The Deoband Declaration on Terrorism: Why Now?

Ref dost_mittar #102

[I think that the Singapore model could have worked. Before you ask, this is what I think is the Singapore model in brief:

- Muslims are treated as equal citizens and 'almost' no discrimination in jobs, housing, social services etc. 'Almost' because at least when they had friction with Malaysia, Muslims were not allowed in the air force to save them from any potential "dharma sankat".]

In a similar manner, Malaysia doesn't take Chinese into its Armed Forces.

They just want to ensure that there aren't any chinks in their armor. :-)

Eklavya#73:

"How could Gandhi/Nehru not have encouraged muslims, as a group, to have an identity that was separate from non-Muslims, and was ummah-oriented?"


I think that the Singapore model could have worked. Before you ask, this is what I think is the Singapore model in brief:

- Muslims are treated as equal citizens and 'almost' no discrimination in jobs, housing, social services etc. 'Almost' because at least when they had friction with Malaysia, Muslims were not allowed in the air force to save them from any potential "dharma sankat".

- Muslims had full religious freedom to practice the five pillars of islam - shahadah, namaz, zakat, rozas and hajj.

- Muslims got holidays to celebrate their religous occasions, could wear hijabs, beards, etc.

- Muslim schools could only teach approved syllabii and were closely monitored for adherence.

- Mosque sermons have to follow strict guidelines approved by sarkari muslims and are closely monitored.

- No ummar oriented demonstrations or activities are allowed.

I might add that Muslims in Singapore seem to be quite a happy lot.

Ref Eklavya #94

[ajeya, on the other hand, your #92 was pretty good.]

Already formed a Mutual Admiration Society with ajeya, haven't you.

Too bad you couldn't have waited six hours to let me catch up on my beauty sleep.

Read #100

Ref ajeya #92

#91 by ISlamIslam

{[India will be allowed to grow as a counterweight to China, just like China was allowed to grow to counter the Soviet Union.]

This is a very uninformed, "aam junta" view of how things work in this world.}

I waited breathlessly for your "informed" view of geopolitics. Fortunately, I could start breathing again within seconds.

[Nobody "allowed" China to grow.]

I guess that same "nobody" is "allowing" Cuba under Castro all sorts of growth opportunities.

[The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice.]

There was plenty of choice. Just like in the 1950s through the 1970s, it was Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, in the late 1980s, it could have been Indonesia or the Philippines instead of China, if it was economic rather than geopolitical considerations.

[Not that it changed my view, but I used to work with an American guy whose father was pretty high-up and actively involved in diplomatic negotiations with the Chinese for many years.]

That (having known him) and $4.50 would get you a latte at the local Starbucks.

[The US actaully grabbed on to the Chinese option like manna from heaven.]

If the US wants to destabilize a powerful country such as Russia, it is not going to be through through a tiny country half-way around the world from the Soviets. Outer Mongolia just wasn't an option even though your friend's daddy might have considered that very carefully. China's geography (long borders with the Soviet Union), military power (nuclear weapons and huge army) and willingness to take punishment in a war (Mao is quoted as saying that he was prepared to lose 400 million Chinese in a war) made it the choice of US... short of arming Japan with nuclear weapons. That was not an option since the US was trying to prevent the spread of nukes.

[Similarly, nobody "allowed" India to grow by "aiding" India.]

Yes, it is the "brilliance" of its software engineers that has allowed India to capture the world markets. Ninety percent of the frikking code coolies I have interviewed cannot tell me why operator overloading and inheritance are both needed in an object-oriented language. I am sure, if you are a code coolie, you don't know it either.

I have found better code coolies in Russia, Romania, and even Uzbekistan. And they work for cheaper rates than Indians despite having a rigorous education as opposed to fake degrees from "universities" in Jharkhand or Andhra or the quota graduates of Tamil Nadu.

[Political figures in Washington have only so much power over international trade and commerce. The best they can do in intervene here and there strategically. But for the bulk of it, the big financial corporations shape the trade policies to their own advantage.]

I suppose that is why they are trading with Cuba, importing its sugar and exporting it basic things like automobiles. (For those clueless idiots on Chowk, such trade does not exist!)

The US could have slapped heavy duties on China-made goods if the US corporations were going to import from China. When did China join WTO? Look it up. How about GATT?

The US could have banned investments in China. It could have banned travel to China like it does with Cuba. Mattel is NOT bigger than the US government. Even IBM is not bigger than the US government and had to get permission to sell off its Personal Computer division to Lenovo, a Chinese company. And China was NOT allowed to buy Unocal or 3Com Corporation.

I await your next "informed view" of how the world works with bated breath.

