Small Spies Must be Hanged , While Bigger Ones Prosper

what Gohar Ayub in glimpses from corridors of power states was sold by FIELD MARSHALL MANEKSHAW for a gardening set


Of course, if Ayub made that allegation, then it must be true...

considering how Maneckshaw's army got whipped in 71...

#1 Posted by arjun_5

Maneckshaw is a racist who looked down on the "darkies". For 71, most of the credit goes to others .... Jacobs, perhaps, being the most important. I wouldn't be surprised if Maneckshaw sold secrets.

Yes, maneckshaw showed some spine in NEFA .... but then the Chinese had already stopped.

#2 Posted by GT on March 27, 2008 11:32:06 am


I wouldn't be surprised


I would be surprised if your level of surprise had any bearing on altering reality.

How conveniently you suggest that, "Musharraf is a mean mortal." Did he steal from the homeland like the returning contractors of Pak politics? did he involve in any immoral acts such as Mustafa Khar?
Did he kidnap and later got married to a colleague's daughter as in the case of Mumtaz Bhutto & the daughter of Abdul Waheed Katpar? Did he drive a large format model of Mercedes Benz on the wrong side of the road while authorities watched as in the case of Asif Zardari anxious to kiss his bride while she was in a motorcade?
Did he steal from the nation's treasury and buy his wife diamond jewelry as in the case of Zardari & (late) BB?
Did he conspire to sell sugar on account of his personal business to India while Pak forces were engaged in Kargil as in the case of Nawaz Not-So-Sharieff.
It is rather easier for anyone to point fingers and blame others, while every one of us Pakistanis owe it to the homeland that the ask and question themselves as to what they took from Pakistan and what they gave the homeland.
We dont even have the decency to dispose our domestic trash appropriately, rather we sweep it out in the streets to imagine that our home is clean while we cause a nuisance for the image of our nation.
Until and unless everyone of us begins to assess themselves for their wrong doings and shortcomings this nation of ours will not straighten out.
The principle reason majority of people support a candidate to national offices is only to seek their aid for personal matters once they are elected. Aren't we all sly?
When there was Agartala conspiracy Sheikh Mujib went to jail and was under trial for treason, who campaigned for his release? wasn't it ZAB? When Sh. Mujeeb got majority vote who denied him the right to rule, wasn't it ZAB?
Who took over the power in Pakistan after demise of East Pakistan? and from whom? Wasnt it Gen. Agha M. Yahya Khan who declared war in a drunk state? wasnt it the same Yahya Khan who lost one of the two limbs of Pakistan? Wasnt it ZAB who took power after Yahya, wasnt it ZAB who ignored and took no action against the traitor Yahya who was having fun with General Rani the reknowned whatever from across the border towards East of Pakistan? if someone should have been hung publicly it is the traitor Yahya and it was ZAB's duty to the nation to carry out this punishment.

Re: # 5 izuber
For someone incessantly howling "sab se pehle Pakistan" he sure sold the nation short when he pushed through the NRO.
And look at what the beneficiries are telling him in return?

"lo voh bhi keh rahe haeN yeh bay naNg-o-naam hae
yeh jaanta agar to lutaata na ghar ko maeN"

#5 and #6: This is the standard propaganda line that Musharraf has been using for years in his war on Pakistan with the help of ethnic and religious fasicts. The Pakistan Awam has seen the actions of the dictator and his lying and deceiptful supporters, and thus seen through this standard propaganda line. And so they have inflicted a humiliating defeat on him through months of a historic freedom struggle that has inspired the nation.

but dont let this fact stop you from continuing to rant on as if nothing happened on February 18.

You losers are exposed for what you are before the people of Pakistan - condoners of the murders of peaceful protestors for the rule of law on May 12; supporters of a deceiptful self-obsessed dictator simply out of primtive tribal loyalties. You are lucky Pakistanis are not as spiteful as thankless little rats like you.

the 1971 war was as my friend and more than that a respectable Indian military analyst Ravi Rikhye says " India's Strategic Failure".India failed to knock out West Pakistan the centre of gravity ! While it created a new Muslim state which is far militarily stronger than what Pakistan had in former East Pakistan and can be quite hostile to India in the long run.Many Bangladeshi officers were my students in Armour School and I was surprised to note that they hated India.

About Musharraf's scams history will judge and as I understand the details will start emerging soon.

About Kargil its clear from 1999 that it was a faux pas and many false gallantry awards were awarded to many brigadier level officers.There was one case of a major level staff officer relieving himself , struck by a small stone on the forehead and awarded an SJ.Without Indian insistence Karnal Captain Sher Khan would never have got a Nishan in Haider.My source is a major from engineers corps sent personally by Lieut General Ziauddin to investigate the fiasco in 1999.

the crux of the matter is that while Indian Army is highly democratised no Pakistani officer or soldier has the right to appeal to a civil court.no pakistani politician has bothered to give this basic right to the army.Liaquat Ali Khan was the culprit who took this basic right away in 1951 at the time of Rawalpindi conspiracy.

No politician has bothered to ammend Official Secret Act 1923.

No judge has prosecuted any paki intelligence officer for torturing to death a civilian suspect.As a matter of fact every year between 20 to 200 civilians are tortured to death,mostly in Balochistan but also in all provinces .In most cases their report says heart attack and many are just secretly burried without a trace.

In India an army officer can go to any civil court while in Pakistan civilian prime ministers were pioneers in ensuring that army is deprived of basic rights.

If politicians liberate the army the top 2 % major generals and above the real black guards trade union of generals will be reduced to size by the army.

I hope someone advises the PPP to do it .This is a real test case.The Khalsa , army of the so called pure needs to be democratised.

Kargil-A Military Analysis

15 June 2003

A.H Amin

Source - ISI major from Corps of Engineers sent personally by DG ISI Lieut General Khwaja Ziauddin to investigate actual on ground situation in Karil Operation of 1999.This report was conveyed to the then PM Nawaz Sharif by the then DG ISI Lieut Gen Ziauddian.I interviewed the source in Karachi in 2002 where he was then serving.





Kargil stands as perhaps the final military effort on Pakistans part to settle the Kashmir dispute by military means.

Analysis has mostly centred around political aspects of the operation while the military aspects have been largely left to the imagination of the public.Lately it has been claimed that Kargil was launched to bail out Mujahideen as a last resort ! This is an insult to the memory of the Pakistani armed forces "Volunteers" who died in that Himalayan wasteland without a funeral and in circumstances of unimaginable misery !

Kargil operation cannot be understood unless the personalities and motives of the principal characters are examined ! Every action in history is the final culmination of a personality's self perception,ambition and subconscious as well as conscious urges.

In this context the Kargil operation was born out of two key factors ! One was the personality of general Pervez Musharraf and the second was the unceremonial manner in which Nawaz Sharif ousted General Jahangir Karamat Musharraf's predecessor army chief of Pakistan Army.

Musharraf as those who have served with him know which includes this scribe also has always been an intensely ambitious man ! One hallmark of his personality is that he wants to stand out as a great military commander ! Propelled by an enormous ego wherever he served he endeavoured to do something extraordinary ! However fate did not allow him the glory in battle which his other coursemates like shabbir sharif achieved ! In 1965 Musharraf was a subaltern in an artillery unit which saw little action apart from supporting operatiions by indirect fire ! The 16 SP unlike 3 SP which fired on Indian tanks with direct gunsights at Chawinda stayed in conventional artillery role ! In 1971 Musharrafs commando company was not involved in action ! Nevertheless Musharraf compensated for this lack of combat laurels by achieving laurels in army courses and in various command assignments ! His final opportunity came when he ascended to the post of army chief in a situation when the army was in a subservient position vis a vis the civilian head of state , something which was regarded by the military herarchy as worse than blasphemy !

