The Vicious Circle of Violence

Murad A Baig March 19, 2008

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#123 Posted by nkg on March 25, 2008 6:39:38 pm

Re: # 119
He conquered all this territory by sacrificing less than 150 (145 to be precise) Muslims in 10 years. This can only happen when one is set out to conquer hearts and minds and not the bodies.

Ans: You don't need to conquer hearts through war. Buddha was king. His method spread from Mongolia to Malayasia without anybloodshed.
The casualty figure has no historic sanction.

BTW Medina Pact is the first ever written constitution in the history of mankind.

Ans: Absolute lie...

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#122 Posted by teshah on March 25, 2008 4:45:44 pm

Re: # 97

But the Arab culture did not allow it either. It was only Allah's doing to facilitate the prophet.

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#121 Posted by arjun_5 on March 25, 2008 12:44:30 pm

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#120 Posted by Urstruly on March 25, 2008 10:08:29 am

THE LEGACY OF A GENERAL (pbuh)

There is no other person in the history of mankind whose life has been scrutinized more than the life Holy Prophet (pbuh); scrutinized equally by his friends and foes. There is no other person in the history of mankind whose life is as open book as that of the Prophet. Every action that he took, every word that he spoke has been recorded and reaches us via more than 6 hundred thousand narrations and traditions.

During his life time Holy Prophet acted also as a general who conquered an area of one million square miles in 10 years; that is an area equal to the Europe West of Russia. He conquered all this territory by sacrificing less than 150 (145 to be precise) Muslims in 10 years. This can only happen when one is set out to conquer hearts and minds and not the bodies.

There are two types of military expeditions that took place during his life time which are termed as Ghazwat and Saraya . By definition Ghazwat are those military expeditions in which he himself took part; Saraya on the other hand are those expeditions which he sent under the command of his companions. In his life time he fought 22 Ghazwat and 37 Saraya. Most of the Ghazwat and Saraya ended up without a single loss of life because most of these expeditions were just policing and enforcing the Medina Pact which he made with the tribes of Medina and surrounding areas. BTW Medina Pact is the first ever written constitution in the history of mankind.

A complete list of Ghazwat and Saraya is given below with the number of casualties listed. The loss on the side of enemies is also negligible given the barbaric nature of early Arabian society. The execution of 700 Jews after the battle of trench may not be considered as casualties of war, since that was actually an act of treason and breaking of Medina pact that resulted in their execution. But even if it is considered an act of war the number of enemy casualties still is less than 1000 approx., which makes it 120 casualties per year. There is only one man who was killed by him in a war. Similarly, the 14 people killed (which your sources say as 30) during the conquest of Mecca were not casualties of war, instead they were killed because the next of kin of their victims refused to forgive them. So it was a judicial execution and not an act of war.

A detailed history of these military expeditions can be seen at the following website, and can be verified through million others:

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/

And BTW Muslims are open to inquiry if it is done without malicious intent. There are no taboos in Islam.

GHAZWAT

Year 2 A.H (2 years after migration)

1: Ghazwat abwa also called Ghazwah Dawaan
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

2: Ghazwah Badr Kubra
Muslim Casualties: 14
Enemy: 70

3: Ghzawah Banu Qainuqa
Muslim Casualties: 1
Enemy: 1

4: Ghazwah Saweeq.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 3 A.H: Three Ghazwaar took place:

5: Ghazwah Gharfaan
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

6: Ghazwah Uhud
Muslim Casualties: 70
Enemy: 23

7: Ghazwah Hamrâ' Al-Asad
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 1

Year 4 A.H Two Ghazwaat were faced:

8: Ghazwah Banu Nudair
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

9: Ghazwah Badr-e-Sughara.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 5 A.H Four Ghazwaat were faced:

10: Ghazwah Zatur-Raqa'
Muslim Casualties: No info
Enemy: No info

11: Ghazwah Doomatul-Jandal
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy:0

12: Ghazwah maresi, also known as Ghazwah Bani-ul-Mustaliq
Muslim Casualties: 1
Enemy: fewer than 10

13: Ghazwah Khandaq (Ditch), the more important and famous one.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 700* (see note above)

Year 6 A.H Three Ghazwaat occurred:

