thinks before he writes anything. Maybe that's why I was so surprised and upset by his post describing India and China as mere puppets of the US. I expected much better from him.

However, you are wrong about the ego bit. Who cares about ego. This is an anonymous site. And I'm not even looking to make friends.

IslamIslam,

Many of the forigners could not explain, why Java does not offer multiple inheritance. Does that mean all of them are zilch?

'The percentage of Hindus and Sikhs who did not cross the border and survived the crimes of partition has remained steady at 3-4%.'

How do you manage it?

re #135

This is a 'question' heard so often, but mostly from the same groups who have their own 'agendas'.

I am not hopeful that this brief description would help, but
anyways:

It is about the two census taken over more than 10 years apart.

First census was taken by the Raj, where in west India the Sikh/Hindu population was 21-23%.

Second census was taken a decade later by the Pak Gov.
where you have 3-4% Hindu/Sikh.

What is missing? The 9 million who crossed the border into India in 47-48. Missing also are the 10s of thousands of the innocent who were killed in 1947.

The percentage of Hindus and Sikhs who did not cross the border and survived the crimes of partition has remained steady at 3-4%. Not included in this are the tribals.

Could you please do us all a favor, and pass this along? Thank you.

Why would a government release casualty figures, a fraction of the actual?

Manto,

I was in Coimbatore, doing my engineering, when the blasts happened. Do you know how many Hindus died on that single day?

Re: # 132

Manto,

Why is that the Muslim population is always ascending in India? It defies your logic?

Do you have an explanation for the vastly reduced Hindu population, since partition, in Pakistan?

ajeya, ISlamIslam, dudes, what's with all this ego-metastisization?! Both of you bring unique and very valuable perspectives. And we can all be wrong once in a while. Give others the same benefit. Bashing each other is so counterproductive.

Mian laddu,

Sipah Muhammad was formed a counter group to Deobandi terrorist group Sipah sahaba. You may enlighten me on the acts of terrorism carried out by Hezbollah ... And please military targets in a war are not innocent bystanders and civilians.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that any Muslim who follows the Quran or believes in Islam is a terrorist? In other words anyone who believes in Islam is automatically a terrorist?

The discussion has qualitatively gone beyond TNT now because TNT was general enough to include every shade of Muslim from Ismaili to Ahmadi to even the cultural Muslim who otherwise was an unbeliever..so the islamic theology was not even the point.

I am more interested now in understanding this argument that the only good Muslims according to you are people who give up belief in Islam altogether and the rest the majority one billion followers are all terrorists? I find this a rather bigoted and fascist line of reasoning.

In other words, the mask of secularism is off your face.

Urstruly,

There is no question about that.

Despite all the discrimination, Pakistani Ahmadis are more educated, socially upward mobile and enterprising not just in comparison to the Indian Ahmadis but most communities in South Asia.

But let's not even take that as the basic comparison. Let's compare Pakistani Ahmadis' lot with the Indian Muslims.

Over the last 33 years since Ahmadis were excommunicated and subject of increased legal discrimination, the number of Ahmadis killed as a result of some religiously motivated attack .. 50 odd.

The number of Indian Muslims killed in the riots in just one day in 2001 ... 2000 +.

Now that is a far more damning statistic than the kind of numbers certain chowkies spin.

A more interesting comparison would be of property destroyed. But I don't have the statistics on that. All I can say that the main Ahmaddiya mosque in Model Town the Bait ul Noor is right down the road from the office of Jamaat ud dawa (yes indians it is lashkar e taiba) and yet not once has there been any problem between the two establishments.Not that I trust those JD freaks but one must give credit where its due.

Generally the problem with Pakistan is our insistence on superfluous inanities like the bar on non-muslims as head of state and the hudood ordinance which has rarely come into play. Otherwise if examined objectively Pakistan is much more secular a society on the ground than India can be...except even the most devout and bigoted of Hindus in India speak of secularism with a forked tongue (as seen by idiots on chowk) and even the most secular and liberal of Pakistanis (much more secular and liberal in lifestyle most Hindus) is under misperception that secular is a bad word.

One of the people I know and regard on a social level is our friend Ijaz Gul. He is perhaps one of the most well established and well connected Pakistanis around. He is a christian. Meeting him you won't feel even an iota of difference between him and other upper middle class well educated Pakistanis.

People like him and my late father have lived in this country with dignity and honor. And they have educated their children well.

