Pakistan: The War of Drones
Pervez Hoodbhoy March 10, 2008
#777 Posted by ahmedmadani on March 16, 2008 7:42:36 am
Re: # 723 Why Azarbaijanies do not even make noise about the lost area of Nagarno Karabagh. In Ummah meetings many oppressions are lamented and detailed ( palestine etc) but Kashmir and Nagarnokarabagh are just little reference. Have azeris lost interest ? Why Iran is always supportive of Armenians than azeris are there any money interests coming in way ?
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#776 Posted by ahmedmadani on March 16, 2008 7:25:10 am
Re: # 748
Thanks for information.
It is said by some dr najeeb and his brother were almost about to be flown to India from UN protective compound and pakistan secret servuice and CIA got wind of that and made immediate move and executed them and made counter coup against RAW. Najeeb was considered dangerous by ISI and CIA was young and could have influence in future. It is romoured that his family was flown to India and secretly living there ?
THanks, your post are informative and subtle in many ways.
It is said Dostam sabotaged Najeeb , but he fought afterwards against ISI and taliban. Is there possibility like partition of afghanistan like partition of British Raj along Tajik, Uzbek,... etc nations. Do Uzbekistan, Tajikistan etc have interest in partition ?
These are questions you can answer if possible.
Thanks again for your contribution
Thanks for information.
It is said by some dr najeeb and his brother were almost about to be flown to India from UN protective compound and pakistan secret servuice and CIA got wind of that and made immediate move and executed them and made counter coup against RAW. Najeeb was considered dangerous by ISI and CIA was young and could have influence in future. It is romoured that his family was flown to India and secretly living there ?
THanks, your post are informative and subtle in many ways.
It is said Dostam sabotaged Najeeb , but he fought afterwards against ISI and taliban. Is there possibility like partition of afghanistan like partition of British Raj along Tajik, Uzbek,... etc nations. Do Uzbekistan, Tajikistan etc have interest in partition ?
These are questions you can answer if possible.
Thanks again for your contribution
#775 Posted by tahmed32 on March 16, 2008 7:23:01 am
1Safe #755: sorry i missed your question to me. The short answer is: We shall find out in the months following the new government takes over.
Personally, I think the new government has no choice but to get serious in fighting terrorists. And, freed from musharraf's politics and War on Lawyers (they even bugged the judge's homes!!), Pakistan has ample resources (even ignoring NATO) needed to take out the terrorists. (in iraq remember that in iraq bush had brilliantly destroyed the police/military infrastructure initially. and realized its mistake after 2-3 years after much damage was done.).
That is just my opinion of course. Hope it makes some sense.
Personally, I think the new government has no choice but to get serious in fighting terrorists. And, freed from musharraf's politics and War on Lawyers (they even bugged the judge's homes!!), Pakistan has ample resources (even ignoring NATO) needed to take out the terrorists. (in iraq remember that in iraq bush had brilliantly destroyed the police/military infrastructure initially. and realized its mistake after 2-3 years after much damage was done.).
That is just my opinion of course. Hope it makes some sense.
#774 Posted by ferozk on March 16, 2008 7:21:57 am
re: bulleya
It is a mistake to assume that Al Qaeda will cease its attacks on Pakistan if Pakistan leaves GoT. Al Qaeda is not interested in Islam or sharia but in gaining territory from which to continue its ideological mission. Pakistan offers that territory to Al Qaeda and in this mission, Al Qaeda is indifferent to the long term fate of Pakistan or Pakistanis.
Before 9/11, Al Qaeda did not need Pakistan because it had Afghanistan and Sudan. If not Pakistan, where do you think it will go? Back to Afghanistan? Iraq? Sudan? There was no reason for it target Pakistan pre-2001 but now, it wants to destablize Pakistan in order to gain a sanctury from which to sustain its logistical structure. FATA offers it the price and it will not leave it even if Pakistan leaves the GoT.
