An Agenda for the New Government

The expectations of the people, for this government to solve their problems, is the reason why this government will have a difficult time succeeding.

Expections will always exceed results and the pace of the results will never equal the rising expectations of the people.

This government will be stepping into a strange cocktail of expectations and disappointments and though the people are looking to it and to the future it holds for the nation, with a sense of expectation; they are mindful of the past broken promises of the past governments.

The threshold of a failure is very low in Pakistan and the failure of this government, should it go the manner of so many other governments in the past, will be tragic for Pakistan in more ways than one.

Ciao

#1 ferozk: you are too pessimistic. Sure there are problems. But the basics are solid - with a vibrant, well-educated civil society (not half-brained islamist ideologues or the over-clever mush and the lowlife who jumped onto his bandwagon).

This national character has been developed on the school of hard knocks (military dictatorships, each worse than the last). And character is destiny. There are definitely better days ahead for Pakistan, now that the self-obsessed scoundrel has been effectively put in his place.

Do you really think that this time it is going to be different. With same robbers running the country, the time is not too far when people will start screaming to bring the Army back in power.

Stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.

re: tahmed32 # 2

The past historic experience of governance in Pakistan does not support an optimistic asssessment of the sitution in Pakistan or this government's ability to resolve the issues confronting Pakistan.

Too much optimism is a certain recipe for disappointment and it would be better to wait and see, how this government performs and what it accomplishes before singing its praises. There is a difference between being elected to power and ruling a nation and so far, this government has not ruled Pakistan or proven itself in that regard. Therefore, only time will tell how well or miserably this goverment performs.

As to the civil society, it would be the first one to cheer the military back into power.

Do not forget the images of the civil society distributing sweets after the coup of 1999 in the streets of Pakistan.

Sirji, nothing has changed at all. Let there be elections in 2013 and let this government accomplish tangible results and let it visibly improve the lot of the average person in Pakistan and then, and only then, we can say there will be "...better days ahead of Pakistan...".

Ciao

Re: # 4

ferozk,

"As to the civil society, it would be the first one to cheer the military back into power" ....... and this time they will be led by tahmed instead of romair ......

..... let's see how this government conducts itself in the first 100 days - if the alliance lasts that will be a good sign ..... if not, i am afraid we will be back to the same old bickering .... personally, i don't have any faith in this or any government solving the electricity crisis in the near future and will therefore put off my visit till october - had enough of sleeping in the car last summer ......

#3 afsand: I suggest we agree to disagree which one between the two of us is heing stupid. :-)

#4 ferozk: no doubt there are serious economic and environmental issues facing pakistan. and no doubt it will take a few generations before all pakistanis meet the Hamidm standard of being "non-unwashed".

However, to face such problems you need political capacity. The Pakistani nation has demonstrated in 2007 a political capacity and maturity of the highest order - judges refusing to kow-tow to a dictator, a vibrant press, a sound foundation of political parties that, far from being destroyed despite almost a decade of vile efforts by Musharraf have in fact demonstrated by their maturity that "that which does not destroy me makes me stronger". Politicians have learned the hard way the importance of treating the Constitution as a sacred document; the sacrifices made by the Chief Justice to protect the basic rights of Pakistanis have educated millions of Pakistanis on the significance of issues related to basic rights; the Pakistani press has emerged as a vibrant and mature "watchdog of democracy".

Above all, Pakistanis have gained the confidence that they are not mere pawns in some grand scheme involving "conspiracies". Rather, they can in fact take control of their destiny by the wisdom to distinguish between right and wrong and the courage to take a stand.

So, it is this demonstration of political capacity to face our undoubtedly serious problem that I am applauding.

Re: # 2

tahmed32

One should applaud your exuberance and optimism, at the same time you need to understand, appreciate, practice and respect the basics of democracy to promote democracy.

{But the basics are solid - with a vibrant, well-educated civil society (not half-brained islamist ideologues or the over-clever mush and the lowlife who jumped onto his bandwagon).}

These half brained Islamist ideologues, over clever Mush ie establishment and the "low-life" are ALL citizens of Pakistan. Its about time people of Pakistan understood the basic principle of democracy, equal vote, freedom of expression, tolerance and diversity of opinions.

When people condemn the "other" as low life and what else they too are following the same path of authoritarian structure which they hate, despise and oppose.

Indeed a utopian wish list of an amatuer that not only found a place in News but also chowk. The author has no idea what turns and meanders lie in the corridors of power.

CABINET AND TRAIN TRAVEL
Every coalition party has to be accomadated. He expects ministers and their civil servants travelling on the lethargic train system in an age when it is not even possible to switch off the vcell phones even in toilets.

BE WARY OF BUREACRATS AND STREGNTEN THE JUDICIARY
The biggest danger of CHUSSING as we called it in old days is that the one being flattered never knows when he fell victim to the deadly virus. Qaseeda Gos do it with a flair.

Forget Kalabagh and concentrate on smaller dams.
Un fortunately, none of the small dams can irrigate the indus plains/desert.

