Bhutto’s Judicial Murder Revisited

Salute to Z A Bhutto!
M Waqar
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was executed on April 4, 1979, a darkest day in the history of Pakistan. Bhutto wrote a book from his death cell, Titled “If I am assassinated,” its last pages contained a quote from Russian author Nikolai Dostoevsky: “Man’s dearest possession is his life, and since it is given to him to live but once, he must so live as not to be scared with the shame of a cowardly and trivial past, so as not to be tortured for years without purpose, that dying he can say, ‘All my life and my strength were given to the first cause in the world - the liberation of mankind.’ ” As death stared the Z.A Bhutto in the face, he stared back. His past has no shame of cowardice. His daughter, too, gave her life in courage. “If India builds the bomb we will eat grass or leaves, we will go hungry. But we will get one of our own.” This statement by Zulfiar Ali Bhutto should open up our eyes and bring back the passion of patriotism, unity and love for each others for the sake of Pakistan. I would like to express that this man is and was hero of Pakistan. Historians, Retired Judges of the Superior Courts and eminent lawyers have now unanimously admitted that Mr. Z.A Bhutto was hanged by a military dictator General Zia-Ul Haq by orchestrating a judicial trial to get rid of a popular leader. He gave Pakistan its first constitution, nuclear programme, held peace talks with India and brought 90,000 POW who were in Indian prison and were going to face war crimes. He liberated the small farmers and peasants from the repression and cruelty of big landlords and banished the jagirdari and sardari system declaring that all citizens are born equal and must live with equal rights. Z.A Bhutto was a Legend, who lived and died like a hero with courage, determination and devotion to his principles, when cruel dictator Zia was going to kill him, Z.A Bhutto could sign few papers and could live in exile but he was a real man, he was not a coward. He too could have made a deal and lived to fight another day; but only great men with principles sacrifice their life for their cause. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto earned everlasting fame in the pantheon of leaders from the Third World in the struggle against colonialism and imperialism. He had the privilege of interacting with many of those leaders who played a great role in the epic struggle for national independence in the 20th Century including Mao Tse Tung, Soekarno, Chou-en Lai, and Gamal Abdel Nasser. He belonged to a category of anti-imperialist leaders who included Jamal Nasir of Egypt and Jawahir Lal Nehru of India. He was a brilliant Diplomat who negotiated some of Pakistan’s most enduring diplomatic policies as well as bargaining from a position of weakness against Indira Gandhi in Simla. He was a great diplomat; there is a story that the American President John F. Kennedy was much impressed with then Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. When they met, Kennedy walked with him in the Rose Garden and said, “Bhutto, if you were an American, you would be in my Cabinet”. To which Zulfikar Ali Bhutto smilingly replied, “No, Mr. President. If I were an American, you would be in my cabinet”. A Pan Islamic socialist who weakened the Feudal and tribal system.. He also pushed through Pakistan’s nuclear programme despite enormous International pressure. He was also a brilliant politician whose popularity and powerful speeches impressed even his worst opponents. It took a great man to get Pakistan out of the 71 trauma. A dynamic leader, who stood up against imperialism and looked to China and other progressive countries for an alliance. When he was Prime Minister, the country prospered and was set on a course of industrial and agricultural development. He gained popularity in villages and poor industrial areas. Bhutto was the only true leader in our history who gave us constitution, identity in international relations. You will be surprised to know when Bhutto became as Foreign Minister, at that time; we did not have ambassador level relations with so many big countries of the world like Indonesia etc. He empowers the poor of his country. Such people like Z.A BHUTTO are born rarely, who will forget his capabilities as an extempore speaker, as an writer, as an diplomat, as an leader and above all as lover of poor. On the day of his martyrdom his opponents called him as a culprit but same are now calling him as an innocent. The simple reason for this is that Zia tried his best to create divisions among people in order to finish the popularity of Bhutto. The irony is all those who hatched conspiracy against him are no more in this mortal world, all of them died a horrible death. Bhutto was the greatest leader we can think in the modern history. In his book “If I Am Assassinated”, Bhutto clearly mentions his fear of 120 million Pakistanis under a defenseless sky in comparison to a nuclear India. What a vision! India could have swallowed Pakistan long ago if thanks to Bhutto we were not an atomic power. On the economic front Bhutto vision for nationalization was that Pakistanis will work hard like Chinese, but here Pakistanis failed him. The labor and the management of nationalized industry had no interest to take advantage of this opportunity. Using this as a golden opportunity, the industrialists, bureaucrats, and above all corrupt army declared him as an unsuccessful leader. Bhutto loved poor and poor loved Bhutto. This relationship is ever lasting. The first leader who legislated labor laws and enforced in Pakistan and nobody could do it till now. This is the reason of his popularity among labors. He tried to unite the Islamic world. The Pakistan is still under developing country because Bhutto is not alive. Z.A Bhutto is the first person in Pakistan who has given the voice to the common people. Z.A Bhutto was great charismatic leader, man of masses, top class negotiator, excellent communicator, a visionary, known for mercurial brilliance, wit and a highly well read person. He attracted mammoth crowds where ever he addressed public meetings even in remote regions of the country. He was a man of masses because of his personal charm and charisma and the one who spoke in the language of workers, laborers, peasants and the people in the streets. He would make the people feel that he was one of them, understood them, had solutions to their problems and give them roti, kapra aur makan. He might have given all these things to them if his government had not become target of the establishment’s conspiracies. ZA Bhutto’s Powerful Political Legacy Cannot be eliminated. In no time Bhutto had made a tremendous impact all around. As Minister for Fuel and Power, he had diverse explorers tapping into Pakistan’s underground hidden energy resources. For the first time Russians were involved in oil and gas exploration. His time as Minister for Science and Technology was well spent. He could measure the advancements made by India in the atomic field. I can’t help grieving the tragic death of a Hero who paid with his life to set an ultimate example of principled politics. I hope we honor Shaheed Bhutto by giving to the weak and less fortunate people of Pakistan the gift of unconditional empowerment through democracy and moral governance and not trade his dream for our illusions. Bourgeois battled Bhutto’s populist economic and political enforcement, the bourgeois and the petty-bourgeois became ready instruments in carrying out their social propaganda against Bhutto. He was the man behind introducing democracy in the country by kicking out the dictatorial rule and finally gave a consensus constitution of 1973 with guarantees to basic human rights under the supremacy of parliament. Cruel dictators like Zia and Musharraf are responsible for bringing fundamentalists into the corridor of power, Mush, who is now trumping against them just an eye wash. Political Leaders must posses’ qualities of power, vision, ethics, courage, knowledge, decision making, integrity, enthusiasms and devotion and should have principles, Z.A BHUTTO had all those qualities. Mr. Bhutto lived consciously to make history and to leave a legacy in the form of the development of his nation. He is right credited with saving Pakistan at the darkest moment of its history, as French President Giscardd’ Estaing said he was the man,” who incarnated Pakistan at a dramatic hour of its history”. Z A BHUTTO was indeed a great leader, a leader we must salute today; who gave voice to the voiceless and helped them shape their own destiny. It was under his leadership that every Pakistani given the right to passport. Education was nationalized and made available to every child. Scores of Universities were built to turn the children of the discriminated and downtrodden into lawyers, doctors and engineers liberating them from a destiny of backwardness. Bhutto pushed politics out of the posh drawing rooms into real Pakistan-into the muddy lanes and villages of the poor. The ever-lasting contribution of Bhutto was to raise the consciousness of the people for democracy. He awakened the masses, making them realize they were the legitimate fountainhead of political power. He enlightened the peasants, the industrial workers, the students, the women and the rest of the common people of their importance and of their right of franchise, which is the definite means of bringing changes and improvement in the lives of the common people. He deeply cherished democracy and democratic values and in the end gave his life for the cause of freedom. In the case of Pakistan, he viewed military rule as a negation of the very genesis of the country that came into being as a result of a democratic process and a vote. Today as the Nation pays tribute to one of its greatest sons; it is destined to move forward in the spirit of Federalism, Democracy, Autonomy and Egalitarianism which he lit through his example of courage in the defense of principles and ideals. Z.A BHUTTO was a people leader, a legend and a poet and he remained so till the last breath in his body. He was a true revolutionary; his revolution was against imperialism, against bourgeois. He was a charismatic leader and his charisma still rules the nation. Z.A Bhutto ruled the hearts of people when he was alive and till date he rules their hearts. Z.A Bhutto was a principled friend to the poor, downtrodden and oppressed. He was fearless in his beliefs and refused to bow before any man or power other than the Almighty. His contributions to an impregnable Pakistan are seen in the Kamra Aeronautical factory, Heavy Mechanical Complex at Taxila, modernization of Karachi Shipyard, creation of precision engineering works, Pakistan Steel Mills, Port Qasim, Pakistan Automobile Corporation to name a few. By signing the Simla Accord of 1972 he negotiated longest peace between India and Pakistan. His social reforms laid the foundation of an egalitarian society, his non-aligned foreign policy earned Pakistan respect in the comity of nations. He lifted the nation drowning in a sea of despair to Himalayan heights. The death cell in which his killers kept him failed to break his will or his determination to challenge military rule and stand up as the leader of the people. Bhutto was a modernizer and saw nationalism as the key to unity. He rejected fanaticism. He gave pride to the poor. As leader of the Third World he spoke boldly against racism, colonialism and imperialism. He fearlessly defended the right of nations to independence. When the 1973 Ramadan War broke out, he sent Pakistan’s military to defend the borders of the Muslim countries including the Golan Heights of Syria. Bhutto’s short life of fifty years was spent in the service of many international, regional and national causes. Today Pakistan is at the crossroads. Its policies relating to Nuclear, Taliban, India, Militancy, Religious Parties, Democracy and Economy are in shambles. Shaheed Bhutto believed that the army could protect its institutional competence by keeping out of politics. He said, “Those soldiers who leave the barracks to move into Government mansions lose wars and become prisoners of war as happened in 1971; his words reverberate as a warning and a guide to the country to save its honor, respect, pride and position by reverting to the golden principles that gave it birth. April 4 falls at a time when Pakistan is faced with a critical situation. The dark shadow of military dictatorship clouds the political horizon and spawns fissiparous tendencies striking at the solidarity of the country. Rocket launchers and bomb blasts kill innocents while the military is involved in operations against its own people. The rise of the suicide bomber and armed struggle is reminiscent of an earlier military dictatorship. The tyranny of General Zia’s military rule led to the Kalashnikov culture where young men picked up automatic weapons. That culture has reasserted itself under the military dictatorship of General Musharraf. Except that the weapons are more dangerous than the Kalashnikovs of yesterday. Every time a General ruled Pakistan, innocent people were being killed. Today many people in Pakistan must be scared as Mr. Zardari is shaking hands with MQM, let’s not forget that Mr. Bhutto and Benazir were killed by two presidents,who were supporters of MQM, if Asfand Wali Khan has some reservations about MQM. Z.A Bhutto was born in 1928. He was martyred in 1979. Yet he lives in the hearts and minds of the people still shining like a star that brightens the sky motivating those caught in the prisons of oppression. No doubt, the age of Bhutto was an age of revolution. At the time of his over throw; Bhutto was emerging as a spokesman of the world of Islam and the leader of the third world. Although his life and political career were cruelly terminated, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto will always be remembered as one of the great leaders who took part in the liberation of the third world from the yoke of Imperialism and Neo Colonialism during the twentieth century. “It is better to live like a lion for one day than to live like a jackal for a thousand.” Z.A.BHUTTO” Long Live Bhuttoism!

