The ‘shoey’ Side of Politics

tahmed,
I never said that Pakistan has pulled back from the brink of democracy. I said that PPPP has pulled back from the brink of a revolution. I hope you dont have your HIGHS?

Romair,
Simplistic arguements wont do. In Musharraf's tenure, military corparatism in Pakistan has taken a turn for the worse and now Intelligence Agencies patrol the society and military itself. A Patrimonial Gaurd exclusive to the President has already taken place and the name of the game is, 'controlled democracy for the BAFOON Politicians'. This appears Zardari's preferred option and not NS....I do not agree on your comments on AWT etc neither do I endorse the views of MilINC. Cicero must not be killed for bad verses.

It is clear now why BB gave a limited support to CJ. She only wanted to go to a point in support of this movement insofar it served to put pressure on Mush to negotiate. Purists were never her endearment.

tahmed writes "The two can coexist as a healthy counterweight to one another in all provinces"

A great recipe to enhance military rule by creating a stalemate that enhance the status quo and plays in the hands of the military. His answer shows that he does not have a clue about any of the issues whatsoever. Musharraf did not abuse his uniform he acted in accordance with the requirements that have shaped the Pakistan military as an institution- if he had not, he would never have reached the heights (of tyranny and dictatorship) he reached. The military is neck deep in politics, no one person can extract it and certainly not one appointed by a dictator to its pinnacle. If it is standing down explicitly you can be damn sure that its pulling the strings implicitly....

HP #503 you make a number of good points.

A. "Zardari, when he bad mouths the Lawyers is actually digging his own grave." Agreed. He seems to be almost jealous of the hard-earned respect the lawyers, and that is not just being small-hearted by foolish as well - even his own rank and file have had to take a stand against him on this core issue.

B. I dont think it is totally correct to say that PPP has its base in Sindh. PPP has a natural base in other provinces too among the poor with its left-of-center economic agenda. PML is more right-of-center. The two can coexist as a healthy counterweight to one another in all provinces.

C. I am not sure if the army is in any mood to play games in politics at least at this time. They realize how low their stock has gone due to musharraf's abuse of the uniform.

later....

hamidm (if you are not at the golf course): looks like the "droopy eyed judge" is about to be restored, along with the scores of other principled judges. and guess what happens when 100 honest men join the parliament in moving democracy forward!!

btw, as for general "hosni mubarak", he is no longer even making the pretense of clinging to power which had already slipped away when he was kicked out of the army - and is now merely begging to be kept on as a hollow figurehead..

Resolution on 23rd
Abrar Saeed
ISLAMABAD - Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani would hand down an executive order for the restoration of the superior courts judges, including the Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, on April 23 or 25, following the tabling and passage of the resolution by the National Assembly in this regard, sources privy to the development disclosed to TheNation.
The sources further disclosed that April 23 is the definite date for the tabling and the passage of the resolution but the executive order may be issued on April 25 (Friday).

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Apr-2008/21/index2.php

By the way Ferozk has no clue when he says that it is a different army now. The army is very much the same, it is just the face at the top that is different, and if the face at the top tries to change the structure of the military, or iterferes with the timing and motives of their real masters he will be got rid of by a military conspiracy itself, conning the civilians to change the leadership or making someone go home early as has happened in the past, and those civilian leaders that have been conned by the military to interfere in its leadership on their behalf have always regretted their decision. You forget that the worst dictator in this country's history appointed the current leader of the military because they both thought in similar dictatorial fashion. The election results were as they were because the motive was to coopt the people's emotions and not to add fuel to the fire by a Q victory...

Pakistan was INDEED pulled back from democratic changes when the military coopted the current elections by channeling people's emotions in a benign direction rather than where they were headed, a war between the public and the military... as usual tahmed has no clue about anything, the only "pie" is in his face....seems like I'm on a roll today...read the golfing and hamid comment on the shrink's article interacts!.....

#502 ijazgul: the concept of a "perfect democracy" is as pie-in-the-sky as the concept of a "perfect society". so it is meaningless for you to say that Pakistan has pulled back from the brink of democracy.

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Sattar writes about tahmed "Fools like you got conned into supporting a useless war..."

Tahmed wasn't conned into anything. He supported the war because he supports the decisions of the white elite unconditionally. He considers them god in the flesh. If the white man were to murder his mama he would not say a single word against him, on the other hand he would offer his son and daughter to be sacrificed by them as well. He suffers from a disease that cannot be explained by reason. There was no conning just unconditional support, rationalizations and then when totally stumped, silence and insults against his opponents. You should know this snake better.........

bulleya writes "......if pml-n and ppp simply stay united and do nothing else......the military power will crumble.......they simply need to vote in the same direction on matters related to the military......that's it......there will be, absolutely, nothing the military can do........"

That is a totally ignorant comment, united or not, the military that does not respect the constitution or the lives of people or justice and the rule of law will use its "gun" if need be regardless of the unity of the politicians. Your picture of a helpless military that is invited in or finds a niche within the bickering of politicians is hallmark of a military apologist that want to mask military strength. If the military is so powerless then the civilians can easily reform it why do you need restructuring? The fact is restructuring is needed because the current military has warped into a behemoth that after destroying distorting the institutional structure of the country is fast headed towards destroying this nation state and having its people butchered...

bulleya writes ".....what the military has is unity.....and it is because of this unity that it overpowers every other force that is attempting power in pakistan..."

You forgot the guns, the military has the guns, and unless bigger guns stop them they will not refrain from massacring the entire population if that is what is required to attain their objectives...

--at an abstract level, the following steps need to be taken place to restructure the complete military set up in pakistan......it should be kept in mind that, while, many, if not most of the institutions - civil, govt. and private - have changed since 1947, the military remains totally unchanged.......

--- non-military affairs
1. privatize all 94 business entities owned by the military, through the army welfare trust, fauji foundation, shaheen foundation and bahria foundation

2. allocate all military lands to the provincial govt., so that the military itself does not own any land in pakistan, and only has land allocated to it by the provincial govt......

