Pakistan: The War of Drones

hamidm writes,

".... to stop these human drones we have to go after their ideological leaders - deobandi mullahs like dr israr and zakir naik , crazy 'journalists', 'teachers' like masadi, generals like hamid gul and tv talk show hosts like aneeq ahmed and dr shahid masood ...... these are the people who are the root cause of this problem ...... once these people have been put away, the chilgoza gallery consisting of people like zeemax will melt away ........"

--I usually disagree with him on Chowk but this is the most intelligent thing he has said for a long time. When I saw the video clip on GEO News of the truck with the suicide bomber ramming into the gate of the FIA and crushing those two guards like flies, before going onto wreck even more carnage, I felt physically sick. This has nothing to fo with Islam. It is pure power politics. Someone mentioned Alamut and the Old Man of the Mountain. Those fanatic Shia Ismaili terrorists, high on hashish, also believed they would go to heaven by killing political leaders. Today's fanatics do the same. The Assassins were wiped out by the ruling powers of the day and the Muslim world was saved from an evil scourge. To save the world --and Pakistan in particular--we again need to exterminate the modern-day Assassins from the roots.

yes, the US has done a lot of imperialistic wrongs in the 3rd World but in that it is not alone amongst imperial powers...however two wrongs do not make a right. Nothing justifies blowing up busloads of innocent people in a cafe or restaurant or out to work or worshipping. Traditional Islam MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT.

These people are shayateen. No two ways about it. The ends NEVER justify the means for any really pious Muslim.

I think one of the traditionalist jurists --Abu Hanifa perhaps?--wrote the maxim that '100 years of endured tyranny is better than a single day of anarchy'. These terrorists are causing nothing but anguish and anarchy to the common man.

Hamidm sahib:

"...their ideological leaders - deobandi mullahs like dr israr and zakir naik , crazy 'journalists', 'teachers' like masadi, generals like hamid gul and tv talk show hosts like aneeq ahmed and dr shahid masood..."

You may have listed all the above in one place. Do you have reason to believe that this a centralized and complete list?

What if you have such profile in cells all over the body politic of Islamic Ummah, Arabia to Somalia, from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Sudan, just to name.

Would you not say then that the problem is mutated DNA?

Please read Naqshbandi sahib who calls it, "... "Traditional Islam" MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT..." I bet you and Naqshbandi sahib do not see anything wrong in this statement that I, and many like me, see.

Are you afraid that if you call them non-muslim, the population of muslims will go down? Or, many muslims lack courage to say that these are not muslims, and all muslims must stand up against them.

When people can call you non-muslim for exercising your eating preferences, why can the same not be done to call these savages who kill people, non-muslims?

The answer may be simple.

In Naqshbandi's mind they are muslims, but not "traditional muslims." You and he are unable to define and isolate the enemy clearly enough. Muslims may not let their daughters marry a non-muslims, but would allow their sons and daughters to do such "non-muslim", or "non-traditional muslim" acts?

Something is missing, and it is not people, it is the realization that Islam are created mutated DNA, which must be separated first and only then its carrier cells can be dealt. These are the people who carry the mutated DNA in the name of good DNA.

Finally, you forget your Islamic history. Whenever muslims stood up against non-muslims (for good or bad, let us not discuss it here), they annihilated non-muslims. Except against Hinduism, which is even more diffused, and always had its own mutations for as long as it has existed.

Please think about it. Are they muslim?

This is the most important question, that all muslims must answer. I know you do not care for the Ummah, but around you and rest of the world (now in muslim world too), and in its name, innocents are being killed. Until you and other intellectuals like Naqshbandis have the courage to isolate mutated DNA, you cannot target its carriers and cancer will fester.

I am aware that in the meantime, you and I will continue to enjoy our merlots, and gewurtztraminers, and the world will go around.

I hate to write anything just after anil ji's posts, but since I am going to speak (hopefully, honestly) as an Islamist, I guess that shouldn't be an issue.

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OK, let's assume that Western *society and *institutions* (not some scholars or officers working alone) will change fast enough and far enough to take up the challenge. :)

Were I an Islamist (I find that word meaningless, but let's stay with it), I would STILL laugh at the West, and simply ask:

FOR HOW LONG?!!

As an Islamist, I would KNOW that my *greatest strength* is just, simply, and only, NUMBERS. It doesn't matter how many in that number are naqshbanis, how many hamidms, and how many zees.

SO LONG AS the numbers grow, I will KNOW the outcome. I will keep making pulic affirmations of my beliefs and of my expectations from non-Muslims, and merely wait for the law of large numbers to kick in (if I am smart, I will keep the younger crowd in check as well).

Once the logic of larger numbers kicks in, I will have the WEST exactly where I would want it.