Dear brothers in faith,

Don't let CHOWK's new look fool you into thinking that some 'new management' has taken over and that things will suddenly improve. If they do at all, let it be known that I have repeatedly requested CHOWK editors to MODERATE and control the RAW-agents who have nothing better to do than analyse Pakistani news and then stoop to abusing Islam and the Prophets by pretending to be interacters!

There is deathly silence at the editor's desk. Surprised? Not only this, they are guilty of killing quite a few of my articles over the years! I beleive, they still have not received the 'security clearance' to publish them.

One door closes but many others will open. CHOWK is not the final frontier; that it has degenerated into a hate-site should not come as a surprise to those who have turned it into one.

One evening's worth of search reveals that these anti-Islam half-humans will not reform. They are nicely linked; most 'kufr' is anyway. That goodnes stands squabbling amongst itself is a sad situation and I expect that born-Muslim interacters here will remember who they are, where they come from, and where they might be headed if they join hands with 'highly-educated satans'.

Indeed, the Qur'an calls all such persons who lapse into utter unbelief 'monkeys' and 'pigs'. Why? Because the outward behaviour and moral decadence begins to resemble that of such animals.

I must thank those who stood up for me, and those who even thought of doing the same but were afraid of being ridiculed or abused.

There are three kinds of men in this world; fighters, collaborators, and traitors.

See where you fit!

Regards.

#194 article "PRIME Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani vowed to accomplish Bhutto’s mission on his 29th death anniversary.."

YRG is a fake "appointed" PM by those that do not hold any legitimate authority with the PPP- unlike ZAB who was a people's prime minister. You cannot expect a fake to fulfill the people's agenda...

Opinion from Dawn, Monday April 14, 2008




Defining Bhutto’s mission


By Qazi Faez Isa


PRIME Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani vowed to accomplish Bhutto’s mission on his 29th death anniversary. What was the ‘mission’ of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and what were the powers confronting Bhutto when he embarked upon it?

