The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics

tahmed (#376),

No need get testy or to make excuses; I only pointed out weaknesses, as I see them, in your views.

While you are marveling wonders of the information age and media access, ponder over how fools like you got conned into supporting a pointless, brutal war. No doubt - wrong information, in the hands of a fool, is a dangerous thing. And you are living proof of this tragedy

(You may want to re-read the above and ponder; of course, getting upset with me is always an option ...)

Moving on …

I’ve discussed religious issues with you in the past as they came up (last prophet, status of Muhammad and his wives according to Quran, etc.), have taken you to the task, and made you rethink. In any case, an issue is an issue - whether religious, or political etc., so I fail to see your point. I think your sarcasm is misplaced and a reflection of your own angst over some bygone issue.

So your “I am not interested” line comes across as a lame excuse; it underscores your failure at handling counter-viewpoints. But if you are going to put your foot in your mouth, don’t be surprised if I point it out to you every now and then - that’s all (grin).

dm #382

You are addressing someone who, among other things, seems to be under the impression that all internet traffic is routed through computers located in the United States. His 'reasoning', such as it is, that the US is the world leader in promoting free speech, etc., appears to be predicated on that incorrect assumption.

He does not know that he does not know. He will now triumphantly repeat this bogus argument, in one form or another, for the next half-a-dozen years. Attempts to enlighten him are unlikely to be successful.

Urstruly#381:

There are no innocent parties on Kashmir. The first blame must go to Jinnah saheb who had insisted that the people of Princely states will not have any say in determining their future, which would be the sole prerogative of the Prince. This was the basis of the Pakistan maintaining its claim over the Hindu majority state of Hyderabad right until 1960s.

As regards, the CPM, I have earlier criticised the Congress leadership for rejecting it but have had to change my views after reading the details of that document. The Plan had a poison pill in it which could be swallowed only with a huge leap of faith which was a scarce commodity during those days of mutual suspicion and mistrust. It gave the Muslim majority provinces the option to secede from the Confedration after ten years; to make matters worse, ML leaders were shouting that this was a transitionary step towards full independence. Under these circumstances, if you were a paid consultant, you too would have advised the Congress to give half Punjab and Bengal to Jinnah rather than the high likelihood of losing all Muslim majority provinces down the road.

Since you mention Canada, the situation is indeed quite similar with Parti Quebecois seeking a separate Quebec based on its two nation theory based on language. Thus when it held a referendum on sovereignty association with English Canada, the federalists saw it as a step towards independence and said NO to the proposal.

P.S. If you have crossed the border, welcome to my country.

#379 dost_mittar

[Ghori would not have succeeded against Prithvi Raj Chauhan if there was no Jai Chand to support him.]

Here are the facts:

Ghori INVADED Chauhan's kingdom.
Ghori was defeated by Prithvi Raj Chauhan and brought to him in chains.
Ghori was pardoned and let go.
Ghori then attacked him back in the middle of the night.

So Ghori was a coward (because he attacked in the night) and a backstabber (because Chauhan had pardoned and let him go). This is in keeping with Muslim traditions. Read up on Muhammad attacking his enemies when they were resting and unarmed, and also from behind.

Read up on how the Pakis sneaked in and attacked and took over POK just AFTER signing a treaty with India about the instrument of accession in Kashmir.

[Look, I am no fan of political islam but muslims and hindus coexisted peacefully, if not integrated, in what is now Pakistan for a long time. Socially and culturally, there is not much difference between how my parents and Urstruly's parents lived in Northwest Punjab. If you see some of the Hindi films of 1950s and 1960s, you will see the Hindu migrant from Peshawar dressed in the typical pathan turban and salwar.]

You may call it peacefully, but there was always an undercurrent of enmity coming from the Urstruly-types amongst Muslims. This is precisely why Hindus choose to migrate out of Muslim-majority countries over time. Because this undercurrent is always there. The numbers speak for themselves. The population of Hindus in Pakiland has dwindled to almost nothing, while the percetage, as well as absolute numbers of Muslims in India is increasing every day. Not only that, there is much whining and moaning and groaning about their "sorry plight".

[Like it or not, Pakistan is going to be India's neighbour and one always sleeps more peacefully with a friendly than a hostile neighbour.]