The forced retirement of General Karamat by prime minister Nawaz Sharif was regarded as a personal defeat by the Pakistani military brass and by Musharraf who felt that he would be a far weaker army chief under a strong prime minister who had asserted civilian control over the military machine !

These two factors were the fathers of the Kargil operation ! Ambition accompanied by a perception that the Pakistani public must be convinced that the soldiers were better than politicians.

Kargil at the military level was the brainchild of three men i.e General Musharraf the army chief ,Aziz the then army Chief of general Staff and Mahmud the then corps commander 10 Corps ! Musharraf and Mahmud were motivated by intense ambition to achieve military glory and Aziz was motivated by his Kashmiri ancestry plus military ambition.The person they selected to execute the operation was again one distinguished by out of proportion ambition i.e Major General Javed Hassan , author of a book in 1990s that claimed that India was on its way to disintegration and in which mughal king Humayun was resurrected from the grave to fight at Second Battle of Panipat !

In November December 1998 just one month after Musharraf's elevation to the post of army chief volunteers were asked for at the army level for an operation in Kashmir ! Many thousand volunteered including both officers and men from various units !

At no stage did any Mujahideen enter Kargil ! This is a piece of fiction and has no veracity !



These were attached to NLI units in the 80 Brigade sector for training.The principal idea of the plan was to infiltrate four battalions of NLI (Northern light Infantry) stationed in 80 Brigade Sector into Kargil Heights overlooking and dominating the Srinagar Ladakh road the lone Indian link with the Siachen and Leh Sectors ! The idea being to cut the lifeline of Indian supplies to Leh and Siachen Sectors ! Indian held heights in Kargil were to be occupied in February 1999 while Indian infantry had abandoned these heights at the approach of winter snow as an annual routine since 1948.In occupying the heights no fighting was involved ! The real issue was that of supplying Pakistani troops holding these heights which was far more difficult from the Pakistani side than from the Indian side !

Plans were kept secret and even the Commander 10 Corps Engineers of was not allowed to enter the Operations Room in 10 Corps Pindi.

The distance involved in reaching the heights varied from 15 to 35 kilometres from Pakistan side over mountains as high as 13 to 19,000 feet .To do this each battalion was divided into two parts , one acting as porters taking supplies forward and one half occupying the heights .

The heights were occupied as per the plan but the four units while doing so were severly exhausted ! In March-April the Indians discovered the Pakistani presence and reacted severely ! Severe fighting continued till July once the Indians finally re-captured the heights after Pakistani troops had been left to the mercy of Indian artillery and overwhelming troop concentrations as a result of the Blair House Accord !

A brief military examination of the plan reveals following weaknesses.(1) Failure to assess strategic repercussions of the operation at geopolitic and national strategic level .(2) Logistic failure in incorrect appreciation of supplying the troops . (3) Failure to understand that by occupying the heights the Indians were driven into a corner and had no choice but to retaliate , not for glory as was the Pakistani military's case but for pure military survival . (4) At a more subtle level the use of the Chora-Batalik Sector as a future spring board for Pakistani operations against India was sealed since Indians heavily fortified this sector for any future war.

The Pakistani planners failed to assess that war as an instrument of policy is no longer in vogue at the international level and their temporary military success would only bring greater international censure and a negative war mongering image without any corresponding military gain at the strategic level.

This scribe interviewed a former commander of FCNA and 10 Corps about logistics and General Imtiaz Warraich replied as following :--

" We initiated this operation but failed to support it with comprehensive operational planning and above all buildup for essential logistic support without which no operation can succeed"......'" the principal reason for our heavy casualties and lack of progress was unimaginative and callous logistic operations to support the units".

At one point the sepoys who had volunteered to fight and had come from many other infantry units to the NLI units refused to act as porters carrying supplies over 15 kilometres and were so exasperated that they defied Javed Hassan's personal orders in unit durbars to carry supplies and when Javed Hassn threw his cap on the ground threatened to march over it unless they were not employed as porters ! One such volunteer told this scribe that we had volunteered to fight ,not to act as porters ! The same fact was also mentioned in ISI chief Ziauddin Butt's secret report to Nawaz Sharif prepared by an Engineer officer on Zia's staff in ISI !

The failure to assess the "Enemy" factor was another strategic planning failure at the highest level .I asked General Warraich this question and he stated " Capture of Kargil Heights would totally stop all Indian movement to Leh and Ladakh Sectors unlike Pakistan in Siachen and Indians had no option but to do and die " !

Lust for glory and honour in battle are perfectly reasonable aspirations as long as they are accompanied by commensurate military talent in the generals who are at the helm of affairs ! This was sadly lacking in the Musharraf team who planned the operation. Their egos were many times larger than their real military talent !

By promoting an intensely ambitious man to the rank of army chief Nawaz did a favour which could only be repaid by betrayal ! The plan was based not on sound military reasoning but on burning ambition and an unrealistic desire for glory by men far away from the heat of battle ! No one above major level died , yet in a report to the military secretarys branch Javed Hassan recommended retiring 75 % of officers involved in the operation below colonel level !

The prime minister was not fully briefed because of ulterior motives ! Had the operation succeeded it would have been projected as a proof of Musharraf's Napoleonic brilliance and if it failed as it did Nawaz Sharif would have been made the scapegoat !

The operations planners were distinguished neither by loftiness of thought,nor audacity in the conduct of battle athe operational or strategic level.Thus boldness at tactiacl level was sacrificed because of operational and tactical timidity at the highest level.

No one appreciated that the army men who were employed , and it is a fiction that there was a single Mujahid in Kargil , had flesha nd blood ! These men mourned by a few hundred families were sons husbands fathers and brothers !

The Kargil operation at the military level is a watershed ! Idealism that propelled many hundred to die in those Himalayan wastes is buried for good ! Now there is a new breed which dominates the army ! The ones who aim at going on lush UN secondments or to KESC,WAPDA or as well paid consulatants !

What can one conclude ! It was the human heart that failed in Kargil and this heart which failed was housed in the ribcage of men sitting in the GHQ and not on the rocky pinnacles of Kargil ! Once the supply lines were closed under Indian threat of a counter attack , these brave men all Pakistan Army regulars were abandoned to die , pounded by artillery fire , bayoneted by overwhelming numbers , weakened by starvation ! Who can hear their cries ! Our ears are covered with heaps of lies ! Truth died at Kargil ! What remains is a body guard of lies!

By agreeing to ceasefire Yahya Khan saved West Pakistan.That was the poison pill that he swallowed.He was not tried because ZAB did not want to further demoralise the army.