Thirty years ago, there was another general in the President’s House and he also felt threatened and wanted a compromise. In Bhutto’s address to the Larkana Bar Association on March 13, 1968, he stated, “On many occasions close associates and relatives of the president have come to me for a compromise; I have not taken a single step to have any compromise… The president has been talking about the stability of the country. Where are the institutions which provide for genuine stability? This is not the way stability is given to the people… Interference in the judiciary has increased… Please search your hearts and tell me: are members of the legal profession satisfied with the prevailing conditions?”

Bhutto informed the nation about his differences with Ayub: “The people have no place in the government. The military rules here… Yet, it is argued that the country has made tremendous progress, and that there is stability. What stability? The stability of the graveyard?” (Peshawar, Nov 5, 1968)

“Zulfi had roused most of West Pakistan, bringing its young men from a state of apathy or despair to the brink of righteous revolt against the military dictator and his major pillars of support,” writes Stanley Wolpert in Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan.

Bhutto evicted one general from the President’s House, but the next general who occupied it would hang him at 2 am on April 4, 1979. Stanley Wolpert records the event thus, “Fearing possible riots, Zia had rushed to have it ‘over’ and ‘done’ with before dawn. Contrary to the Pakistani prison ‘code’ for hangings, he had ordered Zulfi Bhutto’s murder in the dead of night. Then Zia felt for the first time in 21 months that he could breathe easy. And soon he would announce gleefully to his henchmen, ‘the b…..d’s dead’.”

From his stinking death cell, Bhutto addressed his tormentor: “You take so much pride in being a ‘soldier of Islam’ (an expression which you stole from my speech at the Islamic Summit Conference). Are you true to anyone and what have you learnt from the sacred principles of Islam? Does Islam teach you to break your oath, does Islam tell you to fabricate false cases and hound your mohsin (mentor)…? Islam teaches us justice… what justice can I expect from you? The conspirator who dislodged his own prime minister by force of arms…”

Bhutto was tried for the murder of Mohammad Ahmad Khan Kasuri, father of Ahmad Raza Kasuri, the supposed target. The Supreme Court on the basis of the razor-split four-three judgment sent Bhutto to the gallows. This was unprecedented. It was also unprecedented to rest a conviction solely on the tainted confession of Masood Mahmood (director-general, Federal Security Force) a self-confessed murderer. With regard to Masood Mahmood, who also hailed from Kasur, the Supreme Court (minority of three) stated that he was motivated by “Rivalry and jealousy at the local level which could as well have spawned a motive in the mind of Mr Masood Mahmood to do away with Mr Kasuri who was evidently his strong rival in the field of power politics of Kasur” (PLD 1979 Supreme Court 53, page 708).

Ahmad Raza Kasuri was an MNA who “did not sign or vote in favour of the Constitution of Pakistan of 1973” (PLD 1978 Lahore 518 at 540). He is also a staunch Musharraf supporter. The nexus of the presidency with other anti-Bhutto forces does not end here. The father of Attorney-General Malik Muhammad Qayyum, Muhammad Akram, was one of the hanging judges. There is also the perennial Sharifuddin Pirzada, Zia’s attorney-general, who secured a favourable verdict for the dictator. He diabolically contended in the Begum Nusrat Bhutto case that Bhutto was “the usurper who had illegally assumed power as a result of massive rigging”. Musharraf’s first act, after his coup, was to seek Pirzada’s assistance. He was handsomely rewarded from the peoples’ taxes.

Those who have harmed Bhutto and their progeny have done exceedingly well under the auspices of General Musharraf. Generals Ayub and Zia’s sons and grandson were inducted into his federal cabinet, whilst Bhutto’s daughter assassinated virtually at the threshold of the President’s House.

“Politics is not the illegal seizure of the state machinery,” Bhutto wrote to Zia from his death cell. Bhutto spurred the nation to dream again. “Politics is not the conversion of a flowering society into a wasteland. Politics is the soul of life. It is my eternal romance with the people. Only the people can break this eternal bond. To me, politics and the people are synonymous…. My blood is the blood of Pakistan. I am a part of its dust, a part of its aroma. The tears of the people are my tears. A smile on their beautiful face is a part of my smile….”

What was Bhutto’s mission? When Bhutto was arrested, Begum Nusrat Bhutto challenged his incarceration. Bhutto submitted a Rejoinder (PLD 1977 Supreme Court 657) that reveals what he stood for. “The Respondent (Zia) alone has destroyed … the judiciary by his illegal actions of July 5, 1977. The only way to restore legitimacy and save Pakistan is to roundly reject his action of July 5.… Any attempt to justify that action will … take us back to … Doom.” “An independent judiciary is the antithesis of martial law. An independent judiciary can only function under the umbrella of the Constitution and not under the shadow of the gun of a brown Duke of Wellington. An independent judiciary exists side by side with an executive chosen by the people and a legislature elected by them.” Zia’s “attempts to subvert the Constitution... made him guilty of the offence of high treason”.

“I was the author of the Constitution of 1973,” wrote Bhutto. The Constitution was his mission. An independent judiciary was his mission. To undo the actions of July 5 was his mission. Not to compromise with generals was his mission. Bhutto’s neck snapped but his determination did not. Will Bhutto’s political heirs honour his memory? Will they move to undo the actions of Nov 3? Will they restore the judiciary (without tampering with Bhutto’s Constitution)?

Re: # 192

The more likely explanation is you got carried away and typed abusive crap in haste. Now you are feeling lousy so you are apologizing - but are too chicken to admit what you did.

I understand the acting in haste and feeling lousy part, I have done that many times myself.

But the best solution is to accept responsibility!

Truth is the way! Be truthful.

So says Gandhiji! :)

Re: # 191 Sanatani

Sanatani yaar, Masadi sahib has his idiosyncracies but he does deserve the truth.

I do not mean to play the detective here, but need I point out to you that you posted your "legitimate" posts both before and AFTER the abusive post #172 which got Masadi miaN so riled up!

The trail is as follows:

These posts
#175 Posted by Sanatani on April 7, 2008 9:41:26 am
#174 Posted by Sanatani on April 7, 2008 9:41:21 am

followed the (abusive post)
#172 Posted by Sanatani on April 7, 2008 9:38:34 am

which followed
#171 Posted by Sanatani on April 7, 2008 9:34:02 am

Clearly, from their style (especially your distinct way of referring to MKG) leaves little doubt that #171, #174, #175 ARE yours. Therefore, as far as your "explanation" of somebody else logging in AFTER you and posting #172 (within a few minutes span) is concerned - well...

Save that explanation for the birds!

Re: # 176

Masadi Sahib,

This post is not mine. I was out of my city and using on a public computer. Maybe I did not log out properly and somebody else typed the same.

