Bhutto’s Judicial Murder Revisited

#107 Posted by rf786

My dear rf786, thank you for your well-intentioned advice and even more so for keeping the dialogue civil and polite (unlike a certain weasel-wakeel who descends into name-calling at the drop of a hat)!

Of course, Jinnah did not go about brandishing weapons and killing people. However, he IS responsible for the calamity that was inevitable when partition was decided on. Since the partition was Jinnah’s “gift” to the subcontinent – he must be held accountable for it. It was not as if he had no clue to the violence that was sure to take place – Jinnah, having engineered the “direct action day” and knowing what it led to – was well aware of the consequences of what had taken place at the hands of religious fanatics.

You can keep calling Jinnah “liberal” if you wish. But he was no liberal. Eating pork and having Hindu friends are only superficial signs of what one believes in. Did you know that some of the worst racists from the American history have had black personal friends? That does not detract from the fact that such racists are still racists.

Let’s not worry about how much of India the Jinnah wanted – moth-eaten or otherwise. He DID accept the “moth-eaten” part and perhaps we should be thankful he did not grab the whole!

We can blame the British all we want, but there is no way you can pin Jinnah’s power lust on those folks. No, it was NOT the Britishers’ responsibility to ensure anything once the country was freed up. They were foreigners!

The fault was strictly our own – and in my view, Jinnah, had he used a bit of common sense, would have realized that HE could have done the maximum good under the circumstances by showing a bit of vision and a bit of foresight! He failed. He failed big time and the subcontinent paid for his coming up short!

Instead, he limited himself to being a Mussulman and walked away from the responsibility and the duty that comes from being born in a place – he showed little feeling for his motherland! He worked out to be the ultimate gaddar! And since he is idolized in Pakistan, why should there be any surprise that it has had one gaddar after another! I ask you, if all Mussulmans are insaan first then how can anybody be a good Mussulman if one is not a good insaan first? And how can one be considered a good insaan if one shows such callous disregard for human life and human suffering as Jinnah did. The “vamp” is the only definition that fits that creature!

I was born in India – but I am Amrikkan. I believe in the simple sentence contained in the Declaration of Independence:

“All men are created equal!”

I am convinced that every person in the world should believe in it too. Then the world will be a better place!

Jinnah did not believe in that thought! His thinking was that all Muslims were to be one body and should be treated at par (or above) other “bodies”. This negates the fundamental equality of men.

It is no different from the South African apartheid which treated the white minority as a separate entity whose interests need to be “protected” from that of the majority black! Jinnah wanted “protection” for the Muslims of the subcontinent just like the white South Africans of the past wanted for the white segment!

They did not believe in the equality of man, plain and simple! Nor did Jinnah! They were wrong and so was Jinnah!

It is no different from the slave owners of the pre-civil war America which treated its white population as a separate entity whose interests need to be “protected” from that of the slaves! Jinnah wanted “protection” for the Muslims of the subcontinent just like the slave owners of the pre-civil war America wanted for the white segment!

They did not believe in the equality of man, plain and simple! Nor did Jinnah! They were wrong and so was Jinnah!

The racist analogy is impossible to miss – unless, like that weasel wakeel, one closes one’s eyes firmly!

Re: # 145
Hi bji,
The poisonous views stated down by you are not your own certainly but merely an outcome of one sided propaganda upon which your generation was brought up.
This is quite clear that you are totally ignorant of the subcontinent history and the freedom movement as well while stating Jinah to be responsible for the partition where you totally forget the well know cabinet mission plan that was accepted by Jinah and rejected by his opponents albeit Congress or in other words an alliance of upper caste Hindus to subjugate Muslims and scheduled caste of your community.
Responsibility of the violence lies on Brits primarily. They were the rulers and responsible for the seamless, just transition of power.
The brutal killing of thousands of Muslims in Gujrat was also responsibility of Jinah, right?
Yes, " All men/women are created equal "
But then their minds get plagued with their environment and especially when they do not have courage to broaden their vision and think independently beyond their inherited hatred.

#146 joieya

Jojeya, Jinnah is spelt J-I-N-N-A-H. Thanks.

bjkumar & arjun's many faces continue

to do a disservice

to the Indian cause here on CHOWK.

Sometimes I wonder if they are for real?

Pakistan and Bangladesh are already realities.

Although I can agree that partition was a horror

that could have been handled in a much better manner

for which the Gora was mainly responsible, the

vilification of Jinnah or Gandhi today serves little

purpose. India & Pakistan have to get along period.

On Bangladesh, we continue to be economical with the

facts here on CHOWK.

