Pakistan: The War of Drones

#144 Posted by mohar11,

They showed it on Geo TV. I recorded it but it's in .irv format which can't be converted for uTube.

As for HP, who cares what he calls them? HP type views don't matter in the current paradigm.

Thanks, dr mohar, if you say so :)

"che, when Pavo mentions Human Rights as West's inescapable path of self destruction he probably does not mean human rights on Guantanamo Bay, but in the United States itself, or the European Mainland itself."

If it comes down to crunch time and theres bombs going off left and right in Western cities I don't think they will hesitate in sticking anything that looks like an ayrab into an internment camp.

"Once I argued that Pakistani liberals..."

This species has never really exercised any kind of political clout and will not for the foreseeable future. Any challenges faced will be by the beneficiaries of the current system (many of whom are raging islamofascists).

che, since this is an important topic, and I have a few more minutes to kill, one more post, with your permission :)

che, have you ever studied the dymanics of ecological competition? If you have any exposure to that field, you would know that there used to be a huge debate (which is still not dead; in academia few debates totally die!) on whether competing populations can change (or change fast enough) to avoid replacement by other populations.

History and a ton of different theoretical arguments say that populations can't/or rarely change (fast enough). They are simply replaced.

There are also basic theoretical issues with (or moral opposition to) change. If a population changes (in order to survive), is it still the same population? So, is change even a "good" thing? Or, should populations simply (be allowed) to die?

I take no positions here (or anywhere else). Just highlighting processes involved and some issues related to them.

Pavo (like Iqbal) is obviously betting on Western populations, for all manner of material and moral reasons, being unable to change fast enough, even if they do see the challenge.

Re: # 163 Che

Recognition of universal value of human rights inside and outside of own borders, especially for West, is guaranteed path to survival. More than 95% of deadly conflicts in the world today are caused by the double standards that West holds. A just global rule of law will eliminate deadly conflicts for good. Empowered, respected, and impartial global institutions like United Nations can save the world. Ironically they (West) themselves created such international institutions along with international law and they are the ones who never respected any of them.

Look! in every society, all laws are made to protect helpless and weak because a strong does not need law to protect itself; but paradoxically it is the stroger party that needs to be the most law abiding to keep peace in the society.

Currently, US needs a paradigm shift in its thinking. The 17th and 18th centuries of colonialism are long gone. Americans should have never inherited the legacy of European colonial powers after WWII. After the collapse of Soviet Union it further absolutely makes no sense. If Americans keep refusing to wake up to this reality, then I am afraid the results would not be less disastrous than the WWI and WWII all over again-but deadlier this time. The only constant in the world is change. It is time that Americans grow up to realize it.

Re: # 165

urstruly,

"Recognition of universal value of human rights inside and outside of own borders" ........

sounds good but let's start by allowing people to choose the religion of their choice without fear of being beheaded ..... totalitarian regimes, like those envisioned by people of your ilk, not only make life miserable for their own people but pose an existential threat to mankind - they have to be fought by all means .........

Re: # 166

In that case thou shalt not whine...

hamidm2, from Urstruly's point of view, the best outcome would be:

1. West guarantees human rights inside and outside of its own borders.
2. Believes, and more importantly, trusts, all others do the same in whatever they do.

That will offer Islamists everywhere, including those within the West, THE GREATEST ecological/competitive advantage against the West.

Kaal, I get what you're saying. Our bone of contention it seems is derived from my lack of faith in humanity. I go by the assumption that most people are maderchods especially those who have accumulated the kind of dominance that the Western political elite have (please tell me I don't sound like Masadi). So that is why I don't see the "change" (that is if I have understood the kind of change you're talking about correctly) required to combat a totalitarian ideology as being that much of a deviation from how the west has behaved in the past.

Please do post more when you have the time :)

Re: # 135

romair,

.... you are more clueless than arjun makes you out to be .... listen to yourself "how in the world do you know these people will not quit if pakistan disengages from gwot and/or america pulls out"

...... do you think that zeemax, urstruly, masadi, dr israr, the imam of the f-10 masjid, aneeq ahmed, shahid masood, hamid gul and the wenches of lal masjid will leave pakistan .......... the only people leaving will be fools like you - you will either leave or grow a beard and give up toilet paper ......