U can check my record on chowk, I have never used these words against somebody much less somebody's mother.

I may call you a slimeball etc but would not use such words.

However the fault is mine (for not logging out properly) and unreservedly apologise to you for the hurt caused.

Sanatani

In #187 read "how the imperialists act " as "how the imperialists react"

Majumdar writes "It shud be a case of "Friends, Not Masters"

Ironic in this case that you should take the title of Ayub K's book. If he was not a product of the Pakistan Army maybe he would understand that the Americans do not befriend the "Third World" colored folk until and unless they can also be your masters. If you reject their overlordship over you they become your enemies, whether you like it or not. So you can grab your lota and run after them with garlands they will slaughter you unless you bow to them also. The enmity is not from our side, it is the master/slave relationship that all people who want to be free reject, and once you reject it you become their enemy...

Masadi sahib,

It is much to be hoped that Pak's current leaders will act in Pakistan's national interests alone and not as US stooges. Of course that is not to say that they need to treat the USA as an enemy. It shud be a case of "Friends, Not Masters" rather than "Friends Not, Masters"

Regards

later..

Why me, even if Manto (the charlatan) reforms himself and emerges as a ZAB, that will be liberating for Pakistan and the wider region as well- how the imperialists act to such a person's work will determine the degree of "liberation" achieved. Now what was the business of the US ambassador to Pakistan going to London to see Altaf Hussein? These a-wipes are totally outrageous- any move towards slight change and their manipulations to bust democracy for the people kicks into high gear...

Masadi sahib,

For the sake of people of Pakistan I hope you emerge as another ZAB and liberate them. And if their experience with "liberation" is good, I will campaign on your behalf in India. Promise.

Deal???

Regards

majumdar writes "Yes. India has not produced a ZAB. And I pray to God that it never will!!!"

Some people come to love their enslavement and the status quo that oppresses them- typical of the house slave phenomena- they hate people who try to liberate them....

Masadi sahib,

(no India has ever produced a leader of that calibre)

Yes. India has not produced a ZAB. And I pray to God that it never will!!!

Regards

#various Ras sahib

Sir, nothing I have said here (or elsewhere) should be construed to mean that Pakistanis - as individuals - can not be congenial in person.

PS: do not be surprised if I take you up on your offer and show up one fine morning in San Francisco at your doorstep, with expectations of a royal welcome!

Re: # 180

Ama yaar Masadi miaN, don't worry about me. I am quite proud that you considered me a peon! It is an honorable job. Thanks!

And since I am only a peon, you should not pay too much attention to anything I say. I am too trivial to matter.

Have fun, my dear! Good luck on sales of the book! I hope you sell a million copies! :)

Confession: I have no clue what you have written in that book! Oh well!

I wonder why BJK is hanging around on Chowk if he feels that way about the US vis-a-vis India, he should hang out on some US site, there the white man will teach him his awkaat in their eyes in a very short time period- you fools make me sick

In # 177 read "by force of Army " as "by force of arms

g'night

bjk writes " I live in Amrikka, it is my home and my country and I owe absolute fidelity to it. Plain and simple! If I do anything to hurt this country then I would be called a traitor – and rightly so!"

PeonoftheWest (the nick) if you are reading this, here is the way you should act. The white man enslaved your people converted you into a bunch of beggars and then handed out a few crumbs and you are willing to stab your mamma for him- nevermind that for those few crumbs you work your butt off and the "land" was illegally acquired by force of Army by plunder and pillage by the white man now strutting around in the USA. The Pakistan Army is the same way, it gets a few crumbs, sacrifices the lives and life chances of 160 million to similarly "fight on the side of the Americans".....read and learn peonofthewest

BJK when you fight the wars of the US elite, not only are you being a traitor to the human race, a traitor to your nation, you are being a traitor to the vast majority of those living in the US itself and most of all a traitor and ingrate to your own soul...you don't fool anyone by these morally loaded slogans, you are slave to the West, a west that in its psyche considers you sub human, no ifs and butts about it....... Santani go F yourself

Santani writes "ABE MASADI APNI MA KO CHUDWA"

Sorry I don't partake in the past time of scum like you. The inbreeding of your kind is leading to a new species of super retards, then we can expect your kind to leave the human species alone- go do what you are best at doing, in your words "APNI MA KO CHUDWA"- you piece of shit...

Re: # 153

Gr8 Mazumdar Sir,

Nobody is/was worse that Madar Das Gandhi

Re: # 153

Gr8 Mazumdar Sir,

Nobody is/was worse that Madar Das Gandhi

By telling us that Bhutto got "rid of" Bangladesh this a-hole is telling us that he knows horse sh** about the power structure and politics of Pakistan- why he is so interested in it and so against ZAB tells me that the guy lit his white worshipping a$$ on fire by liberating the folk of our nation and no India has ever produced a leader of that calibre....Now go F yourself you piece of sh**

Abe Masadi apni ma ku chudwa aur jo bharwagiri mili woh baant ke kha.

Abe ma chuda behenchod.

Crows do not become swans by aping them and since ur 2 bit brain will ot understand this:

ABE MASADI APNI MA KO CHUDWA

Sanatani

Re: # 65

Manto if you think charlatans who profess to be patriots deserve something other than abuse I pity Pakistan.

If you look at the fact that by getting rid of N'Desh BHutto did an act of Patriotism it is fine (and it is true) if you conclude otherwise I wonder where this patriotism of yours comes from ?

He was simply flawed and no genius more like Genies Ass

Sanatani

#169, your response to my well thought out post tells me the kind of household you grew up in, where night after night your mama was gangraped by gutter dwellers, as a result of which not only is your father unknown to you, inbreeding has converted your mind into the dung pit that it is. Regarding Bhutto and Pakistan, you fools should keep your m'fing, dung infested, inbred brains out of our affairs- you don't understand our politics and we don't expect you to, you miserable sob...

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Re: # 33

Zee Bhaiya,

You are mistaking symptom for disease.

Had there been no Bhutto there would have been no Bangla 1 thats how we call 71 in a housie game in India.

This is like the Gandhi's in India underedevelop the nation and then become messiah's in your country by setting up and giving Public Sector jobs in your constitiuency in India as the joke went it would be cheaper for the Indian Air Force to give a dole equivalent to Uttar Pradesh minimum wage to EVERY SINGLE person in Rae Bareki than the farce of giving contracts to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited RB.

But that happens and this is so.

Aur waise aapki Napak Sena ne kaun se Kille fateh kiye hai ki unki izzat aur abroo barkarar rahe.

Sorry brother but what Colonel Todd said in the Annals and Antiquities of Rajpootana there is no man better than a Rajpoot if he is Hindoo and none worse thanhim if he converts to Islam.

