The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot

To claim anything from teh moghul era as isalmic os plain stupid. Islam was overrun by the hinduism as a superior religion to teh extend that akbar foud islam to be of no value and created a new religion called din-illahi. No muslim could have done that.

So the hamza, who ever that is cannot be a mulsim as we understand it today.

One should not forget that a scholl teacher in pakista who said taht the father of mohammed could not have been born a muslim was arrested under blsaphemy laws and killed. That is islam, and to say that akbar who created a new religion was a muslim has no idea about islam. One should also rember taht the the teaher in pakistan was sentenced to death by the paki sharia court, manned by the best isalmic scholars of pakistan.

...the adventures of amir hamza is a classic......i had read it by the time i was eight.....i recently purchased the english translation.....

amir hamza, umro ayyar, lindhor, aadi pehelvan, hamza's two son's (one who appears in the 9th volume).......i haven't even started reading the english version, but can remember the names from almost 30 years ago....

and of course, the second series, with all the magicians....afrasiyaab, and malika bihar......

brings back memories.....

William, take your sophistry elsewhere.

excellent article. kudos to chowk for publishing it--i am definitely going to buy the book. It is THE Islamic epic (with the possible exception of Alf Layla wa Layla (1001 Nights). Great review by Mr. Dalrymple too.

Thanks :-)

Great essay!
I really liked it. I grew up in Lahore, Pakistan and reading was one of my great past times. In my grandfather's library there was this really thick and very old volume of Daastaan-e-Amir Hamza and it was written in old urdu. It had some pages missing in the front and the back, but nevertheless it was one of my most favorite books to read. It transported one immediately into a land of magic and fantasy.

There was also another version of the Daastan-e-Amir Hamza which was published by Feroz sons, although I cant seem to remember the name of the author. I really liked that version too as it was written in more modern urdu and included characters from magical realms like Tilsm-Hoshrubaa. My favorite characters was Malika Bahar who later marries Amir Hamza and helps in the fight against the evil Shehenshah Afrasiyaab.

I would love to buy this book.

Seems like a great book of stories!

Wonder if the stories have any specific theme(s)...

jayp,

Wud u make little of Panchatantra?

Pl read that book.

Takes me back to my childhood; Umro Ayyar and his Zanbeel!

What has all this got to do with Islam again?

Re: # 7

VRV

I was only questioning the notion that the book is islamic, especially written during the moghul times.

It sounds like a definite buy .. Cheers for the reveiw :)

FYI

William will be in Berkeley on April 2nd.



CSAS Public Lecture Series

The Last Mughal:
The Fall of a Dynasty, Delhi 1857

talk & book-signing by

William Dalrymple

Writer & Historian


Wednesday, April 2, 2008
6 pm,

Morrison Room, 101 Doe Library


Flyer: http://southasia.berkeley.edu/flyers/William_Dalrymple_Flyer.pdf
Directions: Morrison Library is on the right once you enter the Doe Library from its North entrance.

**************
Center for South Asia Studies
10 Stephens Hall, #2310
University of California
Berkeley, CA 94720-2310
http://ias.berkeley.edu/southasia/

(510) 642-3608 (Phone)
(510) 643-5793 (Fax)

Re: # 8 Akcheema sahib why you nare worried about Islamic references always?

Re: # 11 JUST WONDER HOW MUCH THEY CHARGE FOR ENTRANCE IN USA AND ENGLAND GENERALLY FOR SUCH SOCIAL FUNCTIONS
I AM TOLD THEY KEEP ALL SWEETS LIKE CAKES, BISCUITS, AND COFFEE AND TEA AS MUCH AS YOU WANT.HERD IN COLLEGES SUCH PROGRAMS ARE GOING ALL TIME AND ONE CAN LIVE ON CAKES, COFFEE AND BISCUITS.
WONDER IS IT TRUE SITUATION.
I HEARD MOST PEOPLE EAT BISCUITS AND DRINK COFFEE TOGTHER TILL STOMACH IS FILLED AND THEN GO SLEEP AND WHEN GET UP THEY JUST GET UP TO NEXT LECTURE CIRCUIT.
CAN ANY BODY PUT HONEST LIGHT ON SITUATION, HEARD IN UK PEOPLE ARE MORE CULTURED THEY DO NOT SNORE WHILE SLEEPING WHEN LECTURE IS GOING , IT IS CONSIDERED NOT GENTLEMAN OR LADY LIKE.

To clear up jayp's confusion, it is important to remember that the reference of 'India' and 'indian' is misleading in this context. 'Hindustani' would be more appropriate reference for the world breathing in the urdu versions of Amir Hamza stories. This would not be a geographical locus but a lingo-emotional heritage spread out IN PART between generations in Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran.

Of course, Dalrymple cannot be trusted with his assertions about the Mughal court world being 'nuanced' in the stories because there is nothing of the sort going on. People who can vouch for that are the kids who grew up reading these stories and in the opinion of one, the world of zanbeel and jaadoogar and jinn was not of this world...

Re: # 12; mahfari:

Strange question since the article is titled "The Irreverent Hero Islam Forgot".

It is a bunch of fascinating stories that, alongwith the "arabian nights" have nothing to do with any religion BUT geography. Same applies to, for example, "the Canterbury Tales" by chaucer; no relation to religion per se but an important contribution to middle english literature.

I hope that clarifies it for you.

Cheers.

Re: # 15; mahfari sahib,
please pay attention to what the author is trying to say here before we all get on our high horses as usual. I quote the last paragragh:

"At this perilous moment in history, the Hamza epic, with its mixed Hindu and Muslim idiom, its tales of love and seduction, its anti-clericalism — mullahs are a running joke throughout the book — its stories of powerful and resourceful women and its mocking of male misogyny is a reminder of an Islamic world which the West seems to have forgotten: one that is syncretistic, imaginative and heterodox and as far as can be imagined from the puritanical Wahhabi Islam that the Saudis have succeeded in spreading throughout much of the modern Islamic world".

