Pakistan: The War of Drones

"As the mullah’s indoctrination gains strength, the power to reason weakens. The world of the follower becomes increasingly divided into absolute good and absolute evil. Doubt is replaced by certainty, moral sensibilities are blunted. Reduced to a mere instrument for murder, the human drone is left with no room for useless things such as judgment, doubt, or conscience."

Well said sir!

Once we get used to violent death, a deadening of affect follows; this makes it easier to do it again ourselves. The CIRCLE becomes complete! Who cares if it happens to be a "vicious crcle".

One of the interacters on another board described it to be "perfectly human", part of our nature apparently! In the same breath the opposite was described as "pascifism"; by the same token perhaps an "inhuman(?)" quality?

"As other human beings become mere objects rather than people deserving of love and compassion, the metamorphosis from human to drone becomes complete."

Thanks for describing a jihadi so succinctly. here on chowk the tahmed and zeemaxes are classifying the jihadis into the good kashmiri jihadi, the very good al quida jihadi and the not so good paki jihadi.

For a long time I have been arguing that jihadis are general purpose killers, de-sensitsed bipeds and they will kill for anything as long as he gets his order from the mullah.

Through this process of classification, the tahmed of the world have supported and sustained the jihadis.

Pervez ji,

Do something about the madarassa course. Talk about banning of medina verses from the Quran that is taught to the young.

Jihadism exists because even the worst perversities of Quran are considered the "Truths" and worthy of emulation.

Unless and until the process of cloning of Mohammad is stopped Jihadism would not end!!!

Pervez,

AS yet another bomb went of in Lahore, the article is very timely, but you are the only one person to have such views in pakistan. Wait for the posts by the ilks of YLH who will dismiss your views as exagerations. Nothing can be done, pakistan is doomed to be a jihadic state.

Now mushy has ordered a thorough enquiry, and he has specially ordered that the crime scene should not be washed with fire hoses. That is the tragedy of pakistan, when benazir was killed, the people in power did not want any one caught, now they want it, they want it when the general was killed.

From the mosques, from the madrassas the islamic leaders are calling for jihad, while the YLH of pakistan are telling that jihadis are only in the tribal areas, the abdul paki hates jihad. No sir, it is teh abdul paki, by his silence at the mosques, supporting the jihad, by giving those few rupees, paying for the jihad.

I look forward to the day when the parents of the paki jihadis will be honoured by the abdul pakis. Like the days of kashmir jihad, when there were posters of jihadis all over kashmir, the days when the hijackers were welcomed as heros in pakistan, I look forward to teh day when the generals killers photo will adorn the pak streets.

the day is not very far.

Re: # 4

"I look forward to the day when the parents of the paki jihadis will be honoured by the abdul pakis. Like the days of kashmir jihad, when there were posters of jihadis all over kashmir, the days when the hijackers were welcomed as heros in pakistan, I look forward to teh day when the generals killers photo will adorn the pak streets."

Allahu!!!

How do you punish a suicide bomber ?

Only way to disuade future potential suicide bombers is to punish the familes of the suicide bombers.

Re: # 4

I disagree that Mr Hoodbhoy is a lone voice jayp; I'd like to quote one of my favourite scientists Stephen Weinberg (co-Noble laureate with Dr Abdus Salam) on the power religious mythology has, how it can be mis-construed and can go un-questioned. This is an except take from a speech he made in Washington:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

The more I see what is going on around me, the more it affirms my thoughts on the destructive and inhuman side of "faith"; ancient fairytales backed by the concepts of skyfairies delivering private revelations to their chosen billy-goats; these in turn interpreted and sanctified by equally inadequate but vicious, self-appointed, self-riteous imbeciles!

Jayp,

(here on chowk the tahmed and zeemaxes are classifying the jihadis)

Tahmed sahib has never supported jihad or jihadis of any kind.

Zee sahib (if my understanding is right) tries to understand the root cause of all kinds of jihadis rather than blindly support or oppose all kinds.

Cheema sahib,

(But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion)

Depends on how you define religion. Lots of gud people have done evil things motivated by nationalism, race and ideology. Possibly more people have been killed in wars fought on national, racial and ideological lines than religious ones.

Regards

What? The suiciders are still at it? I remember I had sent out a memo to use remote-controlled IED's instead after the objections following the 'Pindi medicos bus attack! Total insubordination ...

Re: # 8

very true Majumdar Sahib, Religion is any old fanaticism, be it a hand-me-down god of ancient mythology or "on-the-spot" gods of race, tribalism (nationalism) etc. Problem is, unquestioned faith is the problem with the world today; it is another label humanity could have done without.

Problem with this site is people trying to split hairs! What I say makes perfect sense to anyone with a few brain cells, but rather than addressing the issues and coming up with something constructive or remotely intelligent, "baal ki khaal utaarne lag jaate hein".

Now if we want to bury our heads in the sand and treat all this as "an innocent passtime", that is fine.

In praise of the jihadis,

There is so much of criticism of the jihadis. But their contribution to teh economic growth of pakistan cannot be denied.

Most of the car hijackings are domne by the jihadis and the cars are sold in NWFP. Among all the countries in the world, car tracking using stalites is the most advanced in pakistan.

Jihadis are self employed, they do not steal others jobs, they do not dipress the wages.

The jihadi criminals have spurned the largest industry in pakistan, private security guards, which is good for the economy, the rich have to employ them, there by creating jobs.

Jihadis have prevented the business men coming to pakistan, this has reduced the exports, and made many commodities available to teh locals

one can keep going on about how good the jihadis are for the pak economy, especially for the abdul pakis.

