The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics

"to add to that, a truck with shipping container with a load of Quran-e-Pak was also burned down in the same vicinity as these factory workers.
The driver of the truck pleaded before the truck was set on fire and told the hoodlums that all it contains is several thousand copies of Quran-e-Pak yet it was set on fire."

Finally Pakistan has some people who just wont take the book on the face value...

That is the beauty of the political protesters, you bring the book...they will throw it out!

GT #304 actually i dont agree that "safety" or "security" is a relative or wishy-washy concept. There is a precise legal term ("habeas corpus") that is well understood around the world today and which is one very specific issue where the Chief Justice drew the line.

Gonzalez or Yoo or their genius boss Bush in the US, or the semi-literate "Commando" in Pakistan, may not understand this term. But better judgement is expected from a distinguished chowk poster like you, sir!! :-)

as for political correctness - again, there is a clear line between political incorrectness and mere rudeness. And the litmus test for this is: Would you be able to use a phrase to the face of someone bigger than you without risking a slap in the face in return? Hope this clarifies the distinction. :-)

#301 Posted by GT
“And from the unwashed in the rural sector. That will really be a great day.”

The rural sector is non-democratic. It is true everywhere and not just Pakistan. Weaker the rural sector vote, stringer the democracy would be.

Don’t disenfranchising them but make them move to the cities or bring industry to them.

#297 Posted by tahmed32
“I think you should watch some of the talk shows on geo or aajtv or dawn tv. They come across at least as insightful and well-mannered as anything you will find on US tv.”

That is correct but they are just a simple order away from being un-insightful. Historically, the media supports the govt. They have to work within the system. It is true not only for Pakistan but for all western democracies and India too.

Did the US media ever challenge the current admin over the fake reason for Iraq war? They never challenged the US admin over Vietnam. They will do a few things here and there for cya but nothing more than that.

In Pakistani media, just check how much media coverage the Information Minister gets compared to the other ministers in the govt.

Re: # 290
"Remember, media like the judiciary have to be the balancing act between executive and opposition, if they take sides then there will be no objectivity and trust will be compromised."

You said the most beautiful things as above, but the media in the end happens to be taking sides, and goes with the wind like "thali ka baigan" rolling to the side that tips down with its weight.

Re: # 293
to add to that, a truck with shipping container with a load of Quran-e-Pak was also burned down in the same vicinity as these factory workers.
The driver of the truck pleaded before the truck was set on fire and told the hoodlums that all it contains is several thousand copies of Quran-e-Pak yet it was set on fire.

tahmed sahib:

You would agree that "safety" is a subjective and relative concept. It is precisely because of this that the "army" is able to control politics in Pakistan. It is not much different in India. The Congress was able to do such a thing till very recently. It still hopes to do so. What is different in today's India is that many more parties are able to do so. This brings in political competition and the unwashed are slightly better off.

p.s. I like the term "unwashed". It gives a large set of people SOME identity. I am a bit against this "same-same" political correctness.

#301 and please dont use demeaning terms like "unwashed" for those not blessed with running hot and cold showers in the house like you. just be glad for your good fortune and leave it at that!!

in #300 below, that should be #294, not #292.

#295 Posted by HP:

".... These guys are not going away and I think they will become the lightening rod that will eventually help develop a democratic society in Pakistan. I hope in due course, they will have support from the students and the trade unions....."

And from the unwashed in the rural sector. That will really be a great day.

GT brother: please read #292 and then tell me what I have missed. Pakistanis are fighting for this very society based on laws and basic rights for all where this need to protect does not exist. mqm has chosen to fight for the status quo of dictatorship where no individual (regardless of ethnic group) is safe.

for an intelligent person like you, surely this cant be such an elusive concept!!

#294 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib:

Yes, the MQM indulges in ghoodaism and supports/supported the dictator. This same ghoondaism (burning people etc.) and support for the dictator also keeps the MQM's support base "safe" from the ghoondas of the PPP, JI etc. You cannot selectively condemn one group or the other .... actually, you can, but it is of no use. MQM will dissapear on its own, when the "NEED" to protect its support base dissapears. As long as Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi chauvanism exist and has the potential to be violent ... MQM, will exist and will be violent .... dictator or no dictator.

