War of Another Kind

The PP - PMl alliancve is based on a single agenda, to get rid of mushy. Note that both the party leaders did not attend teh swearing in ceremony.

The only relevant aspect for teh world is that the two parties have surrendered to the jihadis. There will be no attack on the jihadis in the NWFP so that they will not bomb the paki cities.

This policy will have long term consequences and will entrench the jihadis as teh final arbitrators of pak policy. Every paki policy can be vitoed by the jihadis with the threat of suicide attacks.

The new govt will acceletrate the eventual iraquisation of pakistan and in that sense it is good, bettr to reach the destination sooner.

War of another kind has started with the new govt. Now no one will dare to investigate suicide bombings. The new govt will preside over the final surrender to jihadis.

from dawn of today.

Two IB men trailing Al Qaeda shot dead



By Tahir Siddiqui


KARACHI, March 27: Two officers of the Intelligence Bureau (IB) believed to be involved in anti-Al Qaeda operations were gunned down on Thursday on a busy street near Regal Chowk, in Saddar, witnesses and police said.

They said Inspector Mohammed Ibrahim and Sub-inspector Fazalur Rahman, posted at the IB’s anti-terrorism section (ATS), were shot dead on Frere Road at around 7:20pm by two attackers who came on a motorbike Honda-125.

Witnesses said the assailants fled the scene after the attack during the evening rush hour.

The witnesses said the attackers intercepted the victims, who were also on a 125cc (IDD-1976), in front of a car showroom and shot them at point-blank range.

The officials were shifted to Civil Hospital, but were pronounced dead.

Tahir Naveed, a police officer, told Dawn that it was apparently a case of targeted killing.

Intelligence sources told Dawn that both slain officers had been active in anti-terrorist operation.

They said the two officers were also linked with the investigation and detection of a number of terrorism-related cases, including Allama Hasan Turrabi murder case, Marriot bomb blast case and Nishtar Park bomb blast case.

Re: # 1

"This policy will have long term consequences and will entrench the jihadis as teh final arbitrators of pak policy. Every paki policy can be vitoed by the jihadis with the threat of suicide attacks."

Mashallah!! What perceptive analyses. I admire you jay ji. Jehadis as the final intercessor and arbitrars!!!

I read your perceptive analyses with great intensity!!!

Re: # 3

LADDU!

Take a break sir.

Dear Jazbathi writer,

{The lid has been blown off our economic indicators that boasted of over 7 percent economic growth over the last few years and coffers overflowing with foreign exchange reserves.}

Can you please provide us with some evidence to back up this statement, cause the stock market and rest of the donor agencies would disagree with your assertion or should I say exaggerated proclamation.

re: jayp

I agree, with you completely.

This present political alliance is held together by a mutual hatred of Musharraf and therefore, the question is how long will it last after Musharraf.

Ciao

Feroze,

(This present political alliance is held together by a mutual hatred of Musharraf and therefore, the question is how long will it last after Musharraf.)

Maybe. But even if it does not last after Mushy goes, it will be no big loss. Pak can go in for mid-term elections or a new alignment after that.

Regards

The "political alliance" has nothing to do with hatred of Musharraf, only one side in the alliance has hatred of him to that level, the alliance is based on an understanding of the power of the other sides and a recognition of the sentiments of the people who currently hate the military and those who have represented them, when you legitimize a farce, you have to give it a public face, the PPP leadership would be more than willing to work with Musharraf were it not for Nawaz and his clout, and their own party rank and file who hate the military and its previous dictator...Will Nawaz become an establishment/Army peon once Musharraf goes is anybody's guess, I am guessing he would, though as an outsider he might be able to better resist institutional pressures unlike the PM.

jayp writes "War of another kind has started with the new govt. Now no one will dare to investigate suicide bombings."

You are confusing the new govt with the old "Musharraf" govt, a government that gave birth to the phenomenon of suicide bombings in Pakistan, whose only legitimation of existence, its nuisance value was fighting a "war on terror" whose public face is the suicide bomber in trying to covert America's war into Pakistan's war. Now when the leadership is vowing, at least in rhetoric, not to turn Pakistan into Killing Fields for the sake of the Americans, who have benefitted by setting this farce in motion here, we have a better chance to eradicate this phenomenon. Of course as a major peon of the West on this site, Feroz will push the American line and anything that detracts from it will be rejected by him. He thinks that Pakistanis consider themselves God's armies out to defend Islam- only a peon of the West or a perverted Islam hater like the many Hindus here carry such beliefs- not supported by any poll or even by the current elections...the people have rejected both the US and the Mullah and the visions and farce promoted by both.....the day of our liberation is nearer today than it was in the past, the colonials and their occupation force is weak, and their game has lost its appeal and the farce that it is has appeared crystal clear, clearer than the pitcute on HDTV for all to see......

In #9 read "in trying to covert America's war into Pakistan's war."

"in trying to convert America's war into Pakistan's war.

Enough posts for today, g'night...

ferozk #6 : "This present political alliance is held together by a mutual hatred of Musharraf "

This is a very inaccurate and misleading explanation and belittles the great freedom struggle of 2007. You ignore the positive inspiration provided to millions of Pakistanis by the Chief Justice with his courageous and principled and which provided the political parties.

And you are barking up the wrong tree when you talk about "hatred" for musharraf - it is the fact that his actions and inactions had led the country to the brink of disaster that was the concern.

If you reflect upon these things with an open mind, rather than based on whatever preconceived notions, I think you will see the point you are missing.

Re: # 3 Jayp and laddu have started terrosists who kill police officers.

jayp and laddu are supporting terrorist as they are killing police officers. So all protest against Terror is fake

re: Masadi

You said and I quote, "Of course as a major peon of the West on this site, Feroz will push the American line and anything that detracts from it will be rejected by him. He thinks that Pakistanis consider themselves God's armies out to defend Islam-"

The vast majority of the nation, Pakistanis, thinks that they are here on this earth to defend Islam and they all support this idea.

re: majumdar

Let's see, what happens...

re: tahmed32

Sirji, only time will tell and sirji, you also need to keep an open mind and not be blinded by prior assumptions. :)

For the sake of the nation, I hope you are proven correct and till that point, I am not pinning my hopes on this alliance lasting very long. I am simply offering an alternative to your hypothesis :)

Ciao

Re: # 15

Feroz saab. Re:(major peon of the West on this site, Feroz)

saab where are you from saab. do you think we are related or from the same village saab.

very nice to make your aquantance saab, i am excited!

salam

Peon of the West

Feroz writes "The vast majority of the nation, Pakistanis, thinks that they are here on this earth to defend Islam and they all support this idea. "

You merely repeated without proof again what I said that you believed in- doesn't prove anything. They do not and never have....

