The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

Re: # 128; bjkumar bhai,
"and if they could somehow rejuvenate the Jinnah that will be just fine – "

Right again sir; Jinnah was a deeply anglicised agnostic (at best) who, from a practicle viewpoint, had as much to do with Islam as a humble murtid such as myself!

akcheema: these are certainly important subjects. seems to me our country was hijacked not by maulvis but by musharraf and his lotas , though. and now the pakistani people have taken it back by force.

as for maulvis, they were merely convenient lotas (in case of fazloo) on the one hand, or convenient bogeymen (in case of alo qaeda and co) he used to prolong the time he jijacked the nation.

its all very simple, IF one is prepared to look at realities and actions, rather than the hollow words this man dishes out every day.

i am not sure what your article is about, or why you think i could help you, though. i will be glad to discuss any ideas or issues you may wish to to discuss on chowk, however. i can discuss offline too - but on chowk you get the benefit of other opinions too.

Re: # 130; tahmed
"or why you think i could help you, though"

sorry have i missed something? when did i ask for anyone's help?

Cheema sahib, for what it is worth, it is entirely possible that the Mushy was not despotic at the outset. He said he took the "job" not because he wanted to, but because of fate.

However, in the absence of any checks and balances, it was only a matter of time before he would turn autocratic. That same thing has happened to other military rulers AND the civilian leaders too.

Whether a system of checks and balances can ever be created without affecting the "Islamic" character of the self-professed "Islamic Republic" is a matter that can be debated endlessly.

I do not believe the Jinnah had a solution for that problem.

It is because of this reason that we have erected a strong, tall wall separating the state from the Church in the USA.

After all, secularism would be rather difficult to practice if the USA were the "Christian States of America"!

Somehow, the contradiction between setting up an "Islamic" republic and practicing secularism does not seem to rattle my Pakistani brothers and sisters too much!

"Mera khota naseeb!" (Long breath)

Re: # 132; bjkumar

If I had a say in the matter, I'd employ you to re-write our Pakistan Studies textbooks!

Jinnah had no idea man; he was, upto the last minute, hoping for a con-federation type arrangement with Nehru. The partition as we know it now was never in anyone's mind including "Iqbal the rhetorician". It was always "muslim majority provinces to have jurisdiction over there affairs UNDER THE STATUTE OF WESTMINSTER"!

He didn't know what hit him when he swore in as GG of "the Dominion of Pakistan",; statesman my ar..! Least he could have done in the year and a half he was around after the mess was to give SOME SORT OF A DIRECTION rather than quoting "the law-giver, prophet of Islam", who he knew nothing about!

#133 bjkumar: you reduce bjp seats in lok sabha to the number of religious party seats in pakistanis national assembly (3), then come talk about secularism.

Re: # 119

Tahmed sahib:

Aap mein bahut gussa hai, Musharraff ke khilaaf. Whatever, it is please do not take away the crdit of brining free and fair election and restoring grass root democracy from him.

Tahmed sahib, his public prosecution should be postponed by 10 - 15 years. You must not let him be lynched.

Re: # 135; tahmed

I think you are completely detached from reality; or you have your own version of it.

Pakistani politics has always followed the feudalistic system that was never eradicated. Just read what Mr Naqshbandi has said on another board; he is prepared to carry Gilani's shoes to display his respect and to honour this "syed-zaada's" ancestors.

What hope is there for the common joe bloggs in the street? Like I said, it is different when one is completely de-tached from the process....go and do surveys amongst the masses to find out why they vote for whoever they vote; the result may prove more sobering than you think!

I say this coming from a "paindoo" background, or describe it however you will.

#136 anil sahib: you think musharraf had a choice in these free and fair elections? i am not calling for him to be lynched - only that he be treated in accordance with the law, and not be placed above the law. so please dont attribute views to me.

#137 cheema sahib: what did i say that is divorced from reality? and the "survey" was already held on feb 18. so please dont write as if it never happened. the people have spoken loud and clear, so dont write as if they never spoke. hundreds of pakistanis have been killed int he process. the democracy forces are united.

the maulvis, the militarists and the lotas and the man-who-would-be-hosni-mubarak are in disarray. that is the reality of pakistan today.

Re: # 138; tahmed

Mush did what he could, only not enough. He should have learnt something from Hafiz-ul-Asad (Hama 1982), who sorted out Islamism in Syria for a long time to come!

It would appear that is the only language these pathetic representations of protoplasm understand; sure as day after night, they won't even spare the likes of "moderates - whatever that is" like you unless you conformed.

So thank your lucky stars for living where you live and don't knock it like every other Paki I have seen!

#140 akcheema sahib: Asad killed 10,000 people in Syria, make himself dictator for life, and then left the "throne" to his son. This may be OK with you. It is not OK with most Pakistanis.

And these were 10,000 human beings - fathers, sons, mothers, daughters - not "pathetic representations of protoplasm" I am talking about. Please practice what you preach when it comes to "moderation".

Re: # 135

Tahmed sahib:

Neither BJ nor anyone can send BJP back to 2 or 3 seats in the Parliament. This is the reality of India, as a viable alternative to Congress is essential. Two umbrella organizations for regional parties are needed.

More appropriate would be to let BJ kind of BJP walahs to put relentless pressure on BJP to get rid of Modis and other RSS fascists. BJP is an opportunistic party, and can change faster than a chameleon.

Everyone, including BJP walahs in the U.S., believes that if BJP had brought the deal with the U.S., it would have supported even the worst deal. The same is said about the negotiations with Pakistan, leave it to BJP, else it will never go through. I am surprised to see young Indian generation here to include Laddus, Rangers, and Harimaus. Keeping them in minority is so important whichever party they belong.

anil sahib: If I was Indian, I would no doubt be concerned with exactly the same issues that you describe about BJP and can understand your frustrations with them.

Re: # 141 tahmed

you mean like ZAB left the throne for BB, and her for Zardari/Bilawal?