INFLATION and POVERTY
It has as much to do with the consumerism of plastic money and desire to devalue the ruppee to raise exports. It is also created due to hedging policies of State Bank in cooperation with currency dealers.

Restart the tax survey that was abandoned seven years back.
A survey that killed the irregular and informal sector based on production to importers of cheap containers. Do you know how much was lost?

I would only say:
Set immediate, mid and long term goals in the energy and production sectors particularly in terms of shortages and tarrifs.

Reduce cost inputs on exports through subsidies, to make exports more competetive.

Relax taxation on machinary used for value addition of textile goods. Discourage export of raws.

Widen the tax base through correct application of VAT or what we call Sales Tax.

As for the Army Chief, He pulled the rug from under Mussharaf's feet by changing appointments the day the PM was elected. Remember, he was one of his closest aids for seven long years. If this be his maverickism, lets wait and see.
Cheerios

Kamal,

The exuberence of the mushy coup is so quickly forgotten, jut the read the posts on chowk, immediately after the coup.

Many have long forgotten the exuberence of the earlier benazir rule.

The present coalition is holding only because of the common hatred for mushy, he put both the leaders in prison. Once mushy is gone everything will fall apart. tell me one reason why it should not.

Whether you like it or not, mushy was the uniting force, and he will continue to be.

The people of pakistan heaped in the TNT dopctrine will not be able to change at all till those photos are removed from teh govt offices and the TNT publically discredited.

I watched the oath taking ceremony, and it reaffirmed the islamic rules, pakistan shall be governed by the koran and hence the jihadis are bound to have a field day. The new prime minister has to declare as part of teh oath that he is a muslim.

Take it from me Kamal, nothing will change in pakistan, because the pak society has not looked into the causal factors. The paki mind set can only think in terms of individuals, cannot see the social system as the undelying cause.

Here is a pakistani traitor, recommending an indian parsi for the prime ministers post in pakistan.

from dawn of today


In search of Nehru


I DON’T know what was preventing the PPP from announcing the name of their prime minister. It is almost a month now. Neither the eligibility criterion was made public nor the process being followed to identify the prime minister was shared.

After one month the party has made its choice known to us, can we ask if they were in search of a kind of Jawaharlal Nehru?

MAZHAR LAGHARI
Islamabad

I think tahmed is right in that the new government should be given some space to get established.

I have my reservations but VERY MUCH HOPE I am wrong; this is one occasion where I'd love to be wrong!

One thing I would say, however, is that by creating this atmosphere of vendetta against Musharraf is not going to help in the long run; this would perpetuate the same preexisting cycle that we are trying to move away from. Besides, under the circumstances at the time, who knows what the right decisions were anyway!

i wonder what I would have done, with the external pressures of gwot, US of A, terrorism, Lal masjid issue (I supported that decision and my only regret is is wasn't taken soon enough) and FATA; its one thing being a 'proud and independent race', its another being above the law. If we all started brandishing our 'independent natures(garam khoon etc)', God only knows what would happen in the world we live in.

May be that is exactly what some of these elements crave for anyway!!



Cheers

re: tahmed32 # 7

Sirji, pardon my cynicism but the political capacity, which you tout so highly is a chimera. The reason, why I am so doubtful of this political capacity of Pakistan's to save the day is that all the criteria you have identified are still in the process of developing and still, despite your best wishes, are vunerable to a change of events.

If you listen to the conventional wisdom on the street, it clearly speaks of a concern that the next year, upto spring 2009, is a very fragile year for Pakistan. Pakistan is still not out of the proverbial woods yet. The reason being that Musharaff still retains the senate and the elections for the next senate are not due till 2009. Therefore, Musharraf is not overly concerned about a two-thirds majority or a parliamentary majority turning against him and impeaching him as long as he has senate, which can block any bills from the National Assembly he does not favor too much.

This might all change in 2009 if Musharraf loses the senate and that raises the probable question if this assembly will be even allowed to finish its term if Musharraf believes that he will lose the 2009 senate vote.

Sirji, the race has just began and it does not make sense to already declare a winner yet when there are still 12 months of uncertainity ahead of the nation. As mentioned in my earlier post, the Pakistani peoples' expectations of this government solving their problems are very high and even if this government does the best it can; it still has to manage the best it can within the limitations of the reality under which it must work.

Will a democratically elected government coming into power suddenly fill Pakistan's parched rivers full and thus, provide the water to generate electrical power and lessen the daily amount of loadshedding in the nation?

Will the army sit back and do nothing, as this government implements a reduced Pakistani role in GWOT?

Will the Americans support a dialogue with the militants, and still continue to support this government as it prepares to talk with the militants? Why do think the American delegation was in Pakistan? They were here to make sure that the United States' interests in GWOT are protected and not undermined by the actions of this government.

Will everyone in Pakistan now have a job, a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs and a chicken in every pot because there is a democratically elected government in power?

Will the streets be safe and a virgin carrying a pot of gold can walk unmolested in the middle of the night?

