The Naval War College Bomb Blasts

Correction: I meant 77% of undivided Kashmir (not J&K) was Muslim.

Inveterate liars with Islamo-fascist (i.e. Islamist) sympathies keep lying by omission about the Kashmir issue. When India was partitioned, 77% of Undivided J&K was Muslim. 23% was Hindu. Many (maybe a majority) of Muslims wanted a separate state for themselves. HINDUS DID NOT.

Therefore it was NOT a demand for separation based on ETHNICITY - it was a demand for separation based on RELIGIOUS IDENTITY.

It was not a Kashmiri freedom struggle. It was a MUSLIM Kashmiri freedom struggle.

But putting it this way would lose it the sympathies of many unsuspecting and idealistic people in this world. So as usual, Muslims have used deception and lies to forward their case.

Aleph Null: I guess we disagree on our subjective interpretations of TAhmed the individual rather than any substantative arguements. So, there really is no point in engaging further. Agree with your second paragraph.

"contrast to them with elections in rest of India was stark and shocking."

How, anil ji? Most of us have little knowledge of how these elections and rigging in them were (shockingly) worse than what has happened in many parts of India and Pakistan since 1947.

Re: # 177

Stuka:

Let us analyze Indian short comings in its treatment of its Kashmiri citizens.

Political:
This wave of Kashmiri unrest really started as a result of massive rigging of 1987 elections. Yasin Malik and others who turned to violence were election officers in these elections, contrast to them with elections in rest of India was stark and shocking.

It really takes a few dedicated and intelligent people to make a movement. This was a God given opportunity for Pakistan. There has never been any love lost between India and Pakistan on Kashmir.

Indian Policy:
Indian policy in Kashmir has been driven by reaction to Pakistan's failed attempts in 1948, and 1965. It has centered on appeasement of few, and providing subsidized essential goods. To achieve above objective, the center never hesitated to imprison popular leaders like Sheikh Abdullah, and rig elections. There was no economic development program; even educational institutions were significantly missing. Center instead depended on providing subsidized essential goods. There were only two shops in Connaught Place who sold Kashmiri Carpets, thus very little economic benefit flowed into Kashmir.

Aspiration of new generation:
New generation of Kashmiri, like Yasin Malik participated in elections, and indeed were polling agents. Thru it they demonstrated their intentions to be part of Indian pie. By any measure, methods used with prior generation in Kashmiris could not have been used in the rest of India.

The center did not get a chance to correct; the angry Kashmiris were wooed by Pakistan. Indian decade really had not started at that time.

Transition:
1990s was a tough period for India, it started off by India mortgaging its gold with Bank of England to start liberalization.

This gave Musharraff a hope to go for Kargil misadventure. Honestly, it is quite easy to see here on Chowk, why Vajpayee's genuine attempt was seen as India's weekness by Musharraff. Even though the U.S. ambassadors in both countries had started telling Pakistani government and Army that India can keep upping the ante, just as the U.S. did with Soviet Union. I do not know how much effect this had on Pakistani Army.

Soon 9/11 arrived. I recall a talk Jaswant Singh had given in the U.S. where he confidently foresaw that as far as Pakistan is concern, Kashmir is now beyond Pakistan’s reach. I have personally known India's High Commissioner to Islamabad of the time, who later became India's special envoy to Afghanistan for reconstruction. He name is Satinder Lambah. He said that Pakistan has deeper internal fissions, military keeps them controlled with Kashmir, and now Pakistan must face a new reality of negative strategic depth, as it pulls back from its Taliban Support. A blow back that comes as Pakistan recedes from Afghanistan. On the side, Satti’s nana was a prominent industrialist in Peshawar. He conceived TiE at my home where first wave TiE members; Suhas Patil etc. were all present. Satti is one astute player. His informal comment was echoing Jaswant Singh's. We now read about this blow back, and these comments were made about six years ago.

Great time to integrate:
Last Kashmir war cost India, besides lives, about $110 million per day to fight. Indian economy can sustain a war of attrition there, if necessary. This is insurance for India. Kashmir does not need this. It needs infrastructure to integrate with rest of India more than that road to nowhere from Kargil.

Hydro electric power generation is a way toward economic integration with India. This power needs to be delivered into Bkhara-Nangal grid so that it reach power hungry center in NOIDA-Delhi-Gurgaon belt. With economically integrated, and market access to Kashmir’s crafts, educational centers in Srinagar and Jammu at par with rest of the country, Kashmiri’s have very little need of Pakistan. It is not difficult for them to see where Pakistan is today, and where rest of India is today. It is green-energy Kashmir has. Latest National Geographic has an article how hydro-electricity there is bring the cleanest energy aluminum plant to that remote part on the Earth.