HAHAHA....perfect reply to pakiland's protests...

seriously..change your name to condomistan

Afghanistan fires 4 more missiles at Pak village

By Ali Afzal Afzaal

PARACHINAR: Four more missiles fired from Afghanistan fell on the border village of Boraki in Kurram Agency on Friday evening, a day after a strong protest was lodged with the US-led coalition forces over the attack on a Pakistani village that had killed four persons.

Official sources said the missiles fell near a checkpoint manned by the paramilitary Frontier Corps (FC). The troops, however, remained safe as none of the missiles exploded. A senior official of the political administration, while requesting anonymity, told The News that the missiles were fired from the neighbouring Paktia province of Afghanistan. He said they did not know who was the target of these missiles.

"We have informed senior government functionaries of the firing of missiles from across the border," said the official. He said the missiles fell about 500 meters inside Pakistani territory and frightened the soldiers and residents of the adjoining villages.

The official said senior military officials based in Parachinar, the regional headquarters of Kurram Agency, also visited the border village and took the missiles into possession. Top military spokesman and DG ISPR Maj Gen Athar Abbas, when reached by telephone, told The News he, too, had received similar reports but the local military officials in the area could not confirm the same. "It cannot be confirmed whether these were missiles or mortar shells and also there were no details about reports that these missiles were fired from across the border," explained the DG ISPR. He said the attack didn't cause any casualty.

It may be mentioned here that four people, including two minor girls and two women, were killed in North Waziristan Agency a few days back when five artillery shells fired from across the border by the US-led coalition forces hit a home in the border town of Lawara Mandai. The government for the first time admitted foreign aggression and lodged a strong protest with the military representatives of the coalition forces based in Islamabad.

ajeya, without realizing it perhaps, you are taking the Islamist line: the US is using Pakistan. The Islamist line is that the (bad) US is using Pakistan. While your line is that the US is using Pakistan (like a condom).

The truth is that Pakistan has consistently used the US, as well, with unusual success. They have done that by being very very intelligent in their dealings with the US. It cannot be easy to be a 'leader' of the Ummah, and to pursue the Islamic agenda Pakistan has pursued, and STILL be an 'ally' of the US.

It will be very foolish for a state like Pakistan to issue direct threats to the US.

Give Pakistanis credit where they truly do deserve, including credit for being reasonably intelligent like the rest of us.

#96 Eklavya

[ajeya, for a country like the US there cannot be permanent alienations nor permanent friendships.]

Permanent in this context means for an appreciably large number of years. LIke Cuba has been in the shithole for decades. I think we all know that nothing is permanent in the world - one day the sun will burn out.

[Consider what the 'first sign of trouble from Pakistan' (or from any other state) would consist of? Does being played, being double-dealt, constitute sign of trouble? Do you think the US has had at least some inkling of these things over the last decade or so?]

But that's not what you said. You were talking about "threatening US interests". Pakialnd will be in the shithole so fast that it won't know what hit it.

[Ajeya, like any other state, the US wants to keep its cost of doing business around the world as low as possible. And Pakistan, as an ideological state, with close links to global Islam, can potentially increase or reduce that cost.]

I don't think so. If it did, it would not be getting bombed by the US army on it's own soil. Although I can sense your affinity for Pakistan (for whatever reason - religious, family-related or otherwise), you are way wrong on this issue. It is obvious to the blind that Pakiland has been bending over whenever Uncle Sam wants it to. Like when the American general threatened to bomb Pakiland back to the Stone Age.

Sorry. Your Pakiland is being used like a condom. And will be discarded eventually.

ajeya, for a country like the US there cannot be permanent alienations nor permanent friendships.

Consider what the 'first sign of trouble from Pakistan' (or from any other state) would consist of? Does being played, being double-dealt, constitute sign of trouble? Do you think the US has had at least some inkling of these things over the last decade or so?

Ajeya, like any other state, the US wants to keep its cost of doing business around the world as low as possible. And Pakistan, as an ideological state, with close links to global Islam, can potentially increase or reduce that cost.

#94 Eklavya

[ajeya, on the other hand, your #92 was pretty good.]

I would much rather that you called it "pretty accurate" than "pretty good".

I think #93 was pretty accurate as well. The fisrt sign of trouble from Pakistan would permanently alienate Pakistan from the US, and pretty much make it THE MOST pariah of nations. Even with all the sucking up that Pakistani establishment does, it is still viewed unfavorably by the West. I have talked to Americans who are fully aware that Pakistan is a "friendly" state only because they are of use to the US for fighting terrorism. Otherwise, Pakistan is popularly known as Terror Central. Any false move by Pakistan and it will be relegated to the shithole for good. And all EU countries would join the bandwagon wholeheartedly. So I don't think Pakistan holds any aces up it's sleeve. Not after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. The US can get to the Caspian oil in many ways. If they have to.

ajeya, on the other hand, your #92 was pretty good.

