The Psychology of Mothering

Owning up to transgression never amounts to hypocrisy, transgressing while claiming otherwise does. I am the furthest from hypocrisy a person can get, even when avoiding it involves exposing myself to ridicule and reveals lack of piety...

In #285 read "If I were to say I do such and so because my religion says so I would be a hypocrite" as

If I were to say I do such and so because my religion says so I would be a liar

Charlie writes "Now tell me who is hypocrite? :) "

It is good to note that you have learned how to read a dictionary dimwit, that is a major achievement for you. Only a "hypocrite" would proclaim that what he or she does is in perfect accord with the "ideal type" presented in his or her religion or culture. People strive towards yet never attain the ideal type. If I were to say I do such and so because my religion says so I would be a hypocrite. Transgressions and variations where one professes them (and does not profess having them when he does not) is no hypocrisy, it is sincerity....and while you're at it learn the english language and its usage as well....fool

Re: # 283 I do what I do, sometimes it goes against my relgion and my culture fool..............

Masadi! Here is the definition of Hypocrisy: "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess."


Now tell me who is hypocrite? :)

Charlie writes " hope your religion and culture teaches its follwers the importance of manners and the guidelines to interact with other people..."

It teaches me first and foremost that hypocrisy is worse than apostasy, and the kind of hypocrisy that Sohail and his masters, the US decision makers practice, stabbing you in the back while smiling at your face, is the kind of hypocrisy tolerating which with good manners, would be hypocrisy itself. Interacting with people that deride their own heritage and people in a most hypocritical way while promoting the bs propaganda of the white man, as if its some kind of evolution to a higher plane is something I can never be polite towards. And you apparently lack the b@lls to directly confront me so you see avenues of trying to deride my "religion and culture". I do what I do, sometimes it goes against my relgion and my culture fool..............

Dear Masadi,

I hope your religion and culture teaches its follwers the importance of manners and the guidelines to interact with other people.

Best Regards,
Charlie

and he thought he would discredit me in front of the people by his plastic politeness............wrong!.........

Sohail I cannot respect someone who disrespects his entire heritage and sells his soul for a few $$ to the white man, overlooking his evil that is a billion times greater than the things he criticizes about back home. Respect yourself and your people first before you ask me to respect you...and give up this plastic hypocrisy........

dear massadi...you are an intelligent and a well read man. you are very insightful about many aspects of life. i respect you and have never written anything negative about you. i think many people will learn a lot more from you if we manintained a mutually respectful attitude in our dialogues. if you are ever in toronto you are more than welcome for a cup of tea...all the best....sincerely sohail

Re: # 276
dear nature lover.... i have not been to pakistan after 2000. i grew up in kohat and peshawar but my sister lives in lahore now. if i ever go to pakistan i would love to meet you. tell me more about yourself...sohail

Remove this bs article and the dog ugly mugshot of this shrink from the front page, it is being kept there for longer than usual and makes me sick everytime my gaze goes towards it.....

Dear Dr Sohail,

I am glad that your meeting with Charlie was useful.

I would like to invite you to Pakistan in near future, and we may refresh our memories of Kohat , Peshawar etc..

Will that be OK for you..??

Regards,

Re: # 274

Peaceful for Dr Sohail and full of novel ideas for me. :)

Re: # 265
dear nature lover. just to reassure you that i had a wonderful meeting with charlie. it was quite peaceful.
sincerely sohail

Masadi,

due to your constant whining, we have decided to support your application for an American visa.

We promise to facilitate your rehabilitation and subsequent release back into the wild.

Take care and don't bite anyone as it may be contagious.

The US Elite

Re: # 256

sattar2

You are great. Thank you for the elaborative response. I wonder why even the Mullah are becoming feminists in the pakiland and insisting on equality and empoverment of the female gender.