Re: # 8
"Zee sahib (if my understanding is right) tries to understand the root cause of all kinds of jihadis rather than blindly support or oppose all kinds."

Majumdar Bhayya,

There is a root cause for practically anything and everything; let me give you an example: Hypothetical scenario: One of your family/loved one gets attacked and fatally injured by a crackpot down the street. How do you feel? Angry and vengeful? I am sure and so would I, we are human afterall. What if I told you that a generation ago your family did somthing to this guy's family and they went bust as a result. Now the reason this man was a crackpot is actually YOUR making. Would you accept such a silly argument? Of course not.

When we are grown up, we have the capacity to THINK and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for OUR actions as mature adults. No matter how many excuses you make, it DOES NOT make it allright!

Notwithstanding Pervs Hoodbhoy's thesis, for Pakistan's sake, time for it to make another U-Turn!

Yes. If pakistan wants to save its body politic its needs another U-turn.

The elite need to understand - that just as parents do, esp with young children who are restless and have tremendous energy, get the kids tired and an avocation to get rid of the energy - that the jihadi is child_like. Plenty of engergy and enthu for life. The Jihadi needs an outlet for this energy.

The elite need to focus their minds on the "unfinished business" of partition. This is the only option left. NOthing else seems to work -

today you had 100 injured and 20 odd killed so far in a Jihadi Bombing in lahore. (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7288953.stm)


The body politic of the nation is being ripped apart. Make that U-Turn Zardari sahib. Your wife had the great idea of creating, sustaining the Taliban, and later channeleing these guys energies towards the unfinished business. Be the great statesman and save pakistan.

Cheema sahib,

(What if I told you that a generation ago your family did somthing to this guy's family)

Very true. But inappropriate in context of Zee sahib. His justification of jihadism (if at all he justifies it) is in relation to the terror that is being unleashed in FATA in the name of WOT, not for injustices done in the past.

Regards

I've never understood why people crib so much about suicide bombing. I mean, just look at the advantages as compared to, say, an IED or a remote controlled device:

1) It is a smart bomb, better than a precision laser-guided one, and destroys only the intended target (collateral damage notwithstanding). It can even change its mind at the last second and go home, while a missile or an IED cannot!

2) It is not indiscriminate like an IED or a roadside device which will blow up anyone who drives first over it (like the marriage party in Swat with a military convoy just behind!).

3) The bomber dies alongwith the bomb, so cannot bomb again, while the IED bomber or the remote controller can bomb again and again repeatedly.

You guys should be celebrating the suicide bomber! He/she's a humane weapon!!!

Re: # 13

Iron mask,

The PPP leadership is real islamist. They know that the jihadis seek heaven and the 32 houris and the like, they seek death, and as true islamic leaders, they do not want the poor abdul pakis to travel to kashmir to meet have the shehdad. I admire mushy, he is delivering them shehdad at the door steps.

It is not technically impossible to have predators circling all over pakistan, and at the mention of teh word jihad, a shehdad missile can be sent to greet them.

I understand that malaysian proton is developing an islamic car, with a compass to give the mecca direction, a lota, some water and prayer mat as standard issue. Time that muslims joined with the US to develop a shahdad missile.

Zee sahib,

(It is not indiscriminate like an IED or a roadside device which will blow up anyone)

Are you saying that all Pakis who have died lately in suicide bombing attacks (eg the guys in the Charsadda mosque) were guilty folk???

Regards

#17 Posted by majumdar,

Go back to my categorization. The Charsadda mosque bomb was (as are all mosque bombings) a sectarian revenge attack in response for Sherpao's role in the Parachinar conflict. Nothing to do with Jihad.

Re: # 13

"The elite need to focus their minds on the "unfinished business" of partition. This is the only option left. NOthing else seems to work -....."

Sure, the Jehadism-itch of the Pakis have to be relieved in some way or the other.
Sure, when the Paki project of cloning Mohammad was envisaged during Zia days nobody thought that these mindless Mohammad clones would start killing Pakis themselves!!

Re: # 18

Nothing to do with Jehad???

Miyan tum Shia ko musalmaan mante ho?? Aur kristi kafiroon ke khilaaf huye hamle ko Jehad nahih maante??

Zee sahib,

Jihad or no jihad, Charsadda was a suicide bombing wasn't it. And surely not all the people who died there were guilty folks, were they?

Regards

Re: # 13
"The elite need to focus their minds on the "unfinished business" of partition"

sorry have I missed something here? What IS that unfinished business if you care to elaborate?

#21 Posted by majumdar,

No majumdar saheb you didn't get my point.

My point was that the suicide bomber identifies it's target and accurately attacks it. In case of the mosque bomb his target would indeed be all those present inside, regardless of guilty or not guilty. But he didn't by error attack a school or a household or any other unintended target next door or round the block as other precision weapons do all the time.

That's the point.

Re: # 21

Majumdar Bhai, I like your persistence; at times quite enjoyable! You seem like a good decent fellow!

Unfortunately Jihad's definition can be arbitrary and often depends on what outcome someone may be looking for. There are Shia Jihadis (Hezbollah), Sunni Jihadis (Jamaat-e-Islami), and a lot of free-lancers as well. Sunnis DONOT consider Shias muslim but carry on the pretence (I am talking about the hard-liners here, most people couldn't give a f...); and vice versa. Ask someone from "Sipaah-e-sahaaba" and their Jihad would be to eradicate the evil of Shiaism from the land of the pure.