It would be criminally foolish and not to mention naive to think that appeasement is answer for aggression. It never is. Al Qaeda's leadership is ideologically motivated and it is not interested in peace treaties or compromies. It sees Pakistan and Pakistanis as weak and as kafirs and not as equals in the struggle against non-believers.
You said and quote, "so, please feel free to fight them wherever you want....just not in pakistan........my suggestion would be for them to fight it out in michigan, or for you to fight it out with them, by joining the us army, in afghanistan"
This is downright stupid! You fight the enemy where the enemy is and not where the enemy is not!!!! The battle ground is Pakistan and make no mistakes about it, Pakistan will suffer because our government by their past actions have sowed what we must now reap - the sins of our intolerances. The world will little think about Pakistan or its sovereignity and if the choice is between its future and Pakistan's; then Pakistan will lose and twice on Sunday!
Ciao
It is a mistake to assume that Al Qaeda will cease its attacks on Pakistan if Pakistan leaves GoT. Al Qaeda is not interested in Islam or sharia but in gaining territory from which to continue its ideological mission. Pakistan offers that territory to Al Qaeda and in this mission, Al Qaeda is indifferent to the long term fate of Pakistan or Pakistanis.
Before 9/11, Al Qaeda did not need Pakistan because it had Afghanistan and Sudan. If not Pakistan, where do you think it will go? Back to Afghanistan? Iraq? Sudan? There was no reason for it target Pakistan pre-2001 but now, it wants to destablize Pakistan in order to gain a sanctury from which to sustain its logistical structure. FATA offers it the price and it will not leave it even if Pakistan leaves the GoT.
It would be criminally foolish and not to mention naive to think that appeasement is answer for aggression. It never is. Al Qaeda's leadership is ideologically motivated and it is not interested in peace treaties or compromies. It sees Pakistan and Pakistanis as weak and as kafirs and not as equals in the struggle against non-believers.
You said and quote, "so, please feel free to fight them wherever you want....just not in pakistan........my suggestion would be for them to fight it out in michigan, or for you to fight it out with them, by joining the us army, in afghanistan"
This is downright stupid! You fight the enemy where the enemy is and not where the enemy is not!!!! The battle ground is Pakistan and make no mistakes about it, Pakistan will suffer because our government by their past actions have sowed what we must now reap - the sins of our intolerances. The world will little think about Pakistan or its sovereignity and if the choice is between its future and Pakistan's; then Pakistan will lose and twice on Sunday!
Ciao
#772 Posted by tahmed32 on March 16, 2008 6:57:46 am
bulleya: i see you repeat your earlier claim that al qaeda will stop attacking pakistan if pakistan stops fighting them. in doing so, you ignore what i #743 which was addressed to you and you did not respond. so let me repeat - are you prepared to cede fata and the people there to al qaeda rule? yes or no.
#771 Posted by bulleya on March 16, 2008 6:42:02 am
hamidm mian #: "do you really believe that if we left the taliban, al-qaeda and the other riff raff alone that they will stop their murder and mayhem?..."
....depends on how you define, "we"......if you define we to be americans and the usa, then you are correct, they will not leave you alone.....they hate you too much, and feel you have killed far too many of their innocents.....
on the other hand, if by, "we" you mean pakistanis and pakistan, then they will leave pakistan alone.....uptil 9/11, they had nothing against pakistan, and now, they do....once pakistan backs out of gwot, it will be back to status quo......
...i still long for the days, when the biggest fear in pakistan consisted of burning cd's, headshaving football teams in shorts, smuggling cars to bara and beyond, and raiding of massage parlors......
that was a lot better than bombs going off in super market and model town.......
so, please feel free to fight them wherever you want....just not in pakistan........my suggestion would be for them to fight it out in michigan, or for you to fight it out with them, by joining the us army, in afghanistan......
personally speaking, i don't the usa military, nato or the pakistan military has any stamina or desire left to fight them anywhere......it's impossible to fight a bomb dropped from 10,000 feet or a suicide bomber.......