In comparison, Shabbana Azmi and her idiotic husband are nothing if not Muslims in India. That is their central focus in life...all else flows from their Muslimness and how convenient a token they can be. And then after emphasizing their Muslimness, the generous act of wearing a Bindi to prove that look Muslims are good Indians. That becomes their central concern in life.

Needless to say no Christian goes around in Pakistan with their shalwars tucked up.

#100 ISlamIslam


[I waited breathlessly for your "informed" view of geopolitics. Fortunately, I could start breathing again within seconds.]

Your ignorance is excusable. What is not so excusable is that although you are a well educated man, you never took the time to look past the usual conspiracy theories and made the effort to educate yourself.

Actually I made a mistake. I should not have gotten involved in an argument with you. The theory that the US is "allowing" countries like China and India to "rise" (kind of like a "Arise, Sir Knight") like puppets at the end of a string is so ridiculous and childish that I should have just not commeneted. One should pick the people you want to argue with. However, since I have already started, I'll discuss it this once.


[I guess that same "nobody" is "allowing" Cuba under Castro all sorts of growth opportunities.]

China and Cuba are not the same thing. China is one of the most militarily powerful countries in the world, with a veto in the UN. Cuba is just a large island. It is a foolish comparison.


[There was plenty of choice. Just like in the 1950s through the 1970s, it was Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, in the late 1980s, it could have been Indonesia or the Philippines instead of China, if it was economic rather than geopolitical considerations.]

Of course, I did say that there were geopolitical AND economic considerations - "The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice.".

I guess you never took the trouble to educate yourself on these issues. Here's a free primer:

After the disastrous failure of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in 1960 (which was designed to transform China from an agriculture-based economy to an industrial economy), party moderates like Deng Xiao Ping and Liu Shaoqui proposed economic reforms in 1961. But because of internal politics, Deng had to wait till 1971 to actually implement his reforms, many of which were suggested by his predecessors like Zhou Enlai (Four Modernizations).

One of the "modernizations" involved decentralization of policy-making - in allowing local provinces and municipalities to invest in any industry THEY considered profitable. The municipalites and provinces, being low on capital, naturally chose to invest in light manufacturing. This proved to be one of the major successes in China because it led to rapid export-led growth. In contrast, the investment in heavy manufacturing came from the Chinese banking system - which in turn got the capital from Chinese consumer deposits. Under Deng's reforms, the profits were not to be reallocated except through taxation - the revenues generated from exports in light manufacturing were re-invested in products of higher and higher degrees of technological sophistication.

THIS is what started the industrial revolution in China. NOT FDI.

Of course, FDI accelarated China's progress. But it came mostly in the form of private businessmen, including Chinese expatriates using their contacts to invite FDi to China - mostly from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Japan, but also from Europe and USA.

The proportion of FDI from various countries can be seen here (scroll down past page 25):

http://www.nber.org/confer/2007/cwt07/foley.pdf

(in fact, read the whole article)




[That (having known him) and $4.50 would get you a latte at the local Starbucks.]

You have the attitude down pat. Now if only you had some substance.



[If the US wants to destabilize a powerful country such as Russia, it is not going to be through through a tiny country half-way around the world from the Soviets. Outer Mongolia just wasn't an option even though your friend's daddy might have considered that very carefully. China's geography (long borders with the Soviet Union), military power (nuclear weapons and huge army) and willingness to take punishment in a war (Mao is quoted as saying that he was prepared to lose 400 million Chinese in a war) made it the choice of US... short of arming Japan with nuclear weapons. That was not an option since the US was trying to prevent the spread of nukes.]

Read up on the history of the industrial revolution in China, before you make simplistic and foolish arguments about the whole thing being a CIA plot.



[Yes, it is the "brilliance" of its software engineers that has allowed India to capture the world markets.]

No, it was the enterpreneural spirit of Indians at grassroots levels that has allowed India to capture the world markets.



[ Ninety percent of the frikking code coolies I have interviewed cannot tell me why operator overloading and inheritance are both needed in an object-oriented language. I am sure, if you are a code coolie, you don't know it either.]

Maybe they are stumped by the inanity of the question. It's like asking why a bicycle needs both the seat and the handlebar.



[I have found better code coolies in Russia, Romania, and even Uzbekistan. And they work for cheaper rates than Indians despite having a rigorous education as opposed to fake degrees from "universities" in Jharkhand or Andhra or the quota graduates of Tamil Nadu.]

