Small Spies Must be Hanged , While Bigger Ones Prosper

By casting unsubstantiated aspertions on such a dedicated man as Munir Ahmad Khan, who headed Pakistan's nuclear program as PAEC chairman for 19 long years, from 1972-91, Brig. Tirmizi has only blackened the face of the ISI.

What he has failed to explain is how did Munir Khan continue as PAEC chairman under diametrically opposed regimes and governments, from ZA Bhutto to General Zia, from Junejo to Benazir, Nawaz Sharif and Ghulam Ishaq Khan, and also continue to have their confidence and support for several projects in PAEC that he had launched and managed; and work with several Army and Intelligence Chiefs, if Tirmizi's accusations should be assumed to have been true.

Munir Khan's scientific colleagues who worked with him in PAEC for 19 years, from Dr. Isfhaq Ahmad, Dr. Samar Mubarakmand, Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, Pervez Butt and many others have testified on numerous occasions to his impeccable integrity, honesty, patriotism and devotion to duty.

In fact, it is well known that Munir Khan's penchant for secrecy was legendary. This was so successful that throughout the 1970s and 80s, the world and the CIA kept guessing on exactly what PAEC was doing and what was its exact role.

His policy of secrecy was so successful that when PAEC under him carried out the first cold test of an atomic bomb on March 11, 1983, it remained a closely guarded secret known only to the Vice Chief of Army Staff, President Zia and Ghulam Ishfaq Khan. The cloak of secrecy on PAEC was only lifted when it came out in the open and successfully carried out six nuclear tests in May 1998.

Tirmizi is a contiuation of a massive effort launched by PAEC's detractors who have been involved in illegally selling Pakistan's centrifuge technology, and who have made several attempts to discredit Munir Khan and PAEC.

But Munir's work speaks for itself. Under his leadership, Pakistan's nucelar program developed into a dynamic centre of nuclear science and technology. From 1972 onwards, he launched several projects in PAEC ranging from uranium exploration, mining, refining, nuclear fuel fabrication, uranium conversion and enrichment feed production, uranium enrichment, and reprocessing facilities.

In addition under Munir's leadership Pakistan's indigenous nuclear reactor in Khushab, the nuclear test sites at Chaghi, the infrastructure for the design, development and testing of nuclear weapons beginning in 1974, and the entire nuclear fuel cycle program was built and developed in PAEC.

No amount of mudslinging can erase the contribution made by Munir Khan and his team of hundreds of dedicated scientists and engineers who enabled Pakistan to come on the nuclear map of the world.

Over my life time I have heard the word "caste" mentioned numerous times, sometimes I hear it in context with the Hindu faith and at times in context with Punjabi ethnicity or culture.
If there is someone out there with knowledge on the subject of "caste system" in Hindu faith and also in typical Punjabi culture, I will appreciate understanding the basics of caste system and the castes itself.
Anticipating a scholarly response.
Thank you.

Shoaib Ahthar looks like a dravidian...

Re: # 148
HP...You are really dumb...Islam has not created a civilisation in Pakistan (unlike the jews in Israel). (In present day Pakistan) There were more than 3000 years of continious human habitation and civilisation...(When people learn the skill of agricluture, they leave niomadic life and settle. Food is primary requirement for human settlement)...It is natural that, most of the people in present Pakistan are descendants of of the people of that land, rather than that of Arab invaders...
From family customs it is possible to find linkage to other group. Though I am "farmer" by caste in West Bengal, our family customs gives enough hint that our ancestors were Utkal (from Orissa) Brahmins may be 200 years ago...

Re: # 148
HP...You are really dumb...Islam has not created a civilisation in Pakistan (unlike the jews in Israel). (In present day Pakistan) There were more than 3000 years of continious human habitation and civilisation...(When people learn the skill of agricluture, they leave niomadic life and settle. Food is primary requirement for human settlement)...It is natural that, most of the people in present Pakistan are descendants of of the people of that land, rather than that of Arab invaders...
From family customs it is possible to find linkage to other group. Though I am "farmer" by caste in West Bengal, our family customs gives enough hint that our ancestors were Utkal (from Orissa) Brahmins may be 200 years ago...

Re: # 148
HP...You are really dumb...Islam has not created a civilisation in Pakistan (unlike the jews in Israel). (In present day Pakistan) There were more than 3000 years of continious human habitation and civilisation...(When people learn the skill of agricluture, they leave niomadic life and settle. Food is primary requirement for human settlement)...It is natural that, most of the people in present Pakistan are descendants of of the people of that land, rather than that of Arab invaders...
From family customs it is possible to find linkage to other group. Though I am "farmer" by caste in West Bengal, our family customs gives enough hint that our ancestors were Utkal (from Orissa) Brahmins may be 200 years ago...

Re: # 126
Masadi, if I were to use your language you don't deserve of more than one drop of your favorite fluid and that too should be enough to drown a character like you.
As far as my existence here is concerned that is not to compete with anyone and does not justify anyone's legitimacy regardless of how long they have been here, rather what counts is "morals" which you don't seem to exhibit.
It's time you get over with the fever of your self-righteousness and adopt a language of sobriety.
To correct your misunderstanding and illusiveness you are the one who interrupted and commented on my statement, I did not come to your threshold, if you have a difficulty in following the thread then you should make sure that you do not step on others, otherwise you will be shoved.

Re: # 148; HP

Read the last two words of 'Interact 141' out loud to yourself and your dog for me.......

#148
"the school level which was the scoop of the discussion here."

Should be:
the school level which was the scope of the discussion here.

#144 Posted by akcheema

You are such a woozy. Dr. Mubarak was my teacher and believe me, I can actually ask him to come on chowk and post what he meant. His quote refers to “Study” which could be at a higher level and not at the school level which was the scoop of the discussion here. 1960 was only 13 years after the partition and there might be some studies in Punjab University or other universities in Pakistan which dealt with Ramayana and Mahabharata.

In fact, in Sindhialogy department of Sindh University, Jamshoro, where Dr. Mubarak was also a professor of History, they still teach several subjects that were related to the Hindu and Buddhist periods in Sindh. But these are places for higher learning and not Grade schools.

One last thing; you couldn’t even figure out the reference to your Sikh Heritage…shows how dumb you are.

On the Indian side, Romila Thapar and Irfan Habib have likely done more to spread religious hatred and intolerance than any other pair of 'Indians' (Irfan Habib is an Indian, but is Romila Thapar an Indian too?). They led an endless school of Nehruzada 'historians' who assiduously painted a most bizarre picture of universal love and brotherhood that anybody with any intelligence outgrew with teenage years.