It really is what is means to the individual. So those guys WERE Jihadis in their own right.

I am going to try to find a reference form I book I read recently with interviews of suicide bombers from Palestine that "survived". It was an eye opener.

Re: # 22

the elite need to focus their (the jihadis) minds on the "unfinished business" of the partition(i.e Kashmir first then the Deccan).

Without kashmir pakistan is incomplete....

Cheema, you failed in your pakistan studies. If you were in China youwould have been sent to the reeducation camps!

"reeducation camps".... are called madrassas in Pakistan

Re: # 25

O Buzurgo, I had a distinction in Pakistan Studies, alongwith Islamiyat, many of the science subjects and English. I was also the best debater in my division. This was all the way upto medical school (amir-ul-momineen Zia-ul-huq made these subjects compulsory even then!)

Never did I realise this stupidity that existed amongst our midst!

What is your take on East Pakistan? That was OUR part RIGHT FROM THE START; we couldn't even keep that with us. What chance do we have in "completing" the remaining Pakistan now?

Re: # 27 cheema, you got it wrong. East Pakistan was more hindu than islamic. The bengali muslims were contaminated with hindu beleifs and needed to be cleansed. The leadership tried their best but were not successful. Once kufr comes in it takes over the whole body. A finger here, a toe there doesnot work (that is what the leadership tried). In the 20th century esp 30 years after the massacres by Hitler&Co such a removal of the body would not have been allowed.

So it was let go. Kasmir is purer than that. Infact it should have been a part of Pakistan right from the start. East Pakistan should have been traded for kashmir, and pakistan would have been much better off.

Zardari Sahib Makethat U-Turn. learn from your wife the beloved martyr BiBi!

unfinished business means: 'liberation of Kashmir from India'
++

The silent majority in Pakistan had post-election celebrations but the jihadis lurking in shadows make their presence felt thru suicide bombings, like the one we saw today.

What Dr Hoodbhoy said abt the videos is very scary.

I also read that they (AQ) brought an innocent man from the streets in Baghdad to give practice of 'cutting throats' to the trainee jihadis & they actually made the trainesss cut.It's the weirdest form of hands-on training!!

They are very sophisticated now. They access to electronic explosives, gadgets, Net & use them effectively. They never realise that their mindset or puritanical religion created those facilities. Here's a zeehadi on CHowk with wet dreams of creating murder and mayhem in Pakistan wants the terrorists to use remote controlled IEDs (none of it was created by the Book or Book-worms he professes).

We can never argue or win an argument with extermists. Nor the power of logic works with Uncle Sam.

#29 Posted by VRV,

Which book do the Tamils read?

When one force is out of proportion stronger than another attack by suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic of war.Our enemies are very peaceful as Carl Von Clausewitz said long ago.They want to conquer us without war.

These tactics were used for a long time in military history."Forlorn hopes were organised for frontal 100 % suicidal attacks by British Army in 18th century".The Japanese perfected Kamikaze suicide bombings which was staged on a strategic level on 9/11.The Palestenians did it against Israelis.These are not fanatics.These are warriors.As long as the targets are not non combatants this is a legitimate tactic of war.

chowk staff have a great sense of humour or is it irony....

any one noticed the ad from google on RHS......if you have not here it is once more

WHAT USA SEEKS TO DESTROY

Nation

21 June 2002

A.H Amin

The three cardinal attributes of today's geopolitics are
"globalisation", "non ideological international themes" and "emphasis on
economics" rather than "ideological conflict" as the key theme in
international relations. It is another thing that below the surface
"ideology remains a key issue", "the desire to enslave smaller or weaker
states by larger or stronger states" remains the key issue and
"globalisation" is but another name of capitalism practiced at a global
scale.

The so called unipolar system also has limitations and is being
repeatedly challenged, if not conventionally, then unconventionally as
proved by events of 9/11. The famous philosopher Toffler may have
re-defined power but human nature remains the same as it was 2,500 years
ago. US Think Tanks and so called experts may advance subtle theses but
the underlying conflict is the same i.e. a West which adopted Eastern
Christianity and refashioned it as per Barbarian ideals versus an East
with a different mindset and a different set of values.

The international capitalist order was challenged by French Revolution
and the Communist Revolution in Russia but the power of the
imperialistic exploiters could not be broken. Nonetheless without USSR
military aid the Arabs could not have survived Israeli hegemonism. This
is an irrefutable historical reality.

Long ago the West's present dilemma was summed up by one of its greatest
historian Gibbon in the following words "Yet this apparent security
should not tempt us to forget that new enemies and unknown dangers may
possibly arise from some obscure people, scarcely visible in the map of
the world". In the same paragraph Gibbon cited the example of the Arabs
who had "languished in poverty and contempt" till the advent of Islam
when in Gibbon's words Islam" breathed into those same bodies the soul
of enthusiasm".

When modern US thinkers with links with US State decision making and
analytical bodies state with confidence that "ideology is no longer
fashionable" and that "international terrorism" is the key issue who are
they fooling. If this line of thinking is to be followed, whenever any
White Man or a Jewish man dies it is terrorism while whenever any non
White or Muslim dies this is casualty inflicted in sheer self defence in
the war against terrorism. A stooge is a man who was protected by USSR
and a King or Emir or a president protected by US Forces or US aid is a
perfect patriot.