Re: # 270

mr boob boon boom saab

are you saying musalmans are snakes saab

i am a kalma go musalman saab and very offended saab

http://www.chowk.com/viewg/2433

A friendly advice
To the Murtid Mice

Thank you Izza

A friendly advice
To the Murtid Mice

echo mian, your concern for this shrink is very moving and your politeness even more so. He should spend the rest of his life thanking you for the time you took to wake his miserable a$$ up but he wont the ingrate that he is. Therefore I have lost patience with these people and make comments that show them the ugliness of what their souls have become, I know that decent people are offended by my comments but they are meant only for these morons, so don't take offense.

Now, please tap into the hologram and pull for us the last diary entries of tahmed and hamid, HumpedDumped2 and his Chiuhuaha R2D(t)32.

Nature-Lover

Your "Honey, I have shrunk the shrink" is superbly hilarious.

Here is the self-analysis of the Shrrivelled shrink...the last entry into his diary.
........................................................
Last Entry:
In the diary of the Psycho from chukk:420, mauza Harrapa
===========================================================
My own private Fridaho

epilogue


.....and now I can sense that they are mumbling & whispering about removing the life-support system from me. It is not that I am in coma all the time, it is just that they cannot tell that, and I do not tell them. I observe, I listen, but I cannot respond...but only for sporadic minutes when no one is around. The prescriptions & proscriptions of the west & east did me in!

It`ll be anyday, anytime,

sooner than later.

.........ahh!and memories! , in a rewind loop, now in focus, now in a blurr & blob from the deep deep recesses of my mind, never ever abandon me, never let go. It sure helps to be a shrink to interpret and bring into focus these repressed memories....

...the joyful days and nights when I was called Fridaho by everyone. Snot, rat-tail-like, peeking in and out of my dust laden & dirt ridden nostrils and occasionally wiped-ff by my left sleeve while looking askance at every passing elder who would shove-kick-slap-hit me--just for the heck of it . At least they recognised me that I existed. I belonged! Here in US nobody gives a damn no matter how hard you try to prove that now you are one of them.So Frida-ho it was, sometimes Freeda-ho, sometimes Freeday-ho but none seemed different. The landowners around Harrapa were too preoccupied & disinterested to worry about my heritage or what I truly aspired to be. I was simply a body, a serf, a kummee`s son, destined to be a kummee himself when old enough to plow their fields.

But I had ambitions. Secret designs of my own. Intrepid & Intrigue was important to overcome the caste, and the color barrier. I wanted to be like the Jat jagirdars son.., with the plastic clip-on tie & back-pack,..whose forefathers helped the british to rule over us. ``Salvation is in slavery``! this became my banner & beacon....to enable me to cross over to the other side & someday have my own private slaves.

`` I must redesign my heritage`` I heard myself say to myself aloud oneday. It must be sculpted by me to suit the occasion or event. I decided to interrupt others and correcte them that my name was Fareed. Everyone should take notice, I told them. I am Fareed--not Freeda-ho. They all did, and shoved-kicked-slapped and ran me out of the chukk # 440 near to the mound-ruins where heritage is preserved. Preserved so well that it generates ample reveues for its progeny even after laying dormant for about 5000 years. The goraas discovered the mounds of the dead and educated the slaves; drilled into them how civilised they once were and how the slaves were once 5000-year civilised & now in the darkages due to their stupid reli.. (well-never mind)

...good that they hounded me out of the Chukk 420 near mauza Harrapa. In the city I became the real me, Fareed! and now diligently pursued the practised the Jaw-resetting language to such perfection that that I was soon inducted into that inner-sanctum of those who prided themselves to announce themselves as The-Tongued-Ones: (ahle-zubaan)

Years passed and then I discovered that even this heritage is now under suspicion and is no longer respectable. The-Tongued-ones are being harrassed by those who are now refusing the get their jaws reset. So I decided to look for opportunities to create another new heritage for my nation`s posterior and my own posterity

I decided to emigrate to the fantasy-land of sex,drugs & faith-freedom
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and opportunity!