The interconnection between the internal and
external fronts. The basis of defence and stability of a country is absolute harmony and in consonance with the internal and external fronts. The internal front means ‘morale of the civilian population’ ‘their belief in the legitimacy and moral credibility of the political government’ ‘belief in national aims and ideology of the country’ ‘identification with the Armed Forces of the country as defenders of the country’s integrity’ etc etc. External front includes the country’s Armed Forces, and its foreign policy. A country’s defence is based on both and any weakness in one will weaken the other. This inter-relationship was ignored by Pakistan’s civilian and military leadership during the period 1947-71. The Muslim League was initially dominated by a partnership of refugees from Muslim minority provinces and later by a combination of Punjabi Muslims and civil-military bureaucrats. The Bengalis were alienated first because of the National language issue and later because of the constitutional representation issue. The Bengalis were initially patriotic and only demanded linguistic equality and had even agreed to political parity in 1956. This arrangement was seriously disturbed once Ayub usurped political power in 1958. Immediately after independence the founder of the nation Mr Jinnah made an attempt to broaden the army’s recruitment base by ordering the raising of the East Bengal Regiment in 1948. This was a purely political decision taken by Mr Jinnah and implemented by a British C in C. By December 1948 two battalions of this unit composed of Bengali Muslims had been raised. This process was, however, discontinued once Ayub Khan an intellectually naive and tactically timid man became the Pakistan Army’s C in C in 1951. Ayub was biased against having Bengalis in the army. During his tenure an unwritten policy of not raising any more Bengali infantry battalions was followed. Ayub also retired the most promising Bengali officer Major General Majeed soon after taking over. The East Bengal Regiment was limited to two units and the expanded Pakistan Army remained a largely Punjabi dominated army. The irony of the whole affair was the fact that during this entire period all the army chiefs were non-Punjabi! In any case this was the first serious negation of the concept of having a national army. The Army was on the other hand firstly viewed as a Punjabi Army in the East Wing. Secondly and far more worse; it was viewed as an organisation designed primarily for the defence of the West Wing. The 1965 war further convinced the Bengalis that the army was not a national army but one designed to defend the West Wing. Thus from 1965 the rift between the internal and external fronts became much wider and the army was increasingly viewed as a foreign entity in the East Wing. The seeds of the events of 1971 were laid during the Ayub era. The Bengali populace viewed the federal government as a neo colonial government with its political base in the West Wing. The Army was increasingly viewed as a coercive instrument which was aimed at perpetuating the West Wing’s political and economic exploitation of the East Wing. By 1971 Pakistan’s ‘Internal Front’ was seriously eroded and this in turn greatly weakened its external front.





Ironically the political situation that the Pakistan Army inherited was created once the West Pakistan Civil servants and the then army C in C had ganged up in the period 1951-58 to keep the much despised Bengali in his place! The civilians did well in creating the 1956 Constitution which solved all major political problems of Pakistan. The politicians were, however, never allowed to implement this constitution since its implementation through holding of a general elections in 1959 may have led to a East Bengali victory, thus seriously reducing the civil-military dominance of Pakistani politics. Thus martial law was imposed in 1958 to avoid a general election! Ironically the army finally saw the light of the day a bit too late once a martial law was imposed in 1969 to hold a general election ! The tide of history in these 11 years had become irreversible! Strategic insight could at best have averted total humiliation! But there was no strategic insight since Ayub Khan had ensured from 1950 to 1969 that no strategic insight should be groomed and cultivated!

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Amin sahib,

Quite a few Indian army officers have been court-martialed or imprisoned for HR violations in Kashmir and NE. What has been the track record in Pakistan. Have action been taken against officers for violations in Karachi, B'stan, Gilgit or NWFP/FATA either during military rule or in civilian administration.

Regards

Small Spies Must be Hanged , While Bigger Ones Prosper

Ans: This is base rule of any political game...Chess was invented to formaulate war strategies...Pawns are sacrificed first (even sometimse deliberately to save Queen)....
Kargil war was kind of intelligence failure from Indian Govt. Mr. George Fernendes is a socialist. He was Minister of Defence!!! AVB is stupid, so is Advani....
India sufferred heavy casualty initialy due to wrong perception. Later with the help of AF they have paid back some stuff to Pakis...That is the time, instead of Clinton successfully put AVB and Nawaz under negotiation table, Indian armed forces had shown no restraint...

#8 Posted by pavocavalry on March 27, 2008 9:32:39 pm


Without Indian insistence Karnal Captain Sher Khan would never have got a Nishan in Haider.


Are you serious? You gotta be kidding me...

Wah Wah.....these bootlickers do have their brains in their boots.
What load of BS.and these Paki guys lap it up?? Amazing!!

Re: # 17

LADDU!

Take a break sir.

Mr. Amin, the Pakistanis know it and the Indians know it better. The question is how do we get rid of this Lutera Brigade when the usurious puppet-masters have the nation by its (CHOWK editor: Mr. Tahir means: 'a sensitive part of the male anatomy')?

Let's start with suggesting what to do with this rat-pack that proudly acknowledges its links with the past and present colonists?

Regards.

re: arjun_5

I remember this incident well. Read this has a bit of Pakistani exaggeration but generally what I have heard.

Regards,

Faruk

http://www.geocities.com/menofvalor2001/karnalsherkhan.html

Karnal Sher Khan (1970 - 1999)
29 yrs, Captain, 12 Northern Light Infantry (NLI), 27 Sind
Nishan-e-Haider (1999)
Pakistan

by Nasir M. Khan

Note: The following account is a well researched work by the author. It is not endorsed by the Governments of either India or Pakistan. Pakistan government denies that it had any involvement in the Kargil Operation, whereas the Indian government denies that any heroic battle took place at Tiger Hill. The reader is to read this article as the work of an individual and not an official citation. The reader also has the right NOT to believe this article. However, the article has been put up primarily becuase in the political game between Pakistan and India, a man who was the epitome of bravery is not getting due respect. The locations in this article are those which are claimed as true by India only.

Background
The background information is reproduced from the story of Lalak Jan since both died in the Kargil Operation
In 1984, India occupied the Pakistani posts at Siachen glacier. These posts had been vacated due to winters and snowing in the northern areas of Pakistan. India had in fact violated the Line of Control (LOC) in order to capture these posts. Pakistan's efforts to take these areas back from Indian possession turned out to be futile, and a war was fought in the worst possible circumstances for 15 years without any significant reward to either side.

The Indians posted an entire Division at Siachen Glacier. The ammunition and food was supplied to this division through the Srinagar-Leh Highway, the road joining the area of Leh (Siachen) with the capital of Jammu and Kashmir, Srinagar. The area surrounding the road was mountainous, with Tiger Hill being the peak that offered the best view of the entire northern area, providing those who were on it with a terrific aerial advantage. The Indian had previously used this peak to attack some defensive positions of Pakistan from time to time. Tiger Hill, located in the associated sectors of Batalik, Kargil and Drass, provided and aerial view of the Srinagar-Leh Highway. In September 1998, the posts had been vacated by India as part of a routine winter exercise, they were to reoccupy them in the summers.

In May 1999, a small sized Indian force of 4 men going along the Srinagar-Leh Highway lost contact with the rest of the army. A section, comprising 12 men was sent on the same road to locate the MIAs (Missing In Action). These 12 men also became MIA.

A small force (1200 men) of the Pakistan Army had occupied the vacated Indian posts, and were planning to hold on for sometime so that the Division at Siachen would have no other option but to retreat, due to the lack of ammunition and food supplies.

The Indians launched a full fledged attack on the small band of Pakistan Army soldiers.

Main Achievement
The Tiger Hill Complex is a set of six strategic posts; the Tiger Hill Top, Western Spur, Eastern Spur, India Gate, Rocky Knob and Helmet. If the Indian account is to be believed, Captain Karnal Sher Khan was responsible for setting up and defending one of these posts. On the other hand, the Pakistani account states that Sher was responsible for setting up forward defensive posts around the Gultari and Mushkoh Valley areas in Kargil, and that he had nothing to do with Tiger Hill. This article is based on the Indian account. In any case, the actual location does not matter as will be seen in the remainder of this article. From Indian readings, it appears that Sher was in fact defending the post on the Western Spur. The truth, however, will never be known. The active participation of the Kashmiri Freedom Fighters in the Tiger Hill battles is, however, a well researched fact.

Tiger Hill Top was the most strategic post at Kargil. This was the highest peak overlooking the Srinagar-Leh Highway. Although there were other active posts from where the Indian supply lines to Siachen glacier could be cut as well, Tiger Hill Top was the most effective. For the protection of Tiger Hill Top, the Pakistani soldiers and Kashmiri Freedom Fighters occupied the five other posts in the Tiger Hill complex. The most important was the Western Spur post, which had to be neutralized in order to launch any sort of infantry offensive on the Tiger Hill Top post.