This is what I meant by expectations and though this government may well achieve some of these objectives, it will take time and unfortunately, the people of Pakistan have no more patience left.

Hamidm is right - the first 100 days will tell the tale.

Sirji, with all due respect, much water needs to flow under the bridge and we must all live through another 365 odd days of angst before we can pat ourselves on the back and say congragulations to each other.

Ciao

Here is a top agenda item from the people of karachi to the democratically elected govt, from the people of the crime ridden electricity starved largest city of pakistan.


KARACHI: Gilani urged to snap ties with Denmark



By Our Staff Reporter


KARACHI, March 25: The Jamaat-i-Islami has urged Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani to take serious notice of the publication of blasphemous sketches in Danish newspapers and sever trade and diplomatic ties with Denmark.

This demand was made by the JI deputy chief, Prof Ghafoor Ahmad, while speaking at a press conference at Idara Noor-i-Haq on Tuesday.

He announced that a ‘Shaan-i-Mustafa’ march would be held on April 6 from the Quaid’s mausoleum to the Merewether Tower.

Allama Abbas Nazir Naqvi of the Islami Tehrik and Maulana Siddique Rathore of the Jamiat Ulema-i-Pakistan were also present.

The talk about the paki PM and and how he will change pakistan is the only trivia that has got more media coverage than the Loraina - Bobbit cutting off case more than a decade ago

Good to be positive-

It helps increase the Jazba-e-Jehad and keep the hope of supremacy of Islam over idolators intact.

Allh hu!!

After elections , the Jaza-e-Jehad has increased amongst Paki momeens.
The script that has been implanted in their minds would run it's inevitable course.

More attacks on indian cities is expected from Paki momeens. More attacks are also expected on cities in west- especially Europe.

It would only stop unless Pakistan is dismantled!!

#13 ferozk bhai: sigh!! Seems like the point of my previous post, complete with the point actually highlighted so you dont miss it, was still missed with you.

To repeat myself - I am not by any means minimizing problems by any means. All I am commending is the political capacity and maturity that the nation - civil society, lawyers, and the electorate has shown. It is this political capacity, this national character, that makes Pakistan strong enough to deal with these problems.

Please reflect a bit on this since this point seems to have simply slipped by you.

Re: # 18

laddu mian,

... for god's sake calm down ! ..... you are making the idiots on the right side of the border look like a bunch of geniuses ..... stop making a fool out of yourself - remember, you are a veggie eating hindoo not a crazy meat eating mohammedan ..... get a grip on your dhoti !

Re: # 18

tahmed,

... i don't blame you - at your age any minor stirring of the loins can set hopes soaring .... good luck !

Re: # 17

Laddu, you are doing us more harm than good.

#20 hamidm: it is a bit more than that - ask your Rising Sun Musharraf about it..

hamidm: you seem to have lost your sense of humor recently. hope all is well with lota rashid.

there is always a tragic distance with what is desirable, reachable and achiveable. But yet I know, this political dispensation will strive in earnest.
I was talking to one of the Babas of PPP. He sensibly said that this time around, it will be easier to achive policy ends because the diversity in coalition is forced to work towards predetermined goals. What a blessing.

Laddu, plz dont feel bad. It happens.

Re: # 15 Mr Jayp.... I appereciate all things you observe abd post here.
This seems to have missed your attention. ( sorry not happy news for You )
The UAE minister said in UAE talking to business leaders UAE is going to invest 100 Billion dollars in pakistan.( not million but billion, ). I was expecting you to react but it was not good news I guess.
Now 100 billion dollars in pakistan is same as 6x100=600 billion dollars needed to be investgated in india for equivalence. Now may be last year 2 billion dollars only in india. We are talking economic teams then you team is almost amature.

Our rs is 62 and indian is some 40 rs you can be happy but indian business men crying as when export comes they can not compete. A coin has to sides always , some thing good and some thing bad.

India does not have FTA ( free trade agreement) with usa or china, it is almost about to happen and leading big money coming from china and usa in industry, cheap labor+ pakistn management expertise+ chinese investmenet+ american investment= Competitive cheap price products for world market for exports.

Recently first ship docked big G and carried canadian wheat.

Chinese copper project in B.Stan is very profitable and all they produce copper is exported to china and they need more, capacity expansion by 50% in next 4 years.

Soon foreign companies bidding for 3000 MW coal fuel power plants biding. That coal is so much in Thar desert that a 300MW plant can work for 10,000 years as per foreign experts.

PIA is buying 8 brand new 777 for pakistan to west europe and usa flights.

Soon energy lines will be bringing gaseous gold in 8 ft dia pipes from Iran and TAP pipe line is still in plan. India will get cheap courtsey of pakistan pipe lines allowing export to India.

These are things are more importance than tata putting 2 billions for british car company. I wish them good luck , they need is lot , Hope mr. Tata has reasonable management team indian can be good cruncher of number but management is more complex art. It always comes to mind these 2 billion dollars can provide some better food to some portion of starving undernourished.

Hope you appreciation of good things going economically is expected.