Here I learned that my name a big problem for me & the way I pronounce it is even a bigger problem for the immigration folk. They re-named me Freud, ( apt! I chucked then) entered that in the register, and officially I became Archie Freud . Archie is for Arshad , a name I had always liked and was given that as my `christain` name when the immigration guy, fat beet-red face one, insisted that Arshad was too foreign & a jawlocker for him.

Sixty long years seem now like the blink of an eye! Such a Psychiatric I was that, in serving science & humanism, I became a psycho myself and was committed to the proper places many a times during my shining career & gloomy disposition. Some alluded this to the genius in me and such a price is small for those like me to pay to serve humanity and reassert my Insaanyat in ways other than the mundane kind. I sometimes feel that it is my obssessive cynicism to keep a score on my insaanyat index that blew my brainfuse.

Despite all the laurels and dollars , I was still uneasy with this post-modernistic, humanistic heritage of mine. Hell, the kids, no longer kids by the way, were determined to manufacture their own heritage, as muslim, and were going out of the way to refuse to inherit anything at all from the mounds of Moenjo Dero or the hollows of Harrapaa . This really did me in. I mean with all the heritage that I accumulated and now here my own flesh and blood wanted to disinherit all that!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------


...So When I returned to the area I had left as Chukk 420 I tried to prove & convince the people running the heritage industry, primarily the Jaw-lockers--the Tongued-ones (ahli-Zubaan), but no one was interested anymore.They ahd outslaved me by a single U-turn. They were all trying to become a mirror image of the people from the land of bilk & money.

I learnt that behind my back they sneered at my attempt to speak in the Jawlock-way or the neo-Tongue-Ones way.

They were calling me Dr. Fraud.

Re: # 265
dear nature lover...can we talk more outside the chowk forum as i am interested in your description of 'risky behaviour in life'?
sincerely
sohail

Re:# 264

Dear Dr Sohail,

My analysis is based on the information,which I got from the books you wrote or translated, your articles and your interacts.

You may not be even aware of your own risky behaviour in life.

Regards,

Re: # 263
dear nature lover...i thoroughly enjoyed your free analysis.
you have a creative mind.
i am curious what inspired you to do that...
...smiles..sohail

Brief psycho analysis of author , which we will call "patient" in the following analysis .

Patient was born in a traditional family based Muslim society and due to some tragedies and untreated mental illnesses in his family he suffered from traumas and abuse.

His parent society and his family fed him well , and as he had good memory and rote skills hence he became a medical doctor, which was a highly respected position in that society.

Patient had hidden grudges against that society , and he could not cope with those repressed thoughts of revenge, at his own.

Some how patient came to Canada, and again, due to his memorizing skills and rote abilities he became a psychiatrist.

He started his practice in a small lonely town , near Toronto.

In the beginning he kept his faith in God and did some good jobs for humanity by translating some important stuff of psychology and psychiatry in his native language Urdu.

In the mean time when he saw doolars , alcohol,drugs and other related indulgences, then he got tempted, and decided to go for them.

He also needed escape mechanisms to cope with the harsh and alien realities of the weather and culture of his adopted society.

The only hurdle in his way was his belief in God, hence as a defence mechanism, and to supress his guilt, he denounced his faith publicly.

Due to his delusional disorder, he thought in this way he might become famous and immortal in this world.

Due to brain damage and the bad company he was keeping, he started showing signs of untreated psychosis and he started considering himself as a prophet of the new age.

He grew long hair, and felt grand and declared himself as a great brain of 20th century who was going to finish his parent society through his write ups and dialouges etc..

In the mean time his life and his immediate surroundings showed signs of change, decay and confusion , and as he couldn't face that loss, hence as a second defence mechanism he came up with these generalized statements that the realms of religion, family values and nationalism were decaying.

If patient keep his present habits and his present company then chances of his recovery are minimum.

