Bhutto’s Judicial Murder Revisited

Oh bhai, I stand by everything I said about Bhutto. He was a flawed leader, a patriot who promised a lot delivered very little but whose death was tragic in the way it was carried out in complete and utter disregard of all established norms of law.

He was, as HP and others have said, a brilliant politician who could otherwise be ruthless. But that does not take away from the fact that he believed in his country and its people.

In many ways, he played the role Nehru played in post independence India except that his role was cut short, tragically for Pakistan.

But no one can deny him the role of being the father of Pakistan's unanimous constitution and as the founding leader of the PPP, Pakistan's truly nationalist party.

Re: # 65

manto or whatever you are read interact 64.

i thought manto was dead too!

pakistan3 "It doesn't matter to Bhutto now that he is dead so why does it matter so much to you two idiots? "

To understand how you got to the present structure you are well advised not to forget history, dead person or not, you do so at your own peril and ignorance....

Pakistan3

Surely that "dead" dictum applies equally to Prophets and one's own ancesters.

#56 Posted by MantoLives

Saw the entire session. Amazing ... looked like it was a scene from ROME.

Rome of hamidm2? Looks like we've finally arrived where hamidm2 wants us to be.

pakistan3,

Another murtid. There seem to be a lot crawling out from under rocks.

Please refrain from posting on Connect. You're not welcome.

Re: # 68
mantolives
If you go by my name(Pakistan3), my ancestory includes India. I am only 1/3 of what I could have been. I am sure if I went on and on about that you won't be pleased!

#46 Zeemax,
I had posted this on another thread for Ijaz.
This Pak3 is another nic for some Indian so just ignore him.

#527 Posted by HP on April 3, 2008 8:27:21 pm
#516 Posted by ijaz_gul

There are two sides of this story. The first is what you are saying but the second and the correct one is that PPP and NS need 2/3 majority to get approval of the constitution amendments. AZ and NS still need votes in the Senate and they need support from MQM. In fact, they can’t remove the President w/o the 2/3 support in the both houses. With that in mind, I would suggest people need to slow down and wait for all cards to be played out. The conspiracy theories that are flying everywhere are really not worth the time to speculate about. AZ can’t do anything w/o NS consent and no constitutional amendment can pass the assembly w/o NS. So, I don’t see any issues there.

Though I haven’t spoken to anyone in Pakistan yet, but I read pretty much all Sindhi papers and AZ’s 90 visit appears to have lots of resentment in Sindh.

Let me remind you one thing here. The original agreement that Benazir agreed with Mush was really to have PPP-MQM and Q league, if needed. That did not work out as the situation changed. Once Benazir saw the situation on the ground, she insisted that NS take part in elections knowing full well that if NS is not in the assembly, she would just end up being a puppet PM. Perhaps that was one reason she had to be eliminated. The second time around, Zardari insisted that NS take part in elections after he had announced to boycott them a day after Benazir was murdered.

The tradition in the PPP is that workers usually don’t go against the party leadership in public but inside, strong debates take place and I am sure, Zardari must have heard from many of his workers and Sindhi PPP leaders already about the MQM.

If anyone thinks that removing Mush would be easy or bringing the CJ back would be piece of cake then they live in fools’ paradise. 90% of the PPP MNAs and 70% of the PMLN MNAs are approachable by the army and its agencies. So there is no need to underestimate the situation in Pakistan. Both NS and AZ know that they can’t move w/o getting the okay from the army or at least the army would look the other way when they move against Mush.

There are lots of variable and I think Punjabis are showing their usual haste and Jadli karo na bhai habit again and they would probably end up destroying the whole game and would put politicians in confrontation before they are ready.

I was disappointed to hear Aitazaz Ahsan talking about the constitutional amended sponsored by the President House. This is just plain ridiculous. Any constitutional amendment would require 2/3 and no one has 2/3 w/o NS’s support.

#524 Posted by ijaz_gul
"Even then I had commented that this Zardari may have his hands soiled. Now I have no doubts."

Chill out! This is emotional, childish and not worthy of repeating in public.

Zeemax,
This post is relevant too.

#528 Posted by HP on April 3, 2008 8:38:00 pm
#516 Posted by ijaz_gul

The CJ's reinstatement has a symbolic value and perhaps would play well in public but the reality is that reforming the judicial system is even more important. If the PPP has some proposals that would help the judicial system, then all need to wait for that. There are still plenty of days for thirty days limit to pass. We need to realize that worthwhile judicial reforms ace the CJ's reinstatement any time.

If Chowdry bows out in exchange for comprehensive reforms in the Judicial system, then he should be ready to do that and the lawyers should also accept that!

He has done his part and he will remain a threat to all politicians. His ego and his No should be tamed for a substantially changed system for future!

HP #73 if the CJ is restored, this will be a message to all Pakistanis that one man can take a stand and make a difference. If he is not, the message will be that only fools take a stand, while "smart people" play dirty tricks.

That is the real significance.