Thanks to these two 'scholars' and their mindless acolytes, generation after generation of Indians was brought up to discover things the very hard way - by travelling and seeing facts with their own eyes, by reading books on their own time, and finding that these books mostly said totally opposite of what Thapar-Habib combine claimed they did.

So, Indian history, the way Thapar-Habib combine sold it, certainly is the primary source of historical animus.

But historical animus is quite a small element in the overall scheme of perceptions. Ideological hatred is almost entirely absent since Hindus know nothing of Islam - they are completely convinced that Islam is just the same as Hindusim - Arabic Hinduism as it were. Most of the hatred is related to political issues and actions of the two states, as Indians see external events (with an exaggerated sense) impacting their and their children's lives.

Now, with TV and other forms of electronic communication, anybody playing the enemy gets painted darker and much quicker than before.

What I wanted to convey was that we do not learn about the leaders in other fields such Economy, Agriculture, Trade, Engineering, Spirituality and Social Engineering.

The reaon for no large land holding in Maharashtra gave rise to ccoperative movement that distinguishes rural Maharashtra from UP & Bihar. Casticism is severe where there is feudalism. Sant Parampara (Warkari) worked hand-in hand with political power of Marathas. Shivaji abolished Muslim Watan/Jahagirdari system and gave sword in hand of every one including Bramhins and Mahars. How many know that Holkar's of Indore were Dhangars and Gaikwads of Varodara kurmis/kunabis?

History should be peoples history.

Re: # 140:

Very insightful! We all read history of his-story written by darbari gandus such as Romilla.

Nobody tells us who was the architect of Tajmahal or how was it financed.

We are not told how much was the average land holding around 1000AD and how much was it in 1757 in different areas where Muslims ruled. And how much was it by 1857 and 1947?

Why casticism is probably least in Maharashtra? Why there is strong saint parampara in Maharashtra compared to rest of India? What is the historical reason?

How Indians could have avoided minoriticism of Abrahmic religions? What could have Indians done socially so that people cared for their own "real" growth, their mohalla's growth, their language's growth and their state's growth before any thing else? How could we have reduced people's religious identity? We should plan and act so that a Marathi Dhondu can be Muslim in faith just as he could be Jain, Buddhist or Hindu. Dearabization and deAbrahmization of Abrahmic faith needs to happen for tranquility in India.

Re: # 141 for HP and his dog;

try this link and see how you go; I have nothing more to add to this board

http://baithak.blogspot.com/2005/11/dr-mubarak-ali-ameera-javeria.html

Re: # 134
Common Indian learned to hate Pakistan not from books but what he saw from May 78 onwards...

Ans: Correct. History books in India tries to hide islamic barbarism in all possible corners ( courtsey Romila Thapar and her moslem slave Habib...and set of croonies from JNU). When people read literature written before 1947( Tagore, B C Chatterjee ...) Islamic barbarism is exposed to large extent. Kashmir, couple of wars had helped aggravate the problem. Pakistan/Islam is now exposed. So, it is not exclusive to India.....( One of the toppers in most hated nations in USA,UK...).

If there is ONE bharti/hindu interactor I admire, it is Sanatani ... because his highly opinionated views are as solid as mine, and not uninformed like the hindoo cockroaches nor shallow as our murtids!

Re: # 135; HP the ignoramus!

I have alreadt included the reference to my statement (Dr Mubarak Ali - who is a historian and scholar from Lahore). May be you can do your own searches to find out about his books and other articles on Pakistani history.

You know nothing about me so keep your 'munaafiq' mouth shut rather than dish out personal insults in the future. My ancestors were probably Sikhs, don't know for certain. Same way your ancestors were probably Hindus as well (same as more than 95% of Pakistanis despite their delusions of a genetic connection with their arab masters (don't tell me you are Arain!).

And whilst you are at it, throw a bone to Zeemax the Imbecile as well; I'd be very grateful.

Now how can I put this politely for both your benefit? No, you are absolutely right...I can't....PISS OFF!

Re: # 112
Proca...

Ans: Muslims were never leaders in any field of social life...They were military rulers...After the arrival of British, muslims failed to create a segment of civil leaders, like that of Gandhi, Tilak, Lajpat Rai, Bipin Pal...to be a mass leader, you have to be an Indian first ( not a Arab/Middle east clone)...muslims failed to realise that...

Re: # 84

Well said.

Fk If I could would rate J Sahib him just about 1 level below the Sikh Gurus and the Chattrapati and Chattrashal and Rani Durgawati and Lachit Barkhupan and all those who resisited Islamic imperialism in India.

Waise the scum we people are (Hindus) is that the Salvation we got in 1947 was due to a Mozz.

Maybe we need Jats or Gujjars or Yadavs as Indias leader not Savarna or Dalit Chooths.

Chaudhry Charan SIngh Zindabad.

Or maybe we can reconvert Zeemax and make him PM or maybe Shri B Mehsud.

Mazumadiya why dont you take our Paigham to BM and see.

Sanatani

Re: # 79

Oye Majumdar,

Do not insult me. I am certified HM. I was kicked out of RSS. These fkrs are the biggest admirers of Gandhi.

But I still have to vote for that Sindhi Snake as TINA.

Paks are lky they killed the Sindhi biatch. B Mehsud for Prez.

Sanatani

Other Sindhis esp Hindus sorry for the above comment just leting out feeling

Re: # 76

From Your observations and comments it is clear that you are one of those types.

Gandhi was scum and he was scum because of many reasons the biggest being he could not reconcile to the fact that the Mozz did not consider him their leader.

For this he was prepared to go to any lenght to sacrifice the Hindus.

Thank Shri Krishna who came in the form of Shri 107 Shri Jinnah Sahib and who rescued Hindus.

Madar Das pan da phaduha Gandhi pen****choda changa hai Shri 107 1/2 Shri Gode Mahoday ne mara.

Sanatani

HP,

cheema is a shallow dingo.

#132 Posted by akcheema
Spare me the sermon!

You are just making up one story after another without any substance.

Sounds like you are just a compulsive liar and nothing more than that.

Here is some more evidence of your lying:
“Did you know legends like 'Mahabharta' and 'Ramayan' used to be part of Pakistani curriculum until then! "

BS again. It wasn’t part of any curriculum. Where did you hear this BS . Oh…you are just making up another story. Clearly you don’t know squat about Pakistan.

You made up one story about Gandhi now that you can’t prove that you start another about Mahabharata and Ramayana.

