The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

Re: # 51; tahmed bhai

I didn't chose to sideline anything. It is all a result of rational analysis. It is always very difficult for one to explain the reason for being an atheist to a believer.

Just because I think you are a decent person, I don't have to subscribe to your beliefs.

My critique is more to do with making people think; who knows where skepticism can take us!

I feel I have a morally fulfilled and happy life and I simply donot need religion/god etc; all I want is others (especially from similar religio-cultural backgrounds) to enjoy the same freedom of thought as well. I have no personal axe to grind with this god person; for that one has to acknowledge their existence (that issue has been addressed elsewhere - may be you can run through my posts over the last month if you have the time).

My only child is well adjusted and I have already talked about her upbringing elsewhere, probably on Gill Sahib's Bulleh Shah board, so feel free to jog your memory.

The final sermon, incidently, doesn't talk about all this lovey dovey stuff you seem to be referring to; may be we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

It is well past my bedtime so I'd have to say Shab Bakhair to you. Talk to you soon, Insha-allah!

doctor sahib #49: your point about the prophet being made a role model is well made. but note - no one harps on the fact that he had multiple wives, and certainly pakistanis are no more likely to have multiple wives than any other people. when he is set up to be a role model by ordinary pakistanis (the mainstream, if you will), it is with respect to universally accepted values like honesty, integrity etc. references are given to his final sermon where he spoke about respect for all religions.

so who harps on his multiple wives and other aspects of his private life? first, european priesthood of the middle ages(and that is where my example of lucretia borgia becomes relevant) who hated islam as causing schism among believers (the exact charge that Dante made against him in is not-so-Divine Inferno) and whose hypocrisy (high living, sex scandals) are too well known for me to mention. second, hindus obsessed with intimidating and demonizing minority religions within their country who have picked up on this theme and try to ape the west by repeating this ridicule of his private life, ignoring the primitive and sexually-laced customs in their own communities. So, my reference to the lingum worship was quite relevant. their hypocrisy is also too well known. third, it is muslims like yourself and hamidm, who (as you yourselves have indicated) both seem to have been raised in ultra-conservative families are so are revolting against it as adults.

this is not a particularly mature reaction, and you will simply be making your children feel insecure and feel bad about their heritage.. when in fact they should be celebrating both their pakistani heritage as well as the broader heritage of all humanity that every educated person has and which every pea-brained chauvinist (whether hindu or muslim) will never have.

my question to you is this: if you have no problem with my understanding of islam, why do you chose to sideline it? what do you think you are achieving with this?

I hope this Amir Hamza was as quick witted a chap as my friend Abu bhai!!!

Regards

Re: # 45; tahmed Bhai

Like I said before, I have absolutely no problem with YOUR religion/belief system; whatever it may be, it can't be labelled mainstream Islam. I only hope there ARE others like you in the Muslim world.

Problem with your assertion with "my fascination" is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND IS ASKING ANYONE TO FOLLOW THESE GUYS AS ROLE MODELS; Islam's whole edifice is based on Mohammed, his Koran and Sunnah and it is followed blindly, without question, by the majority of his followers. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

No one in their right mind, nowadays, is blowing themselves up or killing someone else to protect the honour of their prophets but us muslims. So why should't we elaborate a bit on what we have been asked to follow blindly since birth?

I find your examples and the logic quite out of place here if I am allowed to say it. Besides, it was in reply to someone else's request and the parenthesis indicates, it is not my personal opinion but someone else's. You, or anyone else, is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

Amir Hamza's story, alongwith Umro Ayyar etc are part of OUR culture; I grew up with them same as anyone else from that background. Unfortunately, they have been presented here as a representation of "Islamic Culture". Like bjk said, why can't they be enjoyed by all without having to PROVE the connection with the Koran/Islamic tradition etc.

Please read my first few contributions on this board and tell me if you have further issues with it; I await your reply. Thanks.

they are showing march 23 military parade. with people finding fooditems and gasoline beyond their reach, this waste of gas on jets and vehicles for show is a disgrace. in the US, July 4 in DC has none of this expensive display of military hardware - only a parade with school bands and fireworks.

i hope the new government takes a hard look at wasteful military expenditures. only then will pakistan be truly free.

