The Deoband Declaration on Terrorism: Why Now?

Ref dost_mittar #40

[How do they compete in the "approach" department?]

What do you mean by that?

IAS, IPS, etc., are based on competitive examinations. Two years backm the District Superintendent of Police in Nagapattinam district was a Muslim. He has since been transferred to some other post.

Syed Munir Hoda is a Secretary in the Tamil Nadu state government, close to Docgtor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion. From his name, one would guess he is not Hindu, Christian, Sikh or Jain, leaving only one conclusion as to his religion.

Let these fcukers study in a regular school rather than in madrassahs and go compete with Hindus the way Christians, Jains and Sikhs do. Shhesh, most Hindus in Tamil Nadu want their kids to study in Christian schools, knowing that the nuns and monks would instill strong discipline in them.

Re: # 47

In the age of internet it is not possible for Islamic states to HIDE their prosecution of kafir population (whatever is left of after the slaughter and assault).

Hindus feel the heat in Pakistan
Riaz Sohail
BBC News, Karachi

Kidnap victim Garish Kumar
Wealthy Hindus like Garish Kumar are targets for kidnappers
The kidnap and murder of a Hindu engineer in Pakistan's southern province of Sindh has increased the insecurity among fellow Hindus.

Garish Kumar disappeared last month near Hyderabad city, 250 km (160 miles) from the port city of Karachi in Sindh.

His dismembered body parts were later found near a madrassa (Islamic religious school).

Police initially said the crime was committed by an outlawed Muslim militant group. Five people were arrested.

However, Hyderabad's police chief, Shaukat Shah, the incident now seems to be a simple kidnapping for ransom case.

Minority report

Kumar's father, Saspal Das, is a trader from Kunri town in Sindh's central district of Umerkot.

Poor Hindus in Sindh
Most Hindus are poor peasants and serve as bonded labour

"No one listens to the Hindu minority," he complains. ""We have no security.

"We are targeted because we are Hindu. There is no other reason for kidnapping Garish."

Pakistan is home to some 2.5 million Hindus, 95% of them living in the southern Sindh province.

Most are poor, low-caste peasants.

However there are also some successful upper caste businessmen. In Sindh, they are a hot commodity for bandits.

They lack the protection afforded to local tribal Muslims.

Whole tribes often go to war with one another in rural Sindh over any slight to their members.

That cushion is not available to the Hindu minority.

Protection money

In recent years kidnapping for ransom and armed robberies have multiplied in the area and Hindus have increasingly been the focus of attacks.

Hindu men
Hindus have to pay thousands of pounds to avoid kidnapping

Many pay protection money regularly to local gangs or influential figures. But in spite of this they are still targeted.

Santosh Kumar, a rice trader from Larkana town in upper Sindh, and his two brothers were kidnapped in separate incidents in 2006. They were later released after paying a huge ransom.

Another wealthy trader from the nearby city of Sukkur in Sindh, Sundeep Kumar, was kidnapped in 2005.

He was released after paying a ransom of over a million rupees ($16,000), according to local sources.

The ransom can sometimes go up to five times that amount.

But not all Hindus are as rich as Sundeep Kumar.

Last August, a youth, Ramesh Lal, was kidnapped. His relatives could not afford the ransom, and his body was later found at a police check post.

In the last three years at least five Hindu traders have been killed after being kidnapped or offering resistance.

"Powerful oppress the weak"

Ramesh Lal, a Hindu MP in Pakistan's parliament says, "The Hindus are not as rich as portrayed."

"Often the kidnappers ask a huge amount that the families cannot pay. As a result the hostages are killed."

Hindu women
Even Hindu women and children are not spared by the kidnappers

The President of the Hindu council in Sukkur district, Mukhi Aishwar Lal says, "the powerful always oppress weaker communities... Hindus are weak so they are targeted."

He relates how a few years back a Hindu family travelling by local bus were kidnapped by local bandits, while rest of the passengers were allowed to go.

Around that time some foreigners were also kidnapped in the same area. The police secured their release without any payment, but the Hindus were released after a huge ransom was doled out.

Such incidents increase the feeling among Hindus that they have no say in power and authority in the country.

Political apartheid

In Pakistan's political system, the minorities, such as Hindus, Christians and Sikhs, remain outcasts despite represented in every major political party.

After Gen Pervez Musharraf seized power in 1999, he scrapped the controversial separate electorate system introduced former dictator Gen Zia-ul-Haq in 1980s.