....depends on how you define, "we"......if you define we to be americans and the usa, then you are correct, they will not leave you alone.....they hate you too much, and feel you have killed far too many of their innocents.....
on the other hand, if by, "we" you mean pakistanis and pakistan, then they will leave pakistan alone.....uptil 9/11, they had nothing against pakistan, and now, they do....once pakistan backs out of gwot, it will be back to status quo......
...i still long for the days, when the biggest fear in pakistan consisted of burning cd's, headshaving football teams in shorts, smuggling cars to bara and beyond, and raiding of massage parlors......
that was a lot better than bombs going off in super market and model town.......
so, please feel free to fight them wherever you want....just not in pakistan........my suggestion would be for them to fight it out in michigan, or for you to fight it out with them, by joining the us army, in afghanistan......
personally speaking, i don't the usa military, nato or the pakistan military has any stamina or desire left to fight them anywhere......it's impossible to fight a bomb dropped from 10,000 feet or a suicide bomber.......
#770 Posted by bulleya on March 16, 2008 6:41:58 am
hamidm mian #: "do you really believe that if we left the taliban, al-qaeda and the other riff raff alone that they will stop their murder and mayhem?..."
....depends on how you define, "we"......if you define we to be americans and the usa, then you are correct, they will not leave you alone.....they hate you too much, and feel you have killed far too many of their innocents.....
on the other hand, if by, "we" you mean pakistanis and pakistan, then they will leave pakistan alone.....uptil 9/11, they had nothing against pakistan, and now, they do....once pakistan backs out of gwot, it will be back to status quo......
...i still long for the days, when the biggest fear in pakistan consisted of burning cd's, headshaving football teams in shorts, smuggling cars to bara and beyond, and raiding of massage parlors......
that was a lot better than bombs going off in super market and model town.......
so, please feel free to fight them wherever you want....just not in pakistan........my suggestion would be for them to fight it out in michigan, or for you to fight it out with them, by joining the us army, in afghanistan......
personally speaking, i don't the usa military, nato or the pakistan military has any stamina or desire left to fight them anywhere......it's impossible to fight a bomb dropped from 10,000 feet or a suicide bomber.......
....depends on how you define, "we"......if you define we to be americans and the usa, then you are correct, they will not leave you alone.....they hate you too much, and feel you have killed far too many of their innocents.....
on the other hand, if by, "we" you mean pakistanis and pakistan, then they will leave pakistan alone.....uptil 9/11, they had nothing against pakistan, and now, they do....once pakistan backs out of gwot, it will be back to status quo......
...i still long for the days, when the biggest fear in pakistan consisted of burning cd's, headshaving football teams in shorts, smuggling cars to bara and beyond, and raiding of massage parlors......
that was a lot better than bombs going off in super market and model town.......
so, please feel free to fight them wherever you want....just not in pakistan........my suggestion would be for them to fight it out in michigan, or for you to fight it out with them, by joining the us army, in afghanistan......
personally speaking, i don't the usa military, nato or the pakistan military has any stamina or desire left to fight them anywhere......it's impossible to fight a bomb dropped from 10,000 feet or a suicide bomber.......
#769 Posted by tahmed32 on March 16, 2008 6:22:53 am
hamidm #761/#762: " the war against musharaf has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with the war against terrorism"
tell that to zawahiri - who is going all out to try and intimidate the new government now that the "mush umbrella" is gone. and spare me the namecalling - which is a sure sign that a man has only weak arguments.
Here is a question: What is common between you, musharraf and zawahiri?
Answer: Your contempt and underestimation of the Pakistani people.