“Vengat, and possibly Majumdar are probably the only people I have come across that don't openly express sheer hatred towards Pakistanis and Islam.”

So how come you start blaming Pakistanis for institutionalizing hatred for Gandhi or anyone else for that matter.

“he(Gandhi)was NOT a politician in the sense we understand that word. He never sought office, or any other prestige, for himself.”

You are such a dumb fck that I have NO words to even describe it properly. Gandhi was first and foremost a politician and whatever he did was related to his politics. Everyone has a way of doing their politics and that was his style nothing selfless about it.

All politicians are extrovert and they do care about their image and style. I mean this ridiculous assumption that he was some sort of saint or reincarnation of god, who descended on India to change the masses, is totally bull. That is good for simpletons like you but not for everyone.

And what is sincerity? That really shows you are a complete idiot!
How old were you when you found out about your Sikh heritage?

Re: # 132: Could not help terminating this equal-equal gandugiri
"The motivation of hatred by Indians, I cannot understand at all. Vengat, and possibly Majumdar are probably the only people I have come across that don't openly express sheer hatred towards Pakistanis and Islam. This is despite my assertions that if something in Islam or Pakistan is to be criticised, I'd rather it is done by the people concerned themselves. Silly jibes don't contribute to a healthy discussion at all.
"

Common Indian learned to hate Pakistan not from books but what he saw from May 78 onwards. On an average 40 killings of Indians per month till Dec 2007 can be directly associated with the IEDs, RDXs and the electronic detonators provided by Pakistan to Sikh separatists, Kashmiri gandu namakharams (because India subsidized their daily necessities for all these years and saved them from brutal rapes of paki tribal lashkars) and the goons like Dawood gang (well ensconced in safe houses in Karachi and Islamabad).

Pakistan ke Baap Kya Jata if Babri is flattened or Kashmir is denied independence? Kashmir is as internal problem of India as Tibet is for China.

In India commoner does not believe goody-goody things written in the books by p-secs. He reads the news and connects the dots even though the opeds and editorial try to do hide the community and the country behind these killings.

Before anyone tries to carry on in this vein, the matter is closed for discussion from my POV. I have better things to do with my time than to go around in circles day after day.

Thanks

Re: # 128; HP

There IS a lot of hatred which has been a part of our curriculum almost since the 1960s (Ayub; after 1965). It is deeply engrained, can almost go un-noticed, yet seems to produce 'good' results just the same! Did you know legends like 'Mahabharta' and 'Ramayan' used to be part of Pakistani curriculum until then! I am not in the habit of cutting & pasting from other websites; perhaps you can read some of the stuff Dr Mubarak Ali (from Lahore) has produced on the subject.

I wasn't going to quibble about Moenjo-darro etc; read carefully what I wrote, then comment.

You are absolutely right in that the same would have to be true for Indians as well. There is just so much hatred expressed on this site alone, it is not funny.

The 'hatred', if that is the right word, that we have towards others in our society, is more covert. It is this false sense of superiority over others that gets indoctrinated at an early age. May be you went to very previleged schools, I don't know your background. That is NOT where 90% of Pakistani school kids would go to.

I suppose I am biased in the sense that I wasn't born in Pakistan and from an early age spent a big part of my life in England. The comment I made was in the context of actually reading some of the curriculum that I read at College (Pakistan), stuff my cousins etc were reading at schools and make a complete 'outsiders' observation. I always try to place myself in that position; how else would you justify little snide comments about the hindu/pagan cultures of ancients in the Indus Valley. I suppose that is why I can spot and point out the so-called 'hate-verses' in our religious texts from a mile away, when according to majority of Muslims, they either never existed or have some covert (perhaps milder) interpretation!

I have had this problem all along. I have had the advantage of a western upbringing, with strong Islamic background, can speak, read and write both Punjabi and Urdu (have extensively studied the literature as well). My appraisal and critique of most things tends to be objective and appropriately thought through (though we all make errors of judgement from time to time).

The motivation of hatred by Indians, I cannot understand at all. Vengat, and possibly Majumdar are probably the only people I have come across that don't openly express sheer hatred towards Pakistanis and Islam. This is despite my assertions that if something in Islam or Pakistan is to be criticised, I'd rather it is done by the people concerned themselves. Silly jibes don't contribute to a healthy discussion at all.

And I apologise to you for having hit a nerve inadvertently; it was done with the facts available for all to see (if one has an open mind) and with the utmost sincerity.

As for the Gandhi matter; I never defended anyone's mistakes regardless of who they were. In my opinion, what he did was through sincerity (wrong at times nevertheless) as opposed to the opposition. Besides, he was NOT a politician in the sense we understand that word. He never sought office, or any other prestige, for himself. People may have difficulties understanding his methods, they were far from conventional to say the least, but he was sincere all the same.

I suppose, as Oscar Wilde would say, "the only thing worse than being talked about is NOT being talked about"!.

Re: # 112: Quick and dirty answer. U need to know the words u use and the personalities involved.

"
The fathers of communalism as an idea in Indian politics were Syed Ahmad Khan, Lala Lajpat Rai, Gandhi and the Jauhar brothers!
"

What is communalism? Forming communes such as Tolstoy farm in SA, Wardha Maharashtra and Sabarmati Gujarat in living and searching truth is communalism then Gandhi was communal. Having prayers of Ishwar Allah Tero Naam is communal then he is indeed one such fellow. Using terms such as Satyagraha, Swami, Swarajya and Ramrajya is communal then he is one. When he blesses marriage of ashramite Shanti to another ashramite Sadiq Ali (Governor of Maharashtra) he can be considered communal because he encouraged union of two commune residents.

Ask yourself did he ask for reservation on the basis of religion like Syed Ahmad Khan? U may not be indulging in "our Gandu is better than ur Gandhi" but trying to do equal-equal. Dharma cannot be equated to Abrahmic or Marxian religions. This hardens the newer generation against Muslim and time is coming in many places where more common Hindu is feeling that a good Muslim is the dead Muslim. Pl mind that I grew up in an environment as depicted in Swades, many relatives have married into Islam and personally celebrated Moharram with gusto as we did Shivjayanti for decade of my childhood. Have slept in Imambara for three days and had many neighbors and school mates who were Muslims. People are really thinking -
majority of muslims are falling to Rakshasa or Pishachya consciousness.
Only Sword works against them.
Only arpar ki ladai with total destruction of Islam is needed to save world from this Abrahmic madness.
-

Islam unless indianized completely with Indian words to describe its core spirituality it will destroy India.

