Surviving Musharraf's Exit?

Re: # 382 Posted by hamidm2 on April 3, 2008 5:05:58 am

Hamid mian,

The question to be asked is whether a secualr nation can develop an egalitarian society, and the jury is still out on this.

Re: # 382 hamidm

India will always be a hindoo nation... just like america will always be a judeo-christian nation...

Secularism in india has very little to do with presence of muslims - it's about how hindus want to create nation for themselves and others... even if there is no muslim in india - it will still be a secular nation...

It's similar to america... even if there is no minority, it will still be a secular a nation...

dm #380 good question. you need to look carefully at what i am specifically saying and you will get your answer.

e.g., in #379, what i wrote was "we pakis are deluded fools who dont see how pious, rich, and admirable you hindus are.". In other words, I was merely repeating what jay thakeray and arjun (whom bjkumar was saying are right) are saying about muslims. Where is the blanket condemnation of all hindus that you see in this or anything else I have written?

there is something people are ignoring.......i.e. personal hatred of msuharraf......

there are two individuals who have suffered the most under musharraf......who are they.......javed hashmi and yusuf gilani.......

why have i been saying for two years that yusuf gilani should be pm.......i actually met him, while he was in jail, when i was in pakistan.....he has written a book, about his jail stay, which he gave to me (and to various others people who would meet him).......

musharraf abused and targeted him very severely......he devleoped medical problems in his shoulder.....he was taken through pindi city in armoured personnel carriers......his mother and sister died when he was in jail......he was abused by constables etc.......

during his five year stay, he refused to even go out of the jail for medical reasons......refused to even send a request for an electrical fan.....

musharraf offered him all kinds of positions.....he offered to release him, if he sent in a mercy petition.....gilani refused......

due to this, gilani is highly respected in the political circles.......a hero of sorts.....this is why every single mna voted for him......something which is historic by world standards.......

the other guy who went through an equally bad experience, at the hands of musharraf, is javed hashmi.......him and gilani were in the same jail together........

so these two are considered the moral voice of pakistani politics by all politicians........

i am amazed they have not shown any bitterness against musharraf so far.......

nawaz, zardari etc. went through a lot also......however not nearly as much as gilani and hashmi.......zardari was in jail for seven years, but much of it was spent in a hospital......nawaz was in jail for a few weeks, and then ran off to saudi arabia........

from what i was told, nawaz totally broke down in jail.......used to cry also........

on the other hand, gilani was a model of dignity and patience......even now he doesn't seem bitter against musharraf.......

not to mention the fact that the charges against gilani and hashmi were totally ridiculous......while the charges against zardari and nawaz had a lot of meat......

however, all these guys - gilani, hashmi, naveed qamar, zardari etc. - have personally been humiliated, jailed etc. so much by musharraf, that i doubt they will let him off the hook.......

not to mention what he has done to the chief justice.........

so musharraf isn't in the driving seat.....the sight of him swearing in gilani was one for the ages......

re: hamdim2 #373

"i hate to tell you this, but most indian muslims that i know (not just the kashmiris) think of themselves as muslims first and then maybe - just maybe - as indians"

How many Indian muslims do you know 5 or 6 and you can generalize about 140 million people.


Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 374

dost-mittar,

..... i don't mean to be difficult, but just because india has declared itself a secular state does not mean that the people have bought into it ....the divide between hindoo and muslim is still huge and shows no sign of decreasing ...... an official declaration of secularism is just a first necessary step in the right direction ...... india still is a hindoo nation .....hopefully things will change in a couple of generations ......

.... in any case you guys are on the right path .... we are still lost on sirat-ul-mustaqeem

Re: # 373
[..as muslims first and then maybe - just maybe - as indians...]

That's true of muslims everywhere... I mean, look at brit-pakis...it's all about Dau-ul-islam and Dar-ul-kafir...

tahmed#376:

If you dont believe in the two nation theory, then why do you respond to criticism of Pakistan with a criticism of Hindus?

to add to #378: and btw, i assume the hundreds of soldiers killed in kargill as a result of musharraf's sabotage of peace talks between two elected prime ministers were also "jehadi scum" in your view.

hamidm #371 Please stick to what I write and dont create strawmen - I am saying musharraf should be brought to court. Your inability to distinguish between being charged and being convicted and punished is consistent with your inability to distinguish between lotaism and the rule of law.