3. bring the military budget under the ministry of finace, which should debate it in the assembly

4. appoint a very strong civilian oversight committee, from the national assembly and senate, over all military affairs.....all promotions of maj gens and lt. gens. should be approved by this committee for the next ten years.....after which this process should be discontinued and military chiefs should appoint all generals.....

5. bring military law under the civilian judiciary.....all court martials should have a civilian judge.....all military law should be authored by civilians.......and all overlaps which give military authority in civilian areas, should be abolished......

6. physically, the military should be moved out of all major cities, and reloacated in distant cantonments - as it is done in canada and to a great extent in the usa......

military headquarters should be moved from islamabad/pindi to pannu aqil, shorkot port qasim etc......all corps headquarters etc. should be moved out of karachi, lahore and rawalpindi.....all airbases should be moved out of pindi (chaklala), karachi (masroor, shah-rahe-faisal, malir and korangi).....the complete navy sits in karachi, and it should be moved to port qasim etc.....a separate military city can be set up outside karachi, towards the indian coastline to defend karachi......

-- restructuring of the military itself....

will discuss in another reply......it needs to be revamped from pma to the rank of generals......

ijaz_gul #: ...i am always amazed at how powerful everyone imagines the military to be.....

...as i have always argued on this site, the military is not more powerful than the judiciary, the civil society or even the politicians.....

.....what the military has is unity.....and it is because of this unity that it overpowers every other force that is attempting power in pakistan.......

......the moment any other group shows an equal amount of unity, the military will back down......up til now, the military had been able to divide the judiciary, the politicians, the media and civil society, etc......

......however, now, pakistan has matured....the judiciary did not divide totally........the lawyers stuck with the judiciary....and the military is on the verge of losing this battle....in fact, the military has jumped out of the battle, knowing it will lose, and has left musharraf on his own....people should keep in mind that kayani had also accompanied musharraf when they called the chief justice to the army house.......

.......the military has not been able to divide civil society.......the civil society played its cards smartly...instead of coming out into the streets, it waited till the elections and voted out the military, in a comprehensive and historic manner......

......the media did not divide either......

.....this leaves the most important group, and that is the politicians.....in the end it is a battle between the politicians and military for who will run the country......

up til now, the military has played hell with the politicians.......since the death of jinnah.....it has very easily divided the political forces in pakistan; playing one against the other.....all the major poltical leaders of pakistan, have come out interactions with the army......bhutto, nawaz, altaf, maulvis etc......

.....this is the final frontier.....the military has tried like hell to divide the politicians again....it succeeded in dividing pml into two, and ppp, partially, into two.......

.......however, now pml-n and ppp are united; if for no other reason, because they see a common enemy......i am sure the military and bureacracy is trying like anything to divide them.........

......if pml-n and ppp simply stay united and do nothing else......the military power will crumble.......they simply need to vote in the same direction on matters related to the military......that's it......there will be, absolutely, nothing the military can do........

nothing at all.......the military isn't as powerful as people think......it just seems so because it has very strong traditions, which keep it united........

HP,
Yea. Very logical. Thats what I thought.
Cheerios

#502 Posted by ijaz_gul

Sorry, I did not read this post on Beena's board. I haven't even seen many posts on that board. I will check them now.

A. Will BBs policy of Partial appeasement, partial defiance and partial compromise serve the cause of democracy in the long run, or will it provide a germination ground for the proliferators of democracy to become stronger? This view is in contrast to the Purist view of the intellectuals.

There is no way to democracy in Pakistan w/o first working on sharing the powers with the army. So this half cil-Half Mil is the starting point. BB had the right idea. The problem is that the military half is stronger and there is no guarantee that the military would not revoke the agreement. The movements like the Lawyers movement, out of control media and a vigilant middle class can keep the army honest. This requires time and an effort on the part of the civilians to keep the public in the loop. Both AZ and NS, have very little faith in organized opposition such as the Lawyers, and the student bodies. Zardari, when he bad mouths the Lawyers is actually digging his own grave.

B. Will the purist view of Civil Society supported by NS and AWK finally become a victim of the compromises by PPPP.

They don’t support the purest view or know they can’t get to it. The PPP has a situation in hand in Sindh and it is not the MQM. Read Zadari’s statement to BBC where he said that the PPP was told they would be confined to Sindh and they are. The PPP cares about Sindh because that is their base and to keep the power in Sindh, they will compromise with the devil itself. As long as the deal with the NS works, the PPP is with him. I think the forward Block in MLq minus Gujrati clown family offers an option to the PPP so watch NS destroy that with multiple means.

C. If the first two points are accepted, then we would soon see crisis within the ruling alliance. This alliance will be exploited by proliferators for destabilising. Niazi, Arbab, Multan, Karachi and now Jamrud incidents are perhaps linked to this destabilisation effort.

The army would do what it can to keep the alliance in a fragile state while they concede on CJ and next on Musharaf. It is a matter of who has the ability to press. NS wants to press now and AZ is too embroiled in keeping the power. He will go along when he sees a clear signal or is pressed enough.

The democracy requires lots of thinking and persuasions. Time is needed to learn these skills. The army makes it difficult and now everyone has to be on a fast track to learn these skills. So just watch the game!

Hp & Zeemax,
This is what I wrote on Beena's Essay.

"I would agree with your argument that the CJ Issue provided the Lawyers, Civil Society and Political Parties to coalesce. This is in fact the trigger and not the start point. Some of the developments we must lookout for are: -

A. Will BBs policy of Partial appeasement, partial defiance and partial compromise serve the cause of democracy in the long run, or will it provide a germination ground for the proliferators of democracy to become stronger? This view is in contrast to the Purist view of the intellectuals.

B. Will the purist view of Civil Society supported by NS and AWK finally become a victim of the compromises by PPPP.
?
C. If the first two points are accepted, then we would soon see crisis within the ruling alliance. This alliance will be exploited by proliferators for destabilising. Niazi, Arbab, Multan, Karachi and now Jamrud incidents are perhaps linked to this destabilisation effort.