If patient repents, and forgives his parent society and reconnects to his roots then there are chances of his survival and peace of mind.

Patient can serve his parent society better by continuing translating pure science and psychology subjects, without making futile attempts of destroying the very fabric of faith and family values etc..

Read "My the eyeballs of the peons of the West " as

May the eyeballs of the peons of the West

Further to #260 the word "outgrowing" used by this shrink implies an evolution to a higher plane- let me remind you that abandoning your wives and leaving them as single moms, not paying child support, worshipping at the altars of material goods and their symbols and starting wars garbed in master symbols in a most hypocritical manner does not involve evolution it involves degeneration back to a selfish id ridden existence where selfish interest maximization at the expense of all and sundry involves the human brute and not civilization. This "outgrowing" this shrink is talking about is actually degenration where "freedom" is equated with "just do it" regardless of the consequences for the earth or the fellow. My the eyeballs of the peons of the West like this shrink ROT in their sockets, and may the maggots feast on their dirty flesh while they are living just as in their death."...and that is all I have to say....sobs the whole goddamned lot of them

The shrink writes "i think humanity is outgrowing them "

What humanity is outgrowing is enslavement to the white man and you are the dirty remnant of the type they reject. Religion is very much alive and kicking, and where it is not, nationalism and its symbols have replaced it as the new civil religion. The symbols of the market itself with its sacred and profane have become akin to religion, a more destructive religion whose priests are ready to destroy the world for their greed. Marriage has been devalued for the same reason due to economic forces where alternatives have warped from it they have harmed women moreso than men following in the broad structure of the capitalist society that liberates women by raping and killing and impoverishing them, segments societies based on race and gender and reward based on gradations of those that best fit withing the elite's worldview and objective appearance...now take your shrinkery and shove it...

Re: # 258

" i think modern life is forcing us to review three traditions...
religion
nationalism
marriage"

Agree with you 100% there.

Feminism is a scourge of this century that needs to be studied too.

Re: # 257
dear sattar2...i think modern life is forcing us to review three traditions...
religion
nationalism
marriage
i think humanity is outgrowing them but since we do not have better alternatives yet so we are going through a transition...having a breakdown before we have the breakthrough where we can
cherish spirituality and secular humanism rather than religion
have global village rather than narrow nationalism
and
long term loving relationships rather than marriage in which men and women equally respect and cherish each other.
so alongside socioeconomic changes that you mentioned there are also fundamental philosophical and ideological changes...all over the world....with the rise and fall of capitalism and communism in 20th century we need a new way of thinking in 21st century to grow individually and evolve collectively.
thank you for a genuine dialogue that is becoming an exception....smiles...sohail

Dr. Sohail (#199),

Since we are largely in agreement, here are some additional (skeptical) thoughts to round out the discussion:

The institution of marriage itself is on the decline in the USA. Ironically, this decline is more obvious in lower economic classes than in the upper ones. Is marriage becoming a luxury out of the reach of the poor? I don’t think this decline has to do with some newly found sense of liberation, self-identification amongst the poor. It may have to do with financial struggles of an average Joe … which may explain the correlation with one’s economic classification.

Furthermore, it seems that “healthy-eating� and “cooking-at-home� are starting to become elitist activities in the US. It is much cheaper to pick up a “KFC bucket� or “Happy Meals� … than to prepare meals at home. And if one includes the cost of labor … in buying groceries, cooking, cleaning, doing the dishes, etc., it makes even less sense to cook at home. This financial calculus may explain why the poorer people are driven to fast-food chains more than the affluent ones.

As we all know, this cheap and quick food is damaging to one’s health. Ironically, those most likely to suffer these adverse health affects (the poor) are least likely to have the awareness or healthcare to deal with them. And this yet may kick-start a downward spiral for some and their families …

I don’t think people are driven to fast-food out of a sense of liberation from “chores of cooking and cleaning�. Rather, the reasons for this shift are to be found in silent, almost imperceptible socio-economic factors.