As was said by Bhaijan ji Raja Sir Dewan Narendra Nath who could never eat a proper meal in any area outside the West Punjab (he felt the rest of India was too under nourished) the leader of the Hindu Mahasabha if it comes to Pakistan it will be Muslim Rajput versus Hindu Jaat and they will come out second best as their martial valour is circumscribed by their Dharam as the Muslim's is with theirs.

If Shri Jinnah was a blessing fo9r Pak Bhutto was the tragedy and believe me Shri B Mehsud if he killed that slut Benazir then he did your country such a favour that you even do not even know about.

As has been said mysterious are the ways of th Arabic Moon God Ubal also called Allah that mere mortals can only even only think about.

Regards
Sanatani

#165 Posted by cocrkoach_5

So the cockroach is still squirming ... so I have to squish the cockroach even more underfoot.

Did Mullah Nazir die? C'mon ... google some more - hindoo cockroach.

For our Indian friends on CHOWK:

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2008/04/06/pakistan-breaking-down-the-stereoty pes/

Ras

peeweemax: I couldn't care less...in all cases, the islamic fuckers died like pigs...

hellfires away!!

#151 ... Haha ... it's fun to see the hindoo cockroach running from roach-killer with its whiskers rotating like crazy ... making pitiful attempts to cover up the blunder .

Why doesn't it just admit it's cockroach whirl was ill-informed? Just as its whirl re Mullah Nazir rocketing was ill-informed?

But I don't suppose cockroaches do that. They just need to be squished.

Beej bhaiyya,

G'night!!!

Regards

Beej bhaiyya,

G'night!!!

Regards

I have a doubt, when the present Muslim population's ancestors were forcefully converted by Arabs, isn't it illogical for them to hate Hindus? Or is it because the rest of the Hindus didn't do anything when their ancestors were raped and plundered?

Re: # 158

Hey Jum dada, You seem to be the type which asks a question (Perry Mason would call it a "leading" question) to which YOU already have an answer.

I already stated here earlier, my knowledge of history is not good! I am aware though that it is very depressing.

But that does not mean we have to get rid of common sense. If people act as good insaans they can live together. In life there are no guarantees. Jinnah the lawyer wanted guarantees - he overplayed his hand. Millions of people got screwed because of his lack of insaaniyat!

To you he may be a hero. I think he was a villain.

And I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are. And because of that opinion, I sleep peacefully at night.

And speaking of sleep, I gotta go get some! Good night!

Re: # 156

Ras Siddiqui, I LIKE to say Amrikkan!

I insist on saying Amrikkan!

If you got a problem with that - I will still continue to call it Amrikkan!

I think people should keep their accent from "back home"- as long as they DO give up on their prejudices from "back home".

And I can not help but notice that you are going wishy-washy on me like all those other Pakistanis I identified in #152.

I have also noticed that you display a certain level of preference for the "food" method of solving problems. Please be aware that food does not solve all problems (I think Dr. Sohail can easily name the condition which causes people to attempt solving their problems through more food!).

In fact, in Amrikka, food CAUSES more problems than it solves!

I got to go to bed now. Good night!

Beej bhaiyya,

India was Partitioned because the two main constiuents had very divergent view points on several matters (you can contact Sadnaji and Yasser mian for the details). The Muslim minority wanted safeguards which the Hindoos were not willing to provide, maybe the Hindoos were right, maybe not. But they were unwilling to adjust hence the Partition.

Partition was not the real cause of India and Pak's current miseries, it was the worng choices that the successor countries made- India's adoption of Nehruvian Stalinism and Pakistan's turn to militarism.

And yes, had Kashmir been resolved amicably much of the problems facing India and Pakistan more so wud have been avoided and for Kashmir sadly even my hero MAJ (pbuh) was equally responsible.

Regards

Re: # 155

Jum dada, India and Pakistan are full of all kinds of conflicts and have been that way forever. Inflammatory statements and acts of one kind or another are run of the mill there! But in the past, those acts were more random and isolated from each other.

But make no mistake about it - all those acts would not have broken up the country, IMHO. The original country would still be very similar to what was left of India - living WITH those problems the way it does now. The religious strife would not have gone away but it would merely be ONE of the problems.

Further, there would not be the issue of "what belongs to whom", including Kashmir!

If you think about it a LOT of the problems have gotten aggravated over the last sixty years simply because of Pakistan's fixation on its "need" to justify why it was created. Absent that need, there would be a lot less turmoil on massive scale. Small scale turmoils - religion-based or others - appear to be a part of our naseeb!

I also believe that there would have been a lot less indoctrination of the (Pakistan region) masses. Most people would have exposure to minorities (because there would bot have been the massive population shifts) and that simple fact would provide conditions for more tolerance of differences - religious, sect-wise, you-name-it-wise!

That is how it appears to me, anyhow.

RE: 152 bjkumar,

First of all it is "American"!

The only "size" issue I witnessed in South Asia on my

last visit was the size of inflated egos.

Do not get too carried away by statistics.

Go visit Pakistan. It is not a lie that they are living.

I have been living in America for over 34 years and harbor

similar sentiments for this country but I am not blind

and use my right of free speech as well.

It appears that you know very little about Pakistan.

Jinnah was before my time so I cannot comment much.

ZAB on the other I have seen up close and his family

even closer.

Live and let live. Indians and Pakistanis have to learn

to live together. You do not choose your neighbors.

From right here in California I hope that BOTH of them

will see reason. Your views are outdated. It i time to

move beyond the ego trips and brainwashing.

Bangladesh & India I now consider my 3rd and 4th homes.

There is a certain chemistry of memories, family and

friends.

bjkumar & arjun need to visit Pakistan and have lunch

with manto/YLH and his family. I would suggest that it

should be in Lahore because the food is excellent there.

And the Lassi is out of this world..


Ras

Beej bhaiyya,

My only point in drawing attention to the events mentioned in 153 was to point out that the whole Partition saga was not one person (MAJ)'s doing. And that ML was not the only party resorting to religious bigotry.

Regards

Re: # 153

Jum dada, my knowledge of history is not good. And frankly, the more I learn of the subcontinental history, the more disappointed and dejected and hopeless I get.

I am not familiar with the events you mention, so can not comment. But I do not like the way they sound.

Beej bhaiyya,

(religious bigotry was at the root of the “Pakistan movement”! )

And what kind of bigotry was behind:

The Gandhian Moplah's massacre of Hindoos in Kerala.
Mahatma Azad's call for Momins to do hijrat from India.
Mahatma Mohammad Ali Johar's description that " the most debased of all Momins is superior in character to MKG"

Regards

PS: Btw Johar sahib was right about what he said!!!

#148 Posted by Ras

Ras Siddiqui, sir, if you have any specific comments on any of the particulars I have presented, you are welcome to comment on those!