Musharraf made the mistake of thinking he could intimidate them with his uniform and fake accent - and merely mad them mad enough to leave him kick out his "kings party" plus lotas and beards. Zawahiri will learn the hard way in due course that pakistanis are not arabs who tolerate "hosni mubaraks" and "pious hypocrites" a la saudi arabia as rulers. I dont know if you will ever learn though.
tell that to zawahiri - who is going all out to try and intimidate the new government now that the "mush umbrella" is gone. and spare me the namecalling - which is a sure sign that a man has only weak arguments.
Here is a question: What is common between you, musharraf and zawahiri?
Answer: Your contempt and underestimation of the Pakistani people.
Musharraf made the mistake of thinking he could intimidate them with his uniform and fake accent - and merely mad them mad enough to leave him kick out his "kings party" plus lotas and beards. Zawahiri will learn the hard way in due course that pakistanis are not arabs who tolerate "hosni mubaraks" and "pious hypocrites" a la saudi arabia as rulers. I dont know if you will ever learn though.
#768 Posted by arjun_5 on March 16, 2008 6:18:14 am
paki sovereignty being gang-banged...
I'll bet these guys are blackwater...
US forces cordon off hospital
Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD- American security personnel cordoned off the Shifa International Hospital after 11 US nationals injured in the Saturday evening blast were reportedly admitted there.
Although there was no official confirmation about the number of injured US nationals as the US Embassy could not be contacted. despite repeated attempts by The Nation, the other diplomatic sources placed the number falling between 7 and 11.
According to eyewitnesses 7 of the 11 injured Americans were rushed to the US Embassy and 4 admitted in the Federal Government Employees Hospital, were also later shifted to the Shifa International Hospital.
Soon after the bloody blast in a roadside Italian restaurant all members of the diplomatic community who had come to dine or shop in a relatively safe sector of the Capital rushed back to their homes in the Diplomatic Enclave.
According to police sources security personnel deployed at various entry points of the Diplomatic Enclave were alerted to check vehicles with more vigilance.
Meanwhile it was reliably learnt that the entire diplomatic community had suspended their movement schedules even within the Capital territory.
Embassies and High Commissions have sent urgent messages to their employees not to go out of the Diplomatic Enclave until further instructions from their respective governments.
All the diplomats residing outside the Diplomatic Enclave have been advised to shift to safer resorts.
A source also hinted at shifting of families of the families to their home countries if the security situation continues to deteriorate.
I'll bet these guys are blackwater...
US forces cordon off hospital
Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD- American security personnel cordoned off the Shifa International Hospital after 11 US nationals injured in the Saturday evening blast were reportedly admitted there.
Although there was no official confirmation about the number of injured US nationals as the US Embassy could not be contacted. despite repeated attempts by The Nation, the other diplomatic sources placed the number falling between 7 and 11.
According to eyewitnesses 7 of the 11 injured Americans were rushed to the US Embassy and 4 admitted in the Federal Government Employees Hospital, were also later shifted to the Shifa International Hospital.
Soon after the bloody blast in a roadside Italian restaurant all members of the diplomatic community who had come to dine or shop in a relatively safe sector of the Capital rushed back to their homes in the Diplomatic Enclave.
According to police sources security personnel deployed at various entry points of the Diplomatic Enclave were alerted to check vehicles with more vigilance.
Meanwhile it was reliably learnt that the entire diplomatic community had suspended their movement schedules even within the Capital territory.
Embassies and High Commissions have sent urgent messages to their employees not to go out of the Diplomatic Enclave until further instructions from their respective governments.
All the diplomats residing outside the Diplomatic Enclave have been advised to shift to safer resorts.
A source also hinted at shifting of families of the families to their home countries if the security situation continues to deteriorate.
#767 Posted by arjun_5 on March 16, 2008 6:14:21 am
HAHA...perfect response to paki protests on the previous airstrikes..you protest..oh yeah...protest this...
yoo hoo zeemax(or should I say grim faced zeemax)
Pakistan border strike 'kills 16'
map
At least 16 people have been killed in a missile strike on a building near Pakistan's northern border with Afghanistan, state television has said.