The task of isolating the Western Spur post was given to the Indian 8 Sikh Regiment (800 - 1000 men). Later on, this regiment also participated in the capture of Tiger Hill Top. The task of bombarding this post was given to the Indian 41 Field regiment (a full field unit with massive heavy artillery capability).

Manning the Western Spur post was Captain Karnal Sher Khan with 21 ORs (Other Ranks, men who are ordinary sepoys and do not hold any specific rank).

From 26th June to 27th June, the 41 Field Regiment excessively shelled the Western Spur post with no less than 19 Howitzers, while the Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 jets flew sorties over the post and pounded the bunkers with laser guided bombs. Under these circumstances some infantrymen from 8 Sikh also fired at the posts held by Sher and his men, and 'dared them to recite the Kalima, for it will be their final one'. Obviously, the Pakistanis and the Kashmiris did not get any sleep during this time.

It was around 9:00 PM on the 27th of June 1999 that the 8 Sikh launched a fierce attack on the Western Spur post. The tired 'intruders' tried to fight back, but the sheer number of the Indians (450 - 500 men) along with the IAF and Artillery support made it impossible for them to hold on. There were not many casualties on either side, but as far as Karnal Sher's men were concerned, there didn't have to be many, as they were not great in number to start with.

Karnal Sher finally retreated from the post, going to a point of lower elevation. The Indians had gotten hold of the Western Spur post. They were in a terrific position to launch the final offensive on the other posts, especially the Tiger Hill Top.

Karnal Sher was in a terrible spot. The Indians were now at an elevated position; they were much greater in number and had the support of a much bigger artillery. Unlike Sher's men they were well rested, as the enemy did not subject them to intense fire and they also had no shortage of ammunition or food.

One of Sher's men had died during the attack. Most of the others were wounded. To top it all, some Sikh soldiers were still daring them to come out and recite their final Kalima.

One of Karnal Sher's men asked him about what they were supposed to do next.

"Counter Attack", replied Sher

The stunned man gazed at Sher. Counter Attack under the circumstances was suicidal. The Indians had an advantage in every thinkable manner. They had also been fortifying their defense ever since they had taken the Western Spur.

"Counter Attack?", the man asked Sher again.

"Yes counter attack. The Indians attacked my post at night, with heavy artillery and air support. I will attack them in broad daylight with the men that I have left."

Sher had been operational in the area since November 1998. He knew the Drass Sector area inside out. He had a good idea of the positions that could be taken for an attack on the Western Spur. The 8 Sikh Regiment had not utilized any of those areas in their attack, hence Sher took the chance they were not well aware of their existence. During the night he placed his men in those positions, strategically placing the compact artillery that they had in the optimum areas.

The counter attack, with 21 men, was launched on the Indians occupying the Western Spur. Sher's men were told never to stay in on position while attacking, and the positions that every man was to move to and from during the attack were also identified. Every one of Sher's men was changing position to no less than 8 places.

This was the shortest battle of the entire Kargil operation, taking no more than one hour. There were many reasons for its success. First of all was the deployment. As an Indian soldier would be killed, the others would direct fire towards the area from where the fire came from. In the mean time however, the Pakistani/ Kashmiri would have changed his position to another area where he was safe from the Indian firing but still could see them.

Secondly, the Indians were not expecting an attack from the positions where Karnal Sher had deployed his men. Had they known about them in advance, they would have placed their own men over there as a defensive measure.

The third was the timing of the attack. It came at the most unexpected time, only 7 or 8 hours after the Indian offensive.

Finally, there was the sheer ferocity of the attack. Sher's men knew before going into the attack that they are going in for an impossible task. They had no fear of death, and that itself makes a better fighter during any battle.

As the 8 Sikh regiment began to retreat, Kernal Sher left his position and came out in the open. He started reciting the Kalima aloud. Picking up his machine gun he started charging towards the retreating forces.

"Cowards!" he said, "Where are you running off to? I will not let you run away like this."

Sher's remaining men, having suffered some casualties while they were ascending the Western Spur post, finally managed to reach on top. They replaced the Indian Flag with the Pakistani one and started chanting slogans of 'Allah O Akbar'. Sher, on the other hand, was obsessed with the retreating forces.

"I am reciting the Kalima as you had dared me to." he shouted, "Where are you running off to? Stop and fight. Make this my last Kalima if you can". While saying this he was seen running after the retreating troops, firing at will, with little or no opposition except from the ongoing artillery shelling. 10 or 12 of Sher's men, who had taken up positions on the Western Spur, also opened havoc wreaking fire on the retreating troops to add to their woes.

Captain Karnal Sher followed the Indian troops until he reached the proximity of the 8 Sikh Regiment base camp.

Most of the men who had retreated from the Western Spur had come back to the base camp. The base camp already had around 300 to 400 soldiers. When the commanding officer was given the news of the counter attack at the Western Spur post, he radioed back to the Indian intelligence and cursed them for letting him believe that there were only 20 odd men in the area. He told them that at least a company strength (150 men) of militants had just attacked and retaken the Western Spur post.

One of the soldiers told the Commanding officer that the enemy commander was following them down. The CO told the man not to worry as one man would not dare enter the base camp. However, he was anticipating that a much larger party of militants would attack the base camp. He ordered his men to take the necessary defensive positions.

While the 8 Sikh soldiers were taking their defensive positions, they were greeted with the sound of 'Allah O Akbar' followed by intense machine gun fire on those areas where any movement was taking place.

Anticipating a company sized attack, the CO was stunned to see one man, reciting the Kalima aloud, charging towards the center of the camp.

"Come out cowards!" Captain Sher shouted having reached the center, "I will show you how to fight a battle".

Angered by the dare inside their own camp, two Sikh soldiers tried to attack Sher. Their attack was of no avail; the captain, who had started firing in their direction the moment they tried to move, killed both.

It was apparent that this was not an attack by a complete company, but by only one man. "You are surrounded from all sides " the CO shouted to Sher, "There are no men with you. You cannot possibly kill us all. There does not have to be any unnecessary bloodshed. Lay down your weapon and Surrender".

Sher fired in the direction of the Commanding Officer's voice. "I would rather die than to surrender to you" he said. While trying to continue firing, Sher realized that the ammunition in his machine gun had finished.

Seeing that he no longer had any ammunition, the Indian soldiers, including their CO, came out in the open and showed Sher that he was indeed surrounded from all sides. They started moving closer and closer to him, tightening their circle around him.

"Look around yourself" he said to Sher, "There is nothing more that you can do".

Sher looked around. There were more than fifty men who had surrounded him and could shoot him at point blank range. Instead of giving up, he started reciting the Kalima aloud once again. Seeing that the closest to him was the CO, he charged him and pushed him back by hitting him on the head with his empty machine gun. Seeing that Sher was not surrendering, and was in fact going to attack him for the second time, the 8 Sikh regiment Commanding Officer told his men to open fire on the militant.

The 8 Sikh regiment soldiers opened fire on Captain Sher. Hit many times, he tried to attack the CO for the third time, but of no avail.

Sher had always believed in not dying at the enemy's feet. He was about five feet away from the CO, who could see the desperate attempt Sher was making in not to fall down. Finally, Sher sat down, with his knees bent and touching the ground, and his machine gun still in his hand. The Kalima that he had been reciting so far became lower and lower in volume until it finally stopped. Captain Karnal Sher Khan had died.

Some of the Sikh soldiers became ecstatic that they had indeed made the 'intruder' recite his final Kalima. Two of them ran to Sher Khan's body to kick it from a sitting position into a one where his head was touching the ground.