14: Ghazwah Bani Al-Hayaan
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

15: Ghazwah Ghabah also known as Ghazwah Zi-Qarah
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

16: Ghazwah Hudaibiyah.
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 7 A.H One Ghazwah in this year:

17.Ghazwah Khaibar.
Muslim Casualties: 18
Enemy: 93

Year 8 A.H Four Ghazwaat happened during this year:

18: Conquest of Mecca
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 15

19: Ghazwah Hunain
Muslim Casualties: 4
Enemy: 70

20: Ghazwah Ta'if
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

Year 9 A.H Only one Ghazwah in this year:

22 Ghazwah Tabuk
Muslim Casualties: 0
Enemy: 0

SARAYA

1: Saryah Hamzah
2: Sarayah Ubaidah.
3: Saryah Zaid bin Muslim
4: Saryah Zaid bin HarithFour Saryah
5: Saryah Abu salmah
6: Saryah Abdullah bin Anees
7: Saryah Munzar
8: Saryah Murthad.
9: Saryah Muhammad bin Muslimah toward Qartaa
10: Saryah Akkashah
11: Saryah Muhammad bin Muslimah towaed Zil Qasd
12: Saryah Zaid bin Harithah toward Bani Saleem
13: Saryah Abdur-Rahman bin Auf 6: Saryah Ali
14: Saryah Zaid bin Harith toward Umme Qarfa
15: Saryah Abdullah bin Ateek
16: saryah Abdullah bin Rawaha
17: Saryah Karz bin Jabir
18: Saryah Amr Ad-Damri.
19: Saryah Ghalib Toward Bani Al-Maluh
20: Saryah Ghalib toward Fidak
21: Saryah Shujah
22: Saryah Ka'b
23: Saryah Amr bin Aas
24: Saryah Abu Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah
25: Saryah Abu Qatadah
26: Khalid, also know as Ghameesa
27: Saryah Tufail bin Amr Dusi
28: Saryah Qutaba.
29: Saryah Alqamah
30: Saryah Ali
31: Saryah Akkashah.
32: Saryah Khalid bin Waleed toward Najran and
33: Saryah Ali toward Yamen.
34: Saryah Abu Bakr
35: Saryah Bashr bin Sa'd
36: Saryah Ghalib bin Abdullah
37: Saryah Ajzam. Saryah under the command of Usama. which set out after Prophet’s demise.

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#119 Posted by Urstruly on March 25, 2008 10:08:16 am

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#118 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on March 25, 2008 10:06:16 am

Pmishra #115 {"#115 Posted by pmishra2 on March 25, 2008 8:28:22 am
salim-bhai please do not say stupid and senseless things like -

[quote]
The idol worshippers of Mecca were so overcome by the peaceful and bloodless conquest in 630 AD that they accepted Islam"}

Mishra Sahib,
My stupidity and senselessness have nothing to do with the accuracy of my statement. Indeed, the conquest of Mecca in 630 was bloodless. There have been several others in history.

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#117 Posted by zeemax on March 25, 2008 9:52:16 am

Yaar bhayo bhartis, leave Islam alone. If you do that, it won't bother you at all. Chalo, koi aur baat karo.

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#116 Posted by Urstruly on March 25, 2008 9:24:30 am

Re: # 115

That is in fact true.After the bloodless conquest of Mecca, the Meccans and all Arabs in surrounding areas were given three choices:

1. Accept Islam as their religion and become brothers in equal.

2. Keep adhering to their religion but accept political dominance of Islam or migrate outside of Muslim influence.

3. Take up sword and fight it out.

These three choices are listed in Qura'n and Holy Prophet (pbuh) is urged to follow them thru.

There was a large mix of people who picked up choices #1 & #2 and there was reason for that. A few years earlier a treaty was signed between Meccans and Holy Prophet (pbuh), which is called Treaty of Hudaibiya. Under this treaty it was agreed that any Muslim who would enter Mecca would be taken prisoner and would not be returned, however, any Meccan in Medina would have safe passage back to Mecca. Intitially, this clause was considered very humiliating by the Muslims but there was wisdom in that decision. A large number of Muslims who were later detained by Meccans remained in Mecca and kept preaching. So years later when Muslims surrounded the Mecca, the hearts and minds have already been softened and there was absolutely no resistance. However, about 30 Meccans were later executed because they were accused of murder and the relatives of their victims refused to take Blood Money (Qisas). Those were judicial excutions and none was political.