I hope this provides some further, unfortunately very desired, clarification in today's world of religious puritanicalism.

....if i remember correctly, amir hamza is actually pre-islamic......the religion hamza refers to in his journeys, is din-e-ibrahimi......the abrahamic faith.......not islam.....

people tend to equate amir hamza with muhammad's uncle.......however, that cannot be the case.....amir hamza's colleagues and journeys are into magical kingdoms covering superstitions and wars and what not....

....the stories start with three individuals - hamza, his friend umro ayyar and a third person - when they are children.......and it goes on till they build an army of partners from all over the world......

i believe the person from india was lindhor......who carries the world's biggest gurz (?) on his shoulders, and is undefeatable in battle, until hamza defeats him......after which lindhor joins hamza's army.....

malika bihar is a very power magician, who seduces everyone around her, through the use of magical flowers....

anyways, things that i remember from around 30 years ago......

Re: # 17 bulleya:

The character IS based on Hamza, Mohammed's uncle but only in name. In chronological terms it is from the middle ages, Turko-Persian with Arabic and Indian refernces to suggest a wider, more inclusive base. Also, the "Koh-e-Kaaf ki Pariyan" and the whole "Ko-e-Kaaf" concept is based on the "Caucases" in Southern Russia bordering onto North Iran and modern day Turkey; the mountains separating the two terrains gave an extra dimension to the imaginative work, with the "lure of the fairies of the Caucases - Koh'Kaaf ki pariyan" maintained throughout!

"build an army of partners......"

Wow! Is this an army, or a bunch of traders, or an early version of East India Company as it might appear to some kids in Britain?

Hope that is a misunderstanding...:)

Cheema ji

From bulleya's #17, this seems like a fantasy/dream/story of Arabic (Persian?) world conquest using magic, trade, and social relations.

Since it is an important book, I don't want to misconstrue it. Would you please comment? Thanks.

Re: # 20; Eklavya bhai,

I haven't read this particular book but the comments I made earlier were based on by childhood readings, mostly in Urdu and Persian (via a granparent). These characters, I reckon, developed and evolved rather than created on the spot by one author.

If you read Persian literature, especially what permeated into the western part and parts of northern Pakistan (the Kailash velley, e.g.,), there are folk tales of "Iskander", a mythological character based on "Alexander - the Macedonian". Characters evolve, and eventually through many generations of Chinese whispers, turn into totally different people.

My understing about "Daastan-e-Amir Hamza" is it is of Persio-Turkic origin but I am happy to stand corrected on this.

I think sometimes it is good to just enjoy the work rather than split hairs and perhaps leave that to the "Dan Browns" to find hidden agendas/meanings etc. As one of my favourite authors Douglas Adams said:

"Isn't it enough to see that the garden is beautiful than having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

Re: # 21

P.S.: Since you happen to be so deep in Islamic religious teachings at present - or probably always have been - one such example of chinese whispers can be found in Shia mythology. Around "Ashoora" in early Muharram (beginning of Islamic year), Hussain (grandson of Mohammed)'s battle of "Karbala" fought(?) with the Yezidian army is narrated ad-nauseum by "Zaakirs"; the colourful narrations, mutually contradictory at times, are just so fasinating; if only Hussain (or Mohammed for that matter) had any idea! One can only wonder!

Do read the "Arabian nights - Alif Laila, i.e., One thousand and One nights". Absolutely fascinating with, at times, explicit accounts of "high-breasted virgins" having it off with "black slaves"! If you can't read it in Arabic or Urdu, I recommend Richard Burton's translation in classic English; most interesting read.

Cheers.

i think it would seem to be accurate to say that the daastaan e amir hamza is definitely a pan-islamic work of fantasy literature; hazrat sayyid al shuhada hamza ibn abd al muttalib al hashmi (may Allah be well pleased with him) was the uncle of the Prophet Muhammad alayhisalatuwasalam but he was martyred in one of the earlier battles. I wonder how his legendary exploits on the battlefield became transformed into this tale of epic proportions?

I can't wait to buy it and read it!

BOYCOTT CHINA. STOP CHINESE HEGEMONY. FREE TIBET.

send the pakistani hosni mubarak-wannabe to tibet!!

Re: # 26

tahmed,

... uh?.... your mush fixation is getting out of hand ..... this board is discussing the exploits of amir hamza, your prophet's uncle .... i remember my grand mother telling me stories about how amir hamza went to koh-i-kaaf to free husn pari from the chungals of the zalim jinn ....... are you suggesting that mushy is the zalim jinn and the cj is the husn pari - the man does look like a fairy and mush has that evil look ...... okay, so i agree with you and you don't need to reply to this post ........ i am sure masadi will be here soon to blame the rape of the fairies of koh-i-kaaf on the us elite and jayp will blame it on us poor pakis ........ so what else is new?

hamidm: discussing ancient books is like discussing philosophy while ..to put it gently..engaged in the act of procreation. There is a revolution going on in Pakistan. Here is Holbrooks now starting to say what I have been ranting about for years on chowk.

Richard Holbrooke (perhaps the most astute and realistic US diplomat and democrat) finally seems to be understanding what any true Pakistani (as opposed to those who spend their time berating fellow Pakistanis) knew all along!!