I have opinions, like anybody else, and I exercise my freedom to express the same.

I do not know what Indian “cause” you are referring to. I consider myself an Amrikkan – and I like it that way. If India and Pakistan can learn to live together like normal neighbors, it will be good for the world but most important, it will be good for THEIR populations. I do not think that will happen – unless the Pakistanis confront this massive lie that they have been living with – and come to terms with the fraud they have been playing upon themselves!

Yes, it is a fraud to say that anything other than religious bigotry was at the root of the “Pakistan movement”!

I believe that people should owe fidelity to the place that they live in. If tomorrow, the most unlikely event happened and the USA had a war with India – make no mistake that I will fight from the US side. I live in Amrikka, it is my home and my country and I owe absolute fidelity to it. Plain and simple! If I do anything to hurt this country then I would be called a traitor – and rightly so!

Unfortunately, Jinnah never seemed to owe such fidelity to the place HE lived in – the place which gave him birth and sustenance and provided him the opportunities to develop whatever capabilities he later came to possess. Therefore, by conventional definition – he was a traitor!

Yes, partition HAS occurred. But looking away from the callousness of the Jinnah, which brought that partition about, pushing all that callousness under the rug is, IMHO, no different from saying - “Hey, the holocaust already happened – it is sunk cost – now let’s not mess up the pitch by bad-mouthing the Hitler! After all, Hitler was the Germans’ undisputed leader. The Germans followed him lock, stock and barrel –because hey, those Germans were afraid of being ruled by the Jews! Hey, maybe Hitler is misunderstood. Maybe, if they had followed the RIGHT version of Naziism – the holocaust would not happen and all would be fine and dandy!”

Balderdash!

Screw Hitler and screw the people who supported him then and screw the people who support him now in this day and age – people who make a distinction between man and man based on the accident of what religious label the men are born with! When people act wishy-washy on something this simple – they deserve no respect!

I am sorry you do not like Pakistan to be called “small”. Perhaps you should compare its geographical area, its population, and other statistics with those of India. I assure you that no matter what statistic you choose, Pakistan will come out….

Small!

It did not have to be this way!

Now perhaps you can go and join Hamidm2, and Tahmed, and Manto and various other “Pakistanis” here in thanking God day-and-night that you do not live in India under the “Hindu” thumb! You live under the feudal thumb, and under the khaki thumb and under the Chinese thumb and under the Arab thumb and under the Amrikkan thumb – but thank God you do not live under the thumb of the people whence most of you originated – genes-wise!

What a great favor from that Jinnah guy!

Talk about cutting one’s own nose to spite someone else!

hey peeweemax..i went and saw the saddam hanging video..you were right...his head didn't come clean off...it just sorta half twisted off...you can see it hanging at the end...dies like a pig...(not an actual american pig though..even pigs are treated better and given a more merciful death here..)...

wonder if the same thing happened to ZAB...

#148 Posted by Ras on April 6, 2008 7:28:08 pm


The partition was the best thing that happened to india...did you read about the brit-paki scumbags who planned to take their wives and kids to an airline bombing?

if it weren't for j-man and the partition, they would have been british men of indian extraction...

so indians...thank whoever you worship for the j-man..

Masadi sahib,

(MAJ was nothing compared to ZAB)

Indeed that is true. MAJ (pbuh) created a nation out of nowhere with nothing but a typewriter and an idea in his head. ZAB (helped) cut up a nation into two.

Regards

bjkumar & arjun's many faces continue

to do a disservice

to the Indian cause here on CHOWK.

Sometimes I wonder if they are for real?

Pakistan and Bangladesh are already realities.

Although I can agree that partition was a horror

that could have been handled in a much better manner

for which the Gora was mainly responsible, the

vilification of Jinnah or Gandhi today serves little

purpose. India & Pakistan have to get along period.

On Bangladesh, we continue to be economical with the

facts here on CHOWK.

Bhutto had very little to do with its formation. Both wings

of the country got off on the wrong foot and things

deteriorated from there.

Pakistan lost more than 50% of its population and 70% of

its rich cultural mix in 1971.

I happened to live there till 1971 and someday hope to

write about it. Z.A. Bhutto is always a convenient

scapegoat for everyone. His name gets many powerful

people off the hook and his criticism to this day

is necessary for those seeking to climb the political

ladder where Khakis rule the roost.

It is time to stress India-Pakistan friendship at full

speed. Food shortages are looming and Indians & Pakistanis

cannot live on hype alone.

bjkumar, please keep your "small" comments to yourself.

I visited both India and Pakistan in 2004. The difference

between the two countries is the "smallest" factor that

I could see, with Pakistanis only barely/slightly ahead in

the food department!

Ras

#146 joieya

Jojeya, Jinnah is spelt J-I-N-N-A-H. Thanks.

Re: # 145
Hi bji,
The poisonous views stated down by you are not your own certainly but merely an outcome of one sided propaganda upon which your generation was brought up.
This is quite clear that you are totally ignorant of the subcontinent history and the freedom movement as well while stating Jinah to be responsible for the partition where you totally forget the well know cabinet mission plan that was accepted by Jinah and rejected by his opponents albeit Congress or in other words an alliance of upper caste Hindus to subjugate Muslims and scheduled caste of your community.
Responsibility of the violence lies on Brits primarily. They were the rulers and responsible for the seamless, just transition of power.
The brutal killing of thousands of Muslims in Gujrat was also responsibility of Jinah, right?
Yes, " All men/women are created equal "
But then their minds get plagued with their environment and especially when they do not have courage to broaden their vision and think independently beyond their inherited hatred.

#107 Posted by rf786

My dear rf786, thank you for your well-intentioned advice and even more so for keeping the dialogue civil and polite (unlike a certain weasel-wakeel who descends into name-calling at the drop of a hat)!

Of course, Jinnah did not go about brandishing weapons and killing people. However, he IS responsible for the calamity that was inevitable when partition was decided on. Since the partition was Jinnah’s “gift” to the subcontinent – he must be held accountable for it. It was not as if he had no clue to the violence that was sure to take place – Jinnah, having engineered the “direct action day” and knowing what it led to – was well aware of the consequences of what had taken place at the hands of religious fanatics.

You can keep calling Jinnah “liberal” if you wish. But he was no liberal. Eating pork and having Hindu friends are only superficial signs of what one believes in. Did you know that some of the worst racists from the American history have had black personal friends? That does not detract from the fact that such racists are still racists.

Let’s not worry about how much of India the Jinnah wanted – moth-eaten or otherwise. He DID accept the “moth-eaten” part and perhaps we should be thankful he did not grab the whole!

We can blame the British all we want, but there is no way you can pin Jinnah’s power lust on those folks. No, it was NOT the Britishers’ responsibility to ensure anything once the country was freed up. They were foreigners!