I would sleep much more peacefully with a hostile neighbor and army battalions along the border ready to impart a good a$$-kicking to anyone who dares come across. All this bhai-bhai talk is misleading. Look at Cyprus. First the Turkish ruler imported Turks into Cyprus (this same guy killed 200000 Greeks AFTER winning the battle, as a lesson). Then the island was divided. So the Muslims have only 50% of the land. But this is not enough. So they are using deceit. They are chanting Turkish-Greek bhai bhai and wanting to break down the separating wall. In a few years, it will be 70% Muslim, then 90% Muslim. A repeat of the story in Lebanon.

I trust Muslims as individuals, depending on who they are. But not Muslims as a group. Muslims as a group are dangerous for humanity.

tahmed#382:

Yes, I think of the Internet as the global and not a US media. The US may have invented the Internet but it can no more claim its ownership than you can claim ownership of Hind-se (numerals) because they were invented by your forefathers.

#381 Urstruly

[Unfortunately, this hostility is because of the cruel Indian occupation of Kashmir.]

Well Urstruly bhai,

Look at it from this perspective - under the Indian rule in Kashmir, the Muslims don't pay Dhimmi-tax, are not discriminated against in jobs in Kashmir (actually, they are preferred). No mosques have been destroyed, and the stones used to create temples instead. Instead, Kashmiri Pandits, the original inhabitants, have been forced to leave by the hundreds of thousands.

Now compare that with Muslim rule in India. Foreigners came into our 100% Hindu land, imposed the Dhimmi-tax, destroyed and looted temples, and built mosques in their place, had hugely preferential policies for Muslims in employment - the list is very long.

If it was up to me, any Muslim who utters a peep about Indian rule in kashmir would be beheaded. Slowly.

Re: # 382
MQM = Muthida Qaumi Movement , defender of ahle-zuban.

What is MQM brothers? Mohajir Quota Movement?

Re: # 379 DM

Unfortunately, this hostility is because of the cruel Indian occupation of Kashmir. But not only that an overwhelmingly significant Indian intelligentia wishes to see pakistan as a failed state - whether or not it falls back into the laps of India. There was a concerted effort by Congress in the early days of Partition and which lasted for decades, to create this mindset in general Indian populace. The main reason for that is that they (congress) wanted to divert attention from their own failure to keep India united. The truth is as galring as the sun in the sky that Muslim League had agreed to the Cabinet Mission Plan, thus keeping India united. But it was due to un-relenting position of Hindu leadersship that they wanted to assign Muslims the status of 2nd class subjugates. Quaid-e-Azam's demand for constitutional parity was not a new animal. Canada has been practicing that for decades already. Rest is history.

The people of Pakistan will never compromise on the status of Kashmir. They have already compromised once when they agreed to Indias proposal of a plebicite and got cheated by Ram ram chanting knife-under-the-armpit baniya. It does not matter what our disgraceful leaders say. At the end of the day they and their children have top live among us- now don't they?

dm #378 this is what you wrote in #347 "I think that the reporting of the US media becomes quite easy to explain if you are willing to accept that it is controlled by the pro-israeli lobby in the US."

I told you the above was true only if you assume that the internet is not part of the US media, and presented you with some realities concerning the internet to this end. What "glaring flaw" do you see in this?

Without either questioning or acknowledging what I wrote above, you simply claim: " I never suggested that the Internet is controlled by the israeli lobby"!! This is hardly the way to move a discussion forward.


As for Iraq, how do you know that the US media deliberately misled the US public? If you are privy to malintent in the minds of people you have probably never even met, I think it is best not to jump to conclusions regarding their intentions.

ajeya:

Ghori would not have succeeded against Prithvi Raj Chauhan if there was no Jai Chand to support him. Look, I am no fan of political islam but muslims and hindus coexisted peacefully, if not integrated, in what is now Pakistan for a long time. Socially and culturally, there is not much difference between how my parents and Urstruly's parents lived in Northwest Punjab. If you see some of the Hindi films of 1950s and 1960s, you will see the Hindu migrant from Peshawar dressed in the typical pathan turban and salwar.
Like it or not, Pakistan is going to be India's neighbour and one always sleeps more peacefully with a friendly than a hostile neighbour.

tahmed32#377:


The flaw in the logic is so glaring that it did not need any pointing out from me. I never suggested that the Internet is controlled by the israeli lobby. Nobody can control it even if they wanted, as has been learnt by the Chinese govt. and other control freaks. And it is also true that the US population does not consider Arabs to be angels, neither do I for that matter. But the point was very simple that the US media deliberately misled the public on Iraq. If the US anchormen and women and the newspaper editors were doing nothing more than reading the newspapers of other countries, they would have known that the US govt. was doing a fraud on its public, it obviously helped someone that they concealed the facts and who was that someone? certainly not the United States of America!