Take the "Firebombing of Tokyo" on the fateful night of 9/10 March 1945.
On that night the US Airforce in the proud words of an American writer
"conducted the most destructive air raid in history". Sixteen square
miles of Tokyo were destroyed and some 83,793 Japanese civilian were
killed mostly by third degree burns while some 40,918 were injured. A US
General proudly exclaimed "It made a lot of sense to kill skilled
workers". Compare this with US position on 9/11. If for a moment we
accept that 9/11 was a great outrage in which some 3,000 were killed not
all of them skilled, what was Tokyo Raid of March 1945?

There is a subtle motivation here. An ulterior geopolitical agenda. The
West still fears ideology which it abandoned after 1945 in favour of
shameless materialism. It fears men who cannot be bought, who have no
fear for the tomorrow, who cannot be stopped by a NATO or the wide
Atlantic or wider Pacific. USSR may have been a more synthetic state but
the men motivated to die without motivated by the CIA pumped dollar via
Silent Soldiers is a more dangerous specie. Enters the Asian and African
Collaborator Regimes. Liberal Presidents, subtle Emirs, Egalitarian
Kings, all mustered like Sepoy Jahan Khan in the First World War to
fight the War against Terror. The Soviets were more naïve if less
morally defective than the American decision makers. The Americans seek
to accomplish enslavement through more sophisticated methods. Thus one
of their intellectuals states in an article that "unlike centuries past,
when war was the great arbiter, today the most interesting type of power
do not come out of the barrel of the gun".

Today this man says "there is a much bigger pay off in getting others to
want what you want". And there is no shortage of collaborators,
ambitious men who usurped power whether it was after the downfall of
Ottoman Empire with British or French money or in Egypt or Pakistan or
in Indonesia.

Somewhere deep inside the US decision makers are at a loss to admit as
to how with a 30 Billion USD intelligence budget, 13 Federal
Organisations dealing with Intelligence and some 30,000 eavesdroppers
employed by USA's National Security Agency was the Al Qaeda able to
strike. Compare 30 Billion USD per year spent since two decades with may
be 4 Billion USD lost in 9/11. If the East or the Islamic World has any
edge over the West it is in willingness to sacrifice rather than
materialism and selfishness.

What the West and particularly the USA fears is not nuclear weapons but
men motivated by ideology. Men who cannot be bought like the so many
Emirs, Kings and Military Presidents from Morocco till Pakistan.

The world has not changed from Gibbons' times. The New Barbarians as the
USA sees the Muslim radicals are more dangerous because they cannot be
bought. Because they have operational talent and strategic acumen.
Because they do not beg like Sadat for a Camp David but fight with their
limbs rather than Stingers. What the US seeks is destruction of ideology
which as per one theme presently floated in the so called prestigious
National Defence College at Islamabad is no longer fashionable.

This is the Clash of Civilisation and will continue till this world
exists or till the USA discovers a new planet where human beings can
survive and to which the Americans will migrate after all the mineral
resources of this world are exhausted and we are left to die without
water or fuel.

If this is so and if low intensity war is the only way in which the
conventionally weaker forces can defeat the conventionally stronger
forces then so be it. If extremism in thought or ideology is out of
fashion and out of favour with USA and its camp followers, so be it. If
we are in any case condemned to be sub humans in a world order dominated
by the G-7 and have no other recourse but to fight with bomb, dagger or
suicide explosive pack then so be it.

Jala kay Mashal-i-Jaan, Hum Junoon-Sifaat Chalay. Jo Ghar ko aag lagaay,
hamarey saath chalay.

Zee,

What Tamils in Pakistan?

U r calling for more destruction in Pakistan. Arent u? Prove me wrong.

#31 Posted by pavocavalry

Our enemies are very peaceful as Carl Von Clausewitz said long ago.They want to conquer us without war.

Haha ... brilliant! I hope the author of this article reads this comment.

#34 Posted by VRV,

You didn't answer my question.

Which book do the Tamils read?

Murtids dont read these things .They have no concept of the warriors who wage the sabres of paradise.

Like a Blossom today , Then scattered , Life is so like a delicate flower , how can one expect the fragrance to last forever ,

Like cherry blossoms in the spring , we fall clean and radiant

Admiral Onishi
Imperial Japanese Airforce
Commander Kamikaze Pilots

This universe is so vast and man so insignificant , that a man's existence can only be justified by the measure of his sacrifice

Pilot Officer V.A
Last letter to his mother
Battle of Britain 1940

Tamil Hindus read Tirukkural
Tamil Christains read Bible
Tamil Muslims read Qoran &
Tamil non-believrs read Communits Manifesto
(LTTE is a Marxist organisation).

++

From ur post 9:

'I remember I had sent out a memo to use remote-controlled IED's instead after the objections following the 'Pindi medicos bus attack!'

Why these middle class employees of the Govt are scapegoats 4 u?

Have some mercy on these guys. If u can direct ur men to GHQ and Whitehouse.

Suicide atttacks achieve precious little in the end…. The enemy gets hardened… and can beat the suicide bombers….. LTTE has been using suicide bombing for lat 20 years….. today they look farthest from achieving their “Ealam”

In the long run suicide attacks add up to a little

what the USA is trying to do is to introduce a confusion of principle , they are propagating to all anti US forces that suicide bombings are not good ! Why because its such an expensive weapon against which the USA has absolutely no antidote !

what the USA is trying to do is to introduce a confusion of principle , they are propagating to all anti US forces that suicide bombings are not good ! Why because its such an expensive weapon against which the USA has absolutely no antidote !

The Tamils will win ! Who says they have lost !

Hats off to Tamils !

pavo,

Without India's nod they are not going to get anything.