With such sensible approach, it would only make Pakistan compete with India more. I have personal experience of this Pakistani passion. I went to a Pakistani fund raising dinner in Silicon Valley, my Pakistani friend suggested that I should go and give the donation. The donations were going very slowly till then. I made my pledge, next the organizers came over and asked me to come to the stage and make speak. Obviously they announced my pledge. After that the pledged amount more than doubled in matter of few minutes. Ras Siddiqui was there. This competition will only make Pakistanis spend more money in their Kashmir, and may even have better roads there than Indian Kashmir. The war and testosteronic completion can move from battle field to elsewhere.

stuka #205

{{Because neither he nor any other Pakistani who has a view point at variance with the comprehensive ideology of Pakistan as defined by Mullah Military Alliance has anything to do with the establishment's proxy war.}}

With respect, that is a little too cute. Sahib might not have initiated the proxy war on his own but he had no qualms pretending for years that his country had nothing to do with it, berating every Indian who brought it up as a hate-monger, throwing Gujarat in their faces as though that would cancel out what his country was up to, etc. At some point he becomes complicit by inaction and stonewalling.

Let us be fair – this does not apply to every well-connected Pakistani. Ejaz Haider quite openly wrote an article in TFT five years ago entitled 'Sectarianism and State Strategy' examining the linkages between Pakistan's Kashmir policy and proliferation of sectarian organizations in Pakistan, and considering the dilemmas this posed for the Pakistani establishment. The likes of hamidm, ali_1, urstruly would have no problem acknowledging a Pakistan-based and supported jihad in J&K, of which they thoroughly approve. Their only regret would be that it has not succeeded in its aims.

{{Aleph Null, would u gratefully acknowledge the Hindus who participated in the riots of Gujarat?}}

Stuka, I would never claim that the mobs who burnt Muslims alive, ripped pregnant womens bellies open, performed all manner of unspeakable atrocities, are not Indians. Like it or not, they are my fellow countrymen; they don't cease do be so because they are an embarrassment or worse to me. Squarely facing the facts is the first step in changing anything for the better.

{{Often in fact, he finds himself in the typical place of a moderate Muslim - a rock and a hard place.}}

He finds himself in the typical pose of a moderate Muslim – with his head buried ostrich-like in the sand, or immersed up to the neck in the river in Egypt.

"Pakistan Army masterminded both kind of jihads and their surrogates enlisted students from all over the country. I know guys from Karachi University who went to Afghanistan for training and then went to LOC to wage jihad"

True. I just made the point that there was a Kashmir insurgency much before there was a "Jihad". Pakistan masterminded the transformation of an ethno-nationalist insurgency into a "Jihad" with unfortunate consequences. This is by far the best article I have read on the Kashmir issue. It is extremely factual - more so than anything I have read elsewhere. It is written by AG Noorani.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1720/17200800.htm

"actually it is your fault that your incompetent army didn't kill them all and now we have to suffer the consequences ......
"

Raw is from Karachi. But maybe HamidM is alluding to Raw's Mohajir origin?

"Why are you trying to disown these people and their deeds? "

Because neither he nor any other Pakistani who has a view point at variance with the comprehensive ideology of Pakistan as defined by Mullah Military Alliance has anything to do with the establishment's proxy war.

"Shouldn't you gratefully acknowledge the supreme sacrifice of those jihadis who embraced shahadat, and the energy and enterprise of the operatives who controlled them, all to further your country's strategic goals and the material interests of well-connected elite Pakistanis like you? "

Aleph Null, would u gratefully acknowledge the Hindus who participated in the riots of Gujarat? There is no equivilance of the action per se - but there is an equivilance of attitude. In the suburbs of Delhi, I have met many "elite Indians" who enhutsiastically supported the actions of the rioteers. In the very same suburbs, I have met many who severely condemnended them. Often, in the same room. Two sets of Indians divided by beliefs. We therefore are answerable only for our own convictions, beliefs and actions. One can disagree with TAHMED but not accuse him of Jihadi sympathies. Often in fact, he finds himself in the typical place of a moderate Muslim - a rock and a hard place.

