The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

Re: # 45; tahmed Bhai

Like I said before, I have absolutely no problem with YOUR religion/belief system; whatever it may be, it can't be labelled mainstream Islam. I only hope there ARE others like you in the Muslim world.

Problem with your assertion with "my fascination" is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND IS ASKING ANYONE TO FOLLOW THESE GUYS AS ROLE MODELS; Islam's whole edifice is based on Mohammed, his Koran and Sunnah and it is followed blindly, without question, by the majority of his followers. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

No one in their right mind, nowadays, is blowing themselves up or killing someone else to protect the honour of their prophets but us muslims. So why should't we elaborate a bit on what we have been asked to follow blindly since birth?

I find your examples and the logic quite out of place here if I am allowed to say it. Besides, it was in reply to someone else's request and the parenthesis indicates, it is not my personal opinion but someone else's. You, or anyone else, is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

Amir Hamza's story, alongwith Umro Ayyar etc are part of OUR culture; I grew up with them same as anyone else from that background. Unfortunately, they have been presented here as a representation of "Islamic Culture". Like bjk said, why can't they be enjoyed by all without having to PROVE the connection with the Koran/Islamic tradition etc.

Please read my first few contributions on this board and tell me if you have further issues with it; I await your reply. Thanks.

I hope this Amir Hamza was as quick witted a chap as my friend Abu bhai!!!

Regards

doctor sahib #49: your point about the prophet being made a role model is well made. but note - no one harps on the fact that he had multiple wives, and certainly pakistanis are no more likely to have multiple wives than any other people. when he is set up to be a role model by ordinary pakistanis (the mainstream, if you will), it is with respect to universally accepted values like honesty, integrity etc. references are given to his final sermon where he spoke about respect for all religions.

so who harps on his multiple wives and other aspects of his private life? first, european priesthood of the middle ages(and that is where my example of lucretia borgia becomes relevant) who hated islam as causing schism among believers (the exact charge that Dante made against him in is not-so-Divine Inferno) and whose hypocrisy (high living, sex scandals) are too well known for me to mention. second, hindus obsessed with intimidating and demonizing minority religions within their country who have picked up on this theme and try to ape the west by repeating this ridicule of his private life, ignoring the primitive and sexually-laced customs in their own communities. So, my reference to the lingum worship was quite relevant. their hypocrisy is also too well known. third, it is muslims like yourself and hamidm, who (as you yourselves have indicated) both seem to have been raised in ultra-conservative families are so are revolting against it as adults.

this is not a particularly mature reaction, and you will simply be making your children feel insecure and feel bad about their heritage.. when in fact they should be celebrating both their pakistani heritage as well as the broader heritage of all humanity that every educated person has and which every pea-brained chauvinist (whether hindu or muslim) will never have.

my question to you is this: if you have no problem with my understanding of islam, why do you chose to sideline it? what do you think you are achieving with this?

Re: # 51; tahmed bhai

I didn't chose to sideline anything. It is all a result of rational analysis. It is always very difficult for one to explain the reason for being an atheist to a believer.

Just because I think you are a decent person, I don't have to subscribe to your beliefs.

My critique is more to do with making people think; who knows where skepticism can take us!

I feel I have a morally fulfilled and happy life and I simply donot need religion/god etc; all I want is others (especially from similar religio-cultural backgrounds) to enjoy the same freedom of thought as well. I have no personal axe to grind with this god person; for that one has to acknowledge their existence (that issue has been addressed elsewhere - may be you can run through my posts over the last month if you have the time).

My only child is well adjusted and I have already talked about her upbringing elsewhere, probably on Gill Sahib's Bulleh Shah board, so feel free to jog your memory.

The final sermon, incidently, doesn't talk about all this lovey dovey stuff you seem to be referring to; may be we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

It is well past my bedtime so I'd have to say Shab Bakhair to you. Talk to you soon, Insha-allah!

Re: # 51

tahmed, bewakoof!

"it is muslims like yourself and hamidm, who (as you yourselves have indicated) both seem to have been raised in ultra-conservative families are so are revolting against it as adults. "

..... how the hell did you figure that out ?..... that is slander and i have half a mind to sue you for slandering my father and mother (god bless their souls) ..... my father, in particular, must be turning in his grave! ... other than twice a year when, after a hectic search, he put on his karakul cap and headed off to the ghq ground to offer his eid prayers behind ayub khan, yahya khan and bhutto khan, the man left god and his prophet alone ...... he also liked his scotch and i suspect he made a decent second income playing bridge .... his most famous quote is, "anyone who does not have a vice is either an angel or a chutiya!" ......i think that he had people like you in mind when he made that comment ....... and my mother was a spiritual person, but hers was a benign form of islam that revolved around halwa, kheer, chahar shamba, shab-i-barat, zarda and mounting blackened handis on the roof or sacrificing black bakras to ward off evil spirits .....

..... i demand an apology for insulting the memory of my parents

#43 Posted by hamidm2,

cowasjee - he has been around longer than even you and he says, "yeh sala sub chore hai" ....

Sure. He's been around long enough to have been in zina-ul-fuck's cabinet as federal shipping minister.