Hope in Pakistan
The Problems Are Real, but So Is the Progress
By Richard Holbrooke
Friday, March 21, 2008; Page A17

..the return of a vibrant democratic process ..They have formed a Pakistani version of a grand coalition...Since Musharraf's real power base was as military commander, when he "took off his uniform" last year, it turned out that his residual power as president was largely ceremonial..Another positive straw in the wind is the poor showing of the overtly religious parties in February's elections -- they got only 4 percent of the total vote. In the volatile tribal areas near the Afghan border, where the Taliban and al-Qaeda have had a sanctuary from NATO operations in Afghanistan, the Muslim parties were shut out..But Pakistan..is too big and its civil society -- with its deeply established political parties, its free press, its vibrant and very visible lawyers, its thousands of nongovernmental organizations, its huge business community, and its own moderate Muslim leaders -- too extensive to in fact become "the world's most dangerous nation."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0 3/20/AR2008032003016.html

Eklavya,

I don't find any contradictions in either Dastaan-e-Amir Hamza or Arabian nights from the basic teachings of Islam!

If these murtids aka ekcheema etc ever tried to look at the 'system' and how it operates over time, particularly in times of peace and in times of conflict, they would know better.

A complete translation by Frances Pritchett is available online at
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00litlinks/hamzah/index.html

Just curious, how many Indian non-muslims read this while growing up?

zee, cheema ji probably understands that! :)

I was just floored by the beauty and the brevity of the expression whose meaning we know so well: of ruling the world with the help of a single 'army of partners,' in which all vanquished and the defeated join the SAME army as soldier-partners.

This almost solves all problems of rebellion, desertion, abandonment, and lack of focus.

Zee, there is nothing remotely like this in Indic tradtions (may be some Hindu can correct me on that).

So, this does seem to be a purely Islamic imagination and piece of work (Christians might have something similar with their 'march of Christ's soldiers' idea. But then they don't have the Quran. The Bible seems nothing like the Quran.)

---------------------

Cheema ji #22, wow, again!

While the logic is simplicity itself, the details and manifestations and expressions are so many, so diverse, and so rich that in order to enjoy their beauty one would probably need 'a few lifetimes'! Will try to at least skim through some stuff. Many, many thanks. :)


-------------

khurram bhai, Indians have no real reason to read this stuff, unless they happen to be a crazy bunch like me. They have their own mirror image of literature. Even that, they don't mostly read (Chowk, though, has some very knowledgeable people.)

Re: # 28

tahmed,

.... you are really loosing it ........ what does holbrooke have to do with the prophet's uncle and the fairies of koh-i-kaaf .......... your obsession with mushy is getting just as bad as mad masadi's obsession with the us elite ....... are you saying that holbrooke thinks mushy is hamza's reincarnation - you will have to ask eklavya about this possibility ........

#32 Posted by Eklavya,

I see you noticed the guy with the biggest 'Gurz'in #17 who's defeated and joins Hamza's army ...

Is it really such a 'fairy tale'? LoL!

hamidm: i guess i was too circumpspect. Let me be blunt then:

Discussing ancient books (per this article) at a time when a real life Glorious Revolution is underway in Pakistan is like discussing cricket while engaged in sex.

Re: # 35

tahmed,

.... please wake me up when this 'glorious revolution' is complete and william and mary ascend the throne in islamabad ....... for now, i guess we have to make do with the archduke of multan, makhdoom yousaf raza gilani (ra) ....... the other archduke, makhdoom amin fahim of sindh, is not a happy camper and if he could get the duke of karachi to back him him he might try and raise an army to march on islamabad ....... but the duke of karachi, altaph bhai who is in exile in london, has thrown his support behind the king of dubai, asif zardari ..... it also seems that le dauphin bilawal, has made his way from oxford to islamabad to do show support for king asif ........ with all of this, it seems that the present monarch is not in any real danger unless the king's party and the army turns on him ....... the navy is still busy with clearing the rubble in lahore .......

Re: # 32; Eklavya
Thanks. I am not sure where the inspiration from Koran came from and how you managed to make the connection; I suppose that is what fairytales can do to you! I reckon the similarity with the Koran ends there perhaps!

Don't think too high of Pakis and too low of your Indian friends; there is very little between them in fact. Some of the Hindu creation myths are fascinating but I haven't had a chance to read the mythology in detail. Some books that might fascinate you too that I'd recommend them strongly are by Karen Armstrong, "The History of God" and "the Battle for God".

Like I said, if Islam (Arabian Nights) allows "high-breasted virgins" to have almost pornographic displays of passion with "black slaves" in peace time, bring it on!! Might make a refereshing change. Just to clarify, the virgins were ALL from "shurafa families including Royalty" in case of the arabian nights; perhaps refuting Zeemax's theory of ONLY the "murtid" women "prostituting" themselves!! May be he can clarify.....

Re: No: 32: Eklavya bhai,

Also, I forgot to mention that the same part of the world where a lot of these tales seem to emenate, there are a lot of mythological characters etc based on Mohammed himself; even now you can find pictures, with full facial features, of Mohammed, Ali and the rest of the clan displayed and sold in bazaars in Iran. These were all originally created in the middle ages as well; perhaps that correlates well with Zeemax's current version of Islam as well! "Walla-hu-aalam..."!

The Arabian Nights starts with Schehrzaad, the newly wed bride (also the daughter of the prime minister) of the King/Amir, telling him a story a night to prolong her life. The King was fed up with his ex(previously executed!)-wives infedility, and basically has a virgin a night and then has her killed in the morning, til he ran out of eligible women in his kingdom; so the prime minister's daughter (Shehrzaad) was the next "choice".

I am glad Zeemax has already made it clear that he finds NO CONTRADICTION between the above and the stated collection of tales!

Re: # 38

Apologies: the last line should read

"Zeemax has made it clear that there is NO CONTRADICTION between the above-mentioned tales and the Koran/Islam!

hamidm #36 gillani refused the "rising sun" offer to leave PPP and join the lotas in parliament despite the standard bullying of musharraf. while you and i were wasting time on chowk, he was put in jail for refusing to "cooperate" in musharraf's illegal rule. the things he was charged with would be funny if this was a theater and not real life - too much use of the telephone and cars while speaker of the house, giving jobs to 250 people in the government!!. Even these charges were subsequently thrown out of court. and he is a product of st. mary's in multan. so he cant be all bad.

btw - i see that tribal leaders in fata have joined together to declare the taliban non-muslim. maybe you should hold the nukes you were proposing for people of fata.