I hope that India has a strategic vision and supports Balkanisation of all their neighbours ! If not then RAWs building should be OKLAHOMISED in the Professional Timothy Mc Veigh fashion.

pavo,

Be our Timothy Veigh. We have a lethal injection ready 4 u.

RAW is not as powerful as ISI is! They dont have a vision of their own as CIA or ISI had for any region in the world. They are employees with good operational freedom. They dont frame policies nor they advise/dictate - as it happens in the US - to the Head of Govt.

pavo..

Lankans seem to have a upper hand now..... even if ealan happens in the future it may not be under LTTE

#38 Posted by VRV,

(LTTE is a Marxist organisation).

Ok good!

Now you said in #29 "They never realise that their mindset or puritanical religion created those facilities...."

Next question: Which Marxist Doctrine constitutes a puritanical religion 'creating those facilities'?

as you sow, so shall you reap..

Twin blasts rock Lahore, 26 people killed

At least 26 people were killed and over 170 injured in two massive suicide car bombings that destroyed the federal headquarters of Pakistan's premier probe agency and a house near Pakistan People's Party co-hairman Asif Ali Zardari's residence in Lahore [Images] on Tuesday, a week after the attack on a naval college in the city.

A suicide attacker drove an explosive-packed pick-up truck into the compound of the Federal Investigation Agency office located on Temple Road and blew himself up at 9.30 am, killing at least 22 people and leaving the seven-storey building in shambles, officials said.

In the second near-simultanous blast in the Punjab capital, two suicide bombers drove a pick-up truck into the compound of a house in Model Town residential area that had been rented by an advertising agency and blew themselves up.

Bilawal House, which is owned by Zardari, and the residence of Lahore city 'nazim' Amir Mehmood, are located in the vicinity of the house that was attacked.

Besides the two bombers, the blast killed two children of the gardener who worked at the house. It created a seven-foot crater and smashed windows of buildings within a radius of 100 metres, witnesses said.

Two persons, including the gardener, were seriously injured in the blast, said police officer Azmat Gondal.

"The suicide attackers drove into the house and blew themselves up before the guard at the gate could stop them. We do not know as yet why this house was targeted," Gondal said.

Reports said the suicide bombers might have been trying to target the nearby residence of an army officer. Last week, two suicide bombers targeted the Navy's War College on Mall Road, killing seven persons.

FIA Director Chaudhry Manzoor said at least 10 employees of the organisation were killed. The city administration declared the FIA office as unsafe and ordered everyone except rescue workers to leave the structure. Officials said they had recovered the close circuit cameras and videos which would be analysed.

Over 100 FIA employees had already reported for work when the blast occurred, destroying the entire front of the building. Walls and stairs collapsed, posing problems for rescue workers trying to remove the injured and dead from the structure.

Aaj News

pavo..

it may be good for LTTLE to play the "hindu card".. and try to get support from the hindu nationalist parties in India... thats the only way they can get support in Delhi

My prayers are with LTTE !

#44 Posted by VRV

Without India's nod they are not going to get anything.

So India is pulling LTTE strings? Is that what you're saying? Or is it something else?

India is grateful to LTTE for getting rid of Rajiv Gandhi !

#40 Posted by pavocavalry on March 11, 2008 4:07:24 am


Why because its such an expensive weapon against which the USA has absolutely no antidote !


There is an easy antidote. deport all muslims and in iraq and afghanistan, wholescale slaughter of people...but america won't do this because the people here won't stand for it...

so, yes..there is no solution that america is likely to utilize....but there are always solutions...

#9 Posted by zeemax on March 11, 2008 1:10:39 am


What? The suiciders are still at it? I remember


what? The predators are still at it? I remember you telling us about a grim faced abizaid who was being read the riot act by mushy...you know..back in the days when you hadn't realized pakiland was a , let's say, female dog...

The west will lose because they believe in human rights, at least synthetically .

Professor Sahib!

Have you ever considered that suicide attacks are not just bombings but they are akin to the modern day guillotines? Have you ever pondered the possibility that this could be the sedition against the oppressive, corrupt, and pro-western, ruling elite that has been exploiting this country for 60 years? I call this ruling class, East India Company ki najaiz aulad. There was a time when this class could have established rule of law in this country. They could have given people rights, dignity, and sovereignity. And now when they have fukked up everything to its core they whine. Had you been nice and respectful to the people, probably they would have cried for you.

But it is still not too late. Just stop doing what you have been doing for the past 60 years and more than half of it would just go away by itself. Probably there will be an eye or two too who would cry for you too then. Look, the real madness is to keep doing the same thing over and over again and then expecting different results. This is not something that I say, it was said by a white man named Einstein. Perhaps you will listen to a white man this time.

Zee,

I know a lot of LTTE upporters here. I discuss the issue and the latest developments.

The one issue that Rajiv never foresaw was the similar separatist movement in Tamil Nadu or a demand for Greater Eelam. So an independent Ealam next to Tamil Nadu is unthinkable as Tamil Nadu is the nerve centre of Tamil langauge, cinema & culture.

India is also having the dilemma of 'to be or not to be'. If they dont support Sinhala govt, then Sinhalese invite China+Pakistan to their midst which India never want. If they support Sinhalese then they alienate Indian Tamils. If they do support eelam then they end up shooting the foot. It's a fine balance India had to make & India is doing just that.

Finally u guys are not fighting for a separate country in Pakistan. It's part of the global war waged on murtids, munafiqs (in the name of wrongs heaped on Ummah by the US and its allies).

I am glad that Chowk is full of Murtids and RSS guys ! Its good to hear everyone's point of view so that future targets can be chosen with finesse.