Feroz writes "The vast majority of the nation, Pakistanis, thinks that they are here on this earth to defend Islam and they all support this idea. "

You merely repeated without proof again what I said that you believed in- doesn't prove anything. They do not and never have....

re: Masadi

Proof? It is ironic that a person, who calls others names and questions them, without proof, demands proof. :)

Since you are all assuming and all knowing, I will accept that you know what the majority of the Pakistanis believe and do not believe in. :)

Ciao

Feroz writes "re: Masadi

Proof? It is ironic that a person, who calls others names and questions them, without proof, demands proof. :)"

Another cheap excuse by a peon of the West hiding behind the "skirt" of "abuse" in my posts while relying on his prejudice against Islam to come up with his conclusion. Einstein, if you had read my post the "PROOF" countering your claim was there- the Mullah's vision is what you had put in words, and the people of Pakistan have very recently rejected that, and have rejected that all through their history, in polls and otherwise except for the manipulations by the military and the US on the Jihadist front post 9/11, even that manipulation backfired as the current elections revealed....

Re: # 20

masadi saab, "Another cheap excuse by a peon of the West ..."

YOU CALLED SAAB!!

Salam

Peon of the West

Re: # 9

Masadi saab,

I am not disagreeing with you. Attack on the nato troops in afghanistan and the indians in kashmir are legitimate jihad, supported all alomng by the paki govts. It is only recently that the paki army started attacking the afghan jihadis and naturally this has angered the jihadis, partly on the suddent about turn at the US insistance and partly based on legitimate religious grounds. Hence they have attacked the pak cities. It is correct that the war on terror is essentially an american war, or in broader terms it is a non-muslim war. War or terror is a non-religious description of a jihadic war, and by definition cannot be against a muslim majority country, and definitely not against pakistan which has been a central supporter of jihad and the fountain spring of jihad, the madrassas. These facts are well iknwon and widely accepted, the london bombers to teh recent chines hijackers are products of paki madrassas.

The nw govts planned policy of leaving teh jihadis alone in teh frontiers with india and afghanistan is legitimate and consistent with islamic republic. In return there will be no attacks in pak cities which is good for the people of pakistan.

The point is will the non-mulsim world be ready to accept this. Will theybring on economic and other obstacles to pakistan which will eventually the detrimental to pakistan though the pakistan will be free of suicide bombers.

The question is letting the jihadis to operate in border areas, will it be in the long term interest of pakistan.

take it from me madani saab, jihad in teh name of god is the pak army motto.

Hence the suicide attacks in pakistan is only a squable among fellow jihadis, definitely not acts of terrorism.

This notion is accepted by teh pak society by calling the suicide bombers and the victims shaheeds, a ststus conferred on the jihadis.

The conclusion is that the suicide bombers in the paki context are not terrorists, they are fellow jihadis and investigation against them is simply haram. The police officers were involved in blasphemous acts, and you know what the book prescribes for blasphemers.

In conclusion, I am only supporting religious freedom in pakistan. The same way I support hoodood ordinance, blasphemy laws, the honour killings and above all the return of nawaz, whose govt did not condemn the high profile honor killing of samia warwar,which happened when he was the PM.

Madani, saab accept the reality of pakistan, also accept that the highest court in pakistan is the sharia court, and the hoodood ordinance stands because it is constant with the sharia laws, and its corollary, honour killings, and the jihadic killings. There should be no prosecution of the jihadis, full stop.

Terms of surrender

There is no doubt now that the new govt will negotiate and declare that FATA is free of all terrorists and the pak army will withdraw from the area. Thsi will be the same as in Kargill, when the politicians saved the military from its own stupidity. The surrender of 200 pak troops to a few jihadis was the final proof of its own incompetancy and the paki military will be releived that the politicians will take the blame for the military defeat in the hands of the jihadis.

With teh FATA area effectively out of pak govt control, the predators will have a free reign, the pak army will beblamed by teh jihadis for this situation. If and when some of the top jihadis gets killed, it can be expected that their will be attack on the pak army by the jihadis.

This is a loss- loss situation for teh pak govt, the pak military and eventually for the pak people, I mean the non-jihadi pak people, if there is any one like that. It is time for any such people to get out

Re: # 20


masadi,

.... it seems since i was busy last week working to keep the us elite in power, you have been running amok on chowk ...... it is time for you to pack up ... shoo !

...... and that goes for you too jayp - your stupidity is getting tiresome ..... i don't know about the rest of it, but i am willing to declare jihad against you and send you wherever it is that bad hindoos go .... if i understand it correctly, hindoos never really go away, so you will probably come back as head lice or something ...... has anybody told you about sex ?....... try it, it is more fun than spewing the the same old nonsense ........ here is how you do it .........

What a sick mind you are jp. Plagued with hatred and no constructive thoughts. You are a waste and shame for this forum.

ferozk,

.... i do agree with you that the vast majority of pakis are obsessed with being muslims - like tahmed, they seem to think that it is some sort of a personal achievement ! .... it is all because of the indoctrination that starts with shouting the azaan into a baby's ear and all that islamiyat that is drummed into their heads in grade school ........... do you know that there was a time when islamiyat was not taught in schools ? .... it is true - we used to have a class called "character building" .... which, i guesss, is the opposite of islam .....

Hamid writes "has anybody told you about sex ?....... try it, it is more fun than spewing the the same old nonsense ........ here is how you do it ......... "

So you finally listened. That was Hamid acting on my advice telling him to "Go F yourself"...... beat that punk!

ferozk #15 I am not saying "time will tell". I am saying Pakistanis (and the PPP, ANP, PML) have already demonstrated political maturity by coming together in the broader interest of Pakistan.