The road is indeed difficult and the summit to democracy steep. In my view, PPPP has missed a chance for true democracy. They have returned from the brink of a revolution."

Re: # 500 zemax

THUS SPOKE ZORASTER.

#499 Posted by HP,

HP. Exactly. These are ISI people. I guess you didn't read through the posts. Do read them.

"Suddenly this Mangal Bagh's Lashkar-e-Islam has popped out of the blue which has a paid army of Rs. 5,000/month (instead of volunteers) and heavy arms."

Zee,
Any reason you are making heroes out of these bandits? They are set up to destroy any chance of reconciliation in the area. More ISI agents. Popped out of the blue...that is a tale tell sign of ISI.

Obviously, set up to get the Pak army or the US army in to the conflict. you really don't have much chance when the the army of your country is ready to make your country the battleground and invite outside forces in to the territory.

Shame on the Pak army for destroying the country that feeds them for monetary benefits.The army is doing this to make it difficult for the civilians but this too will blow up in the army's face.

... but I need to clarify again. That region is not Lawless. The only Law is an unwritten Pakhtunwali.

#492 Posted by dost_mittar,

Khasadars are such good soldiers. It's a great pity musharraf pitted them against their own and they got slaughtered as traitors and Kafirs.

Thanks for clarification, zee. What you say does make sense.

#490 Posted by tahmed32,

Let's just say musharraf could do little about Lal-Masjid because of Swat. And when he eventually did, you saw what happened.

... "I don't give a damn" was the redneck version ... not what the Southern landed gentry would say. But it was taken in the movie because I suppose rednecks watch movies more than they read books.

Just thought I should clarify a bit more.

#491 Posted by dost_mittar,

Ok Sir, so do take my word for it. What Margaret Mitchell wrote was "I don't care a damn".

Thank you.

tahmed32:

If you do not know about khasadars, this means that you haven't read even my Pakistan Dairies. I have a fond memory of the khasadar assigned to me for travel in the Khyber Agency who even let me fondle his gun.

BTW, these khasadars are a hangover from the British period; the poor chaps are not even given the status and privilege of state employees while working in a lawless region.

zeemax:

No, I have neither read the book nor seen the movie (except for some clippings); I have only heard and read that phrase ad nauseaum, though.

#489 if the only "explanation" you can provide to explain why musharraf permitted lal masjid to be turned into a mini-government until he was forced to act by the chinese is that "Allah works in mysterious ways", then let us let Allah also decide which one of us is being obstinate. :-)

#484 Posted by tahmed32,

in other words, you agree that there is no logical explanation for that other than the one I provided.

No. There are many explanations, but you're just too obstinate to use logical arguments with (sorry but true). So I sufficed with this till the next development.

and clever words are merely hollow talk if they are not based on any fact. soemthing you and musharraf and mqm have in common.

#486 those are clever words. i dont recall hearing any "logic" and "reason" from you.

if i am wrong, kindly cut and paste the last time you presented some "logic" or "reason" to me, and my reaction to that. or is it that you are mad at me for criticizing your musharraf and mqm scoundrels?

Tahmed I would consider voting for you in Chowk elections your stubborness in the face of logic and reason is kind of admirable even if it makes me call you mean names :)

Re: # 481 tahmed
Beauracracies in every society are averse to taking risks they let the things fester until every thing gets out of control.Besides musharaf was under the illusion that the leadership of tailban and thier supporters understands the geo-strategic and economic compulsions of pakistan and that they will be grateful to him for saving them from daisy cutters.Its just a thought no tangible proof for it.

#483 "Allah works in mysterious ways"

in other words, you agree that there is no logical explanation for that other than the one I provided.

#481/482 Posted by tahmed32,

The khasadars is the local term for Frontier Constabulary of the Pakistan Army. If you don't know that, you know very little indeed my friend.

Re the rest of your questions, Allah works in mysterious ways.

So we don't agree on that statement in #475, which means we can't go further in our discussion till another development takes place..

Sigh ...

zeemax #478 this is the same big talk that the lal masjid maulvis were doing before musharraf was forced by the chinese to put an end to their mischief.

no doubt local forces (the khasadars, who i never heard of before but assume are some kind of a paramilitary group run by the government and will be glad for any info on them) are on the run at this time - that means nothing in the bigger scheme of things: dreams of carving a ministate out of Pakistan will remain just that. No self-respecting government willingly gives up the writ of the state permanently, although it may permit short term suspensions during times of multiple crises, like nowadays for the democratic government.

#480 zeemax: The original crop was grown by our own people from soviet war days. And the original johnny appleseed was zia, as everyone knows now. Without military support, these groups would be nothing. Even the taliban would have been nowhere in their war against massoud's forces after the soviets left if they did not have the military propping them up as "pro-pakistan" elements.

And you have never explained how lal masjid was allowed to be converted from a madrassah into an arsenal and from there into a mini-government. If musharraf was serious about fighting terrorists, why did he allow all this to happen under his nose?

#479 Posted by tahmed32,

What you're missing is that they weren't allowed to grow by anyone. They just grew despite all efforts. Jamia Hafsa was the catalyst to bring the djinn out of the bottle, which still remains out of the bottle - and the bottle will not be capped unless their basic demands are met, which are being met e.g. in Swat where an Islamic Shariah administration has been agreed upon (wait for the news).

This is what you're missing.

Now, do we agree on the statement in #475?

#475 The "old" lashkars were musharraf's UNWITTING tools, in my view. That is - they may or may not have been aware that they were not the Great Muslim Warriors they imagined themselves to be, but merely being permitted to fester and grow by musharraf since they served his strategy of being seen both within Pakistan and outside Pakistan as being the only alternative to taliban-style rule in Pakistan.