Under the separate electorate system, non-Muslims could only vote for candidates of their own religion. Seats were reserved for minorities in the national and provincial assemblies.

Critics said Muslim candidates no longer had any incentive to pay attention to the aspirations of the minorities.

Gen Musharraf hoped to reverse that by the simple step of abolishing the system. But that appears to have failed.

Sudham Chand, a Hindu community leader who led a local campaign to scrap the separate electorate system was killed in broad daylight. His murder conveyed many a message.

The killers were not arrested. His brother later migrated to India.

Ramesh Lal, a member of the National Assembly, says that the restoration of the conventional electoral system is of little use if the minorities have no security.

And still, he complains, no one asks the minorities what problems they are suffering.

Losing faith

Mukhi Aishwar Lal agrees that Hindus in Sindh are still afraid.

Saspal Das
Garish Kumar's grieving father, Saspal, wants justice

They are frightened to move outside freely. Some even put themselves under a self-imposed curfew after 2000 hours a few months ago.

"No-one is targeting the minorities," argues Kishanchand Parwani, Advisor for Minorities' Affairs to the Sindh Government.

But he admits that, although the minorities are supposed to be equal citizens according to the constitution, the reality is different. He accepts that they feel like second class citizens.

Garish Kumar's father, Saspal Das, still retains faith in the system: "I will fight till I get justice for my son."

But many Hindu families who stayed in Pakistan after partition have already lost faith and migrated to India

This BBC report provides the correct evaluation of Hindus in Pakistan-

"Pakistan is home to some 2.5 million Hindus, 95% of them living in the southern Sindh province.

Most are poor, low-caste peasants.

However there are also some successful upper caste businessmen. In Sindh, they are a hot commodity for bandits.

They lack the protection afforded to local tribal Muslims."

Hindus are dhimmi slaves , bonded labours or under protection of momeen goons!!
That is the way Pakistan has SOLVED the communal problem.

ISlamIslam#49:

May not be for IAS or IPS but you would perhaps agree that approach is needed for lower level posts.

And don't be simplistic about madrassas; Indian madrassas can be quite good; in fact, a report last week showed that Madrassa Board students show a 91% success rate, better than any other board than ICSE;

"Bihar madrassa board next only to ICSE: Report
25 Feb 2008, 0157 hrs IST,TNN

MUMBAI: Here's something for Maharashtra Navanirman Sena's Raj Thackeray as well as his uncle and inspiration, the founder of Shiv Sena, Bal Thackeray, to chew on: If class X students from across the country were to take a common exam, who would perform the best?

Believe it or not, students from Bihar's madrassa board would stand high, second only to students of the ICSE board in Delhi.

Comparing the performance of educational boards across India, the HRD ministry has just released a report on student performance in various states in class X.

The results have the Council for the Indian School Certificate Examination in Delhi topping with the highest pass percentage of 94.3%, followed by Bihar State Madrassa Board with a success rate of 91.4%. The Central Board of Secondary Education, Delhi, stands third with a pass percentage of 86.4%.

The report compares 2005 data across the country. Madhav Chavan, founder of educational non-profit Pratham, said the findings contradict the "stereotype that madrassas are religious training schools". It vindicates "the historical view" that a voluntary process of education that involves progressive elements in a society coming forward to educate the backward sections often results in a successful model for formal education, he said.

Unlike other boards with a large student base, both the ICSE and madrassa boards have lower student populations taking the exam. States like Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, West Bengal have lakhs of students sitting for the class X exam.

Peggy Mohan, a linguist and a former JNU professor, said that the madrassa board, being run on a smaller scale, was probably more flexible than such "regimented state boards".

Some experts countered that boards handling lakhs of students see a diverse mix whose results may vary on the basis of several factors. Basanti Roy, divisional secretary of Mumbai, Maharashtra State Board of Secondary and Higher Secondary Education, said of the approximately 15 lakh students who took the class X exam in the state, a large population came from the rural hinterland which lacked good teachers.

The state board thus enjoyed higher success rates in smaller, urban pockets."

laddu#various:

Do you think that it is possible to find several cases of Muslim persecution in India as well? Just go to any Indian Muslim website, such as Milligazette.

Re: # 54

Dm ji,

That was a tu quoque fallacy.

Yes, there are cases of minority prosecution in India. But that is irrelevant to the argument.