Dr Hoodbhoy

Once again, excellent article but will it make a difference? Maybe, but odds are stacked against any change. Pakistan is off to a new experiment, lets see where it takes us, early indicators seem to be positive bu then again this is the euphoria stage.

Dr Hoodbhoy

Once again, excellent article but will it make a difference? Maybe, but odds are stacked against any change. Pakistan is off to a new experiment, lets see where it takes us, early indicators seem to be positive bu then again this is the euphoria stage.

“The west will lose because they believe in human rights, at least synthetically . “

West only talks abt “ human rights’…… This is the same “west” which carried out genocide.. during their colonial expansion phase in America, Australia Africa…

They can be very very violent ….. may be the trigger has different setting s now….

Thats why its a must for all Third World countries to acquire WMDs ! The West understands the language of violence only.Thats why Hoodhbhoy is spreading confusion of principle so that Muslims are made like docile lambs to be led to slaughter ! This article is part of a series of subtle attempts to inflict strategic castration on Muslims.The Ismaili sect had a fine beginning in Alamut but now they have become pacifists.

Re: # 63 Pavo

Well said!!

We are missing our great friend ZEEMAX SAHIB.We badly need his phenomenal hitting power in dialogue now.

Re: # 64 I am glad that I have some well wishers also.Thanks Mohtaram urs truly Sahib.

pavo,

Are u a fauzi. Bhai, charity starts at home. Why dont u guys so no to US at the army level?

International politics is very complex. U start it from home and say no anything to America incl 'queuing for American visas/immigraion to the west' and like. Be like Iranians, North Koreans.

Good 4 u.

the army is mercenary but i am sad to note that its now quite discredited, sad because i am a 5th generation ex soldier with all forefathers in army or police.yes the pakistan army is no longer respected . it has reverted to the pre partition mercenary tradition.it was mercenary throughout but after 2001 it became shamelessly mercenary . fear of Indian domination made the paki generals sell their souls and everything to americans.

the army is mercenary but i am sad to note that its now quite discredited, sad because i am a 5th generation ex soldier with all forefathers in army or police.yes the pakistan army is no longer respected . it has reverted to the pre partition mercenary tradition.it was mercenary throughout but after 2001 it became shamelessly mercenary . fear of Indian domination made the paki generals sell their souls and everything to americans.

dr hoodbhoy,

.... to stop these human drones we have to go after their ideological leaders - deobandi mullahs like dr israr and zakir naik , crazy 'journalists', 'teachers' like masadi, generals like hamid gul and tv talk show hosts like aneeq ahmed and dr shahid masood ...... these are the people who are the root cause of this problem ...... once these people have been put away, the chilgoza gallery consisting of people like zeemax will melt away ........

Re: # 21

Majumdar Bhai, I have this interview that I promised. This is an arab guy, one of the failed suicide bombers in September 2001.

This is Nasra Hassan intervieiwng a failed suicide bomber for the New Yorker on 19th November 2001. He is 27, name shortened as ‘S.’

What is the attraction of martyrdom? I asked.
“The power of the spirit pulls us upwards, while the power of material things pulls us downward”, he said. “Someone bent on martyrdom becomes immune to the material pull. Our planner asked, ‘what if the operation fails?’. We told him, “in any case, we get to meet the Prophet and his companions, Inshallah.”

“We were floating, swimming, in the feeling that we were about to enter eternity. We had no doubts. We made an oath on the Koran, in the presence of Allah – a pledge not to waver. This jihad pledge is called BAYT AL-RIDWAN, after the garden in paradise that is reserved for the prophets and the martyrs. I know there are other ways to do jihad. But this one is sweet – the sweetest. All martyrdom operations, if done for Allah’s sake, hurt less than a gnat’s bite!”

‘S’ showed me a video that documented the final planning for the operation. In the grainy footage, I saw him and two other young men engaging in a ritualistic dialogue of questions and answers about the glory of martyrdom...................

The young man and the planner then knelt and placed their right hands on the Koran. The planner said: “are you ready? Tomorrow, you will be in Paradise”.

Re: # 70

Hamidm sahib, this situation is beyond joke I reckon.

Re: # 72

cheema sahib,

.... you are right - the situation is way beyond a joke and it is time the government went after the real culprits in this deadly game - these include the people i mentioned ........ people like dr israr, aneeq ahmed, shahid masood, the journalists who write in papers like the nation and jang, professors like masdadi and the imams at juma prayers do much more damage than a single suicide bomber ......... these are the people who have to be stopped first

dr hoodbhoy,

.... i hate to point this out, but by writing in papers like dawn you are preaching to the converted and wasting your time ..... why don't you write for rags like jang and nation ? ...... also, the fact that you have a reputation as a 'dharia' does not help your cause - you should start going for juma prayers ..... it is okay to debase yourself if it is for a good cause .......

Hamid Sahib’s #70 says it all. Not only do we need to kill the ideology, but we also need to ask ourselves, where there are no Mohajir suicide bombers? Are they chicken? It’s morons like Turly and Fasadi cheering the idiots but god forbid they put on the jacket themselves. Hopefully one day.

Author says:

Conversely, there is a widespread opinion that suicide attacks will disappear if Pakistan dissociates itself from this war. But, few admit the brutal fact that even if America retreats, or an elected government calls off the army, the terror of jihadism will remain.