The attack took place in the South Waziristan region, where tribal militants are based, Reuters news agency reported residents as saying.
The Pakistani state TV report said several missiles destroyed the house of a suspected militant leader.
Reuters reported the military saying seven militants were among the dead.
"Initial reports suggest militants were hiding there and seven of them were killed and several wounded," an unnamed military official told the news agency.
A local tribesman said foreign militants were believed to be staying at the compound, in a village near Wana in South Waziristan.
"Militants have cordoned the blast site and are taking out bodies from the rubble," the tribesman told AFP news agency.
"The missile has left only part of a boundary wall intact and turned the compound into a pile of debris," he said.
War on militants
It was not clear who launched the strike.
A local tribesman, Rahim Khan, told the Associated Press that the missiles were fired from an unmanned drone aircraft.
US forces, operating in neighbouring Afghanistan, are believed to have been behind previous strikes in Pakistan's border region.
In February, at least 12 people - including suspected militants - were killed in a missile attack on a house near the Afghan border.
A month earlier, a senior al-Qaeda leader, Abu Laith al-Libi, was killed in a strike in North Waziristan.
The US considers strikes in the tribal border region - the heartland of al-Qaeda and the Taleban - to be vital in its war against Islamist militancy.
However, the Pentagon seldom confirms them, since Pakistan publicly opposes any US strike on its territory.
yoo hoo zeemax(or should I say grim faced zeemax)
Pakistan border strike 'kills 16'
map
At least 16 people have been killed in a missile strike on a building near Pakistan's northern border with Afghanistan, state television has said.
The attack took place in the South Waziristan region, where tribal militants are based, Reuters news agency reported residents as saying.
The Pakistani state TV report said several missiles destroyed the house of a suspected militant leader.
Reuters reported the military saying seven militants were among the dead.
"Initial reports suggest militants were hiding there and seven of them were killed and several wounded," an unnamed military official told the news agency.
A local tribesman said foreign militants were believed to be staying at the compound, in a village near Wana in South Waziristan.
"Militants have cordoned the blast site and are taking out bodies from the rubble," the tribesman told AFP news agency.
"The missile has left only part of a boundary wall intact and turned the compound into a pile of debris," he said.
War on militants
It was not clear who launched the strike.
A local tribesman, Rahim Khan, told the Associated Press that the missiles were fired from an unmanned drone aircraft.
US forces, operating in neighbouring Afghanistan, are believed to have been behind previous strikes in Pakistan's border region.
In February, at least 12 people - including suspected militants - were killed in a missile attack on a house near the Afghan border.
A month earlier, a senior al-Qaeda leader, Abu Laith al-Libi, was killed in a strike in North Waziristan.
The US considers strikes in the tribal border region - the heartland of al-Qaeda and the Taleban - to be vital in its war against Islamist militancy.
However, the Pentagon seldom confirms them, since Pakistan publicly opposes any US strike on its territory.
#766 Posted by CreateAlpha on March 16, 2008 6:08:25 am
College or pro-football hamidm?
I am thinking if you change the quran by removing all the jihadi shyte by the mid summer classic, then perhaps within one generatiion maybe the jihadi gene can be removed from the world. But it would mean, no cousin marriages and a lot of inter faith fking.
I am thinking if you change the quran by removing all the jihadi shyte by the mid summer classic, then perhaps within one generatiion maybe the jihadi gene can be removed from the world. But it would mean, no cousin marriages and a lot of inter faith fking.