Lala Lajpat Rai probably understood what India will go thru in short term. What is his communalism? Reconverting folks back into Hinduism? Why should it be one way street? Did he apply force or gave economic inducements?

"
The leaders of the Hindu majority saw themselves as successors of the British Viceroys while the principal leaders of the Indian Muslims hypothesised that parliamentary democracy in independent India would mean Hindu ascendancy and Muslim subservience or more correctly all power in the hands of the Hindu politicians!
"
That is how democracy works! Who is bothered about Kalam's religion whether its Wahabism or Hinduised/vedantized Islam?
Islamic truly spiritual people will not indulge in religious darbari gandugiri. But then u guys might call them Dharmic people.

PS: What u wrote later made more sense and in line with what i wrote above. Sorry for being crass and harsh. but when u did equal-equal it triggered my allergy to p-secs.

I have posted a new ilog...


........end of public service message.........

#128 for vengatramanan

"Don't you think it is time for people of common values get together?"

First you accuse me of trying to muzzle cheema for his so called truth. (which is not the case as pavo's post confirms that.)Then you wanna talk to me about common values.

Just think for a moment. You believe that cheema is telling the truth without any investigation or any knowledge about Pakistan or its school system and then you talk about the common values. On top of that you make preposterous statements and then expect me to join you for some common values!

You may have common values with Cheema but not with me.

"people of common values get together?"

This is a joke, isn't it!

Goodnight or rather good morning!

siding with saimakhan not shah- pardon this error

Izuber writes "I hope you will forgive me for having to post under the influence of feelings consequent to uncalled for attacks over and again by masadi."

Izuber you are a hypocrite and a liar. There were no uncalled for attacks by me, you made the first "attack" move by siding with saimashah calling for stopping my voice on the gallery and defending the chowk staff censorship of my articles- even though you happened to be on Chowk for less than a month- and then insinuating that I was Mossad and after discovering my writings that I was impersonating Muhammed Asadi (myself!)- now like the other spineless creatures here you hide behind the slogan of "he attacked me"- get some morals fool....

Madani sahib I appreciate your support, don't waste time with these newbie a-holes who think they are God's gift to chowk while having contributed less than half a pee drop to discourse here...

#124 Posted by vengatramanan
"I am sorry Saab, to see you still thinking on the lines of nationality and religion."


You are again jumping to conclusions. Where did I mention religion or Nation in my post? The issue was that guy was flat out lying so I asked him to speak for himself.

Cheema sahib appears to be mentally unstable. On one board he is an atheist-Muslim, on the other he is a British citizen, and on the third board he starts speaking for all Pakistanis.

"Cheemaji was not because he was wrong but he chose to speak at a place where Indians frequented regularly"

You don't know me enough to come to this conclusion. Only Kaal or Eklavya can suggest such a thing! That kind of stupid nationalism is very popular amongst Indians on this site! I have been posting here for four years now. Go check my previous posts and only then you will learn how stupid your "presupposition" is!


I am beginning to think you are just cheema's jodidar or something.

Re: # 120

HP Saab,


"I am sorry but what is posted on this forum suggest to me that hate is institutionalized in your system...,oh...That maybe my perception!"

Its not your perception rather your presupposition...Anyway you have the freedom to presuppose on what I could be...Don't be surprised if it turns otherwise :)

I am sorry Saab, to see you still thinking on the lines of nationality and religion. I believe your anger towards Cheemaji was not because he was wrong but he chose to speak at a place where Indians frequented regularly. I was contemplating, to ask Cheema Saab to take back his words because prejudice transcends nationality or religion. Don't you think it is time for people of common values get together?

Re: # 112
Thus while the other parts of the world intellectually as well as materially made great progress during the period 1850-1950 all the energies of the Indians at all levels were increasingly diverted into communalism;
Ans: This is not true...
I can refer to hundreds of positive developments in Bengal, Maharashtra and Punjab. Those who had access to modern/British education system, they prospered. The amount of progress made by Bengalis in field of literature, science, engineering, medical science during 1850-1940 is immense....

Re: # 113
Btw, nowhere in any school system school going children are taught 5-6000 years of history. If that were to happen, kids will only read history. They are given pertinent information and at the school level that is good enough!

Ans: Basic information about Ancient/Golden Age, Mideaval/Dark Age and Modern Age is part of any curriculla of the respective countries....

Re: # 110
as far as i know gandhi , jinnah and nehru were almost similar people ..

Ans: This is oversimplification. Jinnah and Nehru may be comparable, Gandhi is somebody who had brought entire India together...Gandhi has not used any negative agenda/hatred towards anybody/even British...

#117 Posted by vengatramanan
"Cheemaji perceives as blatant hate propoganda could very much come across a regular thing for you. We all see the same colour differently, I guess."

Your guess is just plain ridiculous. What you are implying is perhaps not only a figment of your imagination but also a reflection of what you have been taught in your school system!

You seem to be a nice guy and I suggest don't jump to conclusions as you have no knowledge of what goes on in Pakistani school system.

I am sorry but what is posted on this forum suggest to me that hate is institutionalized in your system...,oh...That maybe my perception!

#116 Posted by pavocavalry
"no one has commented on use of torture and death in custody of many people in pakistan by the intelligence agencies"

Pavo, we lament many deaths. I had some close friends and political friends murdered in the army custody and that was late 70s and early 80s.

Both India and Pakistan are unable to unshackle the colonial mindset.
These countries and their leaders have still not been able to change the Indian panel code. They are still running the same judicial system keeping the populations in slave like conditions.
Regards

Kahaan tak sonno gay
Kahan tak sunaoon
Hazaroon hain shikway
Kiya kiya Bataoon!

Btw, I am not into reading Ilogs.

#98 Vengat

Colonial rule was more a racial thing of white supremacy. When Japan could defeat in a lightening speed the colonial powers in Asia…. That aura of white supremacy …was gone for ever.

And with nearly 3 million Indians who fought for the English.. and were key in defeating the Germans in North africa and Italy… it sure was difficult for the British to hold on to India any longer.

HP Saab,

Cheemaji could not be speaking for all of the Pakistanis, probably for the people with whom he shares values. It is very much possible what Cheemaji perceives as blatant hate propoganda could very much come across a regular thing for you. We all see the same colour differently, I guess.

You know better than me...