Furthermore I not saying anything about the "alliance lasting very long", so again you are letting your preconceived notions come in the way of what is actually being said. Indeed, if you ask me on this subject, I think the parties themselves have made it clear that the have formed a coalition in order to deal with the huge problems to the nation caused by Musharraf's attacks on the Supreme Court and the Pakistan Constitution. There is no intention of this becoming a permanent arrangement by any means

Re: # 28

Masadi saab, language please!

hamidm: on that class on "character building"..i assume you were in the loo with lota rashid at the time and so missed it. :-)

Re: # 29

tahmeed saab, there is a lot of "not sayings" that you have said, so what are you "saying"?

Salam

Peon of the West

hamidm #25 And after all these years, you still read jay thakeray's ramblings from the Asylum for Post-1947 Stress Disorder Sufferers of India? I am shocked at your depravity sir at taking joy in the sufferings of this miserable man.

PeonoftheWest sahib: what i am saying sir is not what brother ferozk is reading sir. so i must keep saying to him what i am not saying. :-(

This peonofthewest should more aptly be termed scionofthepest.

Do we really need more hind000s here? Gimme a break.

Least serious interactors like tahmed32 and some other could do is not to encourage these pests.

Re: # 34/35

tahmeed saab, he must be a cretin saab.

Zeemax Saab
i am not a filthy hindooooo saab but a jaddi pushti musla saab Zeemax saab

Re: # 35

also zeemax saab, my heart is broken saab. first it was masadi saab cursing me and now you too saab.

life is hard for us at the bottom saab

i will go for now saab par let me tell you, ghareeb ki baddua nahin laitay!

Re: # 31

tahmed,

.... you ignorant slut! ..... sheikh rashid is a 'urdu medium' yokel - as he is so fond of pointing out himself ..... " mein hoon tau urdu medium, lekin mein in english medium logon kee chalan khoob samahta hun!" ..... he understands people like you very well ......

tahmed,

"I think the parties themselves have made it clear that the have formed a coalition in order to deal with the huge problems to the nation caused by Musharraf's attacks on the Supreme Court and the Pakistan Constitution."

...... you are such a nice guy .... do you want to buy some rental property in detroit ?

hmm....gilani gets elected unanimously by the parliament!!

a first in the history of pakistan.......a rare occurence anywhere.....

good choice....

hamidm2,

Lick your wounds. Right after the Prime Ministerial vote of confidence today: (1) Frontier Crimes Regulations Act is repealed which the unwashed lowly 'Qabailis' had been demanding for long (2) ALL serving armymen,seventy plus of them, WITHDRAWN from Civilian posts, (3) Cabinet restricted to 1600CC cars and economy class air-travel; and (4) Wheat support price raised to help the farmer and as incentive to plant wheat.

This is how fast decisions are made in public interest ... instead of the 'Unity of Command' of your Massah!

Suicide Bomber Zindabad. Without him none of this would be possible!Howzzat?

Re: # 41 zeemax

The speech was too little and too late. All these "kar diya jaiga..." are quite pathetic. I think politicians are under the impression that they have taken over a new government as in normal circumstances. The circumstances however are anything but normal and require parliament actions on war footing.

- There was not a single word uttered about deposed judges.

- There is no single word on constitional f/u that happened in the martial law called Emerdency+

- The FCR Act cannot be repealed by PM speech only. It requires 2/3 vote on both houses.

- Musharraf's future was not mentioned at all.

- The word on future of pakistan as client state of US and its role as US' errand boy were too ambiguous. As a matter of fact PM used the same slave-speak when he said that "war on terror is our war" (no its not asshole).

- There was no word on the massacre of school girls in Jamiah Hafsa and bringing the perpetrators of the worst tragedy in pakistan's history to task.

- There was complete failure to recognize that people want the heads of these criminals on platters who have wronged pakistan for 8 years and now trying to get away as punjabi phrase goes "neeway. neeway ho ke nikal jao"

I found the speech disgusting, inappropriate and short of what people has been demanding for the past year and half.

It is shameful that by postponning the session of NA indefinitely at this crucial time in history. These politicians are giving the a/h mushraff time to further entrench himself and other foujis criminals who have butchered pakistani citizens to get away with impunity.


I think these newly "elected" politicians have forgotten that the guillotines are still chasing them. There will be no peace without justice. Politicians still have the choice - stop being frotmen for fouji criminal enterprise or get ready for guillotines. Guillotines are not going away soon.

#40 Posted by bulleya on March 29, 2008 4:15:40 am

hmmm....so NOW should we be wearing t-shirts with paki flags?

so NOW will pakiland be able to sustain economic growth, bleed india and get indian kashmir?

New leash, old dog...


US offers Pakistan assistance, warns on militants

Augustine Anthony
Reuters North American News Service

Mar 28, 2008 12:19 EST

ISLAMABAD, March 28 (Reuters) - A senior U.S. official visiting Pakistan held out the prospect of increased assistance for the new government on Friday, while stressing the need to work together to fight al Qaeda and Islamist militancy.

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher said there were militants in Pakistani tribal areas planning attacks on Pakistan, Afghanistan, Europe, the United States and elsewhere.

"We want to move together to help Pakistan be safe and have economic opportunities and we want to move together to make Pakistan a success as a democratic society," Boucher said.

He made his comments at a joint news conference with Asif Ali Zardari, the widower of assassinated former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, whose party leads the new coalition government.

"So, as the government lays out its plan, in that regard, we will look for the proper ways to support," he said. A body of opinion was forming in the United States that Pakistan should get more assistance, he said.

Boucher and Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte arrived on Tuesday, a few hours before Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani was sworn in to lead a coalition government that aims to change the way counter-terrorism cooperation with the United States is conducted.

Their visit angered many Pakistanis who saw it as an attempt to influence the new government and shore up President Pervez Musharraf, who came to power as a general after a coup in 1999.