Akcheema,
I do not have an indepth knowledge of early islamic history,i will appreciate if you or someone else can shed some light on the incidence of Ayesha disappearing with some habshi.Was it just a rumour?

Re: # 41; treetop: Shame on you for asking me to do the dirty work FOR you! How dare you attempt to cast doudt on the chastity of our favourite "Umm-ul-momineen"! Shame on you again; you will burn in eternal hell!

Here are a few excerpts (Islamic references are from the Quran or Tabai/Ibn-Ishaq that I am going through on Zeemax bhai's learned recommendation. Before we say any more, what is your take on a young, perhaps attractive, adolescent girl, her fantacies and desires, when she is lumbered with a 50 odd year old man who, in all probability can't even get it going!, would have done at any time in history. Here we go:

[Islam's founder routinely made up Qur'an scripture to suit his agenda. However, there was a glimmer of light in this story. Aisha knew better. That's why she condemned Muhammad the moment he revealed the 24th surah, a "divine" revelation inspired by infidelity. It's called "The Criterion." Qur'an 24:1 "(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." For Muhammad to avoid having the lash applied to him, he had to have his god condone polygamy (which is adultery in all sane religions and societies), as well as pedophilia (which is what is being approved here), incest (approved earlier in the 33rd surah), unwed sex with concubines (which is fornication) and sex with slaves (which is rape).

That said, it was time for a situational scripture. Muhammad's plaything had been accused of adultery, but in order that her services might continue to arouse him, this Qur'anic surah was conveniently revealed. Qur'an 24:4 "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors." Aisha had but three accusers. How fortuitous.

Now that the witnesses have been punished and the perpetrators exonerated, Muhammad put Muslim women in their place - in submission to men. Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth. And the fifth (oath) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie." That pretty much sums up the plight of Islamic women. If their husbands say that they are bad four times, they are as good as dead. Men don't need evidence.

Returning to Muhammad's predicament, we find another series of verses that are senseless without the context of the Hadith. And within their context, they are petty and vengeful, focused on the desires of the Qur'an's author. The sheer volume of these verses should tell you all you need to know about his priorities. Qur'an 24:11 "Those who brought forward the lie are a body among you: but think it not an evil to you; on the contrary, it is good for you: to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin he earned, and for him who took the lead in the slander, his will be an awful doom. Why did not the believers, when you heard of the affair, put the best construction on it in their minds and say, 'This is an obvious lie?' Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? Since they produce not witnesses, they are liars in the sight of Allah. Were it not for His mercy a grievous penalty would have seized you in that you rushed glibly into this affair. You received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which you had no knowledge; and you thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah, a grave offense. And why did you not, when you heard it, say? 'It is not right of us to speak of this: this is a most serious slander, an awful calumny!' Allah does admonish you, that you may never repeat such, if you are Believers. And Allah makes clear the communications. Allah is the Knower, Wise. Those who love scandal to be broadcast among the Believers will have a painful punishment in this life and the hereafter."

How is it possible that a book allegedly written before the world began could focus so intently on a child accused of fornication and yet say nothing about the indiscretion that prompted the infidelity? Aisha was upset because Muhammad purchased - with money he "earned" selling children into slavery - sex with an alluring slave. It's obvious Ibn Ishaq, the prophet's earliest and most trusted biographer, and Tabari, the first Islamic historian, were bothered too. And that's why they said: Ishaq:493 "According to a man I do not suspect, and others who contributed parts of the story, a report has been assembled for you based upon what people have told me in regards to the account of Aisha's story about herself, when the authors of the lie said about her what they said." In other words, the same sources who have brought us the Hadith and Qur'an were witnesses against Aisha and thus witnesses against Muhammad and the Qur'an].

The truth is perhaps only known to Miss Aisha herself, the Habshi in question or Allah Mian perhaps.....Wallahu Aalam....

Re: # 40

tahmed,

.... so you think this is the dawn of a new era ? ........ i suggest you should listen to cowasjee - he has been around longer than even you and he says, "yeh sala sub chore hai" .....i think the cranky old fool is senile and it is time to put him out of his misery, but he does make a good point here ..... the more things change the more they remain the same - stay tuned for the next episode in this continuing saga ...

The article is most interesting and enlightening. Generally speaking, we need to focus more on the future than the past.

It is unfortunate that we of the subcontinent have walked away from an important part of our common heritage which books like the Hamzanama represent.

(Note to self: must make sure to visit the Freeer-Sackler galleries at the next possible chance.)

#42 akcheema: i find your fascination with the private life of a man who lived in the 14th century AD to be awe-inspiring.

Guess what the gossip has been about Queen Nefertiti and her bro? And may i recomment your getting further jollies out of studing the life and times of Oedipius? And while you are at it, check out what Lucretia and her pop the pope were up to after the pope's working hours were over. And of course you could always visit india to see woman-dog weddings (reported in the press, I am not making this up), women flocking to worship the x-rated god.

You see - the rest of the world is not as civilized as those Aussies down under. Although I suspect the platypus is the result of an aussie farmer getting familiar with his duck..

#43 hamidm: one more time - it's the system, genius. not personalities.

i have been watching discussions on geo and aaj tv - and rest assured that pretty much everyone in pakistan (other than cowasjee and you and mush and his lotas) get it.