Re: # 165
Urstruly, agreed! However, all Empires have behaved in this way and there will eventually be a decline. But I don't see the Jihadi forces being a catalyst for this. I think WoT stuff is just bachodian for bored American Generals.

Re: # 168

kaal,

.... you are a bigger chakri than a ghan chakar ! .... i suspect you are a hindoo fundamentalist who is trying to mislead the stupid muslims into committing mass suicide so that you can have your revenge for all those centuries of humiliation suffered by your people ...... you are not playing the devil's advocate, you are the devil !

..... the west HAS guaranteed human rights inside and outside its borders, it just cannot and must not appease totalitarian despots in the making .......you cannot TRUST those who love death than we love life ... remember chamberlain ?......... never again !

Re: # 168 Eklavya

It works both ways. In the bargain West gets the comparative advantage because of their history and tradition of established institutions, rule of law, and technology. It is in fact win-win for all.

Sadly enough, it will take Third World War to eventually reach this conclusion anyway. But by then the social paradigm of a global village might change radically. My guess is that everyone will be miserable.

Kaal, do you thnk that the west, and US in particular, is stupid or that they won't tweak their system should they see islamists co-opting the system to their advantage? Since 9/11, US has changed the paradigm of engagement...the rallying cry for islamists was US presence in muslim countries...guess what..since 9/11 US is in more muslims countries, killing more islamists than ever before. All the while changing the laws to protect liberties inside america while not-offering the same to others.

this is the most innovative, smartest, richest, and flexible people in teh world who are not bound by dogma from a millenia ago to govern a rule of conduct..they have a disctince advantage over islamists.

All this self-masturbation around hypothetical and intangible perceived advantages you and the islamists are into mean nothing when you look at who you are up against. It is not just US, China, India, Russia, EU, Japan need the model in place as projected by the US for their growth. The islamists haven't a snowball's chance in hell.

oho, one more quick post!

chalta, the argument is: old populations can't/CHOOSE not to 'tweak' far enough and fast enough when faced with a challenge that is very different from what they are set up to face. All kinds of homeostatic processes kick in (for instance, chaltahai begins to complain everytime I even begin to discuss anything with neembu ji :)).

That is, a population's (people's) inner nature/character begins to work against it/them in limiting what it/they can or cannot do; or simply choose not to NOT do, prefering a 'glorious/moral' death.

Not saying that is bound to happen, but just issues to keep in mind.

Later...

kaalchakra,

upto a point you are right.

Any nation or groups of nations which err on the side of human rights is always ham-strung. Indeed this is what islamo-fascists rely on, and all their theories are based upon. It was this soft under-belly that they used to in vigil themselves into the systems outside their own little dirty worlds/countries. This is a version of the soft hindu attitude that many pakistanis have.

However, if you notice that these very human-rights issues are also being hammered home at home in the west - France and the burkah, similarly in the UK with the oath of allegiance to the Queen (going to be made compulsory) the various bio-finger printing programs of people. Turkey's re-interpretation project has not come off the hoof on turkeys own back! Indeed, they will have human rights at home but may not necessarily implement them outside to the fullest extent. These are immediate short terms measures.

In the long term, there will be a move away from dependency on the carbon-resources of the great unwashed from Morocco to Pakistan. technology is moving fast and very rapidly - and do not believe the stuff you read in papers (news) look around in the databases of published scientific work and you will see innocuous sounding papers, but mark my word you will be in for a surprise in the not too distant future. When this happens the doors will be more tightly shut.

ANother point you should note, is the any nation on earth worth its salt will not tolerate threats to its survival by fascists - they have dealt with Hitler and you know the outcome. They fire-bombed tokyo and Atomised vast tracts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - do not for one moment think they will not do it again in the name of human rights. They are more likely to do it in the name of Human Rights, but human rights in the threat posing countries and human rights of their nations to live as free men and women in pursuit of happiness.

In the end either the muslims have have to bend or they will be ghettoised in their own countries and squeezed till their pips squeak. Muslims have two options: enter the civilised world as partners or get .....