U.S. ally Musharraf has become increasingly isolated since his allies lost a February election and there is speculation that he could be forced to quit within weeks or months.

"OUR WAR TOO"

Until he gave up his dual role as army chief last November, Musharraf had represented a one-stop shop for the United States regarding operations ranging from renditions of al Qaeda suspects to missile strikes by CIA-operated drone aircraft.

A source close to the new government said the U.S. military has problems adjusting to dealing with institutional mechanisms that Pakistan's new leaders want to put in place governing the scope of cooperation.

Pakistan needs as much financial as it can get. A World Bank report released on Thursday said rapid adjustments and reforms were needed to avert an economic crisis as it suffers from the impact of high international oil and food prices.

U.S. assistance to Pakistan since it joined Washington's war on terrorism in 2001 totalled over $10 billion, most of it for the military. Another $750 million has been earmarked for security and social sector projects in the tribal areas.

Boucher said the United States understood and was ready to support a broad-based, multi-faceted programme to counter the problem of terrorism and extremism in Pakistan.

Helping the United States hunt al Qaeda has brought Pakistan's army into conflict with its own people, and tribes living in the semi-autonomous lands along the Afghan border have been alienated by Musharraf's policies.

The militants intensified a campaign of violence to destabilise Musharraf after troops stormed a Islamabad's Red Mosque last July to crush an armed student movement.

Suicide attacks have multiplied, and almost 600 people have been killed in militant related violence so far this year.'

Speaking three months after his wife's murder in a suicide bomb and gun attack, Zardari said it was "Pakistan's war as much as anybody's else's". (Writing by Simon Cameron-Moore; Editing by Jon Boyle)

#42 Posted by Urstruly,

Sir have a heart. The restoration of judges is a done deal and is clear in the Murree Declaration i.e within 30 days from formation of Government which is on Monday. The countdown starts from Monday. There's no Government yet ... only a PM!

Re Jamis Hafsa, there was a demonstration today by the Jamia Hafsa girls outside the Parliament who were interviewed by Asma Shirazi, and they said one of the major coalition partner (meaning PML-N) has won elections in their name and they better put up with a compelte enquiry into the operation and rebuilding of the institution. When asked whether they'ld have any option if they didn't? They said ... we have confidence in them for now! So ... This will be done too ... otherwise guillotines (i.e. public ones which you defined) will indeed appear!

(P.S. Khwaja Saad Rafique has just confirmed the rebuilding of Jamia Hafsa to Hamid Mir on GEO while I was typing).

Re FCR, it was announced it is DONE, not going to do. The PM knew when announcing it they already HAVE a 2/3rd majority in Senate as well which will appear when required.

Re WOT, what he means it is our war is not that the GOP will continue the military operation. It means they will negotiate as already clearly told to the US delegation by ever single coalition member.

Patience my friend. Everything can't be done in one day. Guillotines is always an option ...

Having said the below, Justice Khalil Ramdey's stuff in the Judge's Colony residence in Islamabad has been thrown out on Dogar's order. (He himself is in Lahore and only a servant was there) Sherry Rehman says this order didn't come from Prime Minister.Developing story.

Re: # 45

zeemax,

..... but did you hear what sherry rehman said about the witches of jamia hafsa ? ....... i think, deep down in her heart, she agrees with me that a fity thousand pounder bomb would have been a better solution .... it is too late for that now, but sterliztion is still a viable option ........

#47 Posted by hamidm2,

sterliztion is still a viable option ........

Perhaps ... but certainly I wouldn't wish that for the kaneezes and the kaneez breeders of Flint, Michigan.

Zeemax,

"Re WOT, what he means it is our war is not that the GOP will continue the military operation. It means they will negotiate as already clearly told to the US delegation by ever single coalition member."

I don't have much time right now so I am just going to write a few lines here.
The PM is right when he says it is our war and he and all major politicians know who the criminals are and who is behind them. The war with the criminals will have to be fought.

Yes, they should negotiate with the Tribes to isolate these criminals and that is a better plan. However, assuming for a second that there aren't any people out there that have criminal intents would be a major mistake.

So don't get excited. The tribes are Pak citizens and if negotiations can help to remove their support to the criminals, then it is okay. Thinking that these criminals would disappear once the tribes calm down, is just plain ridiculous.

You really need to figure out who is providing support to the criminals and would use them again to derail the new government!

Things are not as easy as your speeches on chowk :)

Restoration of judges is not an issue now. What they are waiting for is Mush to leave. He is so dheet that public ridicule is not enough for him.

The way army has ordered to remove army officers from civil position means that things are moving in the right direction.

Re: # 48

zeemax,

.... one of these i am going to put you in the embarassing position of having dinner with my wife and daughters !

.... anyway, you have to thank musharraf for these small blessings .... as ferozk points out, he is the only thing that unites the politicians and he will probably be around for a year or two to 'guide' the democratic process ...... hopefully at that time the politicians will be able to take off the training wheels ..... i think the dropy eyed cj will also fall in line as long as he gets to keep his free government housing - he is a pakistani like the rest of us ......

...... and did you notice that hussain haqqani is the chief advisor to gilani on the war on terror - conventional wisdom says that he is a cia operative ! ..... don't you love it ?!

.... anyway, i think the government is moving in the right direction by repealing the fcr .... fata needs to be fully integrated into pakhtunkhwa ... i also think punjab should be split into three: potohar, punjab and sarakiwhatever ... that is the only way sheikh rashid will become chief minister of potohar while he is waiting to become
cm of united free kashmir ..........

... where is sheikh sahib ?.... i miss him ... sherry rehman is a fine woman and pretty slick, but she cannot communicate with the unwashed masses like sheikh sahib .... she is too english medium ....

sheikh rashid zindabad !

Re: # 50

hp,

... i just talked to two people who were crying for musharraf's blood a couple of months ago ..... today they think he should stick around for a while to keep the peace in the schoolyard ....

...... i know this is just one data point, but the pakistani public (washed and unwased) has fewer principles than a ten dollar whore posing as a twenty dollar call girl !