+++

The larger point I am trying to make is that … women desiring to have no children, decline of marriage, rise in fast-food trends … represent harsher side of the socio-economics; the response of an (below?) average Joe or Jane dealing with financial strains and inner anxieties … as they struggle to create the “dream lives� neatly packaged and mass-marketed to them.

Teshah (#194),

I agree in that … women and men have equally important, but complementary roles. Quran recognizes these differences and defines their roles in a manner that is consistent with their respective biological and psychological profiles.

While Quran gives sons larger share of inheritance (than daughters) and allows men multiple wives, it also places larger financial burden on men’s shoulders. A man is perhaps given the upper hand in decision-making … but will be judged harshly by the Almighty if he fails to deliver to his wife and children in just and equitable manner.

Treatment of women in the same manner as men in every aspect aims to erase deeply-rooted gender differences. Such viewpoints attempt to implement an ill thought-out version of equality, while ignoring larger realities of our existence.

later, have to reboot my system, it has recently suffered a creative genius overload at the expense of hamid.....

in admiration of my creative genius:

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In #250 read You buddy as Your buddy

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masadi: you are doing good!! you are well on your way to becoming famous on the Guiness Book of World Records that I mentioned below.

hamidm: instead of aiming to play golf like a white man you should aim higher and aim to play it like that half-thai-half-black man instead.

masadi mian,

....... just to make sure that you do not infect the feeble minded young ones who might stumble onto this site, i will continue to spend some time here ..... seeing that it is summer and i would like to improve my golf game so that i can play like a white man, maybe i can work out a schedule with tahmed sahib to make sure that one of us is here to block and tackle an imbecile like you ...... thank god there are not many of your other kind otherwise i would have to spend my entire life on chowk !

In #245 read "and you MORONS that have populate chowk staff are trying to encourage their BS"

and you MORONS that populate chowk staff are trying to encourage their BS

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hamidm: ok, play golf then. i am not babysitting masadi for you though.

hamidm: and i do maintain some standards. i draw the line on chatting with those with an IQ less than 23.

Re: # 236

tahmed mian,

.... anyway i have decided to work on my golf game this year before arthritis sets in ... so off i go - keep an eye on masadi and if he pops up, just whack him upside the head! .... i will be back if i can drag my sorry ass off the nineteenth ....

hamidm #235 what can be better than chatting on chowk? agreed it is a waste of time. so what. there used to be a time i barely had time to go to the loo or have my lunch. big deal.

Re: # 232

yes tahmed ji,

..... if you and i had anything better to do we would not be lowering ourselves like this - i think it is time for somone to take us out and shoot us ......... and that goes for everyone else here - we are a pathetic bunch of fools ..... pretty soon we will all need therapy like masadi ......

#233 hamidm: dont pass on recipes that you have tried on yourself with no success to poor masadi!!

masadi mian,

..... sometimes i feel realy bad for you - it must be horrible to go through life feeling unloved and unwanted ..... here is something you might want to try - every morning when you get up, look in the mirror and repeat this three times :

.... i'm good enough, i'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me......... i am a worthy human being...and that's okay"

hamidm: you mean one lowers oneself by spending time on chowk?

Re: # 228

tahmed mian,

........ unlike you, i am a realist ..... i know it 'feels' good to live in denial but it does not change reality - it is a cruel world out there .... like i have said before, when you piss in your pants it gives you a nice warm feeling but before long you begin to stink ..........

masadi: what's with this "later" and "g'nite" which is then immediately followed by more posts? you dont need to go out of your way to prove you are insane. or is this your way of getting an appointment in Dr. Sohail's busy schedule?

#226 peonsahib: but that man did turn out to be the last Romanov prince, did he not peonsahib?

hamidm #221 "the day dr hoodbhoy actually interacts on chowk i will loose all respect for him .."

spoken like a true lota, sir. you remind me of groucho marx who said he would never join any club that is willing to accept his as a member.