Seeing the intent of his men, the CO ordered them to stop. He told them that this was a brave man and his body should not be desecrated at any cost. He ordered that Sher's body be brought back to Srinagar rather than being left at Tiger Hill. Upon finding out that Sher was a Pakistani Captain, he made sure that Sher gets a proper military treatment from the Indians. It was he who wrote the citation of Captain Sher, recommending him for the highest gallantry award in Pakistan. The citation can be found at Captain Sher Khan's residence in Fajounabad Charbagh, Swabi.

The government of Pakistan awarded Captain Karnal Sher Khan with Nishan-e-Haider, the country's highest gallantry award.

Further Developments
The 8 Sikh Regiment launched a massive attack at the Western Spur on the night of 3rd and 4th of July 1999. The Indians used eight 155mm Bofors howitzers and one MBRL (multi-barrel rocket launcher) at Western Spur in a direct firing role. No less than 5321 rounds were fired at the massive mountain in the next 10 hours. Milan anti-tank missiles were also pressed into the operation. The 8 Sikh soldiers advanced only after they were sure that the bunkers had been completely cleared. This time there was no 'Last Kalima' dare. Expecting to find some 100 or so bodies of the 'company' that had attacked them a week ago but seeing only 10 bodies on the post, the Indians assumed that all the others had ran away!.

After this was the task of capturing the Tiger Hill Top post. Details of that can be read in the story of Lalak Jan.

peonofthewest: you mean, sir, that the emperor cavalryman has no horse, sir? just like general ataturk has no uniform, sir?

Re: # 21

tahmeed saab, you are very clever man saab

salam

Peon of the West

Re: # 8

Pavo

{India failed to knock out West Pakistan the centre of gravity !}

According to official files and papers released by the US, India's next target was West Pakistan and the military objective was to cut the country into half. It was US official interference by way of communicating their concerns to Indian and Russian government with the added threat of Seventh fleet that prevented Indian plans. These facts can be verified through the official transcripts released by US govt.

{While it created a new Muslim state which is far militarily stronger than what Pakistan had in former East Pakistan and can be quite hostile to India in the long run.}

Stop living in the past Pavo jee, times are changing and its in our interest to have friendly neighbors.

Re: # 7

tahmed32

Instead of making intelligent, health criticism backed by evidence you have failed to refute the charges leveled against the politicians. More importantly, one of the corner stones for democracy is freedom of expression and tolerance of the other viewpoint, that too you have failed to demonstrate. What is the difference between a dictator who refuses to acknowledge diversity of opinion and a free commentator who refuses to accept the failings of their own doings, not much as far as Iam concerned. Both are guilty of the same crime with a one difference, military dictator is easily condemned while the politicians are allowed tremendous amount of leeway under the guise of popularly acceptable norm "democracy is not perfect".

Pavo,
You write:

"The basis of defence and stability of a country is absolute harmony and in consonance with the internal and external fronts."

This scares me and I posit it is the basic cause of turmoil within a country. What is ABSOLUTE HARMONY? What do you do when there is disharmony? Get rid of "the other" who cause this "disharmony". It is very important for people in the sub-continent to understand that there will be disharmony amongst different cultural/ideological groups. The name of the game is to channel this disharmony into a force that leads to grogress, for disharmony is exactly that which disturbs stagnation. How does one do that?

1. Violence and military action, romantic as they may be, simply tries to induce A stable ideology over time. The suppression of other ideas through fear simply means that the ruling ideas get outdated in a changing world till it is very late. So violence is out.

2. Simple democracy, with freedom of expression and non-coercion of alternative ideas, has a similar problem in the sense that the majority constantly suppresses the minority. However, it is slightly better as alternative ideas can at least be freely thrown about. For this, of course, tolerance is essential. Since by nature we are intolerant we have to tie ourselves to the post, like Ulysses faced with sirens, in protecting the RIGHT of others to OPPOSE, be it the suave upper class or members of LMP. We have to tie our hands such that we fail to strike at DISHARMONY.

3. Even the above does not help very much if decision making is CENTRALIZED. For example a 50.1% majority may turn out to universally dominate a 49.9% minority. The situation can be improved slightly if power is decentralized, to start with - at least geographically. Various other methods of decentralization also exist - like secularism, non-interference in cultural norms, the right to "bear arms against the state" etc. These have been extensively debated in chowk.

I end with an example; the Hamid, HP view that "mullahism" should not come to power at any cost, would clearly violate what I put forth above. The basic motto should be "In humans we trust".

rf786 writes "Both are guilty of the same crime with a one difference, military dictator is easily condemned while the politicians are allowed tremendous amount of leeway under the guise of popularly acceptable norm "democracy is not perfect". "

There is another big difference that you overlook in the Pakistani context, the politicians operate under the shadow of military overlordship not only during martial law but at all times, therefore what they do or do not do is circumscribed by military parameters- on the other hand, the military in most domestic affairs except for the few where the colonials overshadow them, operate quite independantly. Therefore blame goes more to their illegal power than to the transgressions of the politicians whose doings reflect a weakened political institution (and not merely individuals), that is made weak and unaccountable to the people due to interference by the military- an institution made strong due to external (and mostly colonial) reasons...I hope that is not beyond the comprehension of your "cops and robbers" analysis, that people knowing nothing about society and its setup often partake in......

g'night

#25 continued ...

The biggest challenge to what I posit in #25 is something like the following:

"OK, all that is dandy but the mullahs will come to power and dismantle democracy".

I agree that this is a very strong critique. But let me hasten to point out that EVERYONE, repeat EVERYONE, who comes to power democratically will have an incentive to curb democracy such that OTHERS do not come to power. I cannot rule out this option by proposing a logical mechanism. Here I have to go ahead on the basis of my belief (assumption): "In humans we trust".

#20 Posted by Faruk on March 28, 2008 5:59:25 am

I read the whole piece and it's credibility is between zero and the number the hindooos invented..

Re: # 7 tahmed32

bhala dekho to panjab ne kitni taraQQi kar li hae?

The age for "saThiaana" is normally pegged at saaTh;
hence the word.

Now, in an unparalled feat of achievement, some in Punjab can do it at 32. Mubarak, and best wishes for getting a patent on this.

Also don't forget bout the Guiness book of world records.

Re: # 7 by tahmed
Back to square one, "You are what you speak", this is exactly what justifies the absence of a democratic system in Pakistan, inflicting personal insults, being disregardful to others, i.e. prevailing in an anti-social state. It takes a lot to carry out a conversation, but that is for the civilized societies other than such typical Pakistanis who chose to indulge in a personal level of squabble, those who do not know how to engage in a conversation and be able to agree to disagree.
Until majority of such a nation learns to carry out a civilized conversation while holding on to their ground and debating their point, no matter what, democracy will not and cannot exist or prevail in Pakistan. The only thing that works is based on the theory of might is right and it is so evident like daylight.
It is therefore highly recommended that those interested in a democratic system should first learn to spell democracy.

Re: # 24

rf786
I should have read a little more before posting my comments, that would have definitely saved ink & paper for chowk that I spent by posting mine.
I thought I am the only odd one who is being a paranoid and believes in mutual regard, a civil attitude and coexistence to be some of the pillars among others to securely hold the roof of democracy in place, but your post definitely provides fortification to my thoughts and while I second your opinion on the methods & practices of some less than civilized members of society samples of which we often come across here in the Chowk, I would like to say -Ditto- to support call for reasonableness as stated in your post.
Thank you so much for holding a civilized demeanor & posture even when dealing with below the belt attacks of those who chose might is right principle and adopt it as their method of democracy.

