The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

guru ji, if Hinduism is the religion of people, then it has to be the religion of the 'lower castes.' So obviously, it is the lower-caste sages who have kept us alive and going.

But I just want to be able to formally see one of them nominated a shankaracharya...It will a great symbolic thing, and will obviously upset many many good people, just because it has never been done before :)

As an Islamic equivalent, a shankaracharyas would the head of a small number of the most important mosques around the world.

tahmedji, I wish things were as simple or as good as that :(

Anybody can be a 'thinker' but the formal position of a Shankaracharya implies a certain degree of respect (not following).

We must work to be able to offer EVERYONE who prepares himself or herself through learning and other commitments the SAME respect, not deprive them because of some "caste restrictions" that more and more Hindus now find silly, at least ideally.

My guess is that to be formally one has to be a brahmin to be nominated a Shankaracharya. The position doesn't mean much to many many Hindus, but it is important symbolically.

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As I said, if my grandfather heard me say this, he would have thrown a fit, but then he lived at a different time, and we live in a new time. At least I can dream :)

eklavia: i dont think there is any restriction on a dalit from becoming a thinker of deep thoughts (aka shankacharya per my google check). so how does hinduism come in the way?

#367 "No one needs to be Hindu, religion wise. It's your culture .. one cannot change his parents."

this must be the famous hindu logic. by this logic, you should be walking on all fours - since that is the way your ancestors walked 20-30 million years ago.

Re: # 366:
Ekbhai,

No one needs to be Hindu, religion wise. It's your culture .. one cannot change his parents.

What is this RSS? There is a school in Pune DnyanPrabhodini which my boys attended initially hesitantly, instead of MercBenz IB school. We had reservations about the school because the school was Marathi medium and was founded by some one who was associated with RSS and the school maintains strong links to RSS. Boys really enjoyed esp travel/trips to remote part of India. Working with hands in fields and selling books. Their language barrier and diffidences disappeared in no time. Our boys ran a canteen on their own based on the diet based on Ayurved for age 13-14 year old. The syllabus is CBS. The difference is learning Sanskars such as Upanayan. Upanayan is done by every one even girls. Mind that we are not Bramhin. In the first week our driver was furious because our sons had to be taken to the worst part of the town in a slum area for a birthday party of their classmate. Whole class spent half a day in one room slum hut. A generation or two back even though I attended "Rs.2 per month school", never had a Bhangi as a peer. More than thirty percent of the class belongs to the lowest of the strata. Not reservation but school reaches out and teachers/student/alumni prepare the kids from this strata, so that they clear the school entrance exam whose results are 1-2% get admition. School with the help of students runs a migratory school and health camps for kids of migrant workers and construction workers. School is big on Jungian Psychology. In my time the school used to send the most no of kids to IITs in Maharashtra. Thru my leftist goggle I had saw the school of Bramhin and for Bramhin. Some of the dedicated teachers are OBCs and even SC/S. I hate to use these castists terms. The school was refreshing oasis in the desert of consumerim and superficial westernization in the name of globalization. Kids were exposed to the good of India. Kids learned classical music, bharat natyam, Marathi drama without losing anyhing in Math & Science. Social Project based approach made real growth possible. If I compare to my schooling in Kolhapur ... learned nothing besides gali-galloch and fighting .. shear wastage of childhood..

Shankarachayas are happening from lower castes for some time. Thanks to Ch Shahu of Kolhapur. The recent one is Narendra Maharaj who is from SC/ST... may not be exactly Harijan. If u r raising ur consciousness then title of Shankaracharya of certain Peethas does not matter to u. Hindu culture is not dependent on these peethas. Sufi Saibaba preserves Hinduism much better. Most of the Swamis and Rishis were Dalit. SC/ST or nonBramhins such as Chinmayanand, Valmiki, Vyasa, Kabir, Rohidas, most of the Varakari Sants were nonBramhi, Dalits and one Muslim.

So if I were u, unless I experience some thing bad I would not label because of some columnist writing/shouting in his echo chamber. My experience is limited ie thru this school. But it was so much better that my own reservation about RSS have disappeared. They might be little uncompromising idealist. The school had large portraits of Mahatma Phule, Ambedkar, Shivaji and surprisingly of Arabindo. Principal an RSS member had association to Pondichery.

Vengat

I, personally, will be happy being a 'Hindu' when a 'Dalit' becomes a Shankaracharya. Until then, the base-level Indic faith is simply not living upto its potential.

That idea would have made my grandfather very upset, would have made my dad chuckle, and positively excites me. So we will see how long it takes to materialize. Slow and steady..., since are not revolutionizing people.