The fault was strictly our own – and in my view, Jinnah, had he used a bit of common sense, would have realized that HE could have done the maximum good under the circumstances by showing a bit of vision and a bit of foresight! He failed. He failed big time and the subcontinent paid for his coming up short!

Instead, he limited himself to being a Mussulman and walked away from the responsibility and the duty that comes from being born in a place – he showed little feeling for his motherland! He worked out to be the ultimate gaddar! And since he is idolized in Pakistan, why should there be any surprise that it has had one gaddar after another! I ask you, if all Mussulmans are insaan first then how can anybody be a good Mussulman if one is not a good insaan first? And how can one be considered a good insaan if one shows such callous disregard for human life and human suffering as Jinnah did. The “vamp” is the only definition that fits that creature!

I was born in India – but I am Amrikkan. I believe in the simple sentence contained in the Declaration of Independence:

“All men are created equal!”

I am convinced that every person in the world should believe in it too. Then the world will be a better place!

Jinnah did not believe in that thought! His thinking was that all Muslims were to be one body and should be treated at par (or above) other “bodies”. This negates the fundamental equality of men.

It is no different from the South African apartheid which treated the white minority as a separate entity whose interests need to be “protected” from that of the majority black! Jinnah wanted “protection” for the Muslims of the subcontinent just like the white South Africans of the past wanted for the white segment!

They did not believe in the equality of man, plain and simple! Nor did Jinnah! They were wrong and so was Jinnah!

It is no different from the slave owners of the pre-civil war America which treated its white population as a separate entity whose interests need to be “protected” from that of the slaves! Jinnah wanted “protection” for the Muslims of the subcontinent just like the slave owners of the pre-civil war America wanted for the white segment!

They did not believe in the equality of man, plain and simple! Nor did Jinnah! They were wrong and so was Jinnah!

The racist analogy is impossible to miss – unless, like that weasel wakeel, one closes one’s eyes firmly!

Re: # 136

Arjun...... Your morbid curiosity is going beyond limits.
You need to calm yourself and ask yourself what are you getting out of such things. Both died as defeated and noody can openly mourn for them as in pakistan Zia would whip and american will shoot. Like in ethos of old standard "Greek" drama a tragedy unfolds due to basic fault of hero even with all heroic attributes. Both were classic examples of that.
Even Americans ( Your president) were ashamed of decapatation of late S.Hussain . But pakistani have done even worst about Bhutto by orders of General Mohammad Ziyya after they brought down his body they checked if he is circumcised and Ziyya was informed and he must have good good satisfiction of hanging proper muslims. In iran Abbas Hoeda PM improsoned was slaughtered and "revolutionaries" displaced and photographed dead body. Najib Ullah met a tragic death. These are very sad and saddistic things.

Most will agree these were very bad treatments there is metophor in death of mr. Christ Jesus. When he was carrying cross people came to help , he refused saying one has to carry his/her own cross. Can we say say same things about ZAB and Hussain ?

I do feel sad for Najib as in worst situation he was trying to help and hold his peole together when all things were disintegrating. As pious almighty fearing person feel as Ziyya , BB, NS and Musharraff all gang instead of helping Afghan people helped Barbarians for Financial gains allmighty is punishing them and pakistan is suffering. Just like good deeds take time to have effect bad deeds take time for Punishments.That is what today violence,shortage of money in peoples pockets ,NRO all stuff , all Haram blood money soft money is coming back to haunt. You can imagine what good things these politicians can do ,It is impossible to think or imagine they will do.
Best way is to keep such things out of site and out of mind.
For sanity of yourself and others start doing other things and do good things.
Good night.

cockroach_5 behenchod,

What is this? Has the cockroach googled yet? No?

#136 Posted by arjun_5, Manto and zeemax

you didn't answer my question: did bhutto's head come off like saddam's when he was hung?

Abey chutya, whose head came off? Saddam or Barzani? C'mon now be a brave cockroach and answer.

haha...inbredretardax is pissed off because his islamic warriors, saddam and ZAB, were slaughtered like pigs...hopefully both were killed because of a push from america..that would make the inbred retards seethe even more with impotent rage...

don't bother with the past..think of the hellfires that are coming for your brothers, sisters

as for the remaining ninja chix..white phosphorus for them..no point wasting hellfires..

... squish sounds more like when you crush a cockroach. I suppose squashing is more appropriate with rats (when their neck is caught in a spring trap).

So please read the post below as squish instead of squash.

Start googling cockroach_5, and let me know the results! I ignored this shit the first time but you pressed me to squash you under my foot.

#137 Posted by akcheema,

'Allah' Hafiz. And remember you've promised a week - no less!

I think cockroach_5's googling abilities are under serious doubt now. After it's Mullah Nazir fiasco, now he doesn't know it wasn't Saddam but Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti whose head came off.

Ohh these cockroaches. Where's the roach-killer aerosol?

Re: # 135; Zeemax

Influenced: yes, brought down to a halt in terms of productivity: No.

I have quoted enough people here, mostly dead now, at various forums to explain and clarify points of contention. That is influence.

One also evolves and improves upon what has been done and said before; not get bogged down into splitting hairs about minutiae.

you mentioned something to do with ZAB's last words; it took tens of posts just to clarify if THAT was exactly what was said or not; I call that a waste of time; there is a difference and I hope I am clear enough in my explanation.

I am a bit rushed between things so gotta go....talk to you soon again....may be sometime next week

Khuda Hafiz

Manto and zeemax

you didn't answer my question: did bhutto's head come off like saddam's when he was hung?

#132 Posted by akcheema,

good or bad these guys are dead.

This is astonishing. You believe dead people are not important? How many dead people have influenced your life and will continue to do so?

Amazing ..... cheema Ji, your naivety/ignorance knows no bounds. That's an extremely sub-sophomoric remark!

Re: # 132
Cheemaji,

Cheers for modus vivendi...Long weekend here...Tomorrow too is a holiday...:)

Have a good Sunday :)

#129 Posted by akcheema,

Atheists are included in apostates, if born Muslim.

Re: # 131 vengat

I know you weren't. I didn't like Ghandhi ji dragged in there either. That is exactly my point; good or bad these guys are dead. It is time to rise above all that now rather than going around in circles.

Cheers...got to go...

Re: # 128

Cheemaji,

I wasn't trying to corollate from your post.

I am trying to get a perspective on the multi-dimensional motives and modus operandi of a man with immoderate ambitions. In a nutshell I am trying to fathom the world around me.

Zeemax,

Tell me the difference between Thackeray and Manto. As far me, both understand the efficay of 'hatred'.

Re: # 128

I do and I appreciate you stance- even if I disagree in part with some of what you say.