Tahmed:

"One question: what do you think started Stage I? Was this the initiative of the Pakistan army (proxy war, along the lines in afghanistan against soviets), or that of the Indian government (changing the constitution to allow non-kashmiris to invest in kashmir)? "

Neither. I think u are mistaken about the second part of your question - The Article 370 still applies which limits land ownership rights to Kasshmiris alone and puts limitations on Non Kashmiris. What was changed was in 1953 itself - the removal of Kashmir's special status and its integration in to India. That did not lead to much in terms of agitation because of the presence on Article 370. The issue that started Stage 1 was the flawed election of 1987 when Rajeev Gandhi (Congress) and Abdullah (National Front) conspired against an upstart party called Muslim Front. There was booth capturing and mass arrests of MUF candidates and supporters. Yasin Malik who headed JKLF and Mohammad Yusuf Shah (known as Syed Salahuddin of Hizb ul Mujahideen now) were both candidates. After the elctions, thousands of youth supporters of MUF fled to Pakistan where they were obviously welcomed by Pakistani intelligence. The key issue is that what Pakistani intelligence failed to do in 1965 (INITIATE A LARGE INTERNAL UPRISING) India itself created in 1987-88.

DM: I did not mention it because its not very relevant. Pak supported JKLF before that as well. They just switched to Hizb later. Pakistan made two strategic errors - the genuine aspiration of people in Kashmir was for independence and not merger with Pak and they should have kept on supporting Kashmiri independence thereby paying India back for Bangladesh. The other was transforming a Kashmiri insurgence into a Punjabi dominated relgious one. The LeT and JeM never mastered much mass support.

although ultimately I believe both factors had a hand (and no doubt the "proxy war" started by "our" people has done incredible damage and is now a Frankenstein monster for Pakistan), but I am just curious on how it was initially triggered.

tahmed32 #186

{{Was this the initiative of the Pakistan army (proxy war, along the lines in afghanistan against soviets), or that of the Indian government (changing the constitution to allow non-kashmiris to invest in kashmir)?}}

After all these years on Chowk this savant still believes that the Indian government “changed the constitution” to “allow non-Kashmiris to invest in Kashmir.” He is completely incapable of learning.

{{although ultimately I believe both factors had a hand (and no doubt the "proxy war" started by "our" people has done incredible damage and is now a Frankenstein monster for Pakistan}}

Sahib, why do you insist on using quotation marks in referring to the fighters in proxy war? Madarsa-educated Pakistani jihadis from Sialkot, Gujranwala, Bahawalpur etc. were good enough to fight and die in the jihad against the Indian state in Jammu and Kashmir. Their trainers and handlers were employed and directed by organs of the Pakistani state with the full knowledge and approval of the highest levels of your country's establishment. Why are you trying to disown these people and their deeds? Shouldn't you gratefully acknowledge the supreme sacrifice of those jihadis who embraced shahadat, and the energy and enterprise of the operatives who controlled them, all to further your country's strategic goals and the material interests of well-connected elite Pakistanis like you?

zee:

"The americans picked up the name because they needed one for the 9/11 inquiries."

The name was used earlier also; when missiles were fired at obl in afghanistan and also when he was in sudan.

stuka#177:

You left out a significant element in phase 2; the hizb could only defeat jklf because it had the backing of Pakistan.

hamidm:

"raw dust mian,

actually it is your fault that your incompetent army didn't kill them all and now we have to suffer the consequences ...... "

After all these years, you don't seem to realise that raw-dust is not from the wrong side of the border.

hamidm2: you're being too smart by half. so indian army should keep killing poor kids of a lohar, mochi, qasai, dhobi and middle-class bhayya kids who ended up being brainwashed by Jamiat-e-Tulba and got sent to Muridke, Khost and then to the gates of paradise, Srinagar. Do you cantonment guys ever own up to anything?

Re: # 196

raw dust mian,

... don't take my name in vain ... i have already admitted that it was a bad mistake to let these jihadis come back over the loc..... actually it is your fault that your incompetent army didn't kill them all and now we have to suffer the consequences ......

Re: # 195

GT,

.... there is a saying in punjabi: chadar meri chal muchali, tusi baran tey mein ik akali ........ tahmed mian, affectionntely know as prophetboy by arjun mian, fits this bill ..... he is putting up a good fight on all fronts but i am afraid he will get killed - you cannot pick a fight with everyone and expect to win .....

.....he should be like me - i picked a fight with khalid poser(who?)and drove him into obivion; then i picked a fight with mad masadi and i have him on the ropes - it is only a matter of time before he is completely vanquished .....

..... but there are some people even i don't dare to pick a fight with - people like the amazing arjun and the durable dheet, romair mian (aka bulleya) ....... messing with these two is like stepping into a pile of fresh cow doo with wasps nesting in it! ..... tahmed is a good man but he will end up with cow doo all over his shoes and hornets up his knickers .....