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nkg, guru bhai

You put us in a difficult situation. Some of what you say is true - Baba Sahib had his great strengths, other leaders had theirs. Isn't combining the strengths of great poeple and great ideas, and respecting them all if they respect us, our great strength?

Some of what you wrote, I would submit is not totally fair. Baba Sahib worked with different actors to get the best deal possible WITHOUT hurting anyone else, and when Gandhi ji put his put down (for ultimately, good of all, as we saw later) he complied. He was a great constitutionalist, no doubt, but he was above all, a man of a great heart. And he really had no reason to have any love for the RSS or anybody else who did not reach out to him.

We are not a land of perfect people. And we don't have to agree with every aspect of everybody. Our great things get done because everybody does his or her little part, sometimes happily, sometimes unhappily, without breaking the house down. Nothing is gained by abusing Gandhi for drinking goat's milk. And nothing at all by expecting Baba Sahib to have been the all-knowing, all-capable perfect man.

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Yes, tamil brahmins have gotten a raw deal. But, as a fan of Tamilians in general, I can tell you, they are ALL great and brilliant folks, brahmins and non-Brahmins. As to discrimination, I have always argued that they have carried the heavey burden of our collective sins, not just their own. Let's hope the pendulum swings back to the middle soon.

(Sorry for the soap box. I just feel strongly about this issue. Hope you would not take any of this amiss. Thanks for understanding.)

Re: # 364
Molega,

My dad always says that Thamizh Brahmin girls make great wives and mothers...:)

Nkg,

There are always two sides to a coin...I don't believe, assuming you are from a different state, it is easy for a non-Tamil to have a clear grasp of the complete picture.

Re: # 362

Molaga,

Thanks for slowing down things. I do not see Tamizh :) Brahmins as aliens and I have never done that in the past. I will have to tell you that I have spent a big part of my childhood in the Agraharam. My family has supported them quite decently. My dad's brother, a doctor, has been practicing his profession in Agraharam for the past 30 years. He is a very religious man and Periyaval and others in the mutt knew him very well.

I think this should have given you a clear idea about my moorings. To be candid, Tamizh Brahmins have come out, to my understanding, of what could be termed as their difficult period. Though I do not want to dwell on it for long, I can say that Periyar had the right reasons. I see they have melted into the rest of the population without any trace. Its my conviction that they have understood the danger of isolating from the rest of society.

It is quite painful when somebody tries to picture Non-Brahmin Tamizhs as hate mongers and people of lower intellect when comparing to the Brahmins. It's commonsense that intelligence cannot be inherited.

Brahmins belong to this land as much as anybody else. Nkg's was a false assertion and it was a sweeping statement. I believe in reacting proportionally.

I am not a great admirer of Karunanidhi but when you look at things objectively he has been good to the Brahmins than Jayalalitha. But for him Sankaracharyas would have been spending their days in the jail and JJ was behind it.

I hope Harimaus of Chowk understand or stop feigning that they don't understand. In todays Tamilnadu, Brahmins are as much relevant as they were in the pre-DK period. They have not lost their social standing as you claim though they do not pull the strings from the top anymore. At a societal level they still wield enormous influence.

I have to leave now...I would want to speak to you on reservation and the reasons behind it...

P.S:- I have seen Brahmins coming to my dad's brother to know which way the cotton should be wound for kuthuvilakku wick ;)...

manto writes "How is it a Strawman?

Did you not write this?

"Muslims would have become a formidable force in India politically if this division didn't fragment them into 3"


Lawyer sahib, you really need to work on your comprehension abilities, that was presented by me not as a "cause" of the partition but a "consequence" of it- thereby busting the farcial reason presented by the MAJ and his colonial "behind the scenes" partners that Muslims of India would somehow be strenghtened by the partition so they should go for it....you are still pushing that argument when you claim- without knowing a goddmaned thing about me- that were it not for Jinnah I'd be in some sewer somewhere...like I said earlier the Church of MAJ is dead and soon it will be expunged from the minds of the Muslims of Pakistan- they are getting conscious with every new shenanigan of the US elite. Recently Nawaz Sharif surprised me by saying " For the peace of others, we will not turn Pakistan into a killing field", tells me that this is a apt reply to Bush and the Hamid types who tout " If we don't fight them there we will be fighting them at home in the US"

Dear Vengat # 361 and 360

I wonder what prompted ur outburst against nkg. I don't agree to his views...but ur remarks on Tamizh Brahmins were unwarranted and uncharitable.

The TN Brahmins have a deep sense of alienation....not because of the fine Tamil people, who have always recognised and respected Brahmins as resourceful and industrious people, but because of the anti-brahmanical stance of the Governing class. The real issue for Brahmins in TN is NOT one of opportunity (they are capable of finding their way)....but the anti-brahmanical polemic from the Political class.
(For e.g, even in the middle of 2007 Karunanidhi made unpleasant remarks on brahmins and when the OBC saga erupted, the pro-quota brigade in TN turned their ire towards brahmins).