However, he does not explain how he believes the above to be 'the brutal fact'.

dr hoodbhoy,

.... do you know what your collegues think of you? .... i don't mean to tell tales, but this is for a good cause so i don't feel too bad about it ........ here are some of the adjectives they use when talking about you : dharia, pagal, bewakoof, sada, bholay shah, mast malang, dharia (again), means well but is misguided, phata dhol, majnoon and dharia again ....... i am sure you know why 'dharia' is used most often - in a god crazed society like pakistan an atheist is the lowest of the low ..........

Re: # 75

It is lack of insight sir. An impressionable mind is an un-questioning mind. If I were involved with these as a potential suicider, I would ask the "organiser" to actually lead by example! If he knows a "fast track to paradise", he should put HIS neck where his mouth is and try it out so we all know!!

What complete wankers!!

Re: # 76

zeemax,

.... are you saying that you will stop fighting for the establishment of the moon god's kingdom on earth if pakistan disassociates itself from the gwot ? ..... i am sure your answer will be 'no' and that is what makes this a brutal fact .........

Re: # 78

cheema sahib,

.... it is not lack of 'insight' .... faith is blind ... period

Re: # 76 zeemax

I am afraid, professors concern has weight. Suppose the Americans retreat from this region; and while doing that they will leave behind their chamchas and East India Company ki najaiz aulaad in this country anyway, who has done this nation so much wrong. Do you remember, what happened to the South Vietnamese after Americans fled?

I think the best bet for this class to survive is to do the right thing now. There still is time. It will ensure their survival. The right thing to do is:

1. Re-enact the deposed judiciary.
2. Re-enact the Constitution of 1973 as it was before October 1998
3. Sack Mucharraf, and put him on trial for treason.
4. Call off military everywhere from West bank of River Indus.
5. Respectfully tell Americans that we cannot fight their losing wars anymore, and they should take a hike.

#73 Posted by hamidm2,

hamidm why did you miss the entire premise of this article? It is about the CHOICE of the bomb, and NOT the bombing itself. The author is boohooing about how the desensitization of a foreign joystick bomber thousands of miles away is understandable but the same idea of the one familiar and close at hand is not. Get it?

That's why I had sent out that memo to only use joysticks, remote controls etc. but these days these young guys just don't listen!

#79 Posted by hamidm2,

Of-course the fight will not stop - but it will not be against the Pakistani establishment anymore. Don't you want to liberate Kashmir from the horrible hindoos? The direction of the guns will change. Forgotten already who grabbed Azad Kashmir for you?

#83 Posted by zeemax on March 11, 2008 5:45:35 am

so 2010 it is? or is it now sooner or later?

Re: # 82

here is a thought zeemax - why cannot the jihadis use this opportunty to develop alternative technology, technology which does not cost their lives?! I.e. go back to the way jihaad is defined for all of us.......

would nt that be a better way forward. Who knows they might hit a very rich seam of knowledge which would enable them to make that technological leap over others. After all isn't this advocated for in the Koran, and also by the Prophet (PUBH).

Just a thought.....

Re: # 84

you trying to set deadlines here...when people have forgotten the time..........and time is meaningless irrelevant etc

mubarakein, budhayee, congrats on your freedom struggle..remember there is never violence without root cause..please say a prayer for the great shaheeds...what a sacrifice for freedom..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/world/asia/12pstan.html?_r=1& hp&oref=slogin


Two powerful explosions, just minutes apart and both of them suicide attacks, rocked the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore on Tuesday morning, killing 24 people, the Interior Ministry said.

#86 Posted by Dash_Dot on March 11, 2008 6:06:27 am

it's not me..it's peeweemax who told us his jihadi brothers would liberate kashmir by 2010...

#85 Posted by Dash_Dot,

Yaar why reinvent the wheel? The most effective weapon is that which is relatively inexpensive compared to the target it destroys. Remember, it was just one truck worth maybe a thousand or two dollars which made the americans leave Lebanon, when a single cruise missile costs a few million and not even sure if it actually hits the target.

As Pavo said, it is a legitimate weapon as long as it is not against purely non-combatants.

... which of-course is true in case of all weapons.

Re: # 88 you mean zeemax mian is into nostra's damus, or mayber he is a regular visitor to http://revelation13.net/
that would explain it all

Re: # 89
You missing the point here zeemax. For all scholarship you seem to be missing the key gaining knowledge (which you have been exhorted to seek from all corners of the earth), inorder to make that tech leap.

You see sending in remotely guided vehicles is easy-peesy - fly, aim, fire and forget (faff - hence faffing around). Get, groom, brain-wash, teach, buy, and expect to rpess the button on yourself - is a bit too long winded. (that should be the lesson from the good prof's article - maybe he is into trying to rustle up money for this research in his insitute you may have another AQKhan here).


Technologically what the suicide guys are doing is nothing new, has been done to death before (apologies for the lousy met and pun). People can safe guard themselves against this. Notice how the US is bio-finger printing everyone and also developing a database of cavity images. from DC they can burn the jihadis (that they have not as yet done is because of the the collateral damage. The Jihadi needs to be able to do the same. Killing your own kind does not serve any purpose.

Move with the times....keep up you are being left behind

dash_dot, one very quick question.

Suppose a Jihadi is your friend, lives next door, his son plays with your daughter and they both go to school together, you meet regularly for drinks and for laughs and movies, and then one day, he or his wife, one of his kids blows himself/herself up, taking you along for a ride to the distant heavens.

I know, that is impossible to imagine, and we are sure, can never happen, but suppose that were theoretically possible, then what defense do you have agains this weapon? How will bio finger printing work?