#45 that should be 7th century of course - not 14th.

they are showing march 23 military parade. with people finding fooditems and gasoline beyond their reach, this waste of gas on jets and vehicles for show is a disgrace. in the US, July 4 in DC has none of this expensive display of military hardware - only a parade with school bands and fireworks.

i hope the new government takes a hard look at wasteful military expenditures. only then will pakistan be truly free.

Re: # 45; tahmed Bhai

Like I said before, I have absolutely no problem with YOUR religion/belief system; whatever it may be, it can't be labelled mainstream Islam. I only hope there ARE others like you in the Muslim world.

Problem with your assertion with "my fascination" is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND IS ASKING ANYONE TO FOLLOW THESE GUYS AS ROLE MODELS; Islam's whole edifice is based on Mohammed, his Koran and Sunnah and it is followed blindly, without question, by the majority of his followers. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

No one in their right mind, nowadays, is blowing themselves up or killing someone else to protect the honour of their prophets but us muslims. So why should't we elaborate a bit on what we have been asked to follow blindly since birth?

I find your examples and the logic quite out of place here if I am allowed to say it. Besides, it was in reply to someone else's request and the parenthesis indicates, it is not my personal opinion but someone else's. You, or anyone else, is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

Amir Hamza's story, alongwith Umro Ayyar etc are part of OUR culture; I grew up with them same as anyone else from that background. Unfortunately, they have been presented here as a representation of "Islamic Culture". Like bjk said, why can't they be enjoyed by all without having to PROVE the connection with the Koran/Islamic tradition etc.

Please read my first few contributions on this board and tell me if you have further issues with it; I await your reply. Thanks.

I hope this Amir Hamza was as quick witted a chap as my friend Abu bhai!!!

Regards

doctor sahib #49: your point about the prophet being made a role model is well made. but note - no one harps on the fact that he had multiple wives, and certainly pakistanis are no more likely to have multiple wives than any other people. when he is set up to be a role model by ordinary pakistanis (the mainstream, if you will), it is with respect to universally accepted values like honesty, integrity etc. references are given to his final sermon where he spoke about respect for all religions.

so who harps on his multiple wives and other aspects of his private life? first, european priesthood of the middle ages(and that is where my example of lucretia borgia becomes relevant) who hated islam as causing schism among believers (the exact charge that Dante made against him in is not-so-Divine Inferno) and whose hypocrisy (high living, sex scandals) are too well known for me to mention. second, hindus obsessed with intimidating and demonizing minority religions within their country who have picked up on this theme and try to ape the west by repeating this ridicule of his private life, ignoring the primitive and sexually-laced customs in their own communities. So, my reference to the lingum worship was quite relevant. their hypocrisy is also too well known. third, it is muslims like yourself and hamidm, who (as you yourselves have indicated) both seem to have been raised in ultra-conservative families are so are revolting against it as adults.

this is not a particularly mature reaction, and you will simply be making your children feel insecure and feel bad about their heritage.. when in fact they should be celebrating both their pakistani heritage as well as the broader heritage of all humanity that every educated person has and which every pea-brained chauvinist (whether hindu or muslim) will never have.

my question to you is this: if you have no problem with my understanding of islam, why do you chose to sideline it? what do you think you are achieving with this?

Re: # 51; tahmed bhai

I didn't chose to sideline anything. It is all a result of rational analysis. It is always very difficult for one to explain the reason for being an atheist to a believer.

Just because I think you are a decent person, I don't have to subscribe to your beliefs.

My critique is more to do with making people think; who knows where skepticism can take us!

I feel I have a morally fulfilled and happy life and I simply donot need religion/god etc; all I want is others (especially from similar religio-cultural backgrounds) to enjoy the same freedom of thought as well. I have no personal axe to grind with this god person; for that one has to acknowledge their existence (that issue has been addressed elsewhere - may be you can run through my posts over the last month if you have the time).

My only child is well adjusted and I have already talked about her upbringing elsewhere, probably on Gill Sahib's Bulleh Shah board, so feel free to jog your memory.

The final sermon, incidently, doesn't talk about all this lovey dovey stuff you seem to be referring to; may be we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

It is well past my bedtime so I'd have to say Shab Bakhair to you. Talk to you soon, Insha-allah!

Re: # 51

tahmed, bewakoof!

"it is muslims like yourself and hamidm, who (as you yourselves have indicated) both seem to have been raised in ultra-conservative families are so are revolting against it as adults. "

..... how the hell did you figure that out ?..... that is slander and i have half a mind to sue you for slandering my father and mother (god bless their souls) ..... my father, in particular, must be turning in his grave! ... other than twice a year when, after a hectic search, he put on his karakul cap and headed off to the ghq ground to offer his eid prayers behind ayub khan, yahya khan and bhutto khan, the man left god and his prophet alone ...... he also liked his scotch and i suspect he made a decent second income playing bridge .... his most famous quote is, "anyone who does not have a vice is either an angel or a chutiya!" ......i think that he had people like you in mind when he made that comment ....... and my mother was a spiritual person, but hers was a benign form of islam that revolved around halwa, kheer, chahar shamba, shab-i-barat, zarda and mounting blackened handis on the roof or sacrificing black bakras to ward off evil spirits .....

..... i demand an apology for insulting the memory of my parents

#43 Posted by hamidm2,

cowasjee - he has been around longer than even you and he says, "yeh sala sub chore hai" ....

Sure. He's been around long enough to have been in zina-ul-fuck's cabinet as federal shipping minister.

This senile bugger is only pissed because no other government took him seriously ... ignored as a buffoon ... just as one hamidm2 of chowk.com.

hamidm: OK, i'll admit that i was too stressed with exams once to take advantage of an outstanding opportunity for committing vice that literally walked into my room. however, i am slandered by your innuendo that i am incapable of vice. in fact, the time i waste on chowk is proof is a vice!!

ok, so your illustrious father was not one of the ultraconservatives, nor did i mention him particularly. but you did mention once some relations like that more than one time.

coming to your mom - that is a different story. She is obviously an example of the Islam I am talking about. Is her understanding of Islam in any way less valid than that of a muslim version of jeremiah wright??!! In fact, she is exactly the way my elders were - kind and gentle people. So next time you get the urge to claim that islam drives people to become criminals, tht i am in fact not the mainstream, think of your mom and dad and how you are turning them into non-persons when you claim that only urstruly represents islam.