How long, in the face of my numbers, will they save their 'tough' laws, their anti-Islamic institutions, and their biased newspaper columns from me? :)

Heck, were I really so inclined, beyond a certain point in population growth, I could soon have kind-hearted non-Muslims helping me finger print other non-Muslims! :):)

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But things are not that bad. There is no need to fear the Islamic vision.

Islam's take over of Europe or America, or India, should that happen, won't be as bad as many fear. We will just have to haul off, in a body-bag, to the nearest dustbin, people like chaltahai, and make sure no new chaltahais live beyond the age of three years.

Given that there are billions or people, many dispapear every day, the loss of chaltahai should be no big deal.

Tragically, chaltahai is also essential to the spirit of West being West and to the Hindus being Hindus.

That, is unfortuantely is the fight that no one can escape, IMHO. In some places it will come sooner than in others.

zee

Does that mean HP is on your guillotine list?... Put him on the list - cut him up, that dude deserves it...

video of today's action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5x3Rxqz7h0

Kaal:

My point is why terrorists are not just terrorists, and dealt as such? Why call them "NOT" traditional Muslim?

Point to note is that it is Muslim intellectuals calling them "NOT" traditional Muslim etc., or denouncing all Islamic doctrines, and hence they accept a ghastly label to their religion. This seems like a binary selection when it should not be.

Only Tahmed sahib, here has recently started calling them otherwise, even kafir, if I am not wrong.

Few in the world classify or accept acts as easily with their religion, as is prevalent in Islamic societies. Labels come as easy fill in the blanks as "something, something" not Muslim, "something something" against Islam are more frequent even in common discussion. Only from Islamic world you most frequently hear or read about names like Christian armies, Jewish army, horrible hindoos etc. Even if their opponents would like to stereotype, why capitulate to such thinking?

Religion does not belong in public place, terror or not. It is so redundant there. Who can put this genie back in the personal space? Do Muslims easily put Islam first, whether by themselves, or in response to their antagonists?

Sounds to me like, "Sarfaroshi ki tammana ab humare dil mein hai”, even if it puts good DNA at the altar.

Why not call them terrorists? Of course, you can call them terrorists, just as someone else can call them true Muslims.

There is an important theoretical issue here. Only Allah knows what's in a person's heart, and only He can judge a person's Islam. So long as you are sincere, and believe you are doing God's bidding, no-one else can theoretically question you.

This is very different from Hinduism. In Hinduism, it doesn't matter what you think or your God thinks, or even what's God's judgement may be, you have to follow societal expectations, and be answerable to the society.

That's not always good. Societal expectations sometimes also make us do things that we may know in our hearts to be wrong.

#181 Eklavya

[OK, let's assume that Western *society and *institutions* (not some scholars or officers working alone) will change fast enough and far enough to take up the challenge. :)

Were I an Islamist (I find that word meaningless, but let's stay with it), I would STILL laugh at the West, and simply ask:

FOR HOW LONG?!!

As an Islamist, I would KNOW that my *greatest strength* is just, simply, and only, NUMBERS. It doesn't matter how many in that number are naqshbanis, how many hamidms, and how many zees.

SO LONG AS the numbers grow, I will KNOW the outcome. I will keep making pulic affirmations of my beliefs and of my expectations from non-Muslims, and merely wait for the law of large numbers to kick in (if I am smart, I will keep the younger crowd in check as well).

Once the logic of larger numbers kicks in, I will have the WEST exactly where I would want it.

How long, in the face of my numbers, will they save their 'tough' laws, their anti-Islamic institutions, and their biased newspaper columns from me? :)]

This is exactly the threat to humanity that I have been talking about.


[Heck, were I really so inclined, beyond a certain point in population growth, I could soon have kind-hearted non-Muslims helping me finger print other non-Muslims! :):)]

Yup. Stuka comes to mind, for example.


[But things are not that bad. There is no need to fear the Islamic vision.

Islam's take over of Europe or America, or India, should that happen, won't be as bad as many fear. We will just have to haul off, in a body-bag, to the nearest dustbin, people like chaltahai, and make sure no new chaltahais live beyond the age of three years.

Given that there are billions or people, many dispapear every day, the loss of chaltahai should be no big deal.

Tragically, chaltahai is also essential to the spirit of West being West and to the Hindus being Hindus.

That, is unfortuantely is the fight that no one can escape, IMHO. In some places it will come sooner than in others.]

It may not be so inevitable. Humanity will not give in without a fight. From speeches made by the heads of state like Tony Blair, George Bush and others, it's clear that people in the right circles are well aware and seriously worried about the danger. Countries like India don't matter, because lowlife traitors and turncoats (like Stuka for example) are everywhere in the political spectrum. But the west, as well as China and Russia, will be a different story.