You display a similar lack of understanding of this distinction when you say that "jihadi scum blood does not count". You are clearly unable to register the concept that a man is innocent unless proven guilty. And this is consistent with your inability to understand the significance of the Chief Justice taking a stand against "disappearanes".

While I realize your exalted status as you look down on the "unwashed" in Pakistan from your elevated perch in Michigan, the fact is that you are as clueless about what a civilized society like the one you live in is all about as the smelliest cousin of yours living in some cave.

re #372

dost_mittar ji,

Pakistanis on this forum have said that Dawn 'preaches to the converted'. Let's see if anyone can quote condemnation of this collective barbarism by any Urdu daily. Those are what the people read. And, how do I or you know if there aren't papers who have praised this act of disrespect to human dignity?

dm #370: I consider the 2 nation theory to have been a political tactic that was useful to get Pakistan. It outlived its usefullness the day Pakistan was there.

What is relevant today is the "individual person" theory - i.e. the provision of basic rights to every individual and the exercise of individual responsibility towards society in return.

Once we get "individual person" theory, the only measure of the goodness of any political or social superstructure (i.e. religious, ethnic etc) is the extent to which it promotes this concept of indivdual rights and responsibilities.

#374:

I meant very few Muslims at Hindu weddings in Canada.

hamidm2:

You are not bursting any bubbles. I also go to weddings and am quite aware that there are very few Muslims at Indian weddings and vice versa, and even fewer in weddings in India. still, one cannot ignore the fact that India is not Hindu, otherwise, Tasleema Nasreen would not have been hounded out of Kolkata by a Marxist govt. and from Delhi by a Congress govt.

At chowk, Pakis worst nemesis, arjun_m has frequently said that he is not a Hindu.

Re: # 370

dos-mittar,

.... it doesn't matter what tahmed or i think ..... the fact of the matter is that the muslims of the subcontinent - paki, bangladeshi or indian - think in those terms ...... i hate to tell you this, but most indian muslims that i know (not just the kashmiris) think of themselves as muslims first and then maybe - just maybe - as indians ..... i see the evidence in the 'indian' funerals and weddings that i go to fairly frequently - i am usually one of the two or three muslims at a indian hindoo wedding and there are never more than one or two hindoos at an indian muslim wedding (out of 4-500 people) ........

.. just as white americans claim to have black friends, every hindoo indian i know has invisible muslim 'friends' ......indian muslims don't even pretend to have hindoo friends (or are ashamed to admit it) ... it is sad, but true ..... i am sorry for bursting your bubble

jayp:

"No letters to the editors, no editorial, no comments...no nothing in pakistan about the stoning to death."

How about this editorial in today's dawn?:

Fata’s medievalism



THE stoning to death — the first incident of its kind in the Fata region — of a man and a woman accused of adultery fills one with unspeakable horror. The sheer barbarity of the punishment aside, it is clear that the local Taliban want to demonstrate to the new government that they will not tolerate any attempt to dilute their hold in the region. Neither will they be swayed by the promise of a democratic form of governance if this is designed to undermine their moral authority in any way. This is particularly disturbing because the militants had earlier welcomed Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani’s willingness to hold talks with them. It is incumbent on the new government to strongly condemn this incident, hold an enquiry into it and arrest those responsible for ordering and carrying out the execution, the circumstances behind which remain far from clear-cut. Such instances of summary justice were disregarded by the previous government, many of whose members actually gave their tacit approval to the dehumanising punishments being meted out.

In fact, the incident once again highlights the flaws of the jirga system and the need for Fata to be brought into the political mainstream and to have institutions that are the hallmark of a civilised society. In this regard, one can question NWFP Chief Minister Ameer Hoti’s words of praise for the jirga system recently. True, he approved of its perceived merits more in the context of ensuring peace in an unstable region. But in a shrinking world and changing society, the success of such a mechanism for resolving disputes and administering justice is temporary and limited in scope. If and when the promised social and economic development comes to Fata, there will, hopefully, be increasing realisation among its people that political freedom is the right of every individual. The laws of the land are meant to guard individual liberties which should not be in the hands of a selected few jirga members to bestow or take away. It is keeping this view in mind that the present dispensation should introduce reforms in Fata that are grounded in the reality of global and national political systems. It is in the same spirit that it should strive to rescue the region from the clutches of the militants whose medieval mindset is keeping it from progress.