#45 that should be 7th century of course - not 14th.

#43 hamidm: one more time - it's the system, genius. not personalities.

i have been watching discussions on geo and aaj tv - and rest assured that pretty much everyone in pakistan (other than cowasjee and you and mush and his lotas) get it.

#42 akcheema: i find your fascination with the private life of a man who lived in the 14th century AD to be awe-inspiring.

Guess what the gossip has been about Queen Nefertiti and her bro? And may i recomment your getting further jollies out of studing the life and times of Oedipius? And while you are at it, check out what Lucretia and her pop the pope were up to after the pope's working hours were over. And of course you could always visit india to see woman-dog weddings (reported in the press, I am not making this up), women flocking to worship the x-rated god.

You see - the rest of the world is not as civilized as those Aussies down under. Although I suspect the platypus is the result of an aussie farmer getting familiar with his duck..

The article is most interesting and enlightening. Generally speaking, we need to focus more on the future than the past.

It is unfortunate that we of the subcontinent have walked away from an important part of our common heritage which books like the Hamzanama represent.

(Note to self: must make sure to visit the Freeer-Sackler galleries at the next possible chance.)

Re: # 40

tahmed,

.... so you think this is the dawn of a new era ? ........ i suggest you should listen to cowasjee - he has been around longer than even you and he says, "yeh sala sub chore hai" .....i think the cranky old fool is senile and it is time to put him out of his misery, but he does make a good point here ..... the more things change the more they remain the same - stay tuned for the next episode in this continuing saga ...

Re: # 41; treetop: Shame on you for asking me to do the dirty work FOR you! How dare you attempt to cast doudt on the chastity of our favourite "Umm-ul-momineen"! Shame on you again; you will burn in eternal hell!

Here are a few excerpts (Islamic references are from the Quran or Tabai/Ibn-Ishaq that I am going through on Zeemax bhai's learned recommendation. Before we say any more, what is your take on a young, perhaps attractive, adolescent girl, her fantacies and desires, when she is lumbered with a 50 odd year old man who, in all probability can't even get it going!, would have done at any time in history. Here we go:

[Islam's founder routinely made up Qur'an scripture to suit his agenda. However, there was a glimmer of light in this story. Aisha knew better. That's why she condemned Muhammad the moment he revealed the 24th surah, a "divine" revelation inspired by infidelity. It's called "The Criterion." Qur'an 24:1 "(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." For Muhammad to avoid having the lash applied to him, he had to have his god condone polygamy (which is adultery in all sane religions and societies), as well as pedophilia (which is what is being approved here), incest (approved earlier in the 33rd surah), unwed sex with concubines (which is fornication) and sex with slaves (which is rape).

That said, it was time for a situational scripture. Muhammad's plaything had been accused of adultery, but in order that her services might continue to arouse him, this Qur'anic surah was conveniently revealed. Qur'an 24:4 "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors." Aisha had but three accusers. How fortuitous.

Now that the witnesses have been punished and the perpetrators exonerated, Muhammad put Muslim women in their place - in submission to men. Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth. And the fifth (oath) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie." That pretty much sums up the plight of Islamic women. If their husbands say that they are bad four times, they are as good as dead. Men don't need evidence.

Returning to Muhammad's predicament, we find another series of verses that are senseless without the context of the Hadith. And within their context, they are petty and vengeful, focused on the desires of the Qur'an's author. The sheer volume of these verses should tell you all you need to know about his priorities. Qur'an 24:11 "Those who brought forward the lie are a body among you: but think it not an evil to you; on the contrary, it is good for you: to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin he earned, and for him who took the lead in the slander, his will be an awful doom. Why did not the believers, when you heard of the affair, put the best construction on it in their minds and say, 'This is an obvious lie?' Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? Since they produce not witnesses, they are liars in the sight of Allah. Were it not for His mercy a grievous penalty would have seized you in that you rushed glibly into this affair. You received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which you had no knowledge; and you thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah, a grave offense. And why did you not, when you heard it, say? 'It is not right of us to speak of this: this is a most serious slander, an awful calumny!' Allah does admonish you, that you may never repeat such, if you are Believers. And Allah makes clear the communications. Allah is the Knower, Wise. Those who love scandal to be broadcast among the Believers will have a painful punishment in this life and the hereafter."