I think the biggest blunder Americans could make at this point is to elect Barrack Hussain Obama as president. Successive US administrations have managed to keep the Islamic population to under 1% while declaring undying friendship towards Saudis and other oil-rich countries. With Barrack Hussein Obama, that might change - he might be the Trojan horse that helps inflate the Islamic population in the USA to more than 10% - the threshold above which Islamists start controlling the agenda with their communal voting. As France and the rest of Europe know too well - 10% is the magic number beyond which confrontation with Muslims becomes inevitable - in any country.

ajeya, my fear is that one day I will write something that will force you to conclude that I too am a traitor and turncoat.

So I will be upfront here. I think very highly of stuka, just as I think very highly of you, and of many other Hindu/Muslim, Indian/Pakistani friends. I try to understand things as they are, and let people pick and choose facts/arguments depending upon their own different value preferences.

What is certain is that someone or other on this side or that will always be upset and accusatory.

Hope that will be ok with you. Just thought it would be helpful to state that off the bat, not to put you on the spot. :)

Kaal, muslims live on earth not on some other planet where their belief system (however erroneous as that might be) has to interact wth other belief systems with greater resoucres, stronger institutions and a larger collective presence.

Your understanding of what muslims think perhaps encompasses even a further minority component of the muslim aggregate.(Zee types)

What makes you think that US cannot change or mobilize to fight islamists? Size is not a constraint.

CA, where will the US fight Islamists?

Agreed, size is no constraint.

Eklavya, your ecological competition interpretation assumes that Islamists are actually on the offensive and West needs to save itself...what makes you think it is not the opposite case... Islamists are afraid of the modern ideas of liberty, open debate, freedom to dish religion, personal freedom and economics etc...instead of changing (as china and india doing partially) they are resisting the change and fighting back. Majority of the muslim individuals are changing and adopting the dominant way (western) of life...islamists are struggling inside to cope with this change majority of the ummah is going through and accepting....it frightens the Islamists, they react, fight back want everyone to be more rigid...muslims today are more like kafirs in their behaviour, eating, social structure, clothing, professional inclinations etc than any time in the past...except the idealogical baggage.....if they think it as their strength think twice, others can come up with an equally brainwashing idealogies to counter them....remember idealogies are easy to manufacture...west can come up with counter idealogy(fascism as horrible as it is can put islamists in their place quickly....remember I am not advocating it..we are talking about survival of the populations here..if that scenario reaches that point) in a matter of decades.....but my feeling is as it goes with all idealogies, when they crumble they crumble fast...when that happens to islamists, muslims would range in type from hamidm to tahmed32...tahmed32 being considered ancient oddity.

kaal, which part of prior to 9/11 US presence in the muslim world and post 9/11 us presence in the muslim world escapes you? look around..the battle now where it should have been in the first place, within the muslim world. palestine, pakistan, greater middle east..the confrontation between the muslim world and the rest is abating because from phillippines to the US, islamists have been spanked. though legal means to control the local islamic fervor in UK for example..to US special ops working with the filipino army to smash teh Moro Lib front..Abu Sayyaf basically begging to be termed a political party. Jihaid coming into the open in pakistan..(whether pakistanis have the zeal and stomach 9which I think they do) to fight this scourge)..the battle fields are quite clear. Chechans have been bought..kashimir jihadis are talking about BPO industry in srinagar.

Muslims like Zee, while making good specimen for your social and lab experiment, do not have the staying power when facing the west or the rest of the world.

A while back I posted for yours and your benefit alone the essay titled "32' by Jarred diamond. therein lies the crux of the battle, religion is mere a sliver of the motivation...for every Zee there are 10 abduls driving around in delhi with ganesh bobblehead dolls on their dash.

zee's are losing this battle..a suicide bombing by islamists here and there is no different from fascist movements that has plagued humanity in diferent forms since time immemorial. last century alone with communism and nazism. all these movements are contrary to human needs and their very being. that is why they always fall apart...islamism is no different and it too will die a natural death, only exacerbated by violent confrontation by 5/6th of humantiy even if muslims themselves don't fight it.

Re: # 185

Kaal:

"..... and believe you are doing God's bidding, no-one else can theoretically question you...."

How accurate your above statement, does it stand the test of reality?

I have seen people here calling some Murtid. History has chronicled evidence of Murtids being put to death. How do you apply your statement to these facts. I have read of fatwas being issued, etc. etc. All projecting their personal judgments to the Ummah outside their personal space.

In fact I will go on to say, that if your statment is correct, then personal space will enrichen many with Islam, and personal judgments uttered for public (Ummah) consumptions will have very little following. This implies, suicide bombers will be terrorists, and no one will be able to teach them or lead them to violence in the name of religion.