#49 Posted by HP,

I've never understood what you mean by 'criminals' .. I mean .... I haven't heard of them robbing any banks, or snatching cars. I thought 'criminals' engage in crime for money. No? Heck, these guys even paid Rs 3 lacs out of their pocket for the van they blew up in FIA HQ in Lahore when they could have just snatched it (just as the 'MQM criminals' do 70 everyday)- since they were going to die anyway.

So, explain! What do these 'criminals' want?

Re: # 52 Mr. Hamid , resident Mishigan USA Sir , Things are changing i feel
1. Zeemax is supporting terrorist bomber who kill people and jayp and laddu are for Nizam E Mustafa for us.
You ask about sex. Now I do not think sex is important.
I heard following once.
Sex and air are not important at all when it is plentyful but though unimportant lack of both can kill you.
I have not seen YLH wonder he is getting in administration or something like that in new govt ?

Have good night.

Re: # 53

zeemax,

.... what do these criminals want ? ..... they want to deprive us of life, liberty and - most importantly - the pursuit of happiness ....... they are sick, psycopathic killers who will stop at nothing to satisfy their moon god's thirst for blood (and power)....... it is really that simple

Okay I have more time now.
Zee
"
I've never understood what you mean by 'criminals' "

Don't be silly!
The suicide bombing, the blackmailing and threatening politicians is all criminal. Since when these acts are pious?

Hamid,
I don't agree with Feroz on his theory of Mush hatred! That is simply really low estimate and the wrong way to analyze things.
True no politics and politicians survive with out opposition. They have to have some one to malign and unite against but that is just the beginning. If it was not Mush, it would have been someone else. The issue is whether we want Pakistan to move forward or not? The opposition to mush or more like to his position and the way he walked in to power and again the way he ruled the country is worth all the hatred people can muster.

The hatred is actually against the army as the army was the instiktution that brought Mush to power and as we see as the army retreats, he too is retreating!

The hatred should be a part of the political struggle in Pakistan and that should be taken to a level that no other General ever considers to take over Pakistan.
So this hatred is good and should be encouraged and helped!

One more thing...

FATA should never be integrated in Pakistan, or at least until the time Pakistan has a level of satisfaction with the democratic institutions in Pakistan.

You don't add one more area of ignorance in the mix.
FATA needs enormous amounts of monies to be spent there to open schools and they should be trained in in civil discourse before they are allowed in the mainstream.

Re: # 56

hp,

... i agree with you that the army needs to butt out of politics, but i also agree with ferozk that this present crop of politicians is motivated more by their hatred for musharraf than by their love for democracy ....... as for the paki public, you know i have a very low opinion of the unwashed masses - most of them have a hard time telling their elbow from a hole in the ground and can be led astray by any false prophet, swaggering general or sweet talking politician .who offers them two meals a day and a bar of soap ....... the poor suckers are desparate for a messiah! (i wish jesus would hurry up)

thank God the govt. has announced that it will rely on negotiations and not on military might to handle issues in fata......negorponte and boucher came and went, and seem to have realized that there is nothing they can do.....i believe they will be sending hamidm in the next delegation from usa......perhaps he can change nawaz sharif's mind.....

anyways, now we can go back to the good old days of cd's getting burned and massage parlours being raided.....quite a bit better than restaurants and poeple getting blow up by suicide bombers........

if pakistan stops its logistics support of americans and stops fighting on one flank, then americans are even more screwed in the usa.....i would have to say bush deserves everything that is happening to him....

#56 Posted by HP,

The suicide bombing, the blackmailing and threatening politicians is all criminal. Since when these acts are pious?

So I guess you can't answer my question.

They're just fighting a war for what they believe is right ... just as Bush is blackmailing musharraf etc and fighting his war for what he believes is right. I've never called either of them 'criminals'.

When was fighting a war 'criminal'?

Re: # 59

romair,

... you ignorant slut ! ........ they don't need to send me, they have already sent hussain haqqani .......

Re: # 60

zeemax,

.... are you suggesting that hitler's war was justified too ? ....... next think we know, you will be justifying the invasion of mecca and the destruction of the kaaba by the prophet of medina !

#62 Posted by hamidm2,

.... are you suggesting that hitler's war was justified too ?

Of-course it was justified. Did the winners decide it wasn't?

Look, grow some brains. Will you? I've always said 'May the best side win'. Remember? If Hitler was the best, he would have won and you guys would still be fine. Only the jews would be dead. This time around, if you guys win, Muslims will be dead. If the Muslims win however, you will be dead.

So, may the best man win. That's my motto!

zeemax,

... i see that you did not comment on sherry rehman's very clearly stated position on jamia hafsa ??? .... and what do you think about hussain haqqani as the advisor on gwot ?

#64 Posted by hamidm2,

Sherry Rehman has no choice but to defend Benazir's statement that "Mujhe Jamia Hafsa Operation par bohat khushi huwa". All she did now was to hedge by saying "Aslaha jama karna bhi ghalat tha aur operation bhi ghalat tha!". If she said anything else, do tell me.

Re Husain Haqqani, you may be right. I guess Zardari needs him for now to protect his flanks. Haqqani was Nawaz's ambassador to Sri Lanka too, remember? He's an old hand.

Now go ahead and answer #62.

Re: # 63

zeemax,

... of course we will win and the muslims too will survive - the islamists won't ....... just like the germans survived, but not the nazis ....... islam will be tamed - it has not choice ...... your brand of islam will go out of style with the introduction of washing soap, deodrant, toothpaste and indoor plumbling .....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

hussain haqqani is, perhaps, the best bi-lingual speaker in pakistan......there are very few people who can speak in urdu and in english as well as he can.......

......however, he is far too intelligent to be the usa's spokesperson......he flows with the wind.....and much like mqm, always ends up on the right side of power.....he was with nawaz....then he ended up the usa......and now he is with ppp....

however, there are too many people who are, actually, in the assembly, who can take him on, if he becomes a hamidm......ayaz amir being one of them......

and nawaz sharif has hit on a gold mine......he is saying what the public of punjab is saying......end to gwot, freedom of judges and media, investigating into lal masjid, and freedom of a.q. khan......

i think he will not push the a.q. khan issue too much......and will ask for an investigation of lal masjid, but not reconstruction.......

so haqqani is out of his league, at the moment......my guess is he becomes a senator, and gets some portfolio......he would be the choice of foreign affairs.....however, that has gone to shah mehmood qureshi......the later being from multan and gilani's best friend........