HP Sain , thanks for the feedback .its an excerpt from my article stray reflections on commencement of writing pakistan army since 1965 in the ilogs . i am surprised that no one has commented on use of torture and death in custody of many people in pakistan by the intelligence agencies.at least two contemporaries of mine from quetta have disappeared like this.a rather sad conclusion to what jinnah may have visualised.also the death sentence in spying cases is not challenged or reversed by any superior court.this is the unwritten rule of business in india and pakistan both.also the trial by court martial in these cases is very faulty.best regards HP Sain.

Pavo,


"In a more advanced Indian society Nehru and Jinnah may have been leaders of all Indians rather than only Hindu Indians or Muslim Indians! "

Thanks,

Very true...indeed it boils down to the ability of the people to identify their leaders, which often leads to leaders representing the qualities of the masses.


Nkg,

Nayak Kings were both peasants and fighters. You should be happy, inspite all of the gory incidents, we have no more kings to lord over us...

#112 Posted by pavocavalry

Pavo,
You summed it up very well. I pretty much agree with what you wrote.

This is really unfortunate that all major political leaders in the undivided subcontinent were never able to rise above their own ambitions. Basically, they were all toadies and did not do anything without first getting approval from the British.

#110 Posted by pavocavalry

“as i understand from studying in about 15 schools in pakistan in 10 years no pakistani curriculum books propagated hatred against gandhi.”

Thanks Pavo.

akcheema

Did you not write this?

#105 Posted by akcheema
"speaking as a Pakistani, hatred for Ghandhiji is part of our upbringing."

All I asked to not to speak for all Pakistanis. You can speak for yourself because perhaps hate was part of your upbringing! Maybe you should ask your parents why they taught you to hate people!

As far as School books are concerned, my living in Pakistan or outside of Pakistan does not really matter. Please tell me in what grade/Class they teach hate Gandhi? I will make sure that the history book from that grade is delivered to your home.

“Are you trying to tell me that children now are taught their history for the last 5-6000 years of civilisation’

Where did I say or even implied that? Aren’t we talking about Gandhi which is fairly recent history?

Btw, nowhere in any school system school going children are taught 5-6000 years of history. If that were to happen, kids will only read history. They are given pertinent information and at the school level that is good enough!

Just for your info: Moenjodaro is not 5-6000 years old(2600 BC)!


Pavo,
you are right they were politicians like anyone else now or in the past.

The fathers of communalism as an idea in Indian politics were Syed Ahmad Khan, Lala Lajpat Rai, Gandhi and the Jauhar brothers! The British on the other hand right from 1858 followed a subtle but brilliant policy, introducing parliamentary democracy as bait to divert the energies of the more prominent Indians! A bait, which aroused ambition, whether based on ego, lust for glory, social recognition or material rewards! Peaceful yet heroic! Safe yet glorious! The double advantage of pursuing a prosperous law practice or business career or wielding feudal power while at the same time also being leaders of the subject Indians and the possible successors of the British Viceroys! Parliamentary democracy or its prospects once the British finally left India produced two distinct kinds of reactions, both of which helped the British and went against the people of the Indo-Pak Sub-continent! The leaders of the Hindu majority saw themselves as successors of the British Viceroys while the principal leaders of the Indian Muslims hypothesised that parliamentary democracy in independent India would mean Hindu ascendancy and Muslim subservience or more correctly all power in the hands of the Hindu politicians! The Hindu-Muslim question in reality was a 'Hindu-Muslim leaders clash of ego' question! It all started once the British introduced local self-government based on elections from the 1860s and aggravated more and more as leaders who were Hindu by accident of birth tried to sideline other leaders who were Muslim by accident of birth! Initially leaders from both the communities talked in terms of high sounding slogans like 'Nationalism' 'Liberty' 'Democracy' etc but became more narrow in approach once their religion became a psychological disqualification in being leaders of all Indians! The fact that the vast majority of Indians whether Muslim or Hindu would remain poor as they were before 1947 and are in the year 2000 was not important for these men. The Congress and League were essentially bourgeois parties with a larger feudal presence in the league and a larger urban business presence in the Congress. Both these parties employed religion as a tool to further their party agendas, middle class business class or feudal on the whole and egoistic at the higher level!

Nehru was an atheist and a socialist, Mr Jinnah was a highly Westernised man, and yet both were great Hindu and Muslim leaders. Both the parties were instruments of business professional and feudal classes to achieve maximum power and both increasingly divided Indian society on communal lines simply because their leaders were essentially highly egotistical men! The irony of Indo-Pak history is the fact that modern Indo-Pak history is a story of clash of great men like Nehru and Jinnah who employed religion as a tool simply because they correctly albeit ironically realised that the people of the Indo-Pak were too naive to understand vague slogans like liberty or democracy and could only be galvanised or mobilised by raising religious slogans! In a more advanced Indian society Nehru and Jinnah may have been leaders of all Indians rather than only Hindu Indians or Muslim Indians! India, however, was like Europe around the time of the 30 years war and thus both these great men were forced by historical circumstances to be only communal leaders! Both wanted to be leaders of all Indians regardless of race or religion, but both were forced, thanks to the fire of religious communalism lit by glorified agitators or complex and outwardly impressive hypocrites like Gandhi to be communal leaders! Nehru was too sophisticated a man to be a Hindu and Jinnah was too enlightened a man to be only a leader of Indian Muslims. It was a twist of fate that both are today remembered albeit rightly as leaders of Hindu or Muslim India.

Thus while the other parts of the world intellectually as well as materially made great progress during the period 1850-1950 all the energies of the Indians at all levels were increasingly diverted into communalism; thereby ensuring that intellectually as well as materially the Indo-Pak Sub-Continent remained backward! History was written as Muslim or Hindu history, politics was practised as Hindu or Muslim politics and while Europe was experimenting with radical social legislation, all the energies of Indian constitutionalist were absorbed in debating representation on basis of religion! College or University education was important because it was a pre-requisite for government jobs or to practise in the law courts! Research teaching and writing were unproductive jobs since they did not enable a man to be a deputy collector or barrister or doctor! It was a mad race made further mad by frequent outbursts of communal frenzy, which increased as population increased during the period 1890-1940. All this helped the Britishers who had been traumatically shaken by the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 when a largely Hindu majority army had rebelled under Muslim leaders! The British were thus happier playing the role of judges resolving Hindu Muslim disputes rather than performing the more unpleasant task of facing a combined political movement of all Indians regardless of race or religion as in 1857, 1919 or 1922 ! This is the basis of anti-intellectualism in the Indo-Pak Sub-continent. It is more true for Pakistan since the Muslims were educationally more backward and relatively less true, yet still true and applicable to India too!