Bhutto had very little to do with its formation. Both wings

of the country got off on the wrong foot and things

deteriorated from there.

Pakistan lost more than 50% of its population and 70% of

its rich cultural mix in 1971.

I happened to live there till 1971 and someday hope to

write about it. Z.A. Bhutto is always a convenient

scapegoat for everyone. His name gets many powerful

people off the hook and his criticism to this day

is necessary for those seeking to climb the political

ladder where Khakis rule the roost.

It is time to stress India-Pakistan friendship at full

speed. Food shortages are looming and Indians & Pakistanis

cannot live on hype alone.

bjkumar, please keep your "small" comments to yourself.

I visited both India and Pakistan in 2004. The difference

between the two countries is the "smallest" factor that

I could see, with Pakistanis only barely/slightly ahead in

the food department!

Ras

Masadi sahib,

(MAJ was nothing compared to ZAB)

Indeed that is true. MAJ (pbuh) created a nation out of nowhere with nothing but a typewriter and an idea in his head. ZAB (helped) cut up a nation into two.

Regards

#148 Posted by Ras on April 6, 2008 7:28:08 pm


The partition was the best thing that happened to india...did you read about the brit-paki scumbags who planned to take their wives and kids to an airline bombing?

if it weren't for j-man and the partition, they would have been british men of indian extraction...

so indians...thank whoever you worship for the j-man..

hey peeweemax..i went and saw the saddam hanging video..you were right...his head didn't come clean off...it just sorta half twisted off...you can see it hanging at the end...dies like a pig...(not an actual american pig though..even pigs are treated better and given a more merciful death here..)...

wonder if the same thing happened to ZAB...

#148 Posted by Ras

Ras Siddiqui, sir, if you have any specific comments on any of the particulars I have presented, you are welcome to comment on those!

I have opinions, like anybody else, and I exercise my freedom to express the same.

I do not know what Indian “cause” you are referring to. I consider myself an Amrikkan – and I like it that way. If India and Pakistan can learn to live together like normal neighbors, it will be good for the world but most important, it will be good for THEIR populations. I do not think that will happen – unless the Pakistanis confront this massive lie that they have been living with – and come to terms with the fraud they have been playing upon themselves!

Yes, it is a fraud to say that anything other than religious bigotry was at the root of the “Pakistan movement”!

I believe that people should owe fidelity to the place that they live in. If tomorrow, the most unlikely event happened and the USA had a war with India – make no mistake that I will fight from the US side. I live in Amrikka, it is my home and my country and I owe absolute fidelity to it. Plain and simple! If I do anything to hurt this country then I would be called a traitor – and rightly so!

Unfortunately, Jinnah never seemed to owe such fidelity to the place HE lived in – the place which gave him birth and sustenance and provided him the opportunities to develop whatever capabilities he later came to possess. Therefore, by conventional definition – he was a traitor!

Yes, partition HAS occurred. But looking away from the callousness of the Jinnah, which brought that partition about, pushing all that callousness under the rug is, IMHO, no different from saying - “Hey, the holocaust already happened – it is sunk cost – now let’s not mess up the pitch by bad-mouthing the Hitler! After all, Hitler was the Germans’ undisputed leader. The Germans followed him lock, stock and barrel –because hey, those Germans were afraid of being ruled by the Jews! Hey, maybe Hitler is misunderstood. Maybe, if they had followed the RIGHT version of Naziism – the holocaust would not happen and all would be fine and dandy!”

Balderdash!

Screw Hitler and screw the people who supported him then and screw the people who support him now in this day and age – people who make a distinction between man and man based on the accident of what religious label the men are born with! When people act wishy-washy on something this simple – they deserve no respect!

I am sorry you do not like Pakistan to be called “small”. Perhaps you should compare its geographical area, its population, and other statistics with those of India. I assure you that no matter what statistic you choose, Pakistan will come out….

Small!

It did not have to be this way!

Now perhaps you can go and join Hamidm2, and Tahmed, and Manto and various other “Pakistanis” here in thanking God day-and-night that you do not live in India under the “Hindu” thumb! You live under the feudal thumb, and under the khaki thumb and under the Chinese thumb and under the Arab thumb and under the Amrikkan thumb – but thank God you do not live under the thumb of the people whence most of you originated – genes-wise!

What a great favor from that Jinnah guy!

Talk about cutting one’s own nose to spite someone else!

Beej bhaiyya,

(religious bigotry was at the root of the “Pakistan movement”! )

And what kind of bigotry was behind:

The Gandhian Moplah's massacre of Hindoos in Kerala.
Mahatma Azad's call for Momins to do hijrat from India.
Mahatma Mohammad Ali Johar's description that " the most debased of all Momins is superior in character to MKG"

Regards

PS: Btw Johar sahib was right about what he said!!!