#294 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib:

Yes, the MQM indulges in ghoodaism and supports/supported the dictator. This same ghoondaism (burning people etc.) and support for the dictator also keeps the MQM's support base "safe" from the ghoondas of the PPP, JI etc. You cannot selectively condemn one group or the other .... actually, you can, but it is of no use. MQM will dissapear on its own, when the "NEED" to protect its support base dissapears. As long as Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi chauvanism exist and has the potential to be violent ... MQM, will exist and will be violent .... dictator or no dictator.

HP #295 I think you should watch some of the talk shows on geo or aajtv or dawn tv. They come across at least as insightful and well-mannered as anything you will find on US tv. And also remember that scores of Pakistani journalists have lost their lives the past few years as they have sought to cover what musharraf would like to keep hidden.

I fully agree with you on the key role played by the lawyers in Pakistan. They have proven to the world that Pakistanis are second to none when it comes to standing up for principle and the rule of law. God bless them all and particularly the Chief Justice - who may not speak english as fluently as many "desi babus" in drawing rooms in rawalpindi or new york, but who understands the difference between a civilized society and an uncivilized one better than them.

Re: # 286 HP
Your arguments are methodical and logical to a certain extent(i wish i have the flair and consistency to write something like this).But your conclusions are flawed.Army understands its limitations and it also understands the importance of strong civilian institutions in todays world,but it has no faith in the intellectual capacity of our political leadership and you cannot blame them for that.Army has taken an ardous job of social engineering that it has taken before after the the death of Zia.The difference is this time army is more savy and chances are it will do better.
All this crap about shift in the stratigic doctrine of pak army is utter nonsense.pak army is trained for territorial war with offencive and defencive capabilities and it has no plan to change that,although it wants to acquire additional capabilities to fight insurgency.There is nothing to negotiate with talibans or neo-talibans.Within next few months there is going to be a vicious war with these talibans and you are going to need all the capabilities that you have or you wish to have.

#291 Posted by rf786
Ada HP comes out with great posts on Pakistan,
#289 Posted by IB
Ada HP is Ada when hes thinking without a Sindhi Cap On!

Thanks arif and IB… Different strokes for different folks.

About the media being the critic. That is pure bull! The Pakistani media is not mature enough to provide any constructive criticism or even act as political opposition. They are in the whole thing to make some bucks and have very little interest in the real problems facing the country. I hope they do a good job of just providing the info and do it honestly.

The real opposition to the govt. is sitting inside with the govt. The first is the army with a mighty weight and the second is the MLn which would keep the PPP government in check and cut their feet off if they (MLn) get a whiff of any move that does not sit well with them.

The only opposition outside of the government is the lawyer movement. These guys are not going away and I think they will become the lightening rod that will eventually help develop a democratic society in Pakistan. I hope in due course, they will have support from the students and the trade unions.

#281 IB bhai: at this time, as i wrote in #257, Pakistanis have for a full year been fighting to save their country from a military dictator, and for a society where justice is blind and the basic rights of all are respected. "Basic rights" and the "rule of law" are for every individual - not for this ethnic group or that religious group or this economic class or that economic class.

if musharraf had succeeded in his original intention of retaining absolute control by being head of the army as well as president, what makes you think that your basic rights would have been any safer than those of the poor people of baluchistan and nwfp whom he kidnapped and "disappeared" as part of his strategy for staying in power? what makes you think the military would not have continued to be the major beneficiary of musharraf's illegal rule??

mqm has chosen to side on the side of the dictator and indeed to engage in murder of peaceful demonstrators on may 12. dont be fooled by the sweet talk of mqm - if they dont care for the lives or rights of innocent people who happen to belong to some other party or group, rest assured this sweet talk would be replaced by the ugly face of ghoondaism in no time. if the rest of pakistan let them get away with it.