#765 Posted by arjun_5 on March 16, 2008 6:06:46 am
#742 Posted by bulleya on March 16, 2008 4:03:12 am
...i have been around the world a couple of times now......i have yet to find any country whose citizens are so gung-ho in fighting other peoples' wars.
yeah...why did pakiland sign up for the WOT completely voluntarily? what was mushy thinking?
the only war, traditionally that pakistanis have (as their own) is with our friendly neighbors to the east
you lost all those wars...used to be, you won the wars against your own people...but even that has changed now..
where did the rest of the wars come from........why are explosions taking place in pakistan
yeah....why!! why!??!!..they should be taking place in nepal...that's where the jihadi infrastructure is..
doesn't matter which side wins, pakistanis lose and die......
sound good..
here is an idea......get out of every war
does that include the proxy war in kashmir that you are a big supporter of? you know..the proxy war for which the jihadis infrastructure was created?
and if you don't want to withdraw, then, first, go participate in those wars yourselves..
like you were so gung ho on doing after 9/11?
...i have been around the world a couple of times now......i have yet to find any country whose citizens are so gung-ho in fighting other peoples' wars.
yeah...why did pakiland sign up for the WOT completely voluntarily? what was mushy thinking?
the only war, traditionally that pakistanis have (as their own) is with our friendly neighbors to the east
you lost all those wars...used to be, you won the wars against your own people...but even that has changed now..
where did the rest of the wars come from........why are explosions taking place in pakistan
yeah....why!! why!??!!..they should be taking place in nepal...that's where the jihadi infrastructure is..
doesn't matter which side wins, pakistanis lose and die......
sound good..
here is an idea......get out of every war
does that include the proxy war in kashmir that you are a big supporter of? you know..the proxy war for which the jihadis infrastructure was created?
and if you don't want to withdraw, then, first, go participate in those wars yourselves..
like you were so gung ho on doing after 9/11?
#764 Posted by hamidm2 on March 16, 2008 6:02:23 am
Re: # 761
tahmed,
... do you have a better idea ?....... are you willing to have another football season being disrupted by a bunch of bedouins and sheep herder ? .......... i am simply exploring the possibilities and going nuclear is just one of them - another could be the re-conquest of mecca and a restoration of the idols in the kaaba ...... i think that is the best long-term solution, but i don't think it is possible before the football season starts ....
tahmed,
... do you have a better idea ?....... are you willing to have another football season being disrupted by a bunch of bedouins and sheep herder ? .......... i am simply exploring the possibilities and going nuclear is just one of them - another could be the re-conquest of mecca and a restoration of the idols in the kaaba ...... i think that is the best long-term solution, but i don't think it is possible before the football season starts ....
#763 Posted by arjun_5 on March 16, 2008 6:00:04 am
#691 Posted by zeemax on March 15, 2008 8:11:33 pm
If NATO keeps bombing tribals, their soft targets all over Pakistan will continue to be hit wherever these could be found.
US bombs the jihadis
jihadis respond by whacking pakis all over lahore, pindi and islamabad
US pressures the paki army to bomb the jihadis
jihadis respond by whacking pakis all over lahore, pindi and islamabad
and so on and so forth...
If this was a nuclear reactor, the situation would be like Chernobyl...meltdown by chain reaction...
If NATO keeps bombing tribals, their soft targets all over Pakistan will continue to be hit wherever these could be found.
US bombs the jihadis
jihadis respond by whacking pakis all over lahore, pindi and islamabad
US pressures the paki army to bomb the jihadis
jihadis respond by whacking pakis all over lahore, pindi and islamabad
and so on and so forth...
If this was a nuclear reactor, the situation would be like Chernobyl...meltdown by chain reaction...
#762 Posted by hamidm2 on March 16, 2008 5:56:36 am
Re: # 759
oh shut up, tahmed! ........ the war against musharaf has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with the war against terrorism .... it will still be going on when he leaves the scene in a couple of weeks-months ....... who are you going to blame when you don't have to kick around ? .... you are more senile than i thought !
oh shut up, tahmed! ........ the war against musharaf has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with the war against terrorism .... it will still be going on when he leaves the scene in a couple of weeks-months ....... who are you going to blame when you don't have to kick around ? .... you are more senile than i thought !