Re: # 68

romair,

.... you fool! he is not the usa's "spokesperson", he is a cia agent - a mole ...... he spends his weekends in langley

Re: # 63

Zeemax sahib:

"...Of-course it was justified. Did the winners decide it wasn't?

...I've always said 'May the best side win'. Remember? If Hitler was the best.... Only the jews would be dead. This time around, if you guys win, Muslims will be dead. If the Muslims win however, you will be dead....So, may the best man win. That's my motto!.."

These are binary statement. Fortunately, for all of us, including you. A while ago, I was on a business visit to Seoul, Korea. This person, whom President Park of Korea had brought over from Columbia to layout Korea's vision for electronic industry was with me. His name is Dr. Wan Hee Kim, do not know if he is still alive. He took me to a buddhist seminary to spend a day. We started talking, soon the point came, and my answer was similar to yours.

I got one of the most profound response, "Anil, this too logical for it to be life, for life is not logical".

When the "best" is uncertain, how can you say may the best man win, please think about it.

Re: # 63; Zeemax
"Look, grow some brains. Will you? I've always said 'May the best side win'. Remember? If Hitler was the best, he would have won and you guys would still be fine. Only the jews would be dead. This time around, if you guys win, Muslims will be dead. If the Muslims win however, you will be dead.
So, may the best man win. That's my motto!"

Don't worry Zee babe; not going to stay for long.
By your above-mentioned 'logic', how do you explin a couple of examples (not to mention thousands of other - but lets stick to a couple here):

1 - Imam Hussan vs Yezid; Hussain had his arse whipped big time and the Ummayyad dynasty continued to flourish for centuries afterwards

2 - Muslims have had their arses whipped for the last few centuries; since the re-conquest of Granada (1492), nothing worthwhile has come out of the Muslim world. Why is your Allah not listening despite billions and billions of prayers by the faithful - surely some of the faithful must be 'riteous'!

The problem with Gillani is that he spent 5 years in the slammer for gropping Sherry Rehman. Thats is the reason he must prove first that he is man enough to take charge of this nation. The khassi fouj has sold their mothers and dignity of this country cheap. Gillani has to show that he is grown up into man to deal with the vicious fouji vultures and hyneas who are still lurking around waiting for their prey to stumble and fall. Gillani must get rid of the dictator and have him court martialed. Its now or never.

#69 spreading the rumors about the democratic government, hamidm? tsk..tsk..instead of sitting in the loo with a lota, you really should have attended that character-building class..

Re: # 71 Sorry my post got cut in half:

Just one question please Zeemax. Based on what I said in No:71, are you suggesting that the whole world for the last 500 or so years has been "the best". If so, what makes you think things have SO dramitically changed after a measly election in a small, impoverished, majority illiterate third world country?

I don't want any Indians to butt here please, if you don't mind. Allow us to fight our own battles; your interference makes it harder.

For those who 'cut & paste' lengthy articles from other sources, please stick to the CHOWK guidelines and provide a link; most of us can read here.

I have to go; better things to do...

Re: # 74 Zeemax (..contd..)

P.S.: I noticed the reference to "kaneezes" earlier; if THAT is what you are after, please allow me to invite you to Aussie. It is BIG here!

As it happens, we have no dearth of inadequates of the male species here either!

Khuda Hafiz for now..

Re: # 74 Re: Indian interference:

Majumdar bhai is the only exception (and a welcome one at that) I can think of.

Cheers

Re: # 68 & 69

Ambassador of Pakistan to Washington coming up?


Ras

urstruly: what is this? maybe you should join hamidm against your common enemy - the Pakistan Awam and their elected representatives!!

Terrorism tops Gillani’s agenda
ISLAMABAD: The war on terror is Pakistan’s war and the elimination of terrorism and extremism will be the new coalition government’s top priority, Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani said on Saturday.

He was addressing the National Assembly after securing a unanimous vote of confidence.

“The war on terror has become our war, because it has posed serious threats to our own country,” the prime minister said.

Militants: Gillani said his government was ready to talk to those militants ready to lay down arms. “Some of our people have unfortunately taken the path of violence in the Tribal Areas. We are ready to talk to all the people who are ready to give up arms and negotiate with us for the resolution of their problems,” he said.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20083\30\story_30-3-2008 _pg1_1

#70 Posted by anil,

All I was saying was that whoever achieves dominance, is 'right'.

With due respect to Dr. Wan Hee Kim, above is life's logic.

Pakiland is like a drug addict who was forced to go into rehab after 9/11. the drug was jihad...pakiland was a jihad junkie if you will...

the weekly suicide bombings are withdrawal symptoms..

to elaborate ... read below as "whoever achieves dominance, is 'right' - and invents his own morality to justify it - which is duly adopted by the vanquished as their very own."

#71 Posted by akcheema,

This is so 101 as usual coming from you. We're talking about civilizational conflict here, which may be out of your league .. boy!

Re: # 81; Zeemax
Zeemax, before you go on to make even more grandiose claims about what is happenning in Pakistan and its ‘significance’ in fulfilling the prophecy of the ‘Nostradamus of Pakiland Mr Hamid Gul (Nishan-e-manzil fame)’, just address the basics first.

This is typical of the “english-medium” type self-proclaimed aristocracy of the Islamic Republic; don’t tell me you don’t belong either to a political family or worse, one with deep connections within the Civil Service. When you live like a common man with no connections, then you’d have the right to speak. Otherwise you are like the rest of us, watching the ‘tamasha’ and every now and again getting a little irate because your horse didn’t win the race. It is all “pride without substance” as I keep telling you.

The problems Pakistan faces are as follows (by no means a comprehensive list):

• Education for the masses; education that enlightens and not just re-affirms archaic tendencies

• Healthcare for the masses; no good just saying “we provide it with a ‘parchi’ for a rupee” at the point of delivery, I mean proper, decent healthcare

• Some control on the rapidly expanding population; when we have the ‘raw material/food’ etc to feed and look after them all, we can afford to keep growing at the current rate; otherwise, no point just asking/expecting Allah to provide it all. He seems tired of this constant demand as well (especially with having to keep up with the constant demand for houries!)