Re: # 124; Zeemax

there is distinct misrepresentation (altogether absence actually) of atheists in the group of Paki well-wishers you have put together?!

Khuda Hafiz for now guys

Re: # 126; vengat

I never questioned Manto Sahib's Pakistaniyet; let's get that straight. I think it would be good for Pakistan to have some space to work out its issues and hopefully sort them out in due course.

Manto sahib understands where I was coming from; the outburst was a bit sudden though!!

Cheers

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Zeemax,

Let us not pussy-foot issues. Tell me if Manto would be allowed to have the reproaching authority
over people of Islamic Republic of Pakistan? Does he stand a chance to know the idiosyncrasies of the predominantly Muslim people?

I am just trying to say that slandering Gandhiji would not land him a ministerial job, people are no more carried away, atleast in the circles that matter. How can Manto make a good leader just because he is the best in slandering Gandhiji?

Manto,

Do understand that a leader, who can empathise with masses who even don't know what they need, is the most needed now. People who are ready to play to the gallery for the sake of personal aggrandizement are the least needed. People who can reproduce reams and reams of past from dubious History books, having an agenda of their own, are the least needed. We need leaders who can take cognizant of the present and future.

If you really love Pakistan, detach yourself from your ambitions. You cannot be a leader as you don't belong to the largest constituent, which will automatically strip the essential reproaching authority over people when most needed.

vengatramananm

Lemme tell you something my friend. As you may have seen the past few weeks since the elections, all Pakistanis - whether conservative, liberal, hard-line Muslims, non-Muslims, or even agnostics or outright apostated like hamidm2 - agree on one thing which is ALL are Pakistanis. And manto, is without doubt one of the truest Pakistanis I have come across.

So please stop your nefarious designs :)

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Re: # 119

Go get some counselling from Ahmed Madani Saab. He is a man who will not hesitate to speak what he feels as truth.

Confess to Madani Saab about your immoderate desires and ask him if they have any propriety. Don't worry about my mask coming off, all of my masks will speak something that is not contingent on my survival.

Re: # 120

Yawn. Yet another chutiya claiming that I am attacking Gandhuji for some ministerial ambition. I am merely responding to the hatemongering by your compatriots. I have no other career objectives.

"No one has doubted my Pakistani credentials."

You have not crossed the bridge yet. Remember Muslims are Muslims first and then all the other tags. You have overestimated yourself without taking time to discern what could be the people like, sitting across the table.

Do you believe Gandhiji bashing can ascribe to your eligibility to be a minister. If you still think so, after seeing Muslims' intelligence and convictions on this site, you are the epitome of an imbecile.

Re: # 117

What a fool. I and making a career on Chowk? You imagine chutiyas like you are going to help me in my electoral prospects. You are the real idiot here.

Finally the mask comes off the ugly Gandhuian face.

#116 Posted by akcheema,

Thanks! And why would I want to slate you? You're a god guy but confused ... I have just been clarifying your own position to you :)

Manto,

You are a fool, charlatan and
one who has immoderate desires. You will go anylength to see fruition of your undeserving desires.
Anybody can see through a schmuck and you no more than anything of entertainment value to your real Pakistanis.

God forbid, if you manage something in your political career it would be because of fanning hatred and definitely would not be due to your leadership skills. I don't see you having an agenda for the people rather you have one for yourself . That's the only way you can make a career.

Don't underestimate your Muslim compatriots.

Re: # 114 Zee:

because you might want to slate me as usual!
Contrary to what you think, I admire your convictions; at least you stand for something and let it be known.

Re: # 112

Akcheema,

Frankly I don't get the point of your post or your profession of atheism or other successes in life.

First of all I am not from any group as I am just a Pakistani... and nothing else. Pakistanis have the right to decide whatever system of government they wish to have... Jinnah or no Jinnah. Secondly... Jamaat-e-Islami has never been a force in Pakistani electoral politics... it got some seats last time around on the basis of anti-American sentiment and that has nothing to do with any religious agenda.

#112 Posted by akcheema,

Why'm I being mentioned? I haven't read previous posts so perhaps you could briefly update me :)

Re: # 111

So now you propose to speak for Gandhuji from beyond?

I don't need to prove myself more Pakistani. No one has doubted my Pakistani credentials.

I suppose you are in the habit of dealing with Indian Muslims who have to prove themselves more Indian than others... but no such issue exists here in Pakistan.

Manto Sahib, we 'interacted' briefly before.

Here is the deal. You are from the Ahmadiyya group; try as you may, Jinnah is dead and his legacy (if there ever was such a thing in the first place) is dead with him. We live in times when at least in the medium term there is no hope in hell you would be considered a muslim or a productive part of the country. Ask Zeemax; its all very well to have some nods in agreement when it suits but there is NO WAY he would propose anything like the secularism you are proposing in Pakistan. This is speaking from an artificially generated make-believe world with appropriate annonymity etc of the world wide web.

The reality on the ground is only worse. There is no secularism here; just because some hot-head JI types didn't participate in the elections, you think you have secularism? Only a fool would believe that. Where is the secular democracy WITHIN PPP or PML (any) anywhere; show me! enlighten me! all of us. Who elected Zardari/Sarif etc to be leaders; a democratic process? my foot!

Stop deluding yourselves guys and get some grip on reality here. Jinnah (good or bad) has gone for good. What he wanted in Pakistan? who knows and frankly who cares? Build a country now with what you have and in ten years or so we can talk!

I am an infrequent visitor here; do you know why? Because I have a busy job and family and a hell of a lot of personal interests like sports etc. I wonder how people here have so much time to "interact" day in and out! May be if there was some actual WORK going on in the country, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now!

As far as YOUR religious affiliations are concerned, doesn't bother an atheist like me at all; talk to Zee/Urstruly clan and I am not sure you'd get the same answer (if they are true to their souls that is!)

I hope it wasn't too abrupt. Take care.

Khuda Hafiz

go zee my tiger.......

Manto,

Gandhiji would be happy if your slander against him will make you a compatriot to other Pakistanis.
I mean you will have to keep proving more Pakistani than the others.

Zeemax et al will watch this with glee since you becoming a profligate means no ripple in his pond.

Re: # 109; Ijaz_gul;"Butto was the worst thing that happened to Pakistam" says Mush."

The worse thing ever to happen to Pakistan was Ameer-ul-momineen and self appointed Zill-e-subhani General Mohammed Zia-ul-huq.

Khuda Hafiz

I saw a prog on Bhutto on Aaj TV last night. His closest friends said that his political Hero was Jinnah. Does that put the debate to an end.
Whatever his foibles, he was the best thing that happened to Pakistan after Jinnah and it is high time he finds a befitting place in our textbooks.

"Butto was the worst thing that happened to Pakistam" says Mush. What an ignorance and shame!