Yes, but how many of them are there? And what kind of companies do they represent?



[I suppose that is why they are trading with Cuba, importing its sugar and exporting it basic things like automobiles. (For those clueless idiots on Chowk, such trade does not exist!)]

Again, a ridiculous comparison. The expatriate Cubans are a powerful voting block that can make or break elections at the State level in Florida, which is also a crucial state in Presidential elections. US politicians have no intention of committing suicide by listening to the handful of businessmen who want to trade with Cuba.


[The US could have slapped heavy duties on China-made goods if the US corporations were going to import from China.]

Cheap Chinese goods help the American consumer. It also hurts domestic industries, and exports from other countries to the US. The US has always had to walk the fine line between the two. The US has slapped duties on Chinese products many times in the past decade. It is a accelerator-and-brake scenario, where the US tries to walk the tightrope between the two.



[When did China join WTO? Look it up.]

2001. And your point is?



[How about GATT?]

Yes. How about it?



[The US could have banned investments in China. It could have banned travel to China like it does with Cuba. Mattel is NOT bigger than the US government. Even IBM is not bigger than the US government and had to get permission to sell off its Personal Computer division to Lenovo, a Chinese company. And China was NOT allowed to buy Unocal or 3Com Corporation.]

Today, the US and Chinese economies are so intertwined that the demise of one would harm the other profoundly. China has been propping up the US Economy by buying its Treasury bonds which is really a loan that the US has been using to finance it's ballooning budget deficits and to buy goods from China.

You can find umpteen articles about this all over the web. Read for a change.

If USA had "planned" the "rise" of China, then they could not have done a worse job for themselves.

It would be difficult to say who is the puppetmaster and who is the puppet.




[I await your next "informed view" of how the world works with bated breath. ]

You should. Because you are talking like a child.

"First of all there are no shiite terrorists. "

So, Hezbollahs do not commit terrorist acts?
And ins,t Sipah-e-Mohammed Pakistan (SMP) a Shia terrorist group in Pakistan?

"The Pakistani deobandis take their lead from the Indian deobandi leadership. Indian deobandi fatwas are perhaps the most retrogressive and backward in the world."

Interesting, because the latest Indian Deobandi declaration does not seem to be re-iterated by the so-called followers of Deoband in Pakistan madarassas.


"As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology."

You also agree that TNT is about muslim identity. I am yet to come across a "muslim" identity that does not involve the 5 pillars of Islam, the Islamic theology and its prescribed moral code of Sharia!!

Ref MantoLives #122

[As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology. If anything the Islamization of Pakistan is contrary to the basic spirit of the TNT which implied that a permanent majority should not by sheer numbers oppress permanent minorities, something which Pakistanis have been doing.]

Folks,

That dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani is right in stating that Pakistan was not conceived as an Islamic state by Jinnah-bhai.

Jinnah-bhai was interested in establishing a scientific country in certain portions of India that would be free from the superstitions of the Hindus. He tried his best to stay within a United India where Islamic Mathematics would be accepted by all, whereby 30% = 70%. Unfortunately for Jinnah-bhai, no mathematician nor politician came forward to accept this crucial axiom of Islamic Mathematics.

In fact, Jinnah-bhai had other theorems that would have shown that 1 is greater than 1 billion, etc., and essentially he was on a quest to prove that positive numbers are negative numbers. Since -30 is greater than -70, Jinnah-bhai's argument holds coherency when you apply this greatest discovery of Islamic Mathematics.

Jinnah-bhai realized that with Islamic Mathematics, in Pakistan the 10% minority would also have to be greater than the 90% Muslim population. This is proof of his secularism.

However, with the death of Jinnah-bhai, Pakistan veered from Scientific Islam and accepted that 90% is greater than 10%. In order to silence the supporters of Jinnah-bhai, they first reduced the 10% to 3% and adopted Western Mathematics which is kufr.

Thus Pakistan is both Islamic and kufr at the same time!

PS. Gandhi is a fascist bigot and is the cause of all problems Pakistan faces today. If it were not for the Deobandi madrassahs of India, Pakistan would be depending on Al-Azhar University of Cairo for its fatwas or on fatwasonline.com and be the most progressive country in the world. Pakistanis would be serving ham sandwiches and beer as appetizers at the end of the daily fast in the month of Ramadhan but for Gandhi the fascist bigot who used to sleep naked with his nieces.