Re: # 226

masadi saab, we had someone like you in our mohallah saab. all the kids used to run after him saab and throw things at him saab, also some used to say ....

paaghal...e...oye............

the assorted peons write "and where has it got you saab? you are a joke saab.."

Success is not measured by position or material wealth in my definition. Even one person that I freed from the bondage of thought imposed by the white man is life time achievement enough for me. You can laugh all you want the last joke will be on your kind, the days of your master's rule are nearing their end.....then will humanity rejoice...

later....

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Re: # 214


tahmed,

......... i beg to differ with you on your statment that "Dr. Sohail participates in chowk discussions wrt his articles. Which puts him way ahead of specimen like Hoodbhoy " ........

........ look, dr hoodbhoy is somebody and anybody who is somebody would not stoop to interacting with fools like you and me and the other clowns that inhabit the chowk ..... let's be realistic and not fool ourselves - this forum is not meant fo intellectual discourse, it is meant for lufangebazi and venting by a bunch of has-been semi-retired pakis and some younger horrible hindoos who cannot get jobs as code coolies .......

......... the only redeeming feature that chowk has is that it hasn't (yet) fallen to the level that it will publish anything written by a psychopath like masadi ... the day dr hoodbhoy actually interacts on chowk i will loose all respect for him .........

Re: # 215

masadi saab(I am there, now for the past over 2 years, busting his mythology and putting him in the bad books of this dog's masters who....)

and where has it got you saab? you are a joke saab.

Re: # 212
tahmeedi saab(You have beena t it for two years now, and I know you can do it. I am rooting for you, while Hamidm and Peonofthewest can only turn green with envy at your achievement!)

i am not green saab and donot think that day will be here soon saab. masadi saab needs a shrink very urgently saab so he can feel better saab. then we can all feel better saab.

maybe not saab. if masadi saab cannot write what he writes saab, then what is he going to write saab. that is all he knows saab

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#204: Dr. Sohail is an example for what lowlife like you should try to be, instead of giving him lectures from the safety of your anonymous nick.

Dr. Sohail has the courage and self-respect to use his real name, rather than hide behind an anonymous nick like a coward as you do.

Dr. Sohail participates in chowk discussions wrt his articles. Which puts him way ahead of specimen like Hoodbhoy and others who act as if the are too good to lower themselves to discussing their articles at a mere internet discussion group where there are no important people around to impress!

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masadi: Dont let negative remarks discourage you from your struggle to make it to the Guiness Book of World Records by (to use the officil title of the category) "Remaining Continuously Self-inflated, Stupid, Abusive, Hypocritical, Lying, Self-righteous and Angry for Ten years".

You have beena t it for two years now, and I know you can do it. I am rooting for you, while Hamidm and Peonofthewest can only turn green with envy at your achievement!

Re: # 207

masadi saab
(the assorted peons writes "masadi saab we have been asking you to provide us the expertise saab..."
Hamid gave a graphic discription of that on chowk once, read through his interacts, and learn from your supervisor, the white man has designated him his chief peon on Chowk.... )

some white man has fukked u up big time saab.

..... i don't know about the rest of us, but the mothering instinct turned out be a bad thing for humanity in some cases ........ if hitler, osama, masadi, zeemax, mohammad, jesus, the dalai lama, jeffery dahmer, charles manson, peewee herman, hillary clinton, hannah montana and the irritating man who invented infomercials had been strangled by their mothers at birth we would all have been better off ......... mother does not know best after all .....

#206 Posted by masadi,

Masadi, dissing religion was fine, many people do it, but dissing the 'mother' instinct? That is indeed breaking a new record and reaching a new low of moral depth. I mean, did Dr. Sohail ask his Mom what it's about before writing this? She would have told him exactly what it was.