Re: # 25

madani saab,

I really wish people post good news about pakistan as I do not see any good news in dawn and jang that I read. Of course I do not post fantacies, 100 billion in pakistan. I recall reading that a large sum of world bank and ADB loans have not been used because pakistan do not have the infrastructure to absob money, well that do not include transfers to swiss banks.

Many reports I read about economic aspects of ppakistan is pure crap. It was only yesterday that they have approved 1000MW wind power installation in karachi in the next two years. To begin with there is no wind turbine manufacturing capacity globally to do that.

You talk of chinese investm,ents, read todays dawn, chinese have won contract to clear garbage in karachi. Talk of paki management capacity, they need chinese to slave labour the paki workers. Then of course, do not forget the reason for lal masjid, it was linked to chinese run brothels. If pakis cannot run brothels and need chinese expertise, well that proves that the only task that pakistanis can do with finesse is jihad.

Did you know that teh so called number three in al quida, sheikh mohammed is a pakistani, and his sister is moving court against his illegal transfer to quantanamo, of a paki citizen. All along it was claimed that sheikh mohammed was a saudi.

If only the educated pakistanis could accept the reality that the capability of the apkistanis are inferior due to historical reasons.

From dawn of today


Reporting from Karachi, the author comments on the country’s first cabinet: “With enormous problems, Pakistan has only a very ordinary set of leaders to cope with them”, barring a few “the other members of the cabinet are all mediocrities.” The exceptions identified by the author were the “brilliant” Mr Jinnah, the prime minister and the finance minister.

In 2008, the problems have become much more enormous and the leadership has become much more mediocre. Even the exceptions at the very top are conspicuous by their absence.

The quality of political leadership went into a steep decline after Mr Jinnah. This was exacerbated by the military’s interruption of the political process that serves as the training ground for new leaders. Instead, military leaders found it in their interest to pick pliable political faces to front for them. And political leaders, in turn, promoted military leaders whom they deemed safe. A process in which incumbents picked others less clever than themselves assured a rapid race to the bottom.

Insecure political leaders, civil or military, are also prone to choosing their key bureaucrats on the basis of loyalty. Mr Ziaul Haq added to a secular decline in critical thinking by making the social sciences subservient to an ideological education in Pakistan Studies. It was no surprise to read Strobe Talbott’s comparison of South Asian bureaucrats in his book Engaging India: “In general, our sessions with the Pakistanis, while occasionally more exciting than those with the Indians, lacked a comparable degree of intellectual engagement…. While Jaswant [Singh’s] team was highly disciplined in every respect, some of Shamshad Ahmad’s colleagues tended to be querulous, surly, and sometimes abusive.”

By way of contrast, Ramachandra Guha’s new book India after Gandhi includes a description of India’s first cabinet in 1947. The 13-member cabinet included three who were not from the Congress party and three who had been lifelong adversaries of the Congress and had collaborated with the British, including the virulently anti-upper-caste Dr B.R. Ambedkar. Gandhi reminded his supporters that freedom had come to India, not to Congress, and urged “the formation of a cabinet that included the ablest men regardless of party affiliation.”

"While Jaswant [Singh’s] team was highly disciplined in every respect, some of Shamshad Ahmad’s colleagues tended to be querulous, surly, and sometimes abusive.”

One can see this on chowk. Most of the abusive language, switching to urdu, name calling etc are the speciality of pakis on chowk. This is a cultural trait, stemming from a lower intellectual capacity.

If only the tahmeds, zeemaxes and YLH of chowk could accept this and try to improve the situation, it would be agreat day for pakistan.

Re: # 26
Pakis would be more than happy to award garbage collecting contract for lahore to the indians.

#29 by treetop

Pakis would be more than happy to award garbage collecting contract for lahore to the indians.

If that happens, the first thing the Indian contractor would have to collect along with the garbage is trash like you.

Re: # 30
You are calling your brahma a trash,you will be reincarnated as a cow.

#31 by treetop

You are calling your brahma a trash,you will be reincarnated as a cow.

I don't mind that, but what about you? You're going to be reincarnated as a swine, an animal that loves trash.

Re: # 25

Madani Saab,

Its just imbecile when you try to speak about Indians' prowess in management. The very reason western countries look at India more favourably than China is for the quality managers India produce. I understand, from your many posts, that you have a good management institute in LUMS. Good for you. I am not sure about the number of the graduates it churns out and I have no way to verify the % who get placed in top companies.

All I can say is we have good quality institutes besides IIMs and ISB. Managemnt is a complex art and thats the reason Indians are more sought after for top positions. You keep hallucinating in your own world about the superiority of Pakistanis over the rest of the world when it comes to management.

C.K.Prahlad, Keki Dadiseth, Indra Nooyi, Vikram Pandit.....Its better you educate yourself else people will consider that as ramblings of an ignoramus.

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#33 ask madani sahib about the "rising sun" general musharraf.

Re: # 25 Ahmedmadani:
Yaar: Do you remember that some years ago, Pakistani Generals portrayed Pakistanis as 10 feet tall and one Pakistani soldier is equal to ten Hindoo ones.?