A significant number of non-Muslims chose to leave the land, among which were Jews who migrated towards Iraq, because elsewhere they were banned by the Roman Empire. Some pagans migrated towards Persia.

No one chose option # 3

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#115 Posted by pmishra2 on March 25, 2008 8:28:22 am

salim-bhai please do not say stupid and senseless things like -

[quote]
The idol worshippers of Mecca were so overcome by the peaceful and bloodless conquest in 630 AD that they accepted Islam
[\quote]

Its this kind of stupid propaganda that has given muslims a bad name. No one changes their fundamental culture without a struggle and we have a lot of evidence of struggle and violence in this change...

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#114 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on March 25, 2008 8:00:15 am

#88 Posted by friend on March 24, 2008 5:07:58 pm
Salim Chauhan sahib #various

{"Sir you don't have to direct our attention to violence against muslims. This article's basic premise is that while Christians didn't honor their treaties, and killed muslims, muslims were in general verrrry peaceful and considerate of their minorities. Given this peaceful nature of muslims, what happened to idol worshippers who used to reside in Mecca, why fire-worshippers Parsi had to run to India, and why Bahai are persecuted in Iran? What is happening to Afgani minorities? and why Saudi Arabia still can not tolerate any idols?"}

Dear Friend,
I am pleased to note some good questions posed in one's own words from a thoughtful interactor. This is a delightful contrast to the rampant cut & paste rhetoric expressing the canned BPJ/RSS/VHP/BD/sS/JS/SP/MNS nonsense.

Your point about honoring treaties is a very good one. Being very observant of the written word, Muslims, at the time of the Crusades, were usually quite faithful in honoring their treaties. OTOH, the Crusaders were notorious for violating commitments when it suited them to do so - Richard the Lion-hearted with his cruel executions of POWs in Acre and the Knights Templar attacking the caravan that led to the demise of Jerusalem are in sharp contrast to the leniency of Saladin at the recapture of Jerusalem in 1187.

The idol worshippers of Mecca were so overcome by the peaceful and bloodless conquest in 630 AD that they accepted Islam. Of course many of their close relatives had already become Muslim by that time.

The Parsis abandoned Iran because of the Arab conquest. The same people who conquered Iran in the mid 7th century are the ones who conquered Syria, Palestine, and Egypt - all with huge Christian populations that were the majority well into the time of the Crusades. Even after the horrific Crusades and the defeat of the invading Christians, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine continued to have significant (15 - 25%) Christian populations.

Why Saudi Arabia cannot tolerate any idols is something that the extremist Wahabbis have to address. Islam forbids idolatry as the most serious of sins - as does Christianity and Judaism (read the full 1st Commandment), and thus an irrational and extremist interpretation would be that all idols are wrong. The Iconoclasts of the early Christian period destroyed and disfigured many of the beautiful sculptures of the Greek & Roman periods. In my opinon, and that of most Muslims in the world, statues, pictures, movies, are fine as long as we Muslims don't worship them. I have no problem with a Hindu worshipping a statue, a bird, a monkey, a snake, or a tree - to each his/her own. peace.

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#113 Posted by guru on March 25, 2008 7:25:46 am

Re: # 112

UN should ban all the religions which asks converts to disown their allegiance tot he land, languange, scripts, last nameas and forces to take alien cultural names (Arabic in case of Islam and Biblical in case of Xtian) before it is too late. It should promote spirituality which is independent of language, race, culture or nationality.

If you consider at present 25% of world population is Muslim, then by the following little paranoiac conclusions it is already too late to make such a progressive change.