PPS. Did I mention that Gandhi was a fascist bigot?

Ref Urstruly #126

[I have been carefully following this thread and deliberately did not post anything to divert the on going discourse. But realizing what happens to the Muslim minority in India and what Hindu majority has ion plans for them I think, in comparison, Quadianis (and other minorities) in Pakistan are indeed living in a utopian heaven. I guess, every minute of the day they must be gratful that they are living on this side of the border. What do you think YLH?]

Yes.

There are two million persons thronging the Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi clamoring to go to Pakistan, where they will get the same warm welcome the stranded Biharis in Bangladesh are getting.

How do you get Afghan hash in Detroit for you to be higher than a kite? Aren't the narcs on to you yet?

Ref zeemax #106

[{#102 Posted by dost_mittar,

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.}

And why not because Singapore after all has a Crescent on its flag!]

So, if India changes the Ashok Chakra at the center of its flag to a crescent moon, you mufukkas will stop demanding Kashmir?

I have been carefully following this thread and deliberately did not post anything to divert the on going discourse. But realizing what happens to the Muslim minority in India and what Hindu majority has ion plans for them I think, in comparison, Quadianis (and other minorities) in Pakistan are indeed living in a utopian heaven. I guess, every minute of the day they must be gratful that they are living on this side of the border. What do you think YLH?

Re: # 117

Mohar,

One more advice to YLH. The real worst jihadis go one step further, they are gandhi look alikes, with only a loin cloth and a stick. In fact, not many know, gandhi carried the stick, and as a jihadi, that was a dynamite stick.

YLH, watch out for those gandhi look alikes, carrying dynamite sticks, in teh streets of pakistan.

What a progress for your gandhi-jihadi theory. It started with gadhi carrying dynamite stick, then jinnah changed it to TNT, now the osamas have changed it further to RDX.

#122 Posted by MantoLives on March 15, 2008 12:36:12 pm


The reason why Pakistanis madrassahs became famous was because they got upto a billion dollars a year in Afghan Jehad from the US and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the ISI.


really...and what about the period between the soviet withdrawal in 1989 and now? what about the 90s when you kept the madrassahs going to produce jihadis to fight in india and afghanistan...

" These are your own"

I was not aware that you were privy to the identities of those responsible for the bombing today.

Again more fallacious thinking dear laddu.

First of all there are no shiite terrorists. Even the international terrorists are from the same salafi-ahle hadith school which inspired the ulema of deoband.

As for your claims about indian madrassahs not displaying the same amount of intolerance etc as Pakistani deobandi ones, I am afraid this is a false claim as well. The Pakistani deobandis take their lead from the Indian deobandi leadership. Indian deobandi fatwas are perhaps the most retrogressive and backward in the world. Surely you haven't forgotten the Shahbano, imrana and other such cases, where the deobandi ulema extracted their pound of flesh for services rendered against the Muslim League and Pakistan. Incidentally even Pakistan amended the Muslim family laws to make it more balanced for women in 1961 but same cannot be imagined in secular India because Congress is held hostage to its Darul uloom deoband vote.

The reason why Pakistanis madrassahs became famous was because they got upto a billion dollars a year in Afghan Jehad from the US and Saudi Arabia with the connivance of the ISI. Therefore militancy is simply a matter of opportunity in this case.

As for TNT, I have already shown you that this is entirely unrelated to all these activities, given that it was a movement for the uplift of Muslims and was in any event unconcerned with theology. If anything the Islamization of Pakistan is contrary to the basic spirit of the TNT which implied that a permanent majority should not by sheer numbers oppress permanent minorities, something which Pakistanis have been doing.

#120 Posted by laddu on March 15, 2008 10:44:32 am

gandhi's fault..I'm sure blockbuster will pull gandhi from it's shelves and put up jinnah instead...

These are your own.........whom you nurtured in your back yards........


One American woman killed in Islamabad blast
15 Mar 2008, 2257 hrs IST,PTI
Print Save EMail Write to Editor
ISLAMABAD: An American woman working in the US Embassy here was killed and 15 persons, including Chinese and Japanese, were injured when a powerful blast rocked a popular restaurant in the heart of the Pakistani capital on Sunday.

The explosion on the lawn outside the Luna Caprise restaurant occurred at about 8:40 pm local time, sending plumes of smoke in the air and creating a huge crater at the site.

Re: # 114

"Since all terror is deobandi in origin and deobandis were opposed to TNT then it negates all the rest of your arguments."