Well now if Pakistan turns out to be like you dream about, it might happen. It may turn out to be an Islamic Paradise!

Anyway, you may like to take a kup of hot chai and get off this grandiosity schemes of building new Red Fort in the heart of Lahore and raising the green flag and new Islamic Khilafat.

Wa Salaam,

Kamath

I am a bit dissapointed in this goody-goody article. Let me claim at the outset that I am a flaming liberal with a tiny bit of realism. It is clear even to a dodo like me that the primary objective of the coalition partners should be to survive, be it at the expense of dirty drainage and what not. The coalition has to "buy" support and for this it should dole out money left, right and center. Groups should feel that they have a stake in whatever this is ... let us call it democracy as we instinctively understand what it is with all its warts etc.

Now, it is quite clear that there is not a lot of money to "go around" (call it bribes if you may). So spread the honey amongst those who have not tasted it before. If there is not enough honey even for this then spread out power. Two things are important here to start with. Both are difficult but feasible.

1. Employ a sizeable number of (preferably incompetent) retired high level army types (with huge egos) in the secretary of defense. If such a thing does not exist then create it. At a lower level ask the army to designate high level serving officers (preferably competent). Choose the retired such that there is some amount of tension between these two categories on say the WOT. Choose a nincompoop as the defense minister (for example he could be a lawyer without any experience of defense). In all policy and finance matter randomly choose amongst the proposals, such that the serving types win 60% of the times and the retired guys win 40% of the times. Do not worry about the "goodness" of the policy. And do not allow the guys to co-operate.

2. Ask the jihadis (say the radio jock) to nominate two persons (of course this should be done secretly). Make them cabinet ministers with portfolios like "transportation" and "public distribution system" (if they do not exist then create them). Endow these ministries with huge budgets and give the ministers a free hand in spending and employment. The "secretaries" in these departments should be hired from the folds of the MQM. Give these guys no power over resources or policy but allow them to be as "corrupt" as possible.

One step at a time ......

#38 cont. ....

It seems that the Yanks do not have much of a problem with my suggestion #2.

"However, Negroponte said some hardliners can be "persuaded to participate in the democratic political process."" (Associated Press).

I am betting on this NS guy!

Arjun,

You are getting old and you may be on the verge of getting stuff wrong. Check out what NS is saying (New York Times):


" “If America wants to see itself clean of terrorists, we also want that our villages and towns should not be bombed,” he said at a news conference here. Mr. Sharif, a former prime minister, added he was unable to give Mr. Negroponte “a commitment” on fighting terrorism.

The statements by Mr. Sharif, and the cool body language in the televised portions of his encounter with Mr. Negroponte, were just part of the sea change in Pakistan’s domestic politics that is likely to impose new limits on how Washington fights militants within Pakistan’s borders.

.......

“If I can use an American expression, there is a new sheriff in town,”"

HAIL THE NEW SHERIFF .... plus all the zindabads etc.

GT,

Check out my thread on 'Connect'.

#41 Posted by zeemax:

OK, I will. What do you think of my suggestions in #38. I am serious about them (I do not mind slight variations).

#42 Posted by GT,

LoL ... yes i read them ... but those times are gone.

Not even # 2 will work. You see, these guys love death more than life, remember?

#38 Excellent ideas, GT. Nothing less expected from a"Great Unwashed-Not" soulmate of Hamidm.

Flip side: Nothing more expected either.

#43 if "these guys" loved death, they wouldnt be hiding in caves.

#45 Posted by tahmed32,

Who's hiding in caves? I thought these guys were blowing up your towns.

#44 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib,

Are you calling me a soul-mate of Hamid? Sir, Hamid is a true islamofascist. He has invited Urstruly sahib to the local bar several times (and God knows what they do there together) ... but he has never invited me even once!

#47 Posted by GT,

I have asked hamidm2 several times to take me to the eight mile strip ... but he never did ... :(

R2D2's ... LoL Echoboom Saheb Zindabad!

GT sahib: You must excuse Hamidm. He has not been in a good mood ever since King Musharraf I lost his lota Rashid.

re: tahmed32

Sirji, I did not misunderstand your post. It is just that I do not share your sense of euphoria about this government accomplishing anything other than revisiting old vendettas. I see nothing but another wasted opportunity, when Pakistan does not have any more time left to keep tinkering with a broken system, trying to fix, with worn out and tired out solutions that have failed in the past.

I agree, building up Pakistan's political capacity is good idea, but to do so with the intention of creating another round of confrontational politics, is a bad idea.

National reconcilation means forgetting the past and not embarking on another witch hunt! :)

Ciao

hmm.....pakistan start to disassociate itself from us gwot, and the weekly toll of suicide bombings goes down........

is it just a coincidence, or was there some meat to what many of us were suggesting......

......the current visit of the us delegation, wasn't really of the us delegation, but of a scared republican party.....the republicans are finished in their gwot wars.....one disaster after another.......

afghanistan is on its way to disaster.....and if pakistan backs out, it will be a complete disaster......pakistan is shoring up one flank, and is providing logistical lines, also.......

without this, americans have had it in afghanistan.......as nato allies start dropping off one after another.....