Re: # 102
Vengat....
(Mpolahs and all other Muslims who chose to stay back... )

Why Mpolahs will leave, when the greater society is not creating an atmosphere of fear and intimidation?
South Indian ruling class is deeply influenced by jainism and no military strength/will left within these peoples. Furthermore, they have failed to create an alternate military class from lower caste people (rather, they have exploited them to keep them poor and vulnerable. Shivaji created military class from peasants. When required use plaugh, otherwise use sword and bow & arrow. He was thus very successful against Mughals).So, Moplahs had sensed no danger from staying in India. It is the deviation of Kshatriyas in Southern India, that allowed the Moplah Jihad to be successful.

i am surprised at obsession of some on this site with gandhi.as far as i know gandhi , jinnah and nehru were almost similar people , all ambitious in their own way,gandhi's style being highly unorthodox.all were great actors and all used religion or religious symbols for their political elevation.gandhi aimed at something more vague or what some may call sublime , nehru and jinnah were more worldly.

i remember one conversation of jinnah reported in FRUS in which he invited US Ambassador to his governor general's yatch and then asked him if united states government would buy his house for the planned new states embassy in karachi.the ambassador politely declined saying he had selected another place.

as i understand from studying in about 15 schools in pakistan in 10 years no pakistani curriculum books propagated hatred against gandhi.yes nehru was projected as the political villain.

as i see for me there is no difference between chaudhry shujaat or any pakistani politician as compared to any indian politician.its all a farce . india was divided because of british policy and class interests and clash of ego.

To Majumder and Vengat...
Nobody claims Gandhi flawless. He was mediocre brain and thus failed in many fronts....
Pakistan had no reason to hate Gandhi...He had not supported partition...but post partition, he had not shown any enemity against Pakistan...

Re: # 106; HP

"another point of view!" that is rich.

If you have children, why don't you look at their curriculum now and in the last few years; oh right you can't, as you don't actually live in the Pakiland do you?

Gandhi and Congress hatred was and has been synonymous in Pakistan and still is; I speak with personal experience looking through the history (from YOUR POV) so misrepresented anywhere else!

Are you trying to tell me that children now are taught their history for the last 5-6000 years of civilisation (apart from the mention of Harappa and Moen jo Dero) or does history start with Mohammed Bin Qasim; get a grip on reality "from another point of view"!

Re: # 63
Dear Br. Madani
Aside from your overwhelming recommendation I was personally impressed having examined his publications for prospective reading at my own, however, I must say that if this masadi happens to be the one & same who authored those several books I cannot even think about a literate author of that level to act without any provocation in the manner this masadi has been acting.
Secondly, its very hard for me to perceive that reading the writing of an author who otherwise behaves in the manner this individual has been behaving while I had no direct communication with him up until he chose to use three & four letter words addressing my comments that were written in connection with another individual, I cannot accept that an author who chooses to write on such deep topics with the influence of Islam can be inflicting insults and calling names, as this action on part of anyone convinces me that they cannot convey the message.
I am sorry that I have lost all the regard for this person as I conventionally carry and extend to anyone addressing me.
I hope you will forgive me for having to post under the influence of feelings consequent to uncalled for attacks over and again by masadi.
May Allah bless all of us with peace, harmony and mutual regard for each other, and, forgive our shortcomings. ameen.
Thank you so much for taking the time to intercept for resolution.
Regards

#105 Posted by akcheema
"speaking as a Pakistani, hatred for Ghandhiji is part of our upbringing."

Speak for yourself! your parents might have taught you to hate some people. I don't know which school system you went to in Pakistan, The ones I attended didn't have a word of hate about Gandhi or anyone.

Perhaps in your world reading history from a certain pov tantamount to hate, not where I went to school.
Btw, if you read what they teach in Indian school system, then you will know where all that hate on display here comes from.

Maybe they were teaching you hate in IJT study groups!

You don't speak for every Pakistani so please refrain from this "we" Sh!t.

Majumdar bhai,

speaking as a Pakistani, hatred for Ghandhiji is part of our upbringing. By the same token, reverence for Jinah. Manto or anyone else, they can't think above that divide which is created very early on in life; same as people's ideas about religious belief etc.

You should spend some independent time by yourself in the country, talk to school kids as to what they get taught etc, it would be an eye opener. That is hardly a reason to give him the credit for being 'father' of anything!

What masadi says about Jinah is far closer to the truth than any of your other sources.

Cheers.

Re: # 102:
"
Btw why did they vote for him in the first place?
"
Islam is in danger! British sold ganja in China and political Islam in India. Subcontinental Muslims are still addicted to it. Our gandu is better than your Gandhi even though he represents crooks and criminals to make money.

Powerful west used crook coconuts who themselves were as foreign to the people whom they were supposed to represent as these coconut's master. The guy retired of all the places to UK. Proofs based on writing in Bennet Colman newspaper would be hard to find.

Are u guys paid to bs on this site.

Majumdar,

Lol....You are a 'last word freak'......

Anyway keep digging reasons to slur Gandhiji...Happy digging and don't try to bring the small stone too close to your eyes...It will make you feel as though the world has dissappeared...

Gotta go to the gym...

Regards,


Again, Jinnah was not as good a leader as Maulana Sahib...He was intimidated to see somebody from his own community to be more intelligent and a bigger leader amongst the mass...

I don't see much difference between Bhutto's daughter oops son and Jinnah...

Still you can have the last word...

Vengat,

(And after that?)

Pak was born. He continues to be revered as the Father of his Nation. And recently a survey indicated that over 40% Indians too give him high approval rating.

(Mpolahs and all other Muslims who chose to stay back... )

They stayed back it was impossible or if not difficult to leave. Btw why did they vote for him in the first place?

Regards

Ananth07,

Hong Kong?


Bye for the day...

The rest were swayed by the propounder of "Two Nation Theory". Not a single Muslim could have gone because of Jinnah...

Says who?

Mpolahs and all other Muslims who chose to stay back...

Re: # 96

"All colonial forces had to leave Asia..."

Why?

Re: # 95

Majumdar,

"And yet he won a landslide in 1946!"

And after that?

"No need to do that. The war of Indian independence was won on the streets of Paris, Berlin, Dunkirk et al."

All colonial forces had to leave Asia... after WW II. We should thank the Japanese for bringing and early end to uropean colonial rule.

Vengat,

(You are speaking about somebody who was not considered as a representative of the Muslims.)

Says who?

(He was a stooge for the British)

Proof?

(who had no popular backing)

And yet he won a landslide in 1946!