This is a false statement. It is refuted by the presence of Shia terrorists. Hamas and kashmiri terrorists are not deobandis. And Deobandis in India are yet to show the type of intolerance that is evident from Pakistani madarassas.
I think it is because Pakistani constitution considers "Islamic Principles" to be the basis of all acts and rules...and nothing can be ultra-vires to this.........which has been rightly interpreted by the mullahs that only they hold the key to interpretation of PAki constitution.and ofcourse complete conformity with Sharia is the "basic principle" of Pakistani consitution!!

Re: # 114

Ther is NO fallacy . I am not asserting that there is a coincidental correlation between Mohammadeanism and TNT.

Let us look intgo the "minority interest argument" again.

MJ was only negotiating for preservation of muslim identity.

TNT was required to preserve muslim identity.

muslim identity is based upon 5 pillors of Islam and Quran.

Thus TNT is based upon what Quran states to be the muslim identity.

Thus, TNT is bsed upon Islam.

QED.

Let us not fool ourselves. Every momeen knew what Quran says and what Pakistan was supposed to achieve- the only confusion was in the mind of MAJ. He thought that that Pakistan was a secular state but talked about "muslim" identity which was pre-dominantly based upon Islamic identity.

Yo YLH - you are still alive... good to know... feroz had a close call recently - suicide bomb went off a few hundred feet of where he was...

Be careful out there - jihadis, I mean gandhi-followers, are all over pakiland now...

BTW, manto..

did you hear about how the indigenous freedom fighters of the Lashkar-e-toiba, the kashmiri freedom fighting group, were responsible for the bombings in Lahore?

you know...the kashmiri freedom struggle you're such a big supporter of...

I hope nobody you know got whacked by the actions of the freedom fighters you supported...

no seriously..

is post hoc the newly discovered word of the day?

if you're going to use it in every post, at least use it right..

a proper use would be if someone, no one in particular, were to claim that gandhi supported the mullahs in the 1940s and lal masjid happened in 2007....hence gandhi caused lal masjid...

113,

Well yes...to a certain extent that is true.

But that disproves your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy about Pakistan and TNT which renders your earlier 112 meaningless.

Neither prophet Muhammad nor the TNT have anything to do with Deobandi Islamic militancy since Deobandis denounced the TNT which you say can be traced back to Muhammad.

Since all terror is deobandi in origin and deobandis were opposed to TNT then it negates all the rest of your arguments.

All the mullahs were against Jinnah leading a truncated part of conquered land of India because that would mean relinquishing the conquered part of Islamic land.
Read Madani other mullahs , they only were against the truncated land of Pakistan.

Post facto , all the mullahs were rapid supporters of Pakistan-as-an-Islamic-state.........

Re: # 111

Acually the history of TNT can easily be traced back to Mohammad.........blame him for creation of Pakistan and the Jehadism.....

More of the same flawed "magical" reasoning. All I am saying is that Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc vis a vis creation of Pakistan is false.

What we do today is the direct result of our actions today and not of people who do not belong to this spacetime location.

#109 Posted by MantoLives on March 15, 2008 5:00:42 am

So gandhi is responsible for the daily bombings, the US bombing of paki citizens, pakiland being on the top 10 dangerous places and lowest on the tourism index?

hmm..I might have to revise my opinion of gandhi...

My good friends from across the border are busy repeating the fallacy that we know as "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc".

The history of Islamic militancy in the subcontinent is quite clearly Deobandi specific. This is why they need to come up with a fatwa in the first place. Barelvi Islam - the adherents of which formed the mainbody of those TNT-ists everyone here loves to hate- never considered terrorism and militancy halal.

I don't like repeating the history lesson but I am afraid I have no option because such lies and misinformation should not go unchecked.

Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a”, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded”.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.”

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power”. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death”.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this”.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws”.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently”.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat”. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat”. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g4GjrwQmxAA&feature=related

Pakistan ka jhanda Lal Kile par pheharaeinge......Hindustaani kutte....kashmir ki azzadi tak jang rahegi..bhaarat ki barbaadi tak jang raheegi.........pakistan ka bachha bachha larega aur khoon bahaega......


Every one must watch the seeds of hatred sown in the minds of young in Pukistan by its Jehadi civilian masters!!!

Its a white wash by deobandians.......jehad can never be ejected from Islam how so ever ugly it be globaly for ummah.