......the george bush/neo-con experiment has totally failed.....as many of us had predicted.....the only supporter left is hamidm mian.....

.....americans cannot launch war after war.....what will they do.....attack iran and pakistan.....there is no exit strategy to this war.......and no one wants to be a part of it......

americans should have not gone into afghanistan.....and should have spent that $80 billion/year rebuilding afghanistan and not bombing it.......

anyways, it is about time pakistan got out of gwot.......

Nau Gyara Bahana hai,
Afghanistan Thhikana hai,
Pakistan Nishana hai!

(Gen Retd Hameed Gul)

"If we don't fight them over there, we'll have to fight them over here"

(Bush/hamidm2/ferozk & even cliftronbridge-ism)

Really?

Taliban foot soldiers deeply ignorant of the world

Survey reveals Kandahar fighters know next to nothing about Canada or U.S., contradicting view Taliban are sophisticated terrorists

GRAEME SMITH

gsmith@globeandmail.com

March 27, 2008

KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN -- The typical Taliban foot soldier battling Canadian troops and their allies in Kandahar is not a global jihadist who dreams of some day waging war on Canadian soil. In fact, he would have trouble finding Canada on a map.

A survey of 42 insurgents in Kandahar province posed a series of questions about the fighters' view of the world, and the results contradicted the oft-repeated perception of the Taliban as sophisticated terrorists who pose a direct threat to Western countries.

Faced with a multiple-choice question about Canada's location, only one of 42 fighters correctly guessed that Canada is located to the north of the United States, meaning the insurgents performed worse than randomly.

None of them could identify Stephen Harper as the Prime Minister of Canada, and they often repeated the syllables of his name - "Stepheh Napper," "Sehn Hahn," "Steng Peng Beng," "Gra Pla Pla" - that reflected their puzzlement over a name they had never heard.

Nor did they seem to associate the word "Canada" with anything except, in some cases, the soldiers now serving in Afghanistan. Most could not distinguish between the French- and English-speaking rotations of troops.

One of The Globe and Mail's questions offered the Taliban a chance to volunteer any information about Canada: "Do you know about this country? What kind of people are there? Is it a big country or a small country? Poor country, rich country? Cold or warm? Do Muslims live there?" None offered any meaningful responses, and most of them simply declined to answer. One of the few who guessed, a 21-year-old farmer, seemed to think the word "Canada" indicated a faraway city.

"It might be an old and destroyed city," he said.

The results show the depth of ignorance among front-line insurgents in Kandahar. In a previous visit to the tribal areas of Pakistan, a reporter for The Globe and Mail personally met with more sophisticated Taliban who demonstrated a keen grasp of politics and appeared to know the latest news of the war. But those politically astute Taliban were hundreds of kilometres away from the battlefields, and it remains unclear how much control such organizers exert over the day-to-day operations of the insurgency.

The Taliban became synonymous with ignorance during their years in government, banning media such as television that might bring foreign ideas into the country. As insurgents, however, they've shown a newfound flair for technology, distributing video propaganda and sending press statements via text message to reporters' mobile phones.

"The Taliban also have a sophisticated media strategy and full grasp of modern technology," said a report by the European Council on Foreign Relations in January.

Canadian politicians and military officials often make public statements that suggest the Taliban monitor political trends in Ottawa and choose to attack at politically sensitive moments: General Rick Hillier, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, raised the possibility that a suicide bombing that killed more than 100 people in Kandahar province in February may have been connected with debates in the House of Commons about the future of the mission.

But a Western expert who reviewed The Globe's video footage said the kind of worldliness described by Gen. Hillier isn't the most likely explanation.

"Those [insurgents] making decisions are more sophisticated than those you are interviewing, so there is some chance of this being plausible," the expert said. "But I think they're working to their own calendar, not ours." Three fighters in the survey didn't recognize the name of U.S. President George W. Bush, and another mispronounced his name as "Bukh," suggesting he wasn't familiar with the word.

Those who had heard of the U.S. President often gave responses that revealed more of their parochialism. He was called a "Jew," and "King of America." Sometimes, amid the errors, the Taliban showed their simplistic view of world politics. "He is the son of George W, [and] he is the son of Clinton W, and he is American, and is a serious enemy of Islam," said one fighter in his description of Mr. Bush.

"Why is he an enemy of Islam?" he was asked.

"The Koran says: 'Jews and Christians will be unhappy until you obey them. When you obey them, they will be satisfied,' " the insurgent replied. "This means if you obey them they are happy, but if you don't accept their commands, they will fight you."

Some of the comments about Mr. Bush showed the Taliban's enthusiasm for crude violence: "If I were to capture him, I would cut a piece of his flesh even as he was still alive." They were equally vitriolic in their descriptions of Afghan President Hamid Karzai, calling him a "slave" of the Americans. "There is no difference between the red-faced and green-eyed infidel, and him," one said.

