The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics

#433 kindly re-read #430 and then tell me what part you have difficulty understanding.

zeemax: Fine. But, in light of the questions I had for you below, do you think they can hold the ground?

... no doubt they also have the Pakistan Ambassador to Afghanistan, who was abducted in Khyber Agency a month ago.

tahmed32,

Okay, more details now re this Lashkar-e-Islam. It is a Lal-Masjid style vigilante group numbering some 10,000 which has captured the Afghanistan-Pakistan highway and closed it since 5 days, and fighting with the Shinwaris and the Kukikhels for closure of the narcotics trade in Khyber Agency on the edge of Peshawar near Bara markets. They already have control of Landi Kotal and Jamrud.

To even think some people were contemptuous of a bunch of teenage girls in Burqas ...

tahmed,

You buckle too quickly when taken to the task. This makes you a fool indeed, but for an entirely different reason than the one you cited :-)

If nothing else, ponder over how you yourself were conned into supporting a brutal, sorry war ... all through manipulated information. Till you do that, please, no more lecutres on marvels of the information age ...

#427 GT

[Thus, today, competition for political space has lead to "Kashmiri Nationalism" being defined solely on the basis of Islam across the entire political spectrum.]

Um, professor, WHEN did "Kashmiri Nationalism" have Hindus as active participants?

Eh?

[And it is precisely because of this that a basis for "negotiation" has eluded the "problem".]

I think you Muslims should stop dreaming and get this - THERE WILL BE NO NEGOTIATIONS. Not now, not ever. Read up on the history of Kashmir. You cheap arab-wannabees are not getting it. The only leverage you guys had was uncle Sam when he needed you. Those days are gone. In fact, we Indians should get back what is rightly ours - POK. And if the BJP comes to power and stays in power long enough, hopefully some politician will make this his "issue". It will be a VERY popular issue with the Indian public.

The Nilamata Purana describes the Valley's origin from the waters, Ka means "water" and Shimir means "to desiccate". Hence, Kashmir stands for "a land desiccated from water". There is also a theory which takes Kashmir to be a contraction of Kashyap-mira or Kashyapmir or Kashyapmeru, the "sea or mountain of Kashyapa", the sage who is credited with having drained the waters of the primordial lake Satisar, that Kashmir was before it was reclaimed. The Nilamata Purana gives the name Kashmira to the Valley considering it to be an embodiment of Uma and it is the Kashmir that the world knows today. The Kashmiris, however, call it Kashir, which has been derived phonetically from Kashmir, as pointed out by Aurel Stein in his introduction to the Rajatarangini.

In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the 12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. This was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura name which has been plausibly identified with the Kao-1r6.nupos of Hecataeus (apud Stephen of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44). Kashmir is the country meant also by Ptolemy's Kao-ir,~pta.

Kashmir was one of the major centre of Sanskrit scholars. According to Mahabharata evidence,[3] the Kambojas had ruled over Kashmir during epic times and that it was a Republican system of government under the Kamboj.[4] The capital city of Kashmir (Kamboj) during epic times was Rajapura e.g. Karna-Rajapuram-gatva-Kambojah-nirjitastava.[5][6] Epic Rajapura has been identified with modern Rajauri.[7] Later, the Panchalas are stated to have established their sway. The name Peer Panjal, which is a part of modern Kashmir, is a witness to this fact. Panjal is simply a distorted form of the Sanskritic tribal term Panchala. The Muslims had prefixed the word " peer " to it in memory of one Siddha Faqir and the name thence-after is said to have changed into Peer Panjal.

The Mauryan emperor Ashoka is often credited with having founded the city of Srinagar. Kashmir was once a Buddhist seat of learning, perhaps with the Sarvāstivādan school dominating. East and Central Asian Buddhist monks are recorded as having visited the kingdom. In the late 4th century AD, the famous Kuchanese monk Kumārajīva, born to an Indian noble family, studied Dīrghāgama and Madhyāgama in Kashmir under Bandhudatta. He later becoming a prolific translator who helped take Buddhism to China. His mother Jīva is thought to have retired to Kashmir. Vimalākṣa, a Sarvāstivādan Buddhist monk, travelled from Kashmir to Kucha and there instructed Kumārajīva in the Vinayapiṭaka.