Do you disagree? if so, what am I missing?

tahmed32, do read this. I spoke to a friend from that area and he says Mangal Bagh has agencies' support:

Closure of PA Bara headquarters demanded

Friday, April 18, 2008

BARA: After forcing his opponents to surrender in Jamrud area of the Khyber Agency, head of the militant organisation Lashkar-e-Islam turned his guns towards the political administration (PA) compelling it to close down its Bara headquarters. Announcing the development at his illegal FM radio station, the defiant LI head said he exercised maximum restraints in taking action against the political administration, which he claimed, tried to stop his drive against anti-social elements in the tribal agency. “But following Wednesday’s incident, when Khasadar force impeded our efforts to stop immoral, illegal and un-Islamic activities in Jamrud, the role of the authorities is no more acceptable to us,” he declared.

Mangal Bagh said he had ordered closure of the political administration headquarters forthwith which was later locked out. He announced, “I will no longer protect security forces from anti-social elements in the tribal territory which I have been doing since the launch of the Lashkar-e-Islam”.

The LI chief in his address warned personnel of Khasadar force of Bara tehsil against performance of their duties, failing which, their houses would be razed to the ground besides imposition of a fine of rupees one million.

The personnel of Khasadar Force immediately vacated the Bara tehsil headquarters. The khasadars from Bara serving in the Khyber House, Peshawar, also left their place of duty after the threat by Mangal Bagh. All the offices and checkpoints manned by the Khasadar Force in Khyber Agency were also abandoned. Eyewitnesses said Khasadar men were seen vacating the facility along with their personal belongings before the LI volunteers sealed the same.

Meanwhile, clashes in Jamrud halted after Zahir Shah’s family of the Kokikhel tribe, who were the main rivals in the current unrest in Jamrud, surrendered to the group and furnished guarantees to the LI for their ‘good conduct’ in future. However, the area remained tense amid heavy deployment of the FC personnel and families continued to flee the area throughout the day. Traffic on the Pak-Afghan Highway also remained suspended for the fifth consecutive day with security forces consolidating their position at Takhta Baig checkpoint at the entry to the tribal agency. It was also learnt that the overnight clashes between the groups claimed life of a LI volunteer identified as Akhtar Afridi while nine others were injured in the clashes.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=107445

#476 Posted by dost_mittar,

I'm afraid you've only seen the movie, in which the guy does indeed say "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn". But movie adaptations of great books are for dummies (sorry!).

In the book, he says "Frankly, my dear, I don't care a damn" which is the correct expression.

zeemax#468:

"I would just say the same as Margaret Mitchell had Mr. Butler to say "Frankly, I don't care a damn"."

I am disappointed in you. How could you commit such a mistake? It is "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".

[now, dont say you dont care either way :)]

#474 Posted by tahmed32,

Excellent. Now we can go further but first, just for clarity, we have to confirm our agreement on the following because it is critical for further discussion:

All the previous lashkars were not musharraf's tools but this new one (headed by a certain Mangal Bagh) is VERY likely to be musharraf's tool.

Do we agree on this?

zeemax: So, it is the drug mafia up in arms against the new government, not the boys of fata. I didnt realize that - so thanks for answering a question which I indeed should have asked.

To me this battle is a hopeful sign then - the new government means business when it says law and order is its first priority, and is not prepared to simply by off drug lords like musharraf's corrupt government.

Wrt FATA, I think it is too early to tell. I think the new government is trying a carrot and stick approach - willing to talk, but also preparing to use force if needed. Thus, US is already providing training (and materials?) to FF and there was also news about a joint US-Afghan-Pakistan monitoring operation set up.

So - it seems to me that rather than playing games with Americans as well as the Pakistani public (as musharraf was doing), all indications so far are that the new government is being more straight with both - taking ownership of terrorism as being a Pakistani problem, rather than simply pointing to the US and saying "they give me no choice" as musharraf was doing.

That is the best that I can think. :-) Let me know where you find flaws in logic above, or things I am ignorant of.

#454 Posted by tahmed32, re #451

... these lashkars etc., like jamia hafsa, were musharraf's unwitting tools. ... musharraf's game ... has been exposed ... they no longer have musharraf around ... the game seems to be up for them ...

tahmed32, if you had been an impassioned observer like Yours Truly (meaning me, not our esteemed Urstruly), you would arrive at the conclusion that in fact all the previous lashkars were not musharraf's tools at all - but this new one (headed by a certain Mangal Bagh) is VERY likely to be exactly that.

There was war all over FATA and Swat except Khyber Agency when musharraf was in power. Now when a democratic Government is in power, there is peace and negotiations all over FATA and Swat except Khyber Agency. Why?

Reason is, Khyber Agency is very different from the rest of FATA. It is the hub for smuggling (Bara markets) and narcotics. The tribal sardars are corrupt and criminals. Remember Ayub Afridi, a Senator, who was extradited to USA for heroine trafficking - who had a palace bigger than the white house near Landi Kotal with a helipad? In short, it can be bought. This is why it wasn't in the battle in support of Pak-Taliban Vs musharraf, but is now in battle with the elected Government when the Pak-Taliban are in negotations.

Suddenly this Mangal Bagh's Lashkar-e-Islam has popped out of the blue which has a paid army of Rs. 5,000/month (instead of volunteers) and heavy arms.

You should have asked "Who are these people?" But you didn't. You just repeat the same ole same ole.

Think, Sir!

further to #471: actually, his fascination with the gora color, any nationality. every time there is a news item of some gora converting to islam or something positive said about islam by some gora, this man would rush to post it. this betrays his own inferiority complex where he needs the "gora seal of approval" for islam, rather than discussing it on its own merits.

#469 zeemax: echoboom is a fake. ask him if he sang this song when humbly standing in line with his visa application for canada. and ask him on his fascination with gora arabs and persians, and his lack of interest in anything going on in pakistan.

che guevara: i think you are right. i hope i can count on your vote though when i run for elections on chowk though.

""AaO bhookoa,tumheiN dikhaa-eN jhaankni Hindostaan kee
McDonald aur Pizza Hut ney jis ko itnee shaan dee

I.T sey hUM kamaa kamaa kay khaatay huM sub burger haiN
Gora jub sey chala gaya hai,pait meiN upnay gurbur hain
English apni maa kee bhasha; aur Maata laitee ander haiN
Pim Pita hai, Chudtee maan hai..gahak goray bUnder haiN"

Echoboom, circa April 2008.