I rest my case.

Re: # 55

tahmed,

....... unfortunately, my parent's brand of islam is dead or dying and today's resurgent islam is correctly represented by people like urstruly and zeemax ...... when i was growing up wahabis were considered to be a small cult and people whispered about them - today it is the dominant strain of the islam virus ......

....... i still demand an apology

Re: # 54

zeemax,

.... i sincerely hope the senile old fool is wrong, but i am still a little sceptical that these leopards can change their spots .....

#53 Posted by hamidm2,

With due respect, did your revered mom (May Allah bless her) also throw saffron colour on you playing holi holi?

akcheema sahib: sleep well sir, and take good care of your patients tomorrow. i am not pushing any beliefs on you (how could i even if i wanted to?). but if you are going to jump onto the bandwagon of long-dead hypocrites in the vatican jeering the prophet's personal life, i have a right to put things in perspective. which is what i did in #51 and which i hope you will keep in mind next time you get the urge to jump on the bandwagon along with some head-shaking dot-wearing hi-b from madras.

hamidm: apologize for what? i didnt specify your parents, and as i said you did mention some ultra-conservative relatives as examples. if you tell me that in fact it is not their brand of islam that you criticize, then that is a change from what you wrote earlier.

if your parents version of islam is dying, you are certainly contributing to it by denying it the same legitimacy that you give to urstruly's brand.

#57 Posted by hamidm2,

As usual you're evading the main argument. How dare this senile old fool ridicule democratic institutions for misdeeds of the past while himself having hobnobbed in the past with people like zina-ul-fuck who flogged journalists - during this fool's tenure as an unelected federal minister - and hanged the elected prime minister?

That was the question.

akcheema ji, thanks for the ton of information you provided. You raised so many points that I must beg your indulgence in not addressing them all right now. Allow me to make only a couple of points, which we may, if they interst you at all, discuss over time.

1. By far, most importantly, I would re-iterate for the nth time (and hope you would give this serious consideration): Islam's ideal is NOT blind belief. One can easily rank order the preferred form of Islamic beliefs as follows:

(1) Considered, thoroughly questioned, belief wherein one discovers for one's private self SOME WY/ANY WAY to answer natural human questions to re-affirm faith in Islam. This is the much-celebrated "no-church" (knowledge-based) view.

(2) One follows a wali, a learned person, who has understood Islam, and one is therefore certain that one is on the right path by following such a person. This is the sufi (love-based) view.

(3) One really doesn't get into the specifics of Islam and considers all must be right, and focuses on matters of day-to-day living. This is probably the 'vast majority' (good-life or action-based) view.

(4) One gets caught up with black bakra charms and even blacker handi objects. Many knowledgeable Muslims will call that the superstititious and ignorant (kufr-based) view.

(5) Some people born in Islamic world, for whatever personal reasons, can't accept 1-4. But sooner or later they come to fully realize that all opposition is futile; and then they settle down to a life of private grumblings, smart-alec comments when they feel safe, and fake public smiles and pretense of adherences to Islam in view of friends and family. These people count for nothing, but if they achieve anything, immediately their achievements are celebrated as Islamic achievements.

1-5 are perfectly acceptable forms of Islam, and all those who follow them are ultimately 'good and acceptable' Muslims. However,

(6) Some, again for whatever reasons, are unable to stay even at level of Islamic belief, and begin to publicly oppose Islam itself (not other peoples' "interpretation" or understanding of Islam).

Islam cuts off these people's reproductory system.

----- This has gotten longer than I expected. Will address the rest of the points later, if you don't completely lose patience. Best regards.--------

-----------------

zee boss, only a fool and a Hindu will read all this as just pure fiction and bed-side entertainment.

Re: # 61

zeemax,

.... let's not go there ..... he is not talking about institutions, he is talking about people ..... and if you are talking about people who hobnobbed with zina-ul-fuck, let's not forget that both nawaz sharif and yousaf gilani belong in that category - both earned their wings under the abu bakr of pakistan ...... let's move on

hamid writes "....... unfortunately, my parent's brand of islam is dead or dying and today's resurgent islam is correctly represented by people like urstruly and zeemax ...... "

Last I read your dimwitted posts, your blanket condemnation of Islam went back in history much further than the 1950s and 1960s, you were taking your BS blanket condemnations all the way back to the time of the prophet, now when your parents are involved, you do a turnaround....reminds me of how Bush used the gassing of Halabja to justify attacking Saddam in 2003! ....keep it up hypocrite

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zeemax,

..... one more thing - if zia-ul-haq had a protege, it was nawaz sharif ......... if the first khalifa had lived probably would have handed over the khilafat to his handmaiden ....... but i am willing to give him the benfit of doubt hoping that he has learned a lesson from his past follies and attempt to get installed as amir-ul-momineen ....... compared to him cowasjee is just a low level collaborator ......

Re: # 65

sweet dreams, sweet prince - don't forget to look under your bed for the us elite and other demons .......

masadi #65 g'lost.

one more thing before I go, tahmed #68, who the F are you to tell me to get lost, does this site belong to your papa?.