[India - Pakistan relations are actually a second order problem. And a "nation" like India is not ready for multiple "constitutions", at least not for the next 10 years.]

Um, professor, so AFTER the next 10 years, India might be "ready for multiple constitutions"?

[If the BJP comes to power, it will show (false) sympathy by acting as if it is in favor of a referendum. With the added clause that all Indian Muslims, and only Indian Muslims vote.]

This "referendum" thing is only a Muslim wet dream. As an Indian I can tell you, ANY party that does this, will NEVER come to power again. I think instead of having all these wet dreams, Muslims should migrate to some place they feel they can identify with. Move to Kazaksthan, for example. WE DON"T WANT YOU. LEAVE. WE ARE TIRED OF THE CONSTANT MOANING AND GROANING AND COMPLAINING. JUST GO. IF YOU ARE DESCENDED FROM FOREIGN BARBARIANS ANYWAY, ALL THE MORE REASON TO LEAVE. JUST LEAVE. YOU GUYS ARE LIKE PARASITES IN ANY DAMN COUNTRY. SUCKING THE COUNTRY HOLLOW FROM INSIDE WITH THE CONSTANT NON-STOP VIOLENCE AND DISSATISFACTION AND
DIVISIVE ACTIVITIES. IN EVERY COUNTRY. PEOPLE OF NO OTHER RELIGION ARE LIKE YOU GUYS. NO ONE. I HAVE HAD PARSEE FRIENDS, CHRISTIAN FRIENDS - NOBODY IS LIKE YOU GUYS. YOU GUYS ARE LIKE MINDLESS INDOCTRINATED ZOMBIES PROGRAMMED TO SPREAD MISERY AND UNHAPPINESS. WON'T LET ANYONE BE HAPPY.

WHAT A DAMN CURSE!

zeemax #425 (shaking my head from side to side) Why do you persist in believing that the Taliban are any match for Pakistani forces?

Is there a Taliban Air Force?
Is there a Taliban Tank Division (or even a single, moth-eaten Taliban Tank?
Is there any popular support for the Taliban?
Is there any international support for the Taliban?
Is there a moral cause that the Taliban are fighting for that any sane individual could relate to?

Reflect on these please.

sattar2 429: if it is foolish to not get into a "discussion" with you, then i am indeed a fool. Have nice day. :-)

tahmed (#403),

Don’t blame me, you fool; your own posts underscore your credibility gap. And you still seem hung up on Islamic issues after all this time …

Your reasoning that … ”since Chowk is a part of media, and Chowk is not controlled by anyone, this proves that media has no outside influence” … says it all. Are you for real?

Information you were fed was manipulated at the highest levels … and you got conned into supporting a brutal, useless war. It is now pointless for you to discuss virtues of media coverage and free speech. Reflect on this, you idiot …

You see the tree but not the forest. And that’s the travesty of (drum roll) … worrying too much about the future of mankind :-) May I suggest some Prozac instead?

treetop #404

["Its not the lack of arguments its the fear that you will dig out some lenthy article from some where or write a monologue of twisted logic that iwill have to read unwillingly"]

Yeah. It's either that, or you don't have an argument left.

Lying/deception and Islam are synonymous.

#424 Posted by ferozk:

"The Kashmir issue will settled not because the people wish it, but because it has ceased to be important in their lives."

The above statement is based on two assumptions: (a) The Kashmir issue CAN be settled; (b) It CAN cease to be important in people's lives.

Both assumptions are perhaps valid in the long run, something that we do not care about. The pertinent question, therefore is, whether these assumptions are valid in the short run, say in the next 10 years or so. The answer is NO.

1. The unwashed Kashmiri individual does not give a fig as to whether Kashmir belongs to India or Pakistan. This is as long as her day to day life is undisturbed. An important part of this day to day life her religion. It defines her social network (I usually call networks "tribes") and provides hope for the future. Hope is what allows her to live a dignified life and we know that dignity is something that one does not part with readily. A perceived threat, i.e. the threat need not necessarily be real, to her religion is therefore a threat to her socio-economic network and dignity.