Izuber writes "Until majority of such a nation learns to carry out a civilized conversation while holding on to their ground and debating their point, no matter what, democracy will not and cannot exist or prevail in Pakistan"

By this Izuber means that he can lie and use all kinds of BS tactics to discredit his opponent and the opponent should just sit tight and not call a spade a spade because that would be "might is right"- when words are responded to with words there is no might is right involved, it is involved in the censorship practiced by chowk staff, the kind of censorship that you defend...hypocrite

#11 Posted by pavocavalry
"By agreeing to ceasefire Yahya Khan saved West Pakistan.That was the poison pill that he swallowed.He was not tried because ZAB did not want to further demoralise the army."

Who were those that appeared to be uniformed officers in Military attire of Generals that fought with each other and drew guns at Karachi airport at the return of ZAB from UNO as they placed him in power?

Demoralize someone without morality !! sounds strange and out of place, at the outset when Yahya's declaration of war was broadcast on the radio & TV, that animal was already in a drunken state as he uttered some arabic from the scripture.

I still recall the day when Karachi TV during ZAB's era mistakenly placed a recording of Yahya's broadcast on air some over 1-2 years later after the fall of Dhaka and within moments angry citizens were found instantly protesting at the gates of Pak TV and this was after the nightfall.

He should have been instantly deprived of breathing further that very moment, but, that is subject to how sober the generals that were surrounding him at the time were, that took orders from him. Not to mention who was "Aqleem Akhter Rani"? that question still remains open for an answer from qualified individuals with understanding of Yahya era.
Pavocavalry no matter what, I like the way you write without being disgraceful to other commentators who may chose to differ from your point of view.

Re: # 33
Masadi you are a paranoid and there is no cure for your disease because you were born without any grace and expected to leave without any as well.
Your attitude is also reflective of an influence of "Mossad" it is no surprise you happen to act synonymously.
It is most possible that Chowk administration smells that stink of Mossad when you are around and choses to restric or limit the amount of oxygen you should receive.
Too bad you cant be called a cry baby although you find every opportunity to attack those who don't say ameen at your utterances.
Those who call others "hypocrite" are definitely an experienced one, while if you are a muslim and label another believer hypocrite, if you had any positive points to cash in in the hereafter you have transferred those to whom you transgress, "if" you have any good deeds you are urged to keep transferring those to my account no matter what you wish to label me.

Izuber writes "Masadi you are a paranoid and there is no cure for your disease because you were born without any grace and expected to leave without any as well.
Your attitude is also reflective of an influence of "Mossad"...."

After having my articles censored baselessly for over a year I am labeled as "paranoid" for inquiring why this censorship is practiced, and this fool, who talks about discourse is more than happy to have them banned by labelling me "Mossad"- wonder how this shrink came up with that assessment, maybe he hasn't read my articles and ideas regarding the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Now if he even had a tenth of what I have contributed and offer to chowk maybe he could come up with some counterarguments instead of labelling me CIA or Mossad- completely baseless BS because my exposure of a system both of them want to maintiain puts me in their bad books, I bust the mythology of those who fund such organizations and those who are peons of them like you a-hole....One does not have to have had experience being a hypocrite to recognize hypocrisy coming from those like you who say one thing and advocate another. Picking holes in the arguments of idiots like you is what I have experience in...

Palestinian/Israeli conflict: article can be accessed at http://israel.rationalreality.com
for those who are interested...

Like most mullah, Izuber is on a good deed slot machine, every post I make drops more "good deeds" into his bucket-cching!! How can one argue with those having a mentality of retards like this who want to end all discourse by saying it adds to my good deeds and takes away from yours and then he talks about "civilized discourse"! while using all tricks in the book to end the discourse and promote censorship of my articles by Chowk Staff by labelling it "Mossad"- as if that is a lesser expletive than a-hole. I think not....

Re: # 26

masadi

{There is another big difference that you overlook in the Pakistani context, the politicians operate under the shadow of military overlordship not only during martial law but at all times,}

Incorrect assumption. And, I agree with your stated thesis that Pak army shares bulk of the responsibility.

{...therefore what they do or do not do is circumscribed by military parameters-}

Are these politicians juveniles or mentally retarded that they cannot have adult opinions? Here lies the problem. Are we to believe that the Pak Army is forcing these politicians to be corrupt? Abuse their position of authority? Indulge in nepotism and favoritism? Issue orders to harass their opponents? Rig elections? Indulge in open horse trading of politicians?

{...I hope that is not beyond the comprehension of your "cops and robbers" analysis, that people knowing nothing about society and its setup often partake in....}

I have said this before, Masadi sahib, seek help. I do not know what ails you but it could be some childhood case of inferiority complex that has mutated into a superiority complex, Or some emotional depression. Whatever the problem, do yourself a favor and seek professional help.

re: #29
The only thing that I would take from the piece is that the fella fought well and was treated as a soldier by his Indian counterparts.

Regards,

Faruk

rf786 writes "Are these politicians juveniles or mentally retarded that they cannot have adult opinions? Here lies the problem"

It has nothing to do with the maturity of politicians and everything to do with how the political institution has warped under military rule. People with the "cops and robbers" analysis cannot understand social structure, the relationship between the various institutions in a society, when politicians try to do the right thing they end up like Imran Khan, marginalized, a laughing stock and without the benefits of going along with Army rule (i.e. corruption), so those who are career politicians take the easy route and ganer profits by appeasing the military and yes, US agenda, otherwise they are either sent home packing, jailed, lose their party support and in extreme cases lose their skins....Now do you understand how the military creates corrupt politicians by institutional precident??

Re: # 40

masadi

Keep on repeating your mantra but that does not absolve adults of their moral, social, political and legal responsibility. Now that you have no name to fall back on you pick Imran Khan to substantiate your ridiculous argument and ignore the Watoos, Zardaris, Sharifs of this impoverished country. .

chowk staff,

... please make sure masadi is not able to return tomorrow .... thank you for your cooperation

Masadi is nothing more than a paranoid and like others have commented he certainly bears a complex of unknown origin, all he/she wishes for is to advertise his publications and no one seems to be impressed with this hollow vessel that comes with hole dripping away any intellect that nature may have intended to place in it.
His language suggests that people keep him more than a 10 foot pole away and such a rotten creature is not allowed to contaminate a discussion forum.
Whatever term he uses to blame the Chowk administration but they perfectly seem to understand as to what contaminates this place and if not altogether they have done something to keep this contaminant out of here.
A job well done by Chowk administration.

Re: # 37
Return of museebati masadi with his classic irrelevance,
Palestinian/Israeli conflict: article can be accessed at http://.....................for those who are interested...

No matter what masadi suffers from a person whom he advertises to be, would be rather elaborate and appropriately disciplined and may not have the time that this masadi we encounter seems to afford, implying his presence in this forum to be necessary in the given manner he choses to, while embarking on petty inarticulate exploitations.
This certainly points in a direction that screams and states that this masadi is no more than an impostor of Muhammad Asadi the author who appears to be a lot more literate than expressed by the language of this subject.
And, if it is him in person than the fact remains verified as the universal truth "you dont practice what you preach", and, when one doesnt practice what they preach no matter how nicely they word their publications it is quite natural that such preaching has no effect on it's audience.
If you load a donkey with all the knowledge and publications it will remain a donkey.
Then again there is the matter of mistaken identity which also requires to be considered by all those suffering from the maliciousness of the "masadi" since there happens to be another individual with the same name who happens to be the publisher of a newspaper from Yemen and was arrested by Egyptian authorities for having published the notorious cartoons about our beloved Prophet PBUH.
If masadi is the author of the books he implies to be, I would earnestly request him to sober up and appear as intellectually sociologist as advertised, otherwise, based on his public disposition I am led to believe that he is no other than a "mossadi" attempting to contaminate literature on Islamic topics as normally expected by "mossadies".
If he is truthfully who he claims to be, his writing in the forum here should reflect so, unless he places himself above anyone else who is part of this forum.
Humility and behavior on his part in future will testify for his consideration.
I wish the real Muhammad A Asadi well.

izuber writes "If masadi is the author of the books he implies to be, I would earnestly request him to sober up and appear as intellectually sociologist as advertised, otherwise, based on his public disposition I am led to believe that he is no other than a "mossadi" attempting to contaminate literature on Islamic topics as normally expected by "mossadies"."