I just refuted your and Kaale Khan's suggestion that Pakistan or Islam SOLVES the communal problem!!!

laddu#56:

One might say that Hindus have now started whining because of 8 years of "enlightened Islam" rule Of Musharraf.

Re: # 21
The foundation of Indian Constitution is very good. Special privilege and protection for ethnic minorities should be part of a decent democracy. But, that should not include moslems, sikhs, christians. Some ethnic groups in north east, who are very few in number, should enjoy such privilege. Instead of protecting their rights and cultural identity, we are busy promoting mediaval middle east culture (Islam/Christianity). Now, the actual vulnerable groups are struggling to survive its culture against Christian missionaries. RSS has also joined the bandwagon. Orissa, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh , MP. The identification of minority was the basic problem. I have heard that J N's father was clerk under a moslem lawyear. So, he had to pay gratitude towards moslems.
I am not blaming muslims for their problem. But, the social condition, what we have inherited from British, was not better. Those who were ahead during that period, they have benifitted more. Muslim backwardness was an issue during British period also.
Coming back to Deoband, do we need it now? What is the implication of this fatwa? Does police, court, parliament recognise it?
DM, you were talking about Tamils in Srilanka and Malayasia. In these countries, Tamils are discriminated. Even if Tamils are less in number, they do not want any favour. The same rule should apply for every citizen in these countries. Backwardness of native Sinhalese and Malays has prompted the Govt. to adopt such policy ( preference in jobs for Malays and Sinhala people). But, when that exceeds limit, it creates unrest.
Regarding Jihad in India, I am expecting that very soon. The bad example of Bangladesh and Pakistan may repeat in India. Huge amount of Middle East money invested in mosques and madressahs will produce some sort of animals, which will not be able to integrate with Indian society and culture. The more crude oil price increases, more the problem will be visible. Europe in sensing it now.

#54 Posted by dost_mittar on March 12, 2008 8:47:27 pm

muslims claim persecution in every country that is non-muslim....

if you set the koolaid aside for a minute, do you think, perhaps, the problem is with muslims themselves?

#53 Posted by dost_mittar on March 12, 2008 8:44:17 pm

well...given that, azim premji and the lack of indians in gitmo, i'd say things are pretty good for muslims...

can't have it both ways...

Re: # 58

nkg,

The most advanced and coordinated jihadi recruitment was for the afghan war. Not even a single indian was found in guntanamo, while muslims from australia to sweden were there. No doubt, the ones from teh west were seeking adventure.

The fact is that for the indian muslims, there are role models, and they can see that with studies and hard work, they can come up. For the pakistanis, they have no hope, all that they see is corruption and they beleive that jihad will get them out, a true sharia implementation will be the road to prosperity.

That is why there is no way out for pakistan, other than a true jihadic war.

I am not aware of the situation in Pakistan. But the situation in Bangladesh is pretty poor. Any decent Bengali family are target of moslems. First they will create such a situation that, you will not be able to live peacefully there. The final assault will be on young girls. I know couple of Bangladeshi girls, who are married in border districts of West Bengal (24 PGS, Nadia etc.) in quite young age ( bellow 18). They simply emulate Muhammed, the barbarian and his co-robbers. The only way left for the wretched families are to submit or leave BD and settle in West Bengal. The total population of Bengalees has reduced from nearly 35% to less than 10% now. And the number is reducing...I am pretty sure, this barbarism can be defeated by whites....

Re: # 61
Most of the muslims in India were busy for food, shelter etc...When Arab $ takes care of it, they will fight for Islam. So, far, flow of Arab $ was concentrated in Pakistan and Bangladesh. BD is now turing into another Afg. It has taken around 20 years to arabize BD ( they have fought for the language and script they have inherited from their ancestors. Now, everywhere, they use Arabic. Radical change happened in last 20 years.) Such can happen in India also. Even 2 years back, people of Karnataka have never expected this islamists/jihadists in their soil. But it is reality now. Muslims are muslims after all. You can domesticate a dog and make it eat milk, biscuit, rice, dal etc...sleep on sofa etc... but that does not turn it into human. Given opportunity, you can not stop the dog from eating shit....

nkg:

Indian Muslims are double victims. First, they are victims of Nehruvian policies which encouraged them to have a separate, ummah oriented identity instead of becoming part of the Indian mainstream. Secondly, they are victims of the Hindu nationalists who still believe in the two nation theory and dont accept muslims as full fledged Indians.