When the Taliban demonstrated any understanding beyond their immediate surroundings, it was often references to their own version of Islamic history. They invoked stories of ancient Egypt and compared the U.S. President to one of the pharaohs, also drawing a parallel between the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan and the medieval Christians who launched Crusades.

Another described the war in Afghanistan as part of a conflict that stretches back to the founding of Islam as a religion.

"Non-Muslims have been against Muslims for a long time," he said. "Just as they attacked the Prophet Mohammed and broke his teeth, so they are against us since that era."

Re: # 53

Zeemax
Nau Gyara Bahana hai,
Afghanistan Thhikana hai,
Pakistan Nishana hai!

ye ab hamara gana hai
basta naya banana hai
hum nai school jana hai
zeemax aik zanana hai

#52 by bulleya

americans should have not gone into afghanistan.....

Isn't it amazing how you always seem to get things right..so what if it is way AFTER the event has actually occurred? Remember how you were itching to give up your career in IT and join the invasion of Afghanistan? You might think you're Nostradamus, but a more appropriate name would be Postradamus, given how you predict (or is it post-dict?) things after they have happened.

#51 ferozk: Rejecting musharraf's convenient assumption that he was above the Constitution is a "witch-hunt"? You have a strange definition of a "witch-hunt", illustrious sir. :-)

feroz writes "National reconcilation means forgetting the past and not embarking on another witch hunt! :)"

National reconciliation does not mean that the status quo be enhanced. Musharraf is the Army's excrement (sh**), he needs to go, the new parliment needs to elect a new President and the Army and its sh** needs to get the hell out of political affairs...Any remnant of the military and its influence in the political arena means more of the same and time for that has run out...

Feroze,

For once I disagree with you and agree with Masadi sahib. There has to be a clean break with the past. Mush has to be impeached and put on (a just and fair) trial for treason. To send out a warning to future Bonapartes more than settling scores. Else, future military adventurism cannot be ruled out.

Regards

Re: # 59; Majumdar bhai,

Sorry can't stay for long. After reading yours and masadi sahib's comments, I think it makes some sense.

I know I did say in No:12 that may be Musharraf should be left alone. I am not in favour of capital punishment but the idea of associating these "off-the-peg military coups", with some repercussions in the future is not a bad one.

I have read some other recent interacts by Masadi Sahib as well; I don't agree with the contents in entirety but a lot of it (as far as my humble understanding goes) makes some sense. I also like the, at times, refreshingly direct approach! A significant proportion of the force of an argument can sometimes be lost in the subtlties of political correctness!

Must dash.

Cheers

Re: # 59; Majumdar bhai,

Sorry can't stay for long. After reading yours and masadi sahib's comments, I think it makes some sense.

I know I did say in No:12 that may be Musharraf should be left alone. I am not in favour of capital punishment but the idea of associating these "off-the-peg military coups", with some repercussions in the future is not a bad one.

I have read some other recent interacts by Masadi Sahib as well; I don't agree with the contents in entirety but a lot of it (as far as my humble understanding goes) makes some sense. I also like the, at times, refreshingly direct approach! A significant proportion of the force of an argument can sometimes be lost in the subtlties of political correctness!

Must dash.

Cheers

Cheema sahib,

I am not an expert in legal matters but my limited understanding is:

Mush's coup was an act of treason.
Pakistan has death penalty (as max) for treason.

But it does not have to come to that. It cud be life imprisonment or maybe whatever punishment is given, Parliament can give a pardon with riders (say a life long exile). Whatever it is due process of law shud be followed and seen to be followed as such.

Regards

re: majumdar

Article 6 of the 1973 Pakistan constitution states that anyone held responsible and found guilty for subverting the constitution, will face a death penalty. There is no stated constitutional provision for converting such a penalty (that I am aware of) into a life sentence, though such could be amended if so desired by the executive and the legislative branches. This, at least, is the theory and we all know, in Pakistan, theory hardly ever materializes into reality.

As to Musharraf being tried to discourage future Bonpartists, that would depend if you have the means to carry this process to its logical terminal end. Chest beating and sounding brave on the air waves is one thing, taming the army to allow this process; the process of putting one of it's former chiefs on trial, is the real challenge. Musharraf may have shed his uniform and Kiyani may have been distancing the army from the presidency, but will the army still remain committed to the so-called democracy, when that democracy poses an institutional threat to the military itself?

At this stage of the analysis, I must fully concur with Masadi. There are external based interests, which may not allow this possibility and yes; I am talking about the United States' strategic foreign policy goals, or what Masadi calls as the "US elites". The United States, historically speaking, has favored working with the bureaucratic-military complex in Pakistan (to borrow a phrase from Dwight Eisenhower) than it has with a civilian government and there is no emperhical evidence to suggest a paradigm shift in that assessment based on past historic experience.

There is a papable fear in Pakistan from speaking out against Al Qaeda and there is a very strong indication that this goverment may well appease Al Qaeda and the Pakistani Taliban by ceding FATA to them in exhange of "peace" in Pakistan itself. Pakistani civilian politicans are afraid of speaking the truth about the presence of Al Qaeda in Pakistan and to divert attention, they espouse popularism.