Regards

Re: # 93

Majumdar,

Great...You are speaking about somebody who was not considered as a representative of the Muslims. He was a stooge for the British who had no popular backing and I don't think Muslims of that day could have taken him for a leader...

"No need to do that. The war of Indian independence was won on the streets of Paris, Berlin, Dunkirk et al."

I am stumped...

Vengat,

(Who could have been the 'best lot of' the Muslims)

MAJ (pbuh)

(who would have undertaken the difficult task of fighting for independence on the streets...)

No need to do that. The war of Indian independence was won on the streets of Paris, Berlin, Dunkirk et al.

Regards

Re: # 91

Majumdar,

Who could have been the 'best lot of' the Muslims, who would have undertaken the difficult task of fighting for independence on the streets...

Vengat,

YLH has no intention to disparage Muslims in spite of being excommunicated from the faith. His objection to MKG is to the fact that he pandered to the worst lot within the Muslim community, a tradition which has been faithfully continued by INC since independence. This has done no one, Hindoo or Muslim any good.

Regards

Maju Anna,

Just because I don't end with 'regards', please do not assume that I have no regards for you. I have the highest regards for you :)...

Re: # 88

Majumdar,

I haven't interacted with Aisha boudi.

As far YLH I have told you the reason behind his vitriol against Gandhi :). Its his way to bash Muslims...Gandhi is just a decoy...Don't take him seriously...Everytime he speaks bad about Gandhi, he will invariably bring about Gandhi's himalayan blunder of supporting the Khilafat movement which lead to Moplah violence and describe in glory all the gruesome details of how Hindus were murdered by Muslims. His emphasis is like, "See wherever there is violence, one of the parties will be Muslims" :)...

Vengat,

Thanks for clarifying on Ranjit bhai and Kaal bhai. Now can you shed some light on the RSS roots of Yasser mian and Aisha boudi.

Regards

* it is not difficult to conclude Gandhi is a bad man as it is no different from Gandhi being called bad

it is not difficult to conclude Gandhi was a bad man as it is no different from Gandhi being called good.

Majumdar,

Kaal Bhai, I assume is from the Advaita school of thought, which rejects dualism. So, for him, good and bad represent the same thing and it is not difficult to conclude Gandhi is a bad man as it is no different from Gandhi being called bad...:)

Hamidm Saab, you have to be very careful with him...You know he loves to be oxymoronic...When he said Horrible Hindoos, you should have taken the hint...

Ranjit Saab, speaks his true emotions only when the topic veers to IITs...Apart from that he is content to live in UP , working on the icons...He is taking tuitions from our Salim Saab on humor...

Vengat

(but almost all of the haters/hate emanates from RSS. )

FYI,

Neither me nor Ranjit bhai nor YLH nor Aisha boudi are RSS members.

Regards

Vengat,

Re: 82

Why wud YLH want to subtly denigrate Muslims when it is alleged that he wants to become a minister in Pakistan? Btw the whole crux of his argument is not Muslims propensity to violence but MKG's refusal to condemn the same, in fact his tacit encouragement of the same.

Nkg,

A man who compromised with the worst elements among Islamic fundoosim maybe the hero of lots of people but cannot be the same of patriotic Hindoo Injuns (like me) or right thinking Pakis (like YLH)

Regards

Re: # 81

Nkg,

I don't contest the fact that one can be a good man, a moderate Hindu and an RSS member. I don't say all RSS members are Gandhi haters but almost all of the haters/hate emanates from RSS.

Re: # 79

Majumdar,

How can Gandhi manifest out of a "A mixture of reasons". Yes, the effect was gruesome and very damaging for the Hindus, no doubt but what was the single most deciding cause?

Manto's strategy to hit out at Muslims' proclivity to violence is to bash Gandhi and attribute Moplah violence to him, which essentially was a Muslim enacted saga. This is his way of subtly telling Muslims about their faults.

Re: # 76
Vengat...
This is the reason for the hatred unleashed by RSS type Hindus on Gandhiji here on Chowk.
Ans: Gandhi and RSS had enough mutual admiration... Gwalkar's indian socialism matches with that of Gandhi...

Re: # 73
Majumder...
(so called oppressed muslims will not be able to get rid of the problem is the path they follow. )

Ans: I am not supporting all actions of Gandhi. Khilafat movement, Mopallah carnage etc...may be few abberations... He was trying to appease muslims to stop sessionist movement (My point of bringing USSR and Yugoslavia is same. Pakistan was supposed to happen. Jinnah was just officiating that. Neither Jinnah was visionary not he had any quality, which can inspire people. Pakistan was bourne out of negative agenda. This negative thinking amongst muslims are ingrained in their value system ( courtesy Islam)). Gandhi was wrong in his assessment and understanding of Islam. Most probably his left hand Maulana Abul Kalam Azad had mislead him....Basic nature of his movement should not be misjudged by few abberations. He is not the first and last person to be the victim of islam (dishonesty and treachery). Bangladesh exploited all help from India and USSR and then within 2 years ditched the group and joined OIC(the very umbrella organisation, which opposed formation of Bangladesh) and now another Pakistan (slave of uncivilised arabs)....
Today if Jammu to Kanyakumari, Gujrat to Meghalaya/Tripura is happily under one country, Gandhi must be creadited for this (to large extent)...British had stiched the administration...

Vengat,

A mixture of reasons. Economic disputes plus religious bigotry.

(reason for the hatred unleashed by RSS type Hindus on Gandhiji here on Chowk.)

There are many people here who for various reasons oppose the G-man: Sanatani, YLH, Ranjit, Kaal bhai, myself, Hamidm to name a few. To the best of my knowledge of the whole lot only Sanatani can be described as a RSS-wallah.

Regards

*Mophlah's

Moplahs

Majumdar,

Now tell us why did the Horrible Moplah's murdered the Docile Hindus?...

Can you exposit the Karya (Cause) and Karana (Effect) of the Moplah violence?

Re: # 75

Cheemaji,

"unfortunately Gandhiji made far too many concessions for minorities, both of Muslim and Christian backgrounds."

This is the reason for the hatred unleashed by RSS type Hindus on Gandhiji here on Chowk.

Re: # 74; Majumdar bhai

I for one think that just because someone has written reams and reams of stuff about anyone has basically done nothing but contributed to the greenhouse phenomenon and added to the misery of this planet.

Surely, if they were of any academic value, we'd know about them outside the narrow confines of this obscure website.