As for this musharraf - his name is already mud and his dirty tricks merely add to it. if the CJ is restored, he will of course declare mush "re-election" illegal and mush will then be faced with the prospect of being charged with multiple crimes. That is why he is refusing to step down, so at least one can see some logic behind his dirty tricks.
The real question is: What is compelling Zardari to step down from the high ground he had initially acquired with his calls for national unity?

Tahmed,
There have been many people before him that have taken a stand and that includes ZAB himself. So, his services can be recognized by full SC bench or a NA reference. However, I agree with you that his reinstatement would be a great symbolic act in the present situation. But we really have to look beyond the symbols now.

As I said as long as the army is supporting Mush, it would be hard to remove him. Please read my post #72. So the first effort should be to create broad alliance that has solid 2/3 majority in both houses.

I think that is what Zardari is trying to achieve. And I also think he is playing this game possibly with NS consent.


Anyway, the story emerging from Sindh is that Sindh PPP is pretty much in revolt against Zardari's agreement with MQM. So lets wait and see what happens next.

A senoir Uncle of mine remembers the young, charismatic Zulficar Ali Bhutto as his classmate from the pre-partition days. My curious questions about what kind of a person Bhutto was in his young days does not result in any conversation except a slow and sad nod.

I do not feel like pushing for a response. It must be painful to think of that handsome, energetic, enigmatic personality of those young days, the meteoric public career that followed, and then not to think of the painfully sad way that it all ended. It is better to respect my Uncle's silence.

As you stroll from the Churchgate metro station towards Nariman Point in Mumbai, there stands the solid, white colored building that used to be the elegant Ritz hotel, once owned by the Bhuttos. That solid edifice may be one of the several lasting memories of ZAB for the surviving seniors of Mumbai, who perhaps still cannot but think of him with affection mixed with a generous sprinkling of awe and exasperation.

As to myself, my memories of him are from what I read in the newspapers, and watched in newsreels and TV broadcasts. I remember him most for my consternation at his strong stands against giving in to the mandate won by Sheikh Mujib. Somehow my impression is also that he was as key to the tragic events of 1971 as the military regime in Pakistan.

But the strongest visual memories are of his firebrand, emotional outburst followed by a walk out at the United Nations when he debated with India's Foreign Minister Swaran Singh, whose quiet demeanor looked insipid in comparison. It was quite a spectacle - and against the decorum traditionally expected on the floor of that august body, it was probably precedent-setting. What was it that was said in those debates, what the points and counter points were, I just do not remember. It was the phenonmenon of process overriding content at its best.

We who come from the subcontinent are sentimental and emotional people - I suppose content will always play second fiddle to emotions when we look at personalities and issues.

And Bhutto will always be remembered with strong emotions by his supporters, opponents, as well as neutrals who knew him. And there will always be admiration and affection for him, however grudging.

May his family - whatever remains of it, find some peace. Amen!

HP,

Thanks for both posts. Much obliged. Very incisive opinion.

If Chowdry bows out in exchange for comprehensive reforms in the Judicial system, then he should be ready to do that and the lawyers should also accept that!

I don't know about that. Chowdhry is a symbol. Minus-one will be a huge compromise which will be countermanded.

#75 Posted by HP

Anyway, the story emerging from Sindh is that Sindh PPP is pretty much in revolt against Zardari's agreement with MQM. So lets wait and see what happens next.

I think it was pretty evident today when PPP workers beat up Arbab Raheem and prevented him from taking oath in the Sindh Assembly.

#74 Posted by tahmed32,

I'm sorry my friend. Hamidm2 was right. CJ will not be restored. I'll add though 'without a revolution'. I think the bombs will start again ... soon ... a week at most.

#73 Essensaur

[But the strongest visual memories are of his firebrand, emotional outburst followed by a walk out at the United Nations when he debated with India's Foreign Minister Swaran Singh, whose quiet demeanor looked insipid in comparison. It was quite a spectacle - and against the decorum traditionally expected on the floor of that august body, it was probably precedent-setting. What was it that was said in those debates, what the points and counter points were, I just do not remember. It was the phenonmenon of process overriding content at its best.]

Sir, I do not wish to trample all over your obviously tender feeling for the ZAB of yore, but let’s be realistic – that U.N. speech was very symbolic of a whole bunch of “Pakistani” antics from those times!

And it was absolutely meaningless - it was not directed at the UN, but at his domestic constituency!

The realities were:

1. ZAB brought the whole Bangladesh independence event about by refusing to share power with the “dark skinned” Bengalis.

2. ZAB got off scot-free THAT time. He in fact benefited by being handed over the power on a platter.

It is a great testimony to the “brains” of the population in that part of the world that the main cause of a catastrophic event goes to the UN and cries dog-shitt in front of that bunch of jokers and expects anything to happen beyond a bit of tamasha. The funny thing is that it was Pakistan which had attacked India in early December 1971.

Perhaps it is something basic in that mindset – these folks expect that if they do enough “hai mere baap, hai meri amma!” then the world will see things their way – no matter how dumb a way it be!

It will be a long wait before that happens!