For a person who joined Chowk less than a month ago, this fool has the audacity to comment on who I am and what I write. First he claims I'm mossad- the kind that busts the Israeli mythology about their right on Palestine in a most comprehensive manner in my article, next he claims I am impersonating myself! masadi is trying to be Muhammed Asadi...go figure, and then after using all kinds of BS and insults against me, he complains that I do not "practice what I preach". First, I don't "preach" anything to dimwits like you whose only "brains" are in their crotch. Second, I don't give a damn about what you think I may or may not be. Third, my contributions to this site are a mountain compared to the half a pee drop that you have contributed. Now go __ yourself.

rf: Keep talking about "personal responsibility" in your "cops and robbers" analysis, when personal responsibility is punished in a social system and leads to the gallows or to isolation and alienation. If that structure is not changed, regardless of "personal responsibility" those rewarded will always be the opportunists who bow to military overlordship- and so those that populate that structure will similarly be the same, the others will bark and sit outside pontificating their utopias, like Imran Khan, while losing their lives, wealth and families- that is too high a cost for "personal responsibility" and politicians working within a corrupt structure avoid that cost. Dimwits like you wont understand, keep to the cops and robbers BS.

Hamid: yesterday you showed us all how you F yourself. Why don't you repeat that and go F yourself...

Re: # 23
According to official files and papers released by the US, India's next target was West Pakistan and the military objective was to cut the country into half.

Ans: I don't think so. A disturbed Pakistan would have caused less nuicense to India than current one. Huge humanitarian crisis in Bangladesh (refugee influx) was the major cause of Indian intervention. USSR (they dislike theocratic states like Israel and Pakistan alike) wanted to create another country and bring that in their fold. So, they have supported India and Bangladesh....
If Pakistan was united, then two problems would have dogged Pakistan . Political power should have been with eastern wing, as their population is more. That would have created tension as the two wings were culturally way apart. It was bound to create political tension. Bangladesh, being a region prone to natural disaster, it was certain that large section of Bengali migration in west wing causing mohajir problem in west wing....
Pakistan got rid of a host of problems with separation with eastern wing and India invited unnecessary hazards...
Hape you Pakisnatis tried to analyse, what India will gain defeating Pakistan militarily? India can never Govern the land, as Pakistan was not created by British against the will of people. The migration/killing of non-moslems from West Pakistan made no option of West Pakistan coming under Indian umbrella. Those who talk about East and West Germany, they are fools. The problem of Pakistan was with identity (whether to stick to ancestral root or go with mediaval middle east barbaric looters....).

Re: # 40
People with the "cops and robbers" analysis cannot understand social structure, the relationship between the various institutions in a society, when politicians try to do the right thing they end up like Imran Khan, marginalized, a laughing stock and without the benefits of going along with Army rule

Ans: If the politician has credibility and proper communication skill, he can change entire nation. Indira Gandhi and Congress was destabilised by Jayprakash Narayan and his movement....Apart from playing cricket, how much time Imran Khan had spent for the people of Pakistan? How many pro-people activities he was involved? Everybody can critisize, but those who make positive contribution, people keep them longer period in mind...

Re: # 37
Masadi...
http://israel.rationalreality.com

ANs: Can you stop this sh**?
In Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan people (or beter to say Islamic mentality) is responsible of large scale killing...Is there any point blaming outsiders for this? It is like blaming British people for carnage in 1947 in India.
Regarding Israel, only 4% of Arab land to the decendants of the people who have created Jerusalem, Jericho, Bethehlem etc. and for that, moslems need to kill those people!!!! 4000 years of their heritage ravaged by Romans and moslems. Christians at least admit their folly. When moslems will be civilised and be sensitive to them?
I was watching a news channel (Indian). One family (Palestinian)in New Delhi narrated the story, how Shia Militants in Iraq used to kill the migrants and forced people to migrate to other countries. This is definitely crisis of basic human value, not created by US marines. Bring bit of humanity into thought process...every problem will vanish...
Couple of questions...
How many Palestininians need to be relocated? 2 Million at most...Is the number too high, when 1.5 million is displaced in Darfur conflict?
Around 40 Million Bangldeshi and their descendants are living in India (including Moslems) (Assam, West Bengal, Tripura)...Still India is surviving...

nkg your infantile rambling makes no sense. If India had taken over 2/3rd of Bangladesh, excommunicated its people to mulit-generation refugee status and then militarily enforeced its rule with checkpoints and barbarism on the rest of the 1/3, reducing that area to one of the highest poverty levels in the world, and then used that occupation to contour governments and politics around the entire region of the middle east, then we could have some semblance of a comparison to the catastrophie that has taken place in Israel occupied Palestine. You as every other bigot have no access to any facts, know shit except the religious label of the people you pronounce against, and godforbid if that label happens to be Muslim then the a-hole that you are you will find any and every excuse in the book to label them criminal. F you and F your goddamned gutter mentality...

Nkg,

Re: # 48

"Apart from playing cricket, how much time Imran Khan had spent for the people of Pakistan?"

Imran is genuinely a good man and he is one of the top leaders in the sub-continent. The effort he put into the Cancer hospital is something we all should recognise.

It is the duty of the people to buttress good leaders. Good leaders necessarliy need not be popular...

* The effort he put into the Cancer hospital

The effort he has put into the Cancer hospital

Re: # 50
Masadi...
Ans: Before looking into Israel, why don't you look at Bangladesh/Pakistan?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Bangladesh
Simil ar story repeats for Copts in Egypt...
If India can accomodate Bengalee refugees, why not Arabs take back their brothers from Israel?
For Israel, jew demands can be justified through sequence of historical events and archeological proofs. It it their land...Just for the sake of status quo, it is unethical (I am not sure anything that sort is available in Islam) attack them.
Israel is the only place in Middle East, where there is no oil available. They are surviving due to hard work and intelligence. Arabs are leading miserable life due to their incompetence....
You are typical Paki/moslem. You need everything from others, but when it is your turn to give away, hell breaks loose...

Re: # 51
Vengat...
Ans: I was expecting this answer (Cancer hospital). He has named it after his mother's name and collected money using entire Pakistani cricket team!!! Is this very good example? ...To be a good leader, you need to mingle with people, feel their pulse and create network. JP and M K Gandhi was good example of this. In this respect, Subhash Chandra Bose failed little. Whatever intention he must be having, the leader needs to take people along with him, make them feel, he is one amongst them. Gandhi had deliberately chosen the dress (single cloth), such that common villagers easily can identify Gandhi with himself....

Nkg,

No doubt JP and Gandhiji were great leaders...They have different styles and as an adult ones behaviour with the rest of the society is largely decided by the
socio-economic conditions he has grown up in.

As far the hospital, the mode of collecting money is concerned, Imran has, indeed, smartly used his connections. Imran doesn't own a business empire and I believe he has ploughed in his money too. The question is, hasn't he brought hopes to millions of destitute cancer persons who would have been counting their last days.

I, personally, don't see anything wrong in the way he raised money for the hospital. Didn't we organize cricket matches and Star Nites to riase money for the earth quake victims? I hope we have more Imrans amidst us...

:)

Re: # 55
I, personally, don't see anything wrong in the way he raised money for the hospital. Didn't we organize cricket matches and Star Nites to riase money for the earth quake victims? I hope we have more Imrans amidst us...

Ans: I appreciate that, but then again naming the hospital after her mother's name (who has no public significance in Pakistan) looks indecent.