How is it possible that a book allegedly written before the world began could focus so intently on a child accused of fornication and yet say nothing about the indiscretion that prompted the infidelity? Aisha was upset because Muhammad purchased - with money he "earned" selling children into slavery - sex with an alluring slave. It's obvious Ibn Ishaq, the prophet's earliest and most trusted biographer, and Tabari, the first Islamic historian, were bothered too. And that's why they said: Ishaq:493 "According to a man I do not suspect, and others who contributed parts of the story, a report has been assembled for you based upon what people have told me in regards to the account of Aisha's story about herself, when the authors of the lie said about her what they said." In other words, the same sources who have brought us the Hadith and Qur'an were witnesses against Aisha and thus witnesses against Muhammad and the Qur'an].

The truth is perhaps only known to Miss Aisha herself, the Habshi in question or Allah Mian perhaps.....Wallahu Aalam....

Akcheema,
I do not have an indepth knowledge of early islamic history,i will appreciate if you or someone else can shed some light on the incidence of Ayesha disappearing with some habshi.Was it just a rumour?

hamidm #36 gillani refused the "rising sun" offer to leave PPP and join the lotas in parliament despite the standard bullying of musharraf. while you and i were wasting time on chowk, he was put in jail for refusing to "cooperate" in musharraf's illegal rule. the things he was charged with would be funny if this was a theater and not real life - too much use of the telephone and cars while speaker of the house, giving jobs to 250 people in the government!!. Even these charges were subsequently thrown out of court. and he is a product of st. mary's in multan. so he cant be all bad.

btw - i see that tribal leaders in fata have joined together to declare the taliban non-muslim. maybe you should hold the nukes you were proposing for people of fata.

Re: # 38

Apologies: the last line should read

"Zeemax has made it clear that there is NO CONTRADICTION between the above-mentioned tales and the Koran/Islam!

Re: No: 32: Eklavya bhai,

Also, I forgot to mention that the same part of the world where a lot of these tales seem to emenate, there are a lot of mythological characters etc based on Mohammed himself; even now you can find pictures, with full facial features, of Mohammed, Ali and the rest of the clan displayed and sold in bazaars in Iran. These were all originally created in the middle ages as well; perhaps that correlates well with Zeemax's current version of Islam as well! "Walla-hu-aalam..."!

The Arabian Nights starts with Schehrzaad, the newly wed bride (also the daughter of the prime minister) of the King/Amir, telling him a story a night to prolong her life. The King was fed up with his ex(previously executed!)-wives infedility, and basically has a virgin a night and then has her killed in the morning, til he ran out of eligible women in his kingdom; so the prime minister's daughter (Shehrzaad) was the next "choice".

I am glad Zeemax has already made it clear that he finds NO CONTRADICTION between the above and the stated collection of tales!

Re: # 32; Eklavya
Thanks. I am not sure where the inspiration from Koran came from and how you managed to make the connection; I suppose that is what fairytales can do to you! I reckon the similarity with the Koran ends there perhaps!

Don't think too high of Pakis and too low of your Indian friends; there is very little between them in fact. Some of the Hindu creation myths are fascinating but I haven't had a chance to read the mythology in detail. Some books that might fascinate you too that I'd recommend them strongly are by Karen Armstrong, "The History of God" and "the Battle for God".

Like I said, if Islam (Arabian Nights) allows "high-breasted virgins" to have almost pornographic displays of passion with "black slaves" in peace time, bring it on!! Might make a refereshing change. Just to clarify, the virgins were ALL from "shurafa families including Royalty" in case of the arabian nights; perhaps refuting Zeemax's theory of ONLY the "murtid" women "prostituting" themselves!! May be he can clarify.....