• Stop blaming the rest of the world, especially the west, for your problems; the rest of the world doesn’t owe you or Pakistan a living

• Stop quoting how the Afghans brought down a ‘super-power’; the Afghans were used by the Americans and Pakistanis (Zia, Hamid Gul etc) alike for their own purposes and you know it. If you want Pakistan to ‘defeat’ the remaining ‘power’, go right ahead. Just don’t moan when your country is reduced to rubble in the process (a living example being Afghanistan itself)

• Curb the Jihadism man. In the long run, it won’t pay dividens to your next generation (assuming you have some hope there).

• Think about building an educated, forward looking, enlightened and inclusive society and I will personally follow you til death; stop making grandiose assertions otherwise

I am not saying it will all happen at once; “Rome wasn’t built in a day”. But until we see some steps in that direction, let’s refrain from “baghlain bajaana”. You told someone earlier to be spoiling your ‘serious’ discussion; let’s have that serious discussion.

Bhai mere, the “jihad-e-akbar” of introspection and self-analysis is always the more challenging one! Any fool can make un-realistic claims about anything in life.

Thank you for yor time and Khuda Hafiz.

Others, please feel free to add on to this list........(this offer is not flexible enough to include Indians, with the exception of Majumdar bhai of course!)and have a meaningful discussion...I hope..

#74 Posted by akcheema,

are you suggesting that the whole world for the last 500 or so years has been "the best".

Muslim civilization has 'never' been vanquished. Defeated in battles yes, not vanquished. Do you know the difference boy?

Do read again what I'm trying to say. The Japanese 'civilization' is defeated and vanquished, so is Hindu - not Muslims (or the Chinese for that matter).

AND ZEEMAX, while you are at it, feel free to look at the reply to your "Ghalib ke Sheyr ka matlib" on that board (I think it was the 'irreverent hero...', 3/4 very short replies right after yours; won't take you long to read.

Thanks again.

Khuda Hafiz; I have to work..

tahmed,

.... it seems that you and i are natural allies who agree that this is our war and that we need to find and kill the terrorists in their caves (and above ground) ....... then why do you have to be so disagreeable ? ....... is it because musharraf is still hanging on ? ....... don't worry, he will leave when kiyani thinks he has become a liabiity and zardari decides that he can take off the training wheels ...... it also depends on instructions zardari receives from boucher, haqqani, rehman malik and salman farooqi (these four make up the 'real' cabinet)..... so don't worry, it will happen sooner than later ...... but what will you do when you don't have mushy to kick around ?

.... unlike zeemax, who is on god's side, you and i are on the right side ........ so lets hold hands and sing :

clowns to the left of me,
jokers to the right, here i am,
stuck in the middle with you........

or, as noor jenhan would say " chal chaleye dunya dey us nokray, jithay banda na banday di zaat hovay" .........

#83 Posted by akcheema

Bhai mere, the “jihad-e-akbar” of introspection and self-analysis is always the more challenging one!

Haha ... “jihad-e-akbar” of introspection and self-analysis? Have you been in naqshbandi's company? Did he convert you from murdity to sufigiri now?

Boy ... chose a single position you can defend and stick to it! Don't wade in puddles formed by others when you get stuck!

murdity=murtidity.

Re: # 88 yeah yeah.
the interacts i was referring to are 230/232/233/234 on that board (irreverent hero..)

btw; you have NO IDEA about me

cheers

arjun , Jayp and Laddu limited bad news company ltd.Todays bad news.

Tajikistan to supply cheap power to Pakistan
LAHORE, March 29: Tajikistan Ambassador Said Saidbaig has said that his country would be able to export cheap electricity to Pakistan and Iran on completion of two huge hydropower stations within two years....


Pakistan gets chance to capture rice markets
RIYADH, March 29: With India and Vietnam, the two major rice exporting countries, opting to restrain their rice exports, Pakistani rice exporters could re-enter the regional markets in a big way, experts here think....

Any comments ? Thanks , no response expected , but mute silence

#89 Posted by akcheema,

230/232/233/234 on that board

Yaar I read those posts. Those were as inane as ever. Please stick to Aziz Mian Qawal who's right up your alley, or Jack & Jill went up the hill ... max! Forget Ghalib in general, and the sheyr I reproduced in particular!

Re: # 91; Zeemax

Is this your "usual" refutation?

YOU HAVE NO IDEA;like I said, "pride without substance".

Stick to the 'Kaneezes' ......boy!

Now the coast is clear for you!

Re: # 90

Dear ahmedmadani

Energy from Tajiki-stan will have to come through Afghani-stan for Paki-stan. Creating a corridor between these two stans will also open doors to the extremi-stan soldiers, now do you really believe that will materialize in the next two years? If the Iranian gas pipeline is an example then u can forget about this power surge.

As for the rice markets in the Gulf, well there are two aspects to this equation. First, Pakistani food exports have been banned for poor quality and charges of smuggling drugs. Then, there is the local or domestic population which is suffering under the burden of rising food prices, can we afford exporting essential food items?

#92 Posted by akcheema,

Sorry but I don't care to indulge in long, wordy debates. To me that's nothing but obfuscation. You're not even clear on what you believe in or don't, so what can I say to you?

Yes about aussie kaneezes, not a bad idea! We can talk about those! But I'm NOT going to debate you re merits of Aziz Miana Qawal Vis a vis Ghalib as you want me to do!

#90 Posted by ahmedmadani,

... bad news company ltd.

Great coinage Madani Saheb, but you can count many fake Pakistanis amongst the monkey madrassis on the board of directors of this company as well!

Re: # 83

akcheema

Allow me to add a few immediate remedies for the land of pure:

1-People will be free to say what they think of religion without the curse of religious fascism.

2-Remove Zia-lul Haq from Islamabad and send his dentures to Afghanistan.