However, there is no written gurantee that terrorism in Pakistan will stop if this government gives up FATA but the United States' fear, and for which they came to apprise themselves, was that the present Pakistani government seems to be headed towards a "Munich Agreement" with the militants. The fact that such an agreement might well be the final death knell of Pakistan is immaterial to the United States, but what is of concern to them is their interests inside Afghanistan and their ability to protect those interests - read military logistics, which need Pakistani cooperation in order to be sustained.

Thus, the question. Will the United States allow the democratic process in Pakistan to undermine its regional intrests?

The answer seems to be a "no".

FATA of Pakistan has developed into a linchpin of American military operations inside Afghanistan and that is why, there is a growing realization inside United States' foreign policy decision making circles that critical battles in GWOT that will influence the strenghtening of United States' regional interests, will be fought inside FATA and Pakistan.

The United States' strategic interests will always take precedence over individual choices/policies and likewise, Obama or Clinton or McCain will still target and bomb FATA if that is in American interests regardless of whether there is a Musharraf in power or not or if there is a military or a civilian government in Islamabad.

Presently, the United States is quiety observing the developing political scene inside Pakistan, and suggesting to the new government that a policy, which encourages a lessening of Pakistan's role in GWOT is not necessarily the best solution. One has to remember that Pakistan can ill afford to follow a policy, which basically amounts to one of isolationism from the GWOT, because Pakistan does not have the capacity to sustain such a policy for the long term.

Pakistan's economy is dependent on foreign aid and all of its debts were rescheduled on the promise of its contributions in the GWOT and therefore, Pakistan can be financially squeezed to make it cry "uncle" should the need warrant itself in the future.

At this stage, the crux of the matter is what Masadi said in the past and with which I tend to agree and that is; in the larger scheme of things, Musharraf's fate is immaterial to the final equation and putting him on trial might be pointless unless and until, we can are also capable of removing the United States' influence from Pakistan and being economically and political independent from the United States' and from its global strategic interests.

Therefore, Majumdat sahib, in order to discourage future Bonapartist in Pakistan, you have to discourage the institutions that support them. Punishing people, who act as spokespersons for such institutions, may gain a sense of popular retribution but will achieve nothing in the long run and the words from the Eagles song, it would all have been "a wasted time".

Ciao

Ferozk,

Surrendering FATA to the jihadis is the easy part. Already most of the predators attacks have been interpreted as explosion of ammunition stored in such houses. The problem is that the FATA jihadis are supported by a steady stream of support from teh rest of pakistan, partly in the form of haven for the stolen cars, and progressively as an operating base for the bank robers.

The recent suicide attacks and the killing of the genrals and the military men have shown that teh FATA based guys can create havoc through out pakistan.

There is no doubt that the new govt has no options, nor the military has.
The situation is similar to kargill, the military started the process and found teh situation unmanageable, called in the politicians to spell out the surrender terms.

Unconditional military withdrawal from FATA. The problem will be if there are predator attacks, the jihadis will blame it on the pak military, and they will become the targets. It is a total loss situation for the pak govt and the army.

Future of pakistan

Nawaz will align more with the jihadis

More targeted killings of PPP workers and leaders

Nawaz will withdraw support to govt once mushy leaves

In the re-election Nawaz will align with PML- Q and the jihadis

A military coup following Nawaz victory, instigated by the yanks.

Democracy poses a threat vicariously to the military, them being the sum total of what constitutes of Pakistan to date, as democracy is actually the undoing of Pakistan, if not all Third World nations. Previously the military have bailed out Pakistan following its democratic misadventures, but I have a feeling that this instance may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Taking into consideration the global and regional situation, the current political and economic climate along with the fact that the Pakistani civilian leadership consists essentially of criminals, it is fair to say Pakistan is not very likely to survive this democracy.

I think an as an idolator the agenda has been set for me by the new government.

1. They would deal wiht terror so that momeen casualities are down and momeens do not kill momeens!!

2. They would now try and push these frustrated jehadis to idolator and kafir lands so that they do not kill momeens in Palistan.

3. To avoid implosion of Pakistan the PAki momeen leaders are trying to explode and give way to the jehadis to kill kafirs by helping them fulfil the aspirations of kashmiris and other momeens.

So, I see more support to jehadis. An this is going to create a deadly situation of implosion and explosion!!!


I hope Paki momeens have learnt a lesson by playing with jehadi fire or by "supporting" the jahadis are ready to play again with fire and they have a death wish!

As it is said - Visnashkaale Vipareet Buddhi!! (when the end approaches of a man his wisdom flees on its own.)

Re: # 67

Ladduji,

Just a trivial question. Your vanavasam came to an abrupt end?

Re: # 66

lead,

The PM is simply insane, he is anti everything that pakistan has been doing, and another military coup is not far away.

I have posted a new ilog, your contribution in the form of e-mail or other addresses of relevant figures would be appreciated...

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