If that were to happen - i would expect that the forces take appropriate measures that
(a) his sidekicks are taught an invaluable lesson
(b) the govt of the day imporves its internal security
(c) deports his likes back to his beloved ummah (since they do have any place in a civiilsed world where opinions (however distasteful or disvergent are tolerated and having an opinion is a right)
(d) never allow another jihadi to enter the country.

You see ekalavya, your hypo question will always have an answer. ofcourse it will be postpriori (posteriori or post facto), but an answer nevertheless. that is what is happening with bio finger printing, and the FAFF-ing using drones.
AS chaltahai so eloquently put it on UP

Post by chaltahai on Mar 11, 2008 6:38:27 am
Scout, apparently 5/6th of humanity gives a fk what a jihadi thinks because there is open season on jihadis from philippines to amreeka




flag objectionable content

urstruly #81 i am glad to see you are finally on the right track. now take the next step:

#8 disrespectfully tell the arab and central asian apes who think they can carve out a bit of pakistan using suicide bombers that once musharraf is gone, pakistanis will kick them out next.

Re: # 87
I wonder if these suicide bombers are guaranteed of a nice place in heaven with Houries offering their 'services'?

Re: # 93 kaalchakra, you will understand this

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
For I understood true jihad
I was a muslim.

When the jihadis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
For I understood true jihad
I was a muslim.

When they locked up the mirzayis,
I remained silent;
For I understood true jihad
I was a muslim.

When they came for the Hindus,
I did not speak out;
For I understood true jihad
I was muslim.

When they went for the world,
I remained silent;
For I understood true jihad
I was a "true" muslim.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out


that is the poredicament people in places like Pakistan are.

They are hardworking and industrious people. But they are also ones who live in a make believe world and a world of puff-statements. They have long forgotten to look beyond their noses and see the "real" world around them.

Re: # 93

chakri,

..... this is not as far fetched as you think .... i know a number of people who are one fuse short of a suicide belt ......... all it will take is another day of brooding or a lecture from dr israr, an inflamatory 'column' by pavocavalry, a fiery rant against the us by dr shahid masood, getting fired from the job or being spurned by a woman ...... it can happen any time .... people like urstruly and masadi fall in this category ..... zeemax is not yet there - he is part of the chigoza gallery and is short at least a couple of sticks of dynamite and a fuse ........

kamath #96 and what are hindu suicide bombers hoping to become in their next incarnation(and tamil hindus were in this business of suicide bombings long before the arab apes introduced it in pakistan)?

and what are the hindu animals who poured boiling water over the head and pulled the finger nails of this pakistani ex-cricket fan hoping to become in their next incarnation?

thanks in advance for our enlightening answer about the virtues of hinduism.

Although i didnt read the article i completely agree with Dr Hoodbhoy on all the points that i am sure he made.

In terms of our paki terrorists the crime is not blowing yourself up with a soap bomb instead of using a sophisticated detonating device ...the crime is being in no intellectual military or economic state to win a fair fight and hence resorting to pathetic and weak tactics to try and create a world that NOONE wants to be part of including other pakis.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

in #101, read "he knows equal little about Pakistani and US society " as

he knows equally little about Pakistani and US society

And read "two things stood out which show the ordinary person why what I wrote about is true" as

two things stood out which show the ordinary person why what I wrote above is true


By the way, when I mean the Americans leave us alone, I also mean that thier occupation force, the Pakistan Army, gets the hell out of our affairs as well.

#100 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Well you don't need to read the article. I gave the two-line synopsis in #82!

A very well written piece by Pervez describing the situation with suicide bombings as it exists in Pakistan today. I couldn't agree with it more. The real question is how do you stop this self-destruction of a nation that has serious consequences for the entire world and force a course reversal? If the great majority of Pakistanis including the apologists for the bombers truly condemn the actions of the few, would it be sufficient? These bombings have spawned a new culture with its roots in the Afghan resistance of the Soviet Union in 80s backed by US, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. This culture has developed in two decades in Pakistan's tribal belt and gained strength more recently. There are many culprits, Pakistanis of all stripes are culpable to varying degrees. But so are many others. In my humble view, there are no quick fixes. We (Pakistanis backed by Americans, Saudis, the Europeans etc.) must start by addressing what Pervez describes as the "enabling environment of poverty, deprivation, lack of justice, and extreme differences of wealth is perfect for demagogues". At the same time, we must continue to act against those who orchestrate these crimes in the name of Islam. If we do one without the other,the chances of success are zero. If we do both, we can entertain the hope of ending it in a decade or two. It's in the best interest of all to begin this effort quickly and earnestly.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

heya zee

yes i know ...i based my 4 line synopsis on your two line synopsis :)

zeemax:

Have you heard anything about the kind of private business that was attacked in Model Town and why. This is quite unusual from the pattern. It seems that the phenomenon is evolving.

#106 Posted by Urstruly,

It appears to have been an attack on Ijaz Batalvi. That ad agency was owned by his son. I don't think the two attacks were related.

Q. Would suicide bombings ever end??

Ans. The blood thirsty moon god prefers the blood of martyrs

As per Allah's preference -

Blood of 1 martyr 'IsGreaterThan' 20000 kafirs, munafiqoon and murtid's blood ,

Therefore, the suicide bombings can never stop. Not until Islam is established all over the world.

It is Allah's will.

QED

tahmad

the arab apes especially Saudis pay napak fouj handsomely to keep Arab fighters engaged in Afghanistan and away from their own countries. The apes are in fact on your side.

There will be a time and place to teach these apes a lesson for keeping your pe