As regards the Indian media and the Kashmir issue, the Indian media is not acting on behalf of a foreign country's lobby. Indians know quite well that the majority of Kashmiris do not want to be part of India and they are certainly aware of the human rights abuses of the Indian security forces there, thanks to the reporting by the Indian media itself, but the Indian public is unfortunately immune to human rights abuses. As hamidm pointed out, we are quite happy to see an accused being put on a donkey and a black face and paraded through the streets. But the Indian media, like the rest of the population, are a chauvinistic lot and have no sympathy for the Kashmiri separatists; most Indians would be quite happy if separatists were pushed out of Kashmir and replaced by Indians from other parts of the country. Indeed, it would have been better for all concerned if Indians had done that in 1948 as Pakistanis did by driving out/converting all non-muslims from their part of Kashmir.

dm: hiding behind sarcasm (even if provided by sattar2) is not something I expected of you. Please either indicate any flaw in my logic, or make your definition of "media" explicit, or else acknowledge that what you said was based on the conventional wisdom of what constitutes "media".

Even if I switch back to this limited view of the "media", to say that the US media is controlled by the the pro-Israeli lobby indicates a lack of understanding of even the traditional forms of media in the US.

Have you ever considered, e.g., the fact that in the US the majority of the population does not buy outright the Arab argument that in the Israeli-Arab dispute the Arabs are the saints and the Israelis are the devils? Have you ever reflected on the fact that compared to any other country in the world you are familiar with (India, e.g.) the press similarly reflects the perspective of the general population?? Thus, e.g., how many newspapers in India do you see presenting the view that India should perhaps let the Kashmiris decide for themselves if they wish to be part of India??

sattar2: I had advised you some time back that I was not interested in wasting time with you. My ignoring your recent posts to me should have been a reminder of that. While greatly flattered by your interest in continued "discussions" despite these reminders, and despite the fact that you are commenting on politics not religion now, I must humbly remind you again of my lack of interest in wasting my precious chowk time with you. Have a nice day, live long and prosper. :-)

Another Habib Jalib poem I love which is quite relevent in today(s) context is a punjabi one..
I hope you guys enjoy it..

Bootan Di Sarkar

(Panjabi)
Dakuan da je saath na dinda pind da pehredar
Aj paireen zanjeer na hund jit na hundi har
Paggan apne gal wich pa lo turo pet de bhar
Chadh jaye te mushkil lehndi bootan di sarkar

Ghazal
by Habib Jalib

Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai
Lekin in donon mulkon mein Amrika dera hai

Aid ki gandam kha kar ham ne kitney dhokey khai hain
Poochh na hamne Amrika ke kitne naaz uthai hain

Phir bhi ab tak wadi-e gul ko sangeenon ne ghera hai
Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai

Khan Bahadur chhodna hoga ab to saath Angrezon ka
Ta bah gareban aa pahuncha hai phir se hath Angrezon ka

Macmilan tera na hua to Kenedy kab tera hai
Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai

Yeh dharti hai asal mein, pyare, mazdooron dahqanon ki
Is dharti par chal na sakegi marzi chand gharanon ki

Zulm ki rat rahegi kab tak ab nazdik savera hai
Hindustan bhi mera hai aur Pakistan bhi mera hai



Pakistan Ka Matlab Kya?

Roti, kapda aur dawa
Ghar rehne ko chhota sa
Muft mujhe talim dila
Mein bhi Musalmaan hoon wallah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Amrika se mang na bhik
Mat kar logon ki tazhik
Rok na janhoori tehrik
Chhod na azadi ki rah
Pakistan ka matlab hai kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Khet waderon se le lo
Milen luteron se le lo
Mulk andheron se le lo
Rahe na koi Alijah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Sarhad, Sindh, Baluchistan
Teenon hain Panjab ki jaan
Aur Bangal hai sab ki aan
Aai na un ke lab par aah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…

Baat yehi hai bunyadi
Ghasib ki ho barbadi
Haq kehte hain haq agah
Pakistan ka matlab kya
La Ilaha Illalah…