Curtsy Gandharva @ http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=471541#471541

The Progress of Islam in a Society (from 1% to 100%)
http://www.libertynewsforum.com/libertynewsforumcgi/news/YaBB.pl?num=1206 397175/3145

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

"Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, "The Haj"

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat.. http://www.frontline.org.za/books_videos/sti.htm146

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#112 Posted by pmishra2 on March 25, 2008 7:02:20 am

more islamic multi-culturalism..
------------------------------------
In this spirit, Saudi Arabia's Consultative Council (Arabic: Majlis ash-Shura) considered a resolution calling on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to "work in coordination with Arab and Islamic groups and others at the United Nations to draft an international pact for respecting religions, their symbols and leaders, and prohibit insulting them in any way." The council member who introduced the resolution, Mohammad Al Quwaihes, did so in direct reaction to the cartoons: "The provocation to move the resolution was the continuous onslaught on Islam in general and the Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) in particular, say for example, the blasphemous cartoons and films being published in Denmark, the Netherlands, America and the like."

Ah, but there's a problem with this "mutual respect of religions" idea, one which led the council overwhelmingly to vote down the resolution, 77-33. Critics pointed out that such a pact would recognize polytheistic religions, and that "would be unacceptable." One opponent, Khaleel Al Khaleel, explained his vote against on the grounds that it would create a dangerous precedent for Muslims. "Some consider Buddhism, Qadianism and Baha'ism as religions. Can we make it obligatory for Muslims to respect these faiths and avoid criticising them?" Another member, Talal Bakri, noted that "if we approve the resolution it will be make it obligatory to recognise some religions and will facilitate establishing places of worship for them in Muslim countries."

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#111 Posted by guru on March 25, 2008 6:42:34 am

I forgot to add. Thakre was the only deterrent to Dawood and gang when most of the other politicians were either on his payroll or were scared. Shivsena saved Mumbai in 92-93.

Mayawati IAS material, is going to be real man who will lead India a decade from now. Shivsena will work closely with her rather than BJP. Ideally they all should come together and reach out to Muslims, which Shivsena and Mayawati are doing. Muslims should understand that Thakre/mayawati are well meaning compared to the psydoes in Congress.

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#110 Posted by vengatramanan on March 25, 2008 6:30:01 am

Re: # 109

Guru,

I fully agree Shri Balasaheb Thackeray has a good side to him. Now do you agree that he has a bigger bad side?

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#109 Posted by guru on March 25, 2008 6:03:28 am

Who is Thakare?

They come from principality Bhor. They were keeper of a fourt in Bhor. British attacked in 1820s ... though fought gallantly ... outnumbered and outgunned ... had to flee.

Balasaheb's father Prabhodhankar Thakre thought did not attend college was fairly good writer and so ran a weekly for emancipation of women (hindu) and removing casticism and superstitious belief among Hindus. More socialistic/marxist. Little driven and non-compromising. So family suffered.

Balasaheb was good at drawing and painting. Did not do well in school. but became one of the foremost cartoonist. did not go to college. worked in socialist paper free press journal. accidentally took the mantle of Marathi common man's cause when he saw nepotism in employment by south Indians. straight forward. Non corrupt personally. Not at all womanizer or alcoholic. Was deeply attached to his wife because he married early and his own mother died early. his wife was mother to his younger siblings. Lost interest in life when his eldest son died in accident and his wife because they misplaced the bottle of medicine which kept her blood pressure/heart ailment low. Father to his daughter-in-law and supported her in producing good Marathi and Hindi movies. A risk taker. Fulfills his promise. But limited in vision and exposure to world events or trends. Not good with money like Pawars.

Don't go only by what is written in the news papers. They are not even good as toilet paper. I met only once to open an ITI/deploma college when I had just completed B Tech and he was more concerned with keeping existing jobs of people. Those were the days when close to 400K workers were going to be jobless because of textile mills closing.

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#108 Posted by vengatramanan on March 25, 2008 5:49:44 am

"Which heaven? Which provides 72 Arab virgins? "

You should have known when I told Maju anna, "No touching" ...LOL

Yes "Mauna Ragam" is good. Maniratnam's movie...What else you can expect from a genius like him... Hindi was compulsory till my 9th standard and I managed to pass a few Hindi exams. My teachers, in Tamilnadu, were so strict, we were terrified to make mistakes. Sadly, the fear alienated me from Hindi...

It kills me whenever I see lovely Hindi girls and my misfortune of not knowing Hindi. With whatever Hindi I know, I try to manage;).

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