(http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/52039)

#465 Posted by ferozk,

However, I agree with you that Pakistan will not be better off or worse off because of this aid package.

Good. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Re any (mine?) sense of optimism about the aid, I would just say the same as Margaret Mitchell had Mr. Butler to say "Frankly, I don't care a damn".

I shall refrain from making blanket statements as you ask, but in return you should be a bit more careful about facts, before you make fictitious claims like Pakistan will be FX starved without any frigging US money - which the ignorant hamidm2s are more wont to make.

Re: # 418
I might want to do an article in this 'ZABAAN' thing to add to your funniness!

A timely reminder Feroz.
This carrot and sticks game will continue and gloating over some expected aid or loan from the US is really not adult behavior.

The crisis in Pakistan is much deeper and the establishment might strike earlier than expected. Sardar Ataullah Mengal correctly pointed out that Agencies brought them in power and they can't really go against them.

The issue is bigger than just the CJ or Musharaf. They can come and go but the power sharing structure has lots of hurdles to overcome. I think the ruling alliance needs breathing room to workout a deal with the establishment.

There are two ways to get this breathing room. One is to get the lawyers off the govt's back by bringing the CJ back. The second is to leave the CJ issue and apprise the lawyers of the real situation and get their help in putting pressure on the establishment.The Lawyers leadership and NS both know what the problems are but they are going for an easy victory...which would not be easy in the end.

Let us just hope people have patience to help the leaders get through this critical phase.

re: zeemax # 464

I can understand your sense of optimism about the aid. Zeemaz, a major policy shift like this one will not happen over night. Zeemax, please keep in mind that once Congress starts to debate this policy change, it might not be "free aid" as a lot people in Pakistan think. There will be aditional provisos added to it and we need to wait see what the final package will look like.

However, I agree with you that Pakistan will not be better off or worse of because of this aid package. If on the other hand, the money reaches the people where it is needed the most, then I hope things improve.

Please do not make blanket judgemental statements about people and their views, when their views disgree with your views. :)

Ciao

#463 Posted by ferozk,

I heard the first token tranche of $ 200 million has been deposited yesterday. Is it true?

Re taking years, it will be presented to the congress within a couple of months. In the meantime a ceasefire on both sides continues.

Re Aid, I have written many times before, now established as a fact after change of Government, that US never gave Pakistan a penny for economic aid during musharraf rule - it was given to the Pakistan Army as military aid against Taliban which was used for import of hardware. All foreign exchange requirements of Pakistan economy on the other hand were met through Workers Remittances, FDI from GCC countries, GDRs and Bond issues plus privatizations.

Nothing has changed now and if the new package doesn't materialize, Pakistan will be no better or no worse than before.

Your views are at best quite uninformed, and at worst typical of the Daily Times reading clueless elite.

Prove it if you think otherwise with balance of payments figures since 2002, i.e from where the FX inflows actually arrived in the Ministry of Finance books and where these were spent.

Ciao

Please note the US "offer" of 7 billion dollar non-military aid to Pakistan is an idea. It has, yet, to be formalized into a policy, which means that it must go through the process of committee hearings and then a full debate on the floor of the House of Representatives. Also note, that before it comes to a final vote, it may have "riders" attached to it; strings, which will/may alter the nature of the offer itself significantly. Given the nature of the American legislative system, compromises will have to be made to seek a possible ratification of this bill and hence, this bill might/will change radically from its utopian intentions, as said by Senator Joe Biden - its sponser.

"Offers" like these take years to materialize before the first dollar is deposited into a bank account. Remember the old saying; he who has the gold makes the rules. US will gain more political coverage and leverage over Pakistan this way than it presently has and as said before, given Pakistan's financial problems, Pakistan will need a constant injection of foreign aid to keep its economy aloft and therefore, might not be in a position to reject the final shape of the bill even it turns out against Pakistan's strategic interests.

Therefore, while the nation might be rejoicing on the democratic dividend, it should take into the account the "investment" and the long-term price it will have to pay for this American investment in Pakistan.

Ciao

So Tahmed continues to make an ass out of himself, and Zeemax keeps line in with his usual delusional chootishness. *Yawns*

treetop,

Be a sport. I am only rattling tahmed’s cage a bit; it’s a lot of fun, you know ...

I know we desi’s have our problems … but beautiful, 20 year olds can be had without necessarily going to an escort agency. Although not having to cuddle afterwards is always a plus.

+++

tahmed Sahib, no hard feelings, I hope. Like I said … I am only rattling your cage a bit. Have a quiet, peaceful evening with latest edition of Washington Post :-)

ANGRY over fifty commrades,
once or twice a month get a 20 year old beautiful white chick( escort services),take viagra if neccesary and bang her (no love-making) for couple of hours that shall take your anger and frustrations away.

tahmed,

"Gibberish" is your opinion, which is alright by me.

But fact remains that you got conned into starting a brutal, pointless war. And no smart comment can now make up for it. Re-read #457 and think ...

#457 now you are reduced to talking gibberish...re-read #456, then lets see you come back with more gibberish..

tahmed,

Your silence is a perfectly valid response; no need to try to justify it.

Fools like you got conned into supporting a useless war. This is a crying shame for the society at large. Sorry, but your smart comments are not helpful here ...

There's no need for you to try to prove your lack of interest; it is largely irrelevent. Your posts and mine are for others to see and to think over ... and that ought to be good enough for you.

#455 the truth is that you have dying to exchange posts with me, refusing to take a polite "thanks but no thanks" for an answer. and i have been telling to to buzz off. and now you are trying to save face.. :-)

tahmed,

Your interest is irrelevent; other chowkies may ponder over the point I have made here.

Botton line is this: As you extol virtues of media and information, you forget that, like a blithering fool, you yourself got conned into supporting a brutal war. This is the power of propaganda that war-mongering idiots like you fail to see.

... and this is the simple point I have made here at your expense - that's all ...