I don't for one minute dispute what you said in your post; unfortunately Gandhiji made far too many concessions for minorities, both of Muslim and Christian backgrounds. The whole point I made to you on the subject before was that he did it out of being naive and sincere; MAJ on the other hand was an opportunist of the highest order. This man played us (Muslims) for a fool in the name of a theology he knew nothing about and created the mess that is ours to bear for eternity.

I shall say no more on the subject for now as I have to get back to work; I am sure this will attract enough attention from all sides to "thrash it out" as they say!

Cheers and Khuda Hafiz (sorry I don't know the Bengali for Good Bye).

P.S.: In the interest of sucking up to this arabised version of Islam, my compatriots have even replaced the word "Khuda - Persian for God" by "Allah"; supposedly the omniscient and ever-present God can't work out the motives of the speaker for himself! or may be more Brownie points for the Allah-worshippers!! That is the process of Isolation and Cultural purification that MAJ started in 1947; you seem like an educated person; rather than relying on others analyses, why don't you read widely yourself on the subject (i have always despised the idea of 'blind' faith in absolutely anything!!

Vengat,

(And please don't put all your eggs on Manto's bandying abilities. Majumdar's logic is if a dog barks at the sun, the sun and the barking dog are equals.)

Majumdar may be an illogical person but I assure you YLH is not. He has written reams and reams of stuff about MKG's karnamey- you may read the same and come up with a point by point rebuttal.

Regards

Nkg,

(Those who blame Gandhi for partition, should take note of Yugaslavia,USSR...Without Gandhi/MAJ these states disintegrated....)

The blame game was strated by Gandhians who accuse MAJ (pbuh) of dividing India. Since Yugo and USRR broke up without MAJ's intervention (as you have wisely noted) I hope you will not blame him for the partition of India.

(so called oppressed muslims will not be able to get rid of the problem is the path they follow. )

I hope you are aware that "oppressed Muslims" first jihad in the sub-continent was in Kerala the Moplah revolt where the Momins murdered, looted and forcibly converted many Hindoos. And your great hero MKG supported these Moplahs!!! I hope you too support the Moplahs and their successors all over the globe!

Regards

Re: # 71
Correction...

Those who blame Gandhi for partition, should take note of Yugaslavia,USSR...Without Gandhi/MAJ these states disintegrated....

Re: # 66
Vengat...
Till YLH came on scene gandhi was Gandhji

Ans: The greatest contribution of Gandhi towards humanity, I have already told, uniting India. The by product of his ahimsa is visible in South Africa, USA. Tibet had yet to yield result beacuse of geographical problem. Why Kashmir, Palestine, Checheniya, Afghanisthan, Iraq etc. so called oppressed muslims will not be able to get rid of the problem is the path they follow.
How can you blame Israel, when people of arab settlements fire Katyusa rockets towards Israeli settlements?
How can you blame Indian Govt. of oppression/HR violation, when the tribals looted raped people of Kashmir and murdered thousands of Pundits?
How can you blame Russia, when jihadis killed students in Beslan?
How can you blame US marines, when morepeople in Iraq is getting killed due to Shia/Sunni battle in Iraq?

Comparing MAJ with Gandhi is something limited in the domain of Pakistan and Bangladesh. MAJ is limited to a single event (1947). He is remembered whenever Pakistan/Bangladesh is in news, that is also for bad reason (terrorism). M K Gandhi is somebody universal and his path is something, which is not limited to freedom struggle in South Africa or India. Being role model for 3 Noble Lauriates ( Mandela, Martin Luthar King, Dalai Lama) is not mean job!!!
Those who blame Gandhi for partition, should take note of Yugaslavia,USSR...Without Gandhi/MAJ these states disintegrated from the parent country...

Ahmedmadani Saab,


Mahatma Gandhiji would not have had any qualms to be called Gandhi if it would make you and your progenies happy...

Cheema Saab,

Sorry, if I contributed to your misery...

Ahmedmadani Saab,

For me MKG/Gandhi/Gandhiji/Mahatma means the same. I see him with the same reverance. You know we have the habit of calling Gods irreverentially to make God(s) look one among us.

And please don't put all your eggs on Manto's bandying abilities. I believe Manto in his quest to sully the name of the Prophet, he has started throwing mud on the Mahatma expecting a gullible Hindu Indian to reciprocate by sullying the Prophet. I don't have to explain why he would do that.

Majumdar's logic is if a dog barks at the sun, the sun and the barking dog are equals.

Comparing Mahatma and Jinnah, What can I say...it doesn't even qualify to be called a Comedy...Manto's techniques of claiming victories are very well explained by Masadi Saab.


Jinnah, Tom, Dick, Harry and XYZ are all people without controversies...simply because they are/were fence-sitters...Just because Jinnah criticized Gandhi on certain decisions doesn't mean that he would not have chosen those paths if he were the decision maker...Even Muslims did not have faith in Jinnah's leadership abilities and his goodness.

Don't you see why he stresses on Jinnah's secular credentials when Jinnah himself did not believe in a unified secular India?

Now tell me if why Manto would not attack the Prophet for the lack of secular credentials. His problem is, he can neither have a venerable figure in the Prophet nor afford to attack him. In a way he tells all the Pakistani Muslims the importance of secular qualities by coating the medicine.

Re: # 66;Majumdar bhai
"MKG is today one of the most hated and discredited political character on chowk."

common Majumdar bhai! give us a break. You should know better than that I reckon

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(Till YLH came on scene gandhi was Gandhji )

You are right. Till Yasser came along, Gandhi was mislabelled Mahatma. But thanks to his writings MKG has been completely exposed as a Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigoted freak.

MKG is today one of the most hated and discredited political character on chowk. All thanks to Yasser!!!

Regards

Re: # 64
Ahmedmadani...
YLH? QAMA?
I am not follower of Gandhi...
He had adopted some of the ancient Indian philosophy (Upanishad - Satyameva Jayate etc...) which is core of Indian society.... During independence movement, he was the only leader, who had united India (Assam/Tripura to Tamilnadu/Kerala to Gujrat/Sindh...brought common people in Congress fold...the impact is even greater than Emperor Ashoka...It is definitely excellent achievement...

NKG and venkata.... Till YLH came on scene gandhi was Gandhji but after studying YLH and his selected works you will come to very differet conclusions. Its all peoples imagination and people wants heros and if not they create. Please study YLH impassionately, take out personal attacks etc. You will be following QAMA not M K Gandhi. Study of works of YLH will set you free .
Again suggestion

Re: # 61 Sir kindly read his books not comments about those books. Also please ignore ignorant and people who guard american policy line at any cost. Have you read Masadi? One needs to forget masadi but his thinking and commentry is refreshig and not copying from eli