By the way, my comments on the photo that tahmed posted here can be read at this site http://chowk.com/interacts/13775

Regarding the "temptation" that he (tahmed) claims walked into his room, that was probably a 300lb dishwasher named Helga! It was a matter of life or death and he passed it by so he could write more BS on chowk....

now g'night

g'night

Re: # 62

eklavya,

....you are a charlatan !.... you missed out the most important form of islmic faith which should have been number one :

1) One follows the faith blindly and fanatically - he is convinced that he is right, that islam is destined to be the dominant faith and that everyone else is wrong. He wages war in the name of al-lah and his prophet. This is the koran and sunnah based view and is shared by those who speak for islam today.

........ stop being cute - it is not becoming !

#62 Posted by Eklavya,

You never cease to amaze me. You, being a non-believer/non-Muslim know Islam so well, that I bow before you.

masadi: s'dreams.

#70 hamimdm: and what was your parents' understanding of islam on this question? and why are they mistaken in their understanding of islam?

... Sigh .... KaalChakra ... the quest continues:

#649 by kaalchakra on July 2, 2007 7:46am PT
Zee, don't feel bitter. It's not worth it, my friend :)

See, this is how, imho, consciousness evolves.

First, there is the stage of ignorance. Where an ignorant person believes that there is nothing "unique." Hindus, most of them, operate at this level.

Second comes the stage of stupidity. That's when one experiences the world a little, notices some facts, but militantly asserts that ignorance is what is good for him or her, NO MATTER WHAT. Almost all liberals operate at this level.

Third comes the stage of goodness. This is where a person knows differences but still feels committed to saving the world somehow. Since the world can not be saved, bitterness follows. This is zeemax' stage.

Finally one reaches the stage of kings and emperors. Here the objective is not to SAVE the world, but to RULE over it. Key requirements here are of equanimity and focus. That's were echodada operates. :)

he he, I got to run, but Zee, you are a dear friend and a Muslim. A Muslim bows before none but Allah. I so wish we had anything like that. :)

Catch you later. :)

hamdim2, that's there as well. LOL

#39 Posted by akcheema,

akcheema saheb,

May I request a final courtesy from you?

I promise to not call you a murtid anymore. In return you should spell Qur'an as 'Qura'an'. Not Koran.

Thanks and regards.

zeemax,

.... so you agree with my contention that nawaz sharif was a bigger collaborator than cowasjee ? ..... good! .. now we can move on

....... and how come you never asked me to spell koran the way you would like it spelled ? ........ i feel jilted - am i a smaller murtid-muslim than cheema-come-lately ? .... i have been waging jihad against you jihadis for years and this is the respect i get? .... or have i worn you guys down to the point that you are ready to give up on your bloody ways and follow the prophet(boy) tahmed in his quest for a kindler gentler islam ?

#75 Posted by Eklavya,

No ... a Muslim prostrates before no one but Allah. I acknowledge your insight and I bow to you, not prostrate.

Sovereignty of Allah is a difficult concept to grasp, in the context of governance and worldly affairs etc. I've been thinking of writing a post to ferozk re his #639 on Pavo's board, but he wouldn't understand, would he?

I will write that post in any case, because he brought up the question of how the west will never tolerate a Muslim system, which in his limited knowledge and insight he restricts that to just the criminal jurisprudence part of Sharia. All these educated and knowledgeable people are totally clueless.

The only difference is 'sovereignty of Allah', and nothing else. But that's a 'huge' difference. The west could happily co-exist with Muslims if only they would understand that. If they don't, there's nothing but conflict.

Re: # 78

zeemax,

.... are you trying to get away with your silly comment about cowasjee ?

.... and what is this sovereignty of the moon god if it is not sharia and all the barbarity that goes along with it ? ..... stop obfuscating .... the people of the world have been there with pharoahs, popes, prophets, messiahs, and other blood thirsty shamans and priests - we will not be misled and continue to spill blood at the altar of this or that god .....

... by the way, ekalvya is playing you for a fool but you are so eager for affirmation, specially from a hindoo, that you are lapping up his nonsense ...... i am sure you also wet your pants when you heard that michael jackson and mike tyson had reverted to islam !

ekalvya,

.... i just had a thought .... are you thinking of reverting to islam and then going on the masjid lecture circuit to make the big bucks ?........ muslims really lap up that kind of stuff, but you will have to get in line behind white men and women - a desi convert is not that much of a novelty .... i think you can make a lot more money if you follow in the footsteps of yogananda and maharishi - there is a bigger market for hindoo nonsense in places like california .....

Hamid,

Is there something like a born-again muslim? Maybe you should avail that opportunity.

#66 Posted by hamidm2,

While it's true Nawaz emerged on the scene during zina-ul-fuck's time, he was elected with sheer landslides numerous times afterwards including this time, despite having been in exile for 8 years and his party split, and being allowed back just a 'single' day before final nominations date. If his survival was dependant on anyone else other than the people of Pakistan (military dictatorships), he would now be another Ch. Shujaat.

How many elections has that hero of yours kawasjee won?

Re: # 76
When he habitually spells Muslim using lower-case 'm' (for which I corrected him!), why do you think he spells Qur'an as Koran?

Re: # 81

bubba,

.... i have actually thought about it, but since you can play this card only once i am saving it for when i am on the jihadi's death row waiting for an open guillotine ....

#77 Posted by hamidm2,

....... and how come you never asked me to spell koran the way you would like it spelled ? ........ i feel jilted - am i a smaller murtid-muslim than cheema-come-lately ?

I'll give an honest answer to this.

Hamidm, you never forgot your Burqa wearing grand mom, or your mom, or your father, and you revere them.

If you ever have a chance, read the little signs pointing the streets in Gulshan-e-Iqbal and what is written underneath them.

In the meantime, you may have your fun :)

Re: # 82

zeemax,

.... are you comparing cowasjee to nawaz sharif? .... cowasjee is not a politician and i don't think he has ever run for any office ..... he is just a cranky old man with a lot of money who is always complaining about something or the other .... agree with him or not, he speaks his mind ...... that his why bhutto threw him in jail ......and he has done quite a bit of good with the cowasjee foundation, tcf and his crusade against corruption .....

actually, i cannot stand to read his rambling 'columns' which are all over the place ...... he does make a good case for euthanasia .......