#451 zeemax: these lashkars etc., like jamia hafsa, were musharraf's unwitting tools. now of course musharraf's game - i.e. that if goes the terrorists will replace him - has been exposed and the world understands that it was not mush vs terrorists but mush vs pakistani mainstream politicians and civil society all along. So, now they are no ue to him.

Which then leads to the following question: What is the future of the taliban, lashkars etc? Now that they no longer have musharraf around to provide them refuge, and given their poor military and political situation (as per the questions i had in #430), the game seems to be up for them as far as i can tell.

#452 "in all seriousness" i have no interest in your views concerning my views.

tahmed,

Calm down! You admitted to being a fool and I agreed :-) Now what?

In all seroiusness, I only pointed out flaws in your views, and you can't stomach it. You are being too touchy and making a fuss over nothing.

You need to go back to Prozac, you know (that's only a joke, you fool, no need to get worked up!)

#449/450 Posted by tahmed32,

Sure. I'll think about what you wrote. But if you consider Jamia Hafsa a tool of Musharraf, then you also have to consider Waziristan, Swat and now the Lashkar-e-Islam too.

I know you did actually consider Waziristan and Swat as tools of musharraf after Jamia Hafsa, so now you consider Lashkar-e-Islam the same as well.

Hmmm ... have a good break ... till there's another one.

zeemax: have to go. will check back later - but hopefully you will think about some of what i wrote.

#448 zeemax: first, musharraf did not have the people's mandate. his madate came from abuse of his military position.

second, musharraf was replaced because of the courageous struggle of thousands of pakistanis - lawyers, journalists, and later political parties. jamia hafsa were merely tools of musharraf to put this movement offbalance - and he moved against them only when the jamia hafsa went beyond their limits and attached chinese women - which brought the chinese down to pull musharraf's ears. (we have been thru this before, so you are free to disagree if you wish).

#443 Posted by tahmed32,

taking up arms to take attention away from the people's mandate.

If the Jamia Hafsa girls had not taken up dandas against musharraf, there would never have been a public mandate on 18 Feb 2008 in the first place.

But you'll need to think about that for a while.

#444 i could abuse you too the way you have been doing past few posts. but that would reduce me to your level, you pathetic man. so i'll simply say again: have a nice day. i have no interest in wasting time with you.

i am on chowk because I am chatting with zeemax. so kindly quit trying to start a "discussion" with me. i know you too well to waste time with you discussing anything.

{"Let me narrate a very personal story when I was 24. At the Pizza Hut Gulshan, Karachi. I organized a birthday brunch for friends – for about good 40 folks I spend about Rs. 10000 on pizzas and whatnot – when we all finished and I went out; I saw a baby girl dying from hunger. That day my life changed. I made a pledge to lead a very ‘ordinary life’ and Alhumdullah I am leading one – with skeletons attached."}

IB Sahib,
I have no idea about the nature of the debate or the points involved. I noticed this post of yours and I just had to compliment you on your truly Islamic outlook and your generosity in sharing this personal anecdote with us. I salute you and just want you to know how much I respect you for your recognition and compassion for our fellow humans' needs. Thank you.

{"Let me narrate a very personal story when I was 24. At the Pizza Hut Gulshan, Karachi. I organized a birthday brunch for friends – for about good 40 folks I spend about Rs. 10000 on pizzas and whatnot – when we all finished and I went out; I saw a baby girl dying from hunger. That day my life changed. I made a pledge to lead a very ‘ordinary life’ and Alhumdullah I am leading one – with skeletons attached."}

IB Sahib,
I have no idea about the nature of the debate or the points involved. I noticed this post of yours and I just had to compliment you on your truly Islamic outlook and your generosity in sharing this personal anecdote with us. I salute you and just want to know how much I respect you for your recognition and compassion for our fellow humans' needs. Thank you.

I agree you are a fool, but for a different reason. Don't be too upset; eventually it will all make sense!

#442 zeemax:

the electoral process is the process to participate in the formulating a people's mandate.

taking up arms against a democratic government is a process to take attention away from the people's mandate. and those doing it are mere criminals.

#440 Posted by tahmed32,

to put their issues on the agenda, rather than focus on the people's mandate?

err ... you always forget tamed32 that they're people too and they have a share in the popular mandate.

#439 re-read #430.

#438 put pressure for what? for the democratically elected government to put their issues on the agenda, rather than focus on the people's mandate?

tahmed,

I agree you are a fool indeed, but cited an entirely different reason to arrive at this conclusion.

Come back when you have pondered over getting conned into a useless war. Such reflection may help you see straight. And while at it, avoid "worrying about the future of mankind" ;-)

#437 Posted by tahmed32,

They don't want to hold ground. They just want to make a point and put great pressure, just like Lal-Masjid, Waziristan, Swat ... the bombs in Urban centers - etc.

#433 kindly re-read #430 and then tell me what part you have difficulty understanding.

zeemax: Fine. But, in light of the questions I had for you below, do you think they can hold the ground?

... no doubt they also have the Pakistan Ambassador to Afghanistan, who was abducted in Khyber Agency a month ago.

tahmed32,

Okay, more details now re this Lashkar-e-Islam. It is a Lal-Masjid style vigilante group numbering some 10,000 which has captured the Afghanistan-Pakistan highway and closed it since 5 days, and fighting with the Shinwaris and the Kukikhels for closure of the narcotics trade in Khyber Agency on the edge of Peshawar near Bara markets. They already have control of Landi Kotal and Jamrud.

To even think some people were contemptuous of a bunch of teenage girls in Burqas ...

tahmed,

You buckle too quickly when taken to the task. This makes you a fool indeed, but for an entirely different reason than the one you cited :-)

If nothing else, ponder over how you yourself were conned into supporting a brutal, sorry war ... all through manipulated information. Till you do that, please, no more lecutres on marvels of the information age ...

#427 GT

[Thus, today, competition for political space has lead to "Kashmiri Nationalism" being defined solely on the basis of Islam across the entire political spectrum.]