Re: # 55
No doubt JP and Gandhiji were great leaders...
Ans: Gandhi, before reaching India for freedom struggle used to be suited-booted middle class person.

Re: # 57

Nkg,

LOL...C'mon, You are raising the bar to dizzying heights...Girls will pounce on him if Imran decided to go bare chested :D

Seriously Gandhi had a very ordinary childhood...Definitely you would have read his book...

I think Imran must have been a mother's kid...
Afterall, it is Matha, Pitha, Guru, Deivam...

Re: # 57

Nkg,

LOL...C'mon, You are raising the bar to dizzying heights...Girls will pounce on him if Imran decides to go bare chested :D

Seriously Gandhi had a very ordinary childhood...Definitely you would have read his book...

I think Imran must have been a mother's kid...
Afterall, it is Matha, Pitha, Guru, Deivam...

Re: # 58
LOL...C'mon, You are raising the bar to dizzying heights...Girls will pounce on him if Imran decided to go bare chested :D


Ans: I think, I have failed to convince....
The basic job of a successful leader is that he should make people feel that, he is one of their own. Laloo Yadav, Mulayam Yadav, Sharad Pawar, Mayawati etc. accumulated more wealth than Arun Jaitley. But go to any Bihar village, they will believe Laloo more than Arun Jaitley...Lifestyle matters....

Re: # 46
Point proven, masadi deserves that his IP should be banned by the administrators, since he choses to remain indecent in public has no haya or shame to stop the flow of filth from his mouth. No wonder he has a dispute with anyone and everyone who participates in this forum.

An introduction of Masadi by Masadi
masadi

* Sex: Male
* Location: chennai,India
* Occupation: freelancer: independent resource person
* Member since: Oct 2005
About me
hello!

i am freelaner and a nonconformist with wide interests in reading. I attempt to synthesis knowledge from various subjects which have cuspy interfaces notwithstanding mankind's compartmentalized thinking.

i practise yoga and seek scientific perspective within the domain of mysticism.
Fast facts
* At the movies I like to see:old classics /epics/ intelleuctual
Music I listen to:kishori amonkar
Best album right now:not keen
Favorite author:umberto eco
Last book read:shadows of the mind by roger penrose
Best game right now:i have wide sports interests
Software I use:i donot own a computerae
Music I listen to:kishori amonkar
Best album right now:not keen
Favorite author:umberto eco
Last book read:shadows of the mind by roger penrose
Best game right now:i have wide sports interests
Software I use:i donot own a computerae
Hardware I use:same as above
If I won 1 million dollars, I would:help the unfortunates
If I were a super hero I would:teach the importance of knowing and activating one's consciousness
I wish I could:reach out to many
Favorite travel destination:none
On my vacation I..:only professionally
Favorite sports team:brazil's football team
I'm passionate about:reading, sharing knowledge
Food I like:simple rice
I don't like:being hypocritical

Re: # 61 Sir kindly read his books not comments about those books. Also please ignore ignorant and people who guard american policy line at any cost. Have you read Masadi? One needs to forget masadi but his thinking and commentry is refreshig and not copying from elite american magzines. Please kindly study Masadi in original. I have suggested Masadi to moderate but masadi is masadi. You need to accept as is he is original no fluff or flowery language or state quotations line after line , even pages. Some times people who are in that reformist mode are head strong as their ideas even dominate the way talk or write.Just like YLH is YLH or Jayp is jayp. THese are people charged with ideas and want to bend world.
Kindly forget personal attributes of personalitis and concentrate on message.
Just suggestion , THanks, good day.

NKG and venkata.... Till YLH came on scene gandhi was Gandhji but after studying YLH and his selected works you will come to very differet conclusions. Its all peoples imagination and people wants heros and if not they create. Please study YLH impassionately, take out personal attacks etc. You will be following QAMA not M K Gandhi. Study of works of YLH will set you free .
Again suggestion

Re: # 64
Ahmedmadani...
YLH? QAMA?
I am not follower of Gandhi...
He had adopted some of the ancient Indian philosophy (Upanishad - Satyameva Jayate etc...) which is core of Indian society.... During independence movement, he was the only leader, who had united India (Assam/Tripura to Tamilnadu/Kerala to Gujrat/Sindh...brought common people in Congress fold...the impact is even greater than Emperor Ashoka...It is definitely excellent achievement...

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(Till YLH came on scene gandhi was Gandhji )

You are right. Till Yasser came along, Gandhi was mislabelled Mahatma. But thanks to his writings MKG has been completely exposed as a Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigoted freak.

MKG is today one of the most hated and discredited political character on chowk. All thanks to Yasser!!!

Regards

Re: # 66;Majumdar bhai
"MKG is today one of the most hated and discredited political character on chowk."

common Majumdar bhai! give us a break. You should know better than that I reckon

Ahmedmadani Saab,

For me MKG/Gandhi/Gandhiji/Mahatma means the same. I see him with the same reverance. You know we have the habit of calling Gods irreverentially to make God(s) look one among us.

And please don't put all your eggs on Manto's bandying abilities. I believe Manto in his quest to sully the name of the Prophet, he has started throwing mud on the Mahatma expecting a gullible Hindu Indian to reciprocate by sullying the Prophet. I don't have to explain why he would do that.

Majumdar's logic is if a dog barks at the sun, the sun and the barking dog are equals.

Comparing Mahatma and Jinnah, What can I say...it doesn't even qualify to be called a Comedy...Manto's techniques of claiming victories are very well explained by Masadi Saab.


Jinnah, Tom, Dick, Harry and XYZ are all people without controversies...simply because they are/were fence-sitters...Just because Jinnah criticized Gandhi on certain decisions doesn't mean that he would not have chosen those paths if he were the decision maker...Even Muslims did not have faith in Jinnah's leadership abilities and his goodness.

Don't you see why he stresses on Jinnah's secular credentials when Jinnah himself did not believe in a unified secular India?

Now tell me if why Manto would not attack the Prophet for the lack of secular credentials. His problem is, he can neither have a venerable figure in the Prophet nor afford to attack him. In a way he tells all the Pakistani Muslims the importance of secular qualities by coating the medicine.

Cheema Saab,

Sorry, if I contributed to your misery...

Ahmedmadani Saab,


Mahatma Gandhiji would not have had any qualms to be called Gandhi if it would make you and your progenies happy...

Re: # 66
Vengat...
Till YLH came on scene gandhi was Gandhji

Ans: The greatest contribution of Gandhi towards humanity, I have already told, uniting India. The by product of his ahimsa is visible in South Africa, USA. Tibet had yet to yield result beacuse of geographical problem. Why Kashmir, Palestine, Checheniya, Afghanisthan, Iraq etc. so called oppressed muslims will not be able to get rid of the problem is the path they follow.
How can you blame Israel, when people of arab settlements fire Katyusa rockets towards Israeli settlements?
How can you blame Indian Govt. of oppression/HR violation, when the tribals looted raped people of Kashmir and murdered thousands of Pundits?
How can you blame Russia, when jihadis killed students in Beslan?
How can you blame US marines, when morepeople in Iraq is getting killed due to Shia/Sunni battle in Iraq?

Comparing MAJ with Gandhi is something limited in the domain of Pakistan and Bangladesh. MAJ is limited to a single event (1947). He is remembered whenever Pakistan/Bangladesh is in news, that is also for bad reason (terrorism). M K Gandhi is somebody universal and his path is something, which is not limited to freedom struggle in South Africa or India. Being role model for 3 Noble Lauriates ( Mandela, Martin Luthar King, Dalai Lama) is not mean job!!!
Those who blame Gandhi for partition, should take note of Yugaslavia,USSR...Without Gandhi/MAJ these states disintegrated from the parent country...