2. It is a common ploy of opposition parties/politicians, in most democracies, to try to come to power by differentiating themselves from those who presently wield power. For example Obama and Hillary may not have many political differences to talk about. But by drawing on the fact that one's opponent is a Washington insider, one tries to impress on the fact that he/she (given a chance) can achieve something "better" than what one has at present. This need not be true only in democracies, but let us stick to it since this is the most optimistic scenario. In India it is no different. Except for the fact that like the Kashmiris, mentioned in 1., almost all Indians care for their socio-economic networks which are often based on caste/religion/language platforms. Of late, regional parties have come to power in different parts of India on platforms based on caste and language. The differences between the center and periphery in India, a multi caste/religion country, is thus more real than in the US. Moreover, the regional parties have persisted. This implies that they have provided sustenance to the networks in their states. Otherwise, they would have died a democratic death. I do not see them vanishing in the next 10 years or so. These parties will struggle for their existence. In particular, they will make sure that local networks do not get swallowed up by broader "markets". They won't succeed in the long run, but they are here to stay for the next 10 years or so.

3. Kashmir is similar to the rest of India in the sense of 2. They were perhaps the first to differentiate themselves from the "center" on the basis of "Kashmiri Nationalism" or language. But Kashmiris can also differentiate themselves from the center on the basis of religion, another factor that sustains local networks. Coupled is the fact that a certain brand of political ideology is strongly woven into (or is being woven into) what stands for Islam today. Thus, today, competition for political space has lead to "Kashmiri Nationalism" being defined solely on the basis of Islam across the entire political spectrum. Not only in Kashmir, but all over India. This is going to stay in the short run, just like regional politics is going to stay in India.

4. But where is the problem? After all a regional party called, say, the Islamic Party of Kashmir can be formed and it can function like the DMK functions in Tamil Nadu and there would be no Kashmir "problem". The issue is that today's brand of Islam will ask for a "constitution" of their own. And it is precisely because of this that a basis for "negotiation" has eluded the "problem". India - Pakistan relations are actually a second order problem. And a "nation" like India is not ready for multiple "constitutions", at least not for the next 10 years.

5. Above, I have given you the theory. Based on it let me make a prediction. The usual law and order problems, Pakistan's interference, Urstruly's rants etc. are 10 year predictions that even arjun can make. Here is my prediction: If the BJP comes to power, it will show (false) sympathy by acting as if it is in favor of a referendum. With the added clause that all Indian Muslims, and only Indian Muslims vote.

Re: # 413 zee

Well - it says, the hellfires will be "curbed"... does not say it will be stopped... and you know yankees, they lie and deceive all the time... so don't get your hopes up...

But you may get the $7 bn... that's the blood money...

tahmed32,

But in any case, I think it may be too late. There's a new group named Lashkar-e-Islam which appears to have split from Pakistani Taliban, taken over Khyber Agency, and there's now fighting around Hyatabad, Peshawar. Residents have vacated Hyatabad (If you know Peshawar, you will know Hyatabad is in Peshawar).

Or maybe it's a tactic by Taliban to encircle Peshawar from both the Kohat end as well as the Khyber pass end. This is as of last night. Not many details yet.

re: Dost_Mittar

The Kashmir issue will settled not because the people wish it, but because it has ceased to be important in their lives. I have no doubt that it will solved, but it might be a big surprise to the patriots on both sides that they will not get all they had hoped for in the matter. The most logical outcome will be to formalize the present status quo - the Line of Control - into an international border and end the issue for once and for all.

As to my old hometown, isn't the snow a bit late? Then again, I remember the snow in late May also...

BTW; I was there when Trudeau (sp?)and Levasque (sp?) were battling it out and was south of the border, when the second plebiscite was held and thank God, the rest of the nation did not buy into a federal version of Bill 101.

Ciao

#421 Posted by tahmed32,

Really? I thought he was a great proponent of daisy cutters. Or maybe by that he meant the gardner's tool for pruning the daisies in his front patch.

re: HP

I owe you a reply and I will post as soon as I can figure out the new loadshedding schedule and have some time to frame a proper reply to your generous explanation.

The problem is that when you try to squeeze in words between power outages, the intent is often garbled. :)

Ciao