Um, professor, WHEN did "Kashmiri Nationalism" have Hindus as active participants?

Eh?

[And it is precisely because of this that a basis for "negotiation" has eluded the "problem".]

I think you Muslims should stop dreaming and get this - THERE WILL BE NO NEGOTIATIONS. Not now, not ever. Read up on the history of Kashmir. You cheap arab-wannabees are not getting it. The only leverage you guys had was uncle Sam when he needed you. Those days are gone. In fact, we Indians should get back what is rightly ours - POK. And if the BJP comes to power and stays in power long enough, hopefully some politician will make this his "issue". It will be a VERY popular issue with the Indian public.

The Nilamata Purana describes the Valley's origin from the waters, Ka means "water" and Shimir means "to desiccate". Hence, Kashmir stands for "a land desiccated from water". There is also a theory which takes Kashmir to be a contraction of Kashyap-mira or Kashyapmir or Kashyapmeru, the "sea or mountain of Kashyapa", the sage who is credited with having drained the waters of the primordial lake Satisar, that Kashmir was before it was reclaimed. The Nilamata Purana gives the name Kashmira to the Valley considering it to be an embodiment of Uma and it is the Kashmir that the world knows today. The Kashmiris, however, call it Kashir, which has been derived phonetically from Kashmir, as pointed out by Aurel Stein in his introduction to the Rajatarangini.

In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the 12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. This was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura name which has been plausibly identified with the Kao-1r6.nupos of Hecataeus (apud Stephen of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44). Kashmir is the country meant also by Ptolemy's Kao-ir,~pta.

Kashmir was one of the major centre of Sanskrit scholars. According to Mahabharata evidence,[3] the Kambojas had ruled over Kashmir during epic times and that it was a Republican system of government under the Kamboj.[4] The capital city of Kashmir (Kamboj) during epic times was Rajapura e.g. Karna-Rajapuram-gatva-Kambojah-nirjitastava.[5][6] Epic Rajapura has been identified with modern Rajauri.[7] Later, the Panchalas are stated to have established their sway. The name Peer Panjal, which is a part of modern Kashmir, is a witness to this fact. Panjal is simply a distorted form of the Sanskritic tribal term Panchala. The Muslims had prefixed the word " peer " to it in memory of one Siddha Faqir and the name thence-after is said to have changed into Peer Panjal.

The Mauryan emperor Ashoka is often credited with having founded the city of Srinagar. Kashmir was once a Buddhist seat of learning, perhaps with the Sarvāstivādan school dominating. East and Central Asian Buddhist monks are recorded as having visited the kingdom. In the late 4th century AD, the famous Kuchanese monk Kumārajīva, born to an Indian noble family, studied Dīrghāgama and Madhyāgama in Kashmir under Bandhudatta. He later becoming a prolific translator who helped take Buddhism to China. His mother Jīva is thought to have retired to Kashmir. Vimalākṣa, a Sarvāstivādan Buddhist monk, travelled from Kashmir to Kucha and there instructed Kumārajīva in the Vinayapiṭaka.



[India - Pakistan relations are actually a second order problem. And a "nation" like India is not ready for multiple "constitutions", at least not for the next 10 years.]

Um, professor, so AFTER the next 10 years, India might be "ready for multiple constitutions"?

[If the BJP comes to power, it will show (false) sympathy by acting as if it is in favor of a referendum. With the added clause that all Indian Muslims, and only Indian Muslims vote.]

This "referendum" thing is only a Muslim wet dream. As an Indian I can tell you, ANY party that does this, will NEVER come to power again. I think instead of having all these wet dreams, Muslims should migrate to some place they feel they can identify with. Move to Kazaksthan, for example. WE DON"T WANT YOU. LEAVE. WE ARE TIRED OF THE CONSTANT MOANING AND GROANING AND COMPLAINING. JUST GO. IF YOU ARE DESCENDED FROM FOREIGN BARBARIANS ANYWAY, ALL THE MORE REASON TO LEAVE. JUST LEAVE. YOU GUYS ARE LIKE PARASITES IN ANY DAMN COUNTRY. SUCKING THE COUNTRY HOLLOW FROM INSIDE WITH THE CONSTANT NON-STOP VIOLENCE AND DISSATISFACTION AND
DIVISIVE ACTIVITIES. IN EVERY COUNTRY. PEOPLE OF NO OTHER RELIGION ARE LIKE YOU GUYS. NO ONE. I HAVE HAD PARSEE FRIENDS, CHRISTIAN FRIENDS - NOBODY IS LIKE YOU GUYS. YOU GUYS ARE LIKE MINDLESS INDOCTRINATED ZOMBIES PROGRAMMED TO SPREAD MISERY AND UNHAPPINESS. WON'T LET ANYONE BE HAPPY.

WHAT A DAMN CURSE!

zeemax #425 (shaking my head from side to side) Why do you persist in believing that the Taliban are any match for Pakistani forces?

Is there a Taliban Air Force?
Is there a Taliban Tank Division (or even a single, moth-eaten Taliban Tank?
Is there any popular support for the Taliban?
Is there any international support for the Taliban?
Is there a moral cause that the Taliban are fighting for that any sane individual could relate to?

Reflect on these please.

sattar2 429: if it is foolish to not get into a "discussion" with you, then i am indeed a fool. Have nice day. :-)

tahmed (#403),

Don’t blame me, you fool; your own posts underscore your credibility gap. And you still seem hung up on Islamic issues after all this time …

Your reasoning that … ”since Chowk is a part of media, and Chowk is not controlled by anyone, this proves that media has no outside influence” … says it all. Are you for real?

Information you were fed was manipulated at the highest levels … and you got conned into supporting a brutal, useless war. It is now pointless for you to discuss virtues of media coverage and free speech. Reflect on this, you idiot …

You see the tree but not the forest. And that’s the travesty of (drum roll) … worrying too much about the future of mankind :-) May I suggest some Prozac instead?

treetop #404

["Its not the lack of arguments its the fear that you will dig out some lenthy article from some where or write a monologue of twisted logic that iwill have to read unwillingly"]

Yeah. It's either that, or you don't have an argument left.