Re: # 85

zeemax,

.... so ancestor worship is okay with you?

.... since you are being so nice, i will let you in on a little secret if you promise not to laugh ...... i actually believe that when you die you will meet up with your mother and father and other ancestors - it has something to do with the source of energy and the theory of relativity which is too convoluted to explain ..... a simpler explanation: have you seen the film 'contact'? ..... when i saw that movie, i jumped up and said, 'that's it! that is what i believe in' ......and trust me, jodie foster had nothing to do with it even though she gives me arrhythmia .....

#83 Posted by tahir,

Yes I noticed your intervention.

These people, I don't know what to call them, have no basic 'respect' and they're supposed to be liberals.

#86 Posted by hamidm2,

Why did this cowasjee join zina-ul-fuck's federal cabinet? You still haven't answered this.

#87 Posted by hamidm2,

No, you won't meet your ancestors. That's only in the movie you saw. You'll meet something else, and that's 'eternity' with 'God' somewhere around, but you still won't find Him.

That's my little secret I just let you in.

(P.S. You can meet your ancestors though, but you don't have to die for that ... and that's a secret I'm not going to let you in)

Re: # 89

zeemax,

.... i don't know - he also joined bhutto's cabinet who then threw him in jail ..... i guess he joined zia for the same reason as nawaz sharif, yousaf gilani and many others - power, wealth, fame .... the usual reasons ....... what's the difference ?

#91 Posted by hamidm2,

He joined Bhutto's cabinet? When?

... I mean cowasjee ... when was he in ZAB's cabinet?

zeemax,

... he was the miister of tourism - the man is somewhat of a gadfly but he hasen't spared anyone including bhutto, zia, benazir or musharraf ......

http://micropakistan.org/blog/2008/02/15/article-on-cowasjee-pakistan- columnist-doesnt-know-the-meaning-of-fear-la-times/

hamidm: when your ancestors meet you, they'll ask you why you gave their islam a pass and proclaimed urstruly to be the righteously guided one..

#94 Posted by hamidm2,

So from all your googling, that's what you could come up with. LA Times as quoted by some micropakistan.org/blog.

In 1976, while serving as tourism chief, he was jailed for 72 days by Benazir Bhutto’s father, Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto

Bhai, cowasjee was never in the federal cabinet of ZAB. He may have been some gofer in some Tourism Development Authority or something. Raja Tridev Roy was ZAB's Tourism Federal Minister.

But, he sure as hell was the Federal Minister for Shipping in zina-ul-fuck's cabinet.

Now google that for confirmation.

the one time i saw cowasjee, he was supposed to talk profoundly while we ate sandwiches. instead he started complaining of chest pains and i had my sandwich without any intellectual serenade in the background.

hamidm: hate to break this to you - but you are not meeting any ancestors either. islam is not about afterlife social get togethers or afterlife partying. so dont expect there to be miller time. i know this sounds grim, but life is grim when you are a small bubble in an endless ocean.

on the bright side, you wont get reprimended by your ancestors for selling out their religion to urstruly.

to clarify #98 you wont get reprimanded because you wont be meeting ancestors, not because you should not be reprimanded for selling out on their peaceful view of islam..

tahmed32,

Urstruly is the most talented writer of short fiction on Chowk. There's no doubt about that. Religion has never figured in any of his short stories.

And you try to label him? It's disgusting to say the least.

What contribution do you have on Chowk other than 10,000 plus posts pushing your deen-e-akbari and supporting Israel and one article about how wonderful it was to invade Iraq?

I suggest you read Urstruly, and tell me his calibre as a writer, forget about his religious views. That's why he stopped writing, because of this bigotry.

zeemax #100 urstruly has not made any secret of his view that religion is not a choice and that his sympathies are with mullahs. thus - when the suicide bombing took place in lahore, all i saw from him was talk about how the first bombing was ok because it was targetted against pakistan government.

i dont claim to be an intellectual, so it doesnt matter if he has written not just chowk articles but best sellers.

zeemax: but i'll agree that it is not correct to accuse someone of something behind his back. So, replace "urstruly's brand of islam" with "zeemax's brand of islam" - the one where you applaud the fata mullahs. and correct me if i am wrong here.

in any case, the distinction between the peaceful live-and-let-live version of islam of hamidm's parents vs the oppressive version that i made below is still valid.

Re: # 96

zeemax,

okay, you are right - i misread and he wasn't a minister ..... according to wikipedia :"Ardeshir was appointed by Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto as Managing Director of Pakistan Tourism Development Corporation (PTDC) in 1973 but was jailed for 72 days in 1976 by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for which no explanation has been given to date"

......... so what is the difference ? ....the fact remains that the man has been an outspoken critic of everyone including zia, bhutto and musharraf even though he seems to have a personal vendetta against the bhuttos ...... but it still puts him, nawaz sharif and many others in the same boat as far as zia is concerned ......

.... but i really don't get the point of this discussion ... what are you trying to prove ?

Re: # 100

zeemax,

... urstruly is the epitome of an asshole - the man was right here in michigan and for years i kept on inviting him to meet and discuss this over a couple of shirley temples and whiskies, but he declined .... i wonder why?

.... he ranted and raved against america while living on government handouts and then finally took off to take up residence somewhere in a cave along the pak-afghan border ..... unlike you - who is suffering from the common strain of type-II islam brought on by the onset of old age - the man is a born jihadi ........ you are just trying to save your keester from hell fire like the other type-II patients .....

#104 Posted by hamidm2:

"and then finally took off to take up residence somewhere in a cave along the pak-afghan border"

When??!! Is this true?