Unfortunately, even you seem to have taken this recourse - of calling them crammers and people who wagged their tails for the Brits. Please review the freedom struggle in TN and you will find quite a lot of Tamil Brahmins taking lead in the struggle.

The brahmins benefitted mostly because a majority of them were based in cities and in industrial towns and hence had access to English education. Once educated they managed to establish themselves as doctors and other professionals.

Periyar (and later Karunanidhi) rightfully broke the Brahmin dominance and today they have absolutely NO political/economical clout.

P.S -
1. Throwing away all philosphical/religious discouse into garbage, the TN brahmins are a separate group in themselves. I don't know if words like separate "race" or "ethnicity" can be attributed...but the Tamil Brahmin's group-allegiance is NOT merely restricted to religious principles.

2. I support caste-based reservations...but NOT the way it is implemented in TN where it is heavily stacked in favor of the cream amongst BCs, MBCs and even in certain SCs. 89% of Tamizhs are grouped under one of the quota category. Do u genuinely think that 89% of Tamizhs are backward ?? Obviously not.

3. I know the difference in the cut-offs for BCs and OCs is negligible. But that beggars the question - why then the difference in categories. Can't then the BC category be merged with the OC category ??

Nkg,

If you are serious to know about What, Why and How of TN history, I am open for a discussion of a place of your choice. But, yes that is contingent on the deliverables I have at work.

As an appetizer or to give you a head start, try to find out the cut-off difference, for all courses, between open category and the rest of them, in Tamilnadu...


Ciao

Re: # 347

Nkg,

"In Tamilnadu, more than 67% seats are reserved (now Karunanidhi included Muslims and Christians) to suppress Tamil brahmins...That failed"

I am sorry I have to disagree...Can you tell me what failed? It was not aimed at suppressing Brahmins but to enable the uninitiated masses into education. Please do not attribute this ingenuity to Karunanidhi, rather it was advocated by Periyar.

Tamil Brahmins are enterprising people like the rest of the discriminated people. The nature of their profession, which they had been practicing for several 100 years, gave them an unfair edge over others to master Lord Macaulay's idea of education.

Until Lord Macaulay's education gained importance, everyone were educated as far as their domains were concerned. Now tell me what can a history graduate IAS, if you want him to be a Brahmin the be it so, bring in path breaking ideas into the already teetering Indian agri? Brahmins took their cramming ability as an undue advantage to lord over other communities. The problem further aggravated when they cosied up with the British and became one within...

Now tell me if the inventors had been Brahmins, why is that the Brahmins during the British rule did not have in their posession all of the knowledge you claim that they already posessed?

Nobody feels happy to see Brahmins suffer in Tamilnadu...Do you know the latest comedy that happened in TN. The TN government has promulgated that anybody could be a priest provided he learn all that are required to be...You have for many times told that a Brahmin is not because of his lineage but due to the knowledge, wisdom and virtues that are in his posession. Now tell me why would the Brahmins oppose the move? Why is that they are against devotees praising God in Tamil Thevaram.

Thevaram is a collection of songs in praise of Shiva...

When Sankaracharya Swamigal reinforced that Brahmins way of life, why is that nobody heeded to him? Do you the latest happenings in Kanchi Mutt? But for Karunanidhi both of the swamigal would have been savouring the delicacies served in Tamilnadu jails...

Before the advent of Macaulay's education, majority of the doctors, administrators, engineers were all non-brahmins. Now I am not trying to say that Brahmins cannot aspire for these professions. After the new sysem of education got introduced, people who practiced knowledge acquisition through practice and observation were relegated to the periphery...better they totally denied to practice what they were doing for generations...Simply because they were practicing knowledge acquisition in a different form they could not adapt to the new requirements of cramming.

Also when others are ok to let Brahmins into other professions why do they oppose, in Tamilnadu, others to enter into their domain?

Re: # 291
Who needs planted royalty to tell THIS to the believers? The oneness of God was pronounced not 1400 years ago, but much before that.

Too bad, you got the news now; but it's never too late.

Shanti.

Re: # 281
Red-flagged? I'm sure that was done by those who 'know not what they do'.

If this is from the man I'm hinting at, he ought to be man enough to say that it is him!

If this is a belated reaction of the editors, what can I say? I've already said enough to them.

If this is done by someone who is sick and tired of being corrected, I say,"The best is yet to come".

Peace to the shattered.

Re: # 344

How is it a Strawman?

Did you not write this?

"Muslims would have become a formidable force in India politically if this division didn't fragment them into 3"

I am assuming the entire thing was a grand white conspiracy against "coloreds" then?