Lying/deception and Islam are synonymous.

#424 Posted by ferozk:

"The Kashmir issue will settled not because the people wish it, but because it has ceased to be important in their lives."

The above statement is based on two assumptions: (a) The Kashmir issue CAN be settled; (b) It CAN cease to be important in people's lives.

Both assumptions are perhaps valid in the long run, something that we do not care about. The pertinent question, therefore is, whether these assumptions are valid in the short run, say in the next 10 years or so. The answer is NO.

1. The unwashed Kashmiri individual does not give a fig as to whether Kashmir belongs to India or Pakistan. This is as long as her day to day life is undisturbed. An important part of this day to day life her religion. It defines her social network (I usually call networks "tribes") and provides hope for the future. Hope is what allows her to live a dignified life and we know that dignity is something that one does not part with readily. A perceived threat, i.e. the threat need not necessarily be real, to her religion is therefore a threat to her socio-economic network and dignity.

2. It is a common ploy of opposition parties/politicians, in most democracies, to try to come to power by differentiating themselves from those who presently wield power. For example Obama and Hillary may not have many political differences to talk about. But by drawing on the fact that one's opponent is a Washington insider, one tries to impress on the fact that he/she (given a chance) can achieve something "better" than what one has at present. This need not be true only in democracies, but let us stick to it since this is the most optimistic scenario. In India it is no different. Except for the fact that like the Kashmiris, mentioned in 1., almost all Indians care for their socio-economic networks which are often based on caste/religion/language platforms. Of late, regional parties have come to power in different parts of India on platforms based on caste and language. The differences between the center and periphery in India, a multi caste/religion country, is thus more real than in the US. Moreover, the regional parties have persisted. This implies that they have provided sustenance to the networks in their states. Otherwise, they would have died a democratic death. I do not see them vanishing in the next 10 years or so. These parties will struggle for their existence. In particular, they will make sure that local networks do not get swallowed up by broader "markets". They won't succeed in the long run, but they are here to stay for the next 10 years or so.

3. Kashmir is similar to the rest of India in the sense of 2. They were perhaps the first to differentiate themselves from the "center" on the basis of "Kashmiri Nationalism" or language. But Kashmiris can also differentiate themselves from the center on the basis of religion, another factor that sustains local networks. Coupled is the fact that a certain brand of political ideology is strongly woven into (or is being woven into) what stands for Islam today. Thus, today, competition for political space has lead to "Kashmiri Nationalism" being defined solely on the basis of Islam across the entire political spectrum. Not only in Kashmir, but all over India. This is going to stay in the short run, just like regional politics is going to stay in India.

4. But where is the problem? After all a regional party called, say, the Islamic Party of Kashmir can be formed and it can function like the DMK functions in Tamil Nadu and there would be no Kashmir "problem". The issue is that today's brand of Islam will ask for a "constitution" of their own. And it is precisely because of this that a basis for "negotiation" has eluded the "problem". India - Pakistan relations are actually a second order problem. And a "nation" like India is not ready for multiple "constitutions", at least not for the next 10 years.

5. Above, I have given you the theory. Based on it let me make a prediction. The usual law and order problems, Pakistan's interference, Urstruly's rants etc. are 10 year predictions that even arjun can make. Here is my prediction: If the BJP comes to power, it will show (false) sympathy by acting as if it is in favor of a referendum. With the added clause that all Indian Muslims, and only Indian Muslims vote.

Re: # 413 zee

Well - it says, the hellfires will be "curbed"... does not say it will be stopped... and you know yankees, they lie and deceive all the time... so don't get your hopes up...

But you may get the $7 bn... that's the blood money...

tahmed32,

But in any case, I think it may be too late. There's a new group named Lashkar-e-Islam which appears to have split from Pakistani Taliban, taken over Khyber Agency, and there's now fighting around Hyatabad, Peshawar. Residents have vacated Hyatabad (If you know Peshawar, you will know Hyatabad is in Peshawar).

Or maybe it's a tactic by Taliban to encircle Peshawar from both the Kohat end as well as the Khyber pass end. This is as of last night. Not many details yet.

re: Dost_Mittar

The Kashmir issue will settled not because the people wish it, but because it has ceased to be important in their lives. I have no doubt that it will solved, but it might be a big surprise to the patriots on both sides that they will not get all they had hoped for in the matter. The most logical outcome will be to formalize the present status quo - the Line of Control - into an international border and end the issue for once and for all.

As to my old hometown, isn't the snow a bit late? Then again, I remember the snow in late May also...

BTW; I was there when Trudeau (sp?)and Levasque (sp?) were battling it out and was south of the border, when the second plebiscite was held and thank God, the rest of the nation did not buy into a federal version of Bill 101.

Ciao

#421 Posted by tahmed32,

Really? I thought he was a great proponent of daisy cutters. Or maybe by that he meant the gardner's tool for pruning the daisies in his front patch.

re: HP

I owe you a reply and I will post as soon as I can figure out the new loadshedding schedule and have some time to frame a proper reply to your generous explanation.

The problem is that when you try to squeeze in words between power outages, the intent is often garbled. :)

Ciao

#419 zeemax: Those phrases you used (hellfire missiles etc.) were the one arjun uses to live out his pandit-insane fantasies, not hamidm. I dont think hamidm, despite his regrettable lota-tendencies, ever called for the killing of innocent people.

#417 dm: Sir jee depends who this "one" is that you are talking about. If you mean the conventional wisdom desi babus - they are always 30 years behind times anyway (that is why we still have people arguing about 1947 issues on chowk), so it is no surprise that they are thinking of conventional mass media.

But I think I did the right thing in taking a broader view of the media consistent with today's realities by bringing in the internet. Only by seeing things from this broader perspective will you understand why in fact the US is the world leader in freedom and human liberty. Despite anti-US propaganda from the same people who then rush to put their investments in US control and (as per the example of ICANN) trust the US to manage the internet rather than one another.