This senile bugger is only pissed because no other government took him seriously ... ignored as a buffoon ... just as one hamidm2 of chowk.com.

hamidm: OK, i'll admit that i was too stressed with exams once to take advantage of an outstanding opportunity for committing vice that literally walked into my room. however, i am slandered by your innuendo that i am incapable of vice. in fact, the time i waste on chowk is proof is a vice!!

ok, so your illustrious father was not one of the ultraconservatives, nor did i mention him particularly. but you did mention once some relations like that more than one time.

coming to your mom - that is a different story. She is obviously an example of the Islam I am talking about. Is her understanding of Islam in any way less valid than that of a muslim version of jeremiah wright??!! In fact, she is exactly the way my elders were - kind and gentle people. So next time you get the urge to claim that islam drives people to become criminals, tht i am in fact not the mainstream, think of your mom and dad and how you are turning them into non-persons when you claim that only urstruly represents islam.

I rest my case.

Re: # 55

tahmed,

....... unfortunately, my parent's brand of islam is dead or dying and today's resurgent islam is correctly represented by people like urstruly and zeemax ...... when i was growing up wahabis were considered to be a small cult and people whispered about them - today it is the dominant strain of the islam virus ......

....... i still demand an apology

Re: # 54

zeemax,

.... i sincerely hope the senile old fool is wrong, but i am still a little sceptical that these leopards can change their spots .....

#53 Posted by hamidm2,

With due respect, did your revered mom (May Allah bless her) also throw saffron colour on you playing holi holi?

akcheema sahib: sleep well sir, and take good care of your patients tomorrow. i am not pushing any beliefs on you (how could i even if i wanted to?). but if you are going to jump onto the bandwagon of long-dead hypocrites in the vatican jeering the prophet's personal life, i have a right to put things in perspective. which is what i did in #51 and which i hope you will keep in mind next time you get the urge to jump on the bandwagon along with some head-shaking dot-wearing hi-b from madras.

hamidm: apologize for what? i didnt specify your parents, and as i said you did mention some ultra-conservative relatives as examples. if you tell me that in fact it is not their brand of islam that you criticize, then that is a change from what you wrote earlier.

if your parents version of islam is dying, you are certainly contributing to it by denying it the same legitimacy that you give to urstruly's brand.

#57 Posted by hamidm2,

As usual you're evading the main argument. How dare this senile old fool ridicule democratic institutions for misdeeds of the past while himself having hobnobbed in the past with people like zina-ul-fuck who flogged journalists - during this fool's tenure as an unelected federal minister - and hanged the elected prime minister?

That was the question.

akcheema ji, thanks for the ton of information you provided. You raised so many points that I must beg your indulgence in not addressing them all right now. Allow me to make only a couple of points, which we may, if they interst you at all, discuss over time.

1. By far, most importantly, I would re-iterate for the nth time (and hope you would give this serious consideration): Islam's ideal is NOT blind belief. One can easily rank order the preferred form of Islamic beliefs as follows:

(1) Considered, thoroughly questioned, belief wherein one discovers for one's private self SOME WY/ANY WAY to answer natural human questions to re-affirm faith in Islam. This is the much-celebrated "no-church" (knowledge-based) view.

(2) One follows a wali, a learned person, who has understood Islam, and one is therefore certain that one is on the right path by following such a person. This is the sufi (love-based) view.

(3) One really doesn't get into the specifics of Islam and considers all must be right, and focuses on matters of day-to-day living. This is probably the 'vast majority' (good-life or action-based) view.

(4) One gets caught up with black bakra charms and even blacker handi objects. Many knowledgeable Muslims will call that the superstititious and ignorant (kufr-based) view.

(5) Some people born in Islamic world, for whatever personal reasons, can't accept 1-4. But sooner or later they come to fully realize that all opposition is futile; and then they settle down to a life of private grumblings, smart-alec comments when they feel safe, and fake public smiles and pretense of adherences to Islam in view of friends and family. These people count for nothing, but if they achieve anything, immediately their achievements are celebrated as Islamic achievements.

1-5 are perfectly acceptable forms of Islam, and all those who follow them are ultimately 'good and acceptable' Muslims. However,

(6) Some, again for whatever reasons, are unable to stay even at level of Islamic belief, and begin to publicly oppose Islam itself (not other peoples' "interpretation" or understanding of Islam).

Islam cuts off these people's reproductory system.

----- This has gotten longer than I expected. Will address the rest of the points later, if you don't completely lose patience. Best regards.--------

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zee boss, only a fool and a Hindu will read all this as just pure fiction and bed-side entertainment.

Re: # 61

zeemax,

.... let's not go there ..... he is not talking about institutions, he is talking about people ..... and if you are talking about people who hobnobbed with zina-ul-fuck, let's not forget that both nawaz sharif and yousaf gilani belong in that category - both earned their wings under the abu bakr of pakistan ...... let's move on

hamid writes "....... unfortunately, my parent's brand of islam is dead or dying and today's resurgent islam is correctly represented by people like urstruly and zeemax ...... "

Last I read your dimwitted posts, your blanket condemnation of Islam went back in history much further than the 1950s and 1960s, you were taking your BS blanket condemnations all the way back to the time of the prophet, now when your parents are involved, you do a turnaround....reminds me of how Bush used the gassing of Halabja to justify attacking Saddam in 2003! ....keep it up hypocrite