3-Export all Hameed Gul's and his type to Soodi Arabia

4-Liberate Mecca and Medina

5-Bring to justice all those involved in the East Pakistan massacre

6-Most importantly, make supporting suicide bombings an offence punishable by imprisonment, confiscation of all assets and in extreme cases export to Gitmo bay.

I have more, but have to rush...duty calls.

21.4% (2007)

Iran is #4. Brazil lost the share of output from 3% in 2000 to 2.6% in 2007. When you analyze the macro indicators further, Iran's number can tell even more interesing story. It is not just about oil revenue growth. Saudis too would be there, but they are not.

The battle is not drawn along the religious lines.

Clearly, there are four more jumbos revving up to share the economic sky, the big picture is certain economic. You will need moderates like Hamidm sahibs, Tahmed Sahibs to increase Pakistan's share of global output. It cannot be through binary choice of "you live or I live."

Re: # 93 Mr .RF the problem is cheap wheat from Pakistan goes to north india and A.Stan. Pakistan govt is subsidizing noth indian and a.stan peoples wheat requirements is real problem. Till prices rise to match indian prices smuggling will go on.

Big investment is going in gas development from foreign countries in B.Stan Sindh and desert coal which practically inexhaustable energy. I do not think there is no sucg huge amount of coal in India.

Tata and management is going to make fool of themselves. It like little man trying to lift 1000 lb Bench press and he get crushed. Main reason not lack of tech power but management expertise. Now jay prashash or Laddu gave for name management. Only two are known. one is Indira of Pepsi company and mr. Pandit ( kashmiri brahmin ? so pakistan connection). Now one should look at pepsi stock and how is doing ? It is not doing probably any thing special its big company and can work on auto pilot. She may be probably good I may agree. But City bank chief was lucky man. As nobody wanted to take position ( who want to become sacrificial bakara for americans ?). The stock is going down like stone and indian chief has not helped. Inside story is American govt wooed Mr. Aziz ( Expm of P.Stan) to take over bank and help but he was just tired after having experience of ungrateful politicians - they did not offered him election ticket). When was big officer of bank bank was doing good. Once he left brain power was left to pakistan capital all went down as mad bull. You need good management. Any way S. Aziz was graceous to not oppose this Indian guy so his appointment went ( PM was busy at that time). Banks misfortune Aziz was busy and fortune for mr. Pandit. Pundit is killing city bank only arabs can save so he went begging to Saudi princes and they are helping, Aziz recommended saudi to give money to bank. So Indian management is is bad and city bank of USA id bleeding and one can not blame arab money managers waiting like vulture to pick up bank peace at time.

Also people who worked at high level at magagement at HT ( HIGH TECH ) tell indians good in maths so good accountant. One pakistani once admitted he will not do any thing till he talks to his hindu dark skinned account. He admitted that man much smart in accountig ( maths) but management he does allow them to have say. Indian industry he has worked and need management from outside and there are consultant. You need vision to chop people and their life mercilesly and thta is what is management is higher and fire. That requires victorious attitude and its born in warm blooded people than cool blooded and conspiring mind like crocodiles.
There is win win situation if both cool mind and hyper active dominating management works together.
Also indian schools are to academic manager training and geared for high Tech companies in world there is more money in low tech and no tech. There You need managers no academic but different type. Like german GM failed in Karachi ( Electric co) but you as person like Altaf Hussain and he can give GM who can mange things fast. But management needs freedom of action and can not go just usual ways. A best manager is one who makes unusual type management style for extraordinary management problems. Some times you need muscule power to "FIX" problems. In complex situation Indian management just have no capacity. Management is on indian forte . Combined tech of india + Management from pakistan good result. Gulf is example. Win Win Situation.
Good afternoon. Good luck.

Re: # 96 Thanks.

Here is more for Zeemax:
Civilisational clash eh; just because there has been ongoing poverty, disease, illiteracy etc in the Muslim world, does make it a “continuum” in this respect. You are very quick to criticise science when it suits you; go and live in some cave like your other mates; NO YOU NEVER WILL as I’ll explain later! Bring an alternative plan, you know like a clear idea of what you seek, how it is better than what people have; not the ideas of self-proclaimed prophets with altered mentation to 'prove' your points!

What do you have to offer as an alternative to the rest of the world? Talk facts and we’ll all listen. All you have is some empty slogans and promise of a Utopia that never existed anywhere in history, Islamic or otherwise. Failing that, your next solution seems to be “the next world” for which you seem to provide NO evidence but a rhetoric; you have to come up with something better than that my deluded friend!

Pakistan does not belong to your ‘maama’ that you stake claims over its destiny. We are all equal stakeholders here and try as you may, I am not going to let you forget that!

I have asked you many questions, presented you with little challenges etc, you couldn’t even answer basic theological queries. Then you distract me with Ghalib; then all you can say is it wasn’t good enough. Where is the simple task I requested of you? I asked you to name ONLY TEN DEVOUT AND PRACTISING MUSLIM (as defined and accepted by the collective Muslim conscience) SCIENTIST/INVENTORS, born in the last 500 years who have POSITIVELY contributed towards the betterment of mankind as a whole. You couldn’t come up with one (feel free to include Abdus-Salam if you will! For your objective it wouldn’t matter then would it? It would though when it comes to the Constitution of your country!).

Like I said, this “khassi-puna” and “makhanchoo” mentality I have seen before, you are not an isolated example! Unfortunately for you, you have put yourself UP THERE to defend “the faith”; well go and bloody well defend it then! Why do I not see YOU volunteering for a suicide mission, since it brings such ‘peace and tranquility’ to the NWFP/FATA? Because like I said, “Makhanchoos” can only watch from a distance! YOU my friend will always find someone else MORE DESERVING of the houries; you may be anything but NOT THAT STUPID!

Bring Eklavya in now so he can entertain us with long-winded collections of words to take the heat off you, why don’t you?

My beliefs...boy....are on record here. The "Jihad-e-Akbar" euphemism was to knock some sense into you....boy...at least that's true based on your picture on your personal page! Cute child; don't know what went wrong. Why don't you change it with something to represent more your physical rather than mental age!

As t