1. The US has large but limited powers. It faces its own, economic and geopolitical compulsions, as you put it, particularly against other large players.

2.It can be played like a fiddle by smart, well-placed players, even small ones, like the kosovons and the Israelis.

As would everyone else, the US would LIKE to possess omnipotence, but it doesn't have it. It simply exercises a great deal of influence.

#83 Eklavya

[American must realize that Pakistan can make enough of a difference in world affairs to threaten the US or its interests.]

That is as eminently boneheaded as anything I've ever heard. Simply breathtaking in it's boneheadedness.

Astounding.

#91 by ISlamIslam

[India will be allowed to grow as a counterweight to China, just like China was allowed to grow to counter the Soviet Union.]

This is a very uninformed, "aam junta" view of how things work in this world. Nobody "allowed" China to grow. The US, with it's economic and geopolitical compulsions, had absolutely no choice. Not that it changed my view, but I used to work with an American guy whose father was pretty high-up and actively involved in diplomatic negotiations with the Chinese for many years. The US actaully grabbed on to the Chinese option like manna from heaven. Similarly, nobody "allowed" India to grow by "aiding" India. Political figures in Washington have only so much power over international trade and commerce. The best they can do in intervene here and there strategically. But for the bulk of it, the big financial corporations shape the trade policies to their own advantage.

Ref jang #89

[harimau, some baniyas in northrop grumman and boing are trying to get in bed with india but if pentagon had its way, it would have little to do with india. its a very unreliable "strategic" partner..with commies and swadeshis in a parliamentary system govt it can never count on anything. pakistan is a much better bet with a determined military and somewhat unified nationalism.]

The US has long-term strategic planners in every department, including the Pentagon and the State Department. Decisions are taken after analyzing short- medium- and long-term implications.

If the decision to aid India is taken with a short-term view, then the equipment offered would have limited life and limited capabilities. Even then, they would be bugged with software viruses that can be remotely activated to render them useless should the conflict in which they are used does not meet with the approval of the US.

The capabilities may be better if the idea is to support India over the medium term; but the ability to cripple the equipment still remains.

India still will not be able to buy nuclear submarines and submarine-launched ballistic missiles even if it signs a formal treaty of alliance with the US. That was given as an exception to only the UK, not even France.

They have studied Pakistan to death and have concluded it has no chance of surviving as a viable state. Hence, Pakistan will be used as a condom and discarded.

India will be allowed to grow as a counterweight to China, just like China was allowed to grow to counter the Soviet Union. Once China is fractured into several countries just like the Soviet Union was, the US will attempt to dismember India in the same fashion. But that is 50+ years into the future.

India's strategy should be to use the US to grow its capabilities while keeping the country intact.

The first step for that would be to ban all the caste-based or one-state-only parties. Mayawathi and her Bahujan Samaj would have to go. So would the DMK, ADMK, Telugu Desam, etc. That would leave the BJP, the Commies and the pseudo-Commies called the Congress.

That is the bad news for India.

79/#81 Posted by Eklavya

Although Pakistanis can do whatever they want, it is truly tragic that sundry Sindhis, Pakhtoons, Punjabis and everyone else there would want to kill and bomb the very people who are most committed to Pakistan as a state and who have clearly sacrificed the most to build their greatest stake there.

Yes, actually it's beyond tragic. It is quite unbelievable in its ignorance and hubris. I had read that Daily Times Op-Ed too. But, I'm sure that person would have done some serious rethinking since then, just as some interactors on these very boards who held the same views have been rethinking their positions.

HP had asked on the other board as to when have the FATA people listened to reason? I said 1947-2005. He said no, only till 1978. At-least he concedes they were not 'criminals' till 1978 and only turned into that afterwards.

harimau, some baniyas in northrop grumman and boing are trying to get in bed with india but if pentagon had its way, it would have little to do with india. its a very unreliable "strategic" partner..with commies and swadeshis in a parliamentary system govt it can never count on anything. pakistan is a much better bet with a determined military and somewhat unified nationalism.

Ref Eklavya #77

[Pakistan is a large country with nuclear capabilities. Within sixty years it has already established itself as the Ummah's most powerful member and the most active leader. Its thinkers and leaders are shaping and moulding the Ummah.]

King Faroukh of Egypt said 60 years back, "Pakistanis think Islam was invented on Aug 14, 1947."

I notice the delusion hasn't ended.