Re: # 153

Jum dada, my knowledge of history is not good. And frankly, the more I learn of the subcontinental history, the more disappointed and dejected and hopeless I get.

I am not familiar with the events you mention, so can not comment. But I do not like the way they sound.

Beej bhaiyya,

My only point in drawing attention to the events mentioned in 153 was to point out that the whole Partition saga was not one person (MAJ)'s doing. And that ML was not the only party resorting to religious bigotry.

Regards

RE: 152 bjkumar,

First of all it is "American"!

The only "size" issue I witnessed in South Asia on my

last visit was the size of inflated egos.

Do not get too carried away by statistics.

Go visit Pakistan. It is not a lie that they are living.

I have been living in America for over 34 years and harbor

similar sentiments for this country but I am not blind

and use my right of free speech as well.

It appears that you know very little about Pakistan.

Jinnah was before my time so I cannot comment much.

ZAB on the other I have seen up close and his family

even closer.

Live and let live. Indians and Pakistanis have to learn

to live together. You do not choose your neighbors.

From right here in California I hope that BOTH of them

will see reason. Your views are outdated. It i time to

move beyond the ego trips and brainwashing.

Bangladesh & India I now consider my 3rd and 4th homes.

There is a certain chemistry of memories, family and

friends.

bjkumar & arjun need to visit Pakistan and have lunch

with manto/YLH and his family. I would suggest that it

should be in Lahore because the food is excellent there.

And the Lassi is out of this world..


Ras

Re: # 155

Jum dada, India and Pakistan are full of all kinds of conflicts and have been that way forever. Inflammatory statements and acts of one kind or another are run of the mill there! But in the past, those acts were more random and isolated from each other.

But make no mistake about it - all those acts would not have broken up the country, IMHO. The original country would still be very similar to what was left of India - living WITH those problems the way it does now. The religious strife would not have gone away but it would merely be ONE of the problems.

Further, there would not be the issue of "what belongs to whom", including Kashmir!

If you think about it a LOT of the problems have gotten aggravated over the last sixty years simply because of Pakistan's fixation on its "need" to justify why it was created. Absent that need, there would be a lot less turmoil on massive scale. Small scale turmoils - religion-based or others - appear to be a part of our naseeb!

I also believe that there would have been a lot less indoctrination of the (Pakistan region) masses. Most people would have exposure to minorities (because there would bot have been the massive population shifts) and that simple fact would provide conditions for more tolerance of differences - religious, sect-wise, you-name-it-wise!

That is how it appears to me, anyhow.

Beej bhaiyya,

India was Partitioned because the two main constiuents had very divergent view points on several matters (you can contact Sadnaji and Yasser mian for the details). The Muslim minority wanted safeguards which the Hindoos were not willing to provide, maybe the Hindoos were right, maybe not. But they were unwilling to adjust hence the Partition.

Partition was not the real cause of India and Pak's current miseries, it was the worng choices that the successor countries made- India's adoption of Nehruvian Stalinism and Pakistan's turn to militarism.

And yes, had Kashmir been resolved amicably much of the problems facing India and Pakistan more so wud have been avoided and for Kashmir sadly even my hero MAJ (pbuh) was equally responsible.

Regards

Re: # 156

Ras Siddiqui, I LIKE to say Amrikkan!

I insist on saying Amrikkan!

If you got a problem with that - I will still continue to call it Amrikkan!

I think people should keep their accent from "back home"- as long as they DO give up on their prejudices from "back home".

And I can not help but notice that you are going wishy-washy on me like all those other Pakistanis I identified in #152.

I have also noticed that you display a certain level of preference for the "food" method of solving problems. Please be aware that food does not solve all problems (I think Dr. Sohail can easily name the condition which causes people to attempt solving their problems through more food!).

In fact, in Amrikka, food CAUSES more problems than it solves!

I got to go to bed now. Good night!

Re: # 158

Hey Jum dada, You seem to be the type which asks a question (Perry Mason would call it a "leading" question) to which YOU already have an answer.

I already stated here earlier, my knowledge of history is not good! I am aware though that it is very depressing.

But that does not mean we have to get rid of common sense. If people act as good insaans they can live together. In life there are no guarantees. Jinnah the lawyer wanted guarantees - he overplayed his hand. Millions of people got screwed because of his lack of insaaniyat!

To you he may be a hero. I think he was a villain.

And I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are. And because of that opinion, I sleep peacefully at night.

And speaking of sleep, I gotta go get some! Good night!