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Dr. Sohail,

I finally read the article, prompted by an interact below. Wow this is unbelievable. You certainly excel and break your own records in each article:

I am gradually realizing that mothering is not only an instinctual behavior it is also a learnt behaviour.

There's an old tale (in Islamic folklore) that a peron was asked by his beloved to cut out his mother's heart and bring it to her as a gift. The person did so and while carrying it to his beloved, tripped on a stone. A voice came from the heart "Beta, cha'ut tau nahi lagi?"

But this little story is just narrated to ignorant, un-evolved folks like us while being taught to respect their mothers in conjunction with the fictitious commandments written by some bedouins telling us "Jannat resides under a Mother's feet". How silly!

I wonder, however, how is it that mama kangaroos hop around with baby kangaroos in their pouches, and mama kites will come to pluck out your eyes if the eggs they're sitting on - merely eggs - not even baby kites yet, are disturbed.

I'm sure there's a perfectly logical & scientific explanation for all of above. I just need to get to it.

Dear Dr Sohail,

I didn't read your article as from the heading one can tell about its contents.

While sitting in the freezing lonely corner of Canada , your such write ups cannot even produce minor ripples in huge traditional family based, warm and pulsating societies...

All I can request from you is that please don't give your personal address and contact information to every aera ghera nathoo khaira..

Today's world is a dangerous place and some day some one may get you.

You never know who is hiding behind nicks like "charlie' or sweet "miss mona" kind of people ...I hope you understand and stop going on blind meetings..

One can tell from your photograph that you were abused by life , and you are a vulnerable displaced soul..who needs phycho therapy and help..so you need to have mercy on yourself my friend.

Re: # 202

masadi saab said(No, you listen to me, Go F yourself!)

masadi saab we have been asking you to provide us the expertise saab. we donot know how to "F ourselves" as you suggest saab.

we all know you do it regularly yourself saab. if you show it to all then we can all be self sufficient saab.

isnt that what you are trying to get all pakistanis to do saab? to be self sufficient and not rely on west saab?

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Re: # 200
it was gibberish but your wise comments made it interesting..smiles
kujh shehr day loag vi zalam sun
kujh men maran da shock vi si

such achha par us kay liay koi aur maray to aur achha....
ibn insha

Anything interesting going on here or the usual Dr. Sohail gibberish? (sorry Dr. Sohail :)

Re: # 193
dear sattar2...i fully agree with your letter. i have no bias that having no children is better than having children. i am just saying that the reality is that some people....non traditional and secular and creative tend to have less children than traditional and religious people. for me more important aspect is the element of CHOICE. if someone chooses to have 6 children that is great but if a woman chooses to have no children and become mother teresa or a nurse or a doctor or a social worker, that is great too. i have met women who feel the pressure from their conservative families and religious cultures to get married and once they are married to have children. i think as cultures are evolving more and more men and women are having more choices. if i gave an impression of value judgment that was not the intention...i was sharing my observations and trying to understand them from a psychological and sociological perspective. i think we are on the same page at least i think we are....smiles...sohail

'Pony of the West' and 'Useless Elite', are you the same person? Contact Drrrrrr. Sohail please............

Re: # 188

masadi saab, listen to westy and "the boss" saab, otherwise they will whip your ass saab. they whipped my ass once and i was not able to walk straight for years saab

it is not the content saab but the stupidity in the words saab. it gets very annoying saab like an old broken record saab.................................

Re: # 189

sorry masadi saab, "the boss" is very upset saab

Re: # 190

Masadi listen to us.

We sent you to Pakistan for a reason and you are not abiding by our rules. If you don't comply then we are going to have to terminate your contract with us.

The Peon of the West tried to warn you but you are a complete idiot.

We hope you understand.

Regards.

The US Elite

Re: # 191

Sattar2

A very realistic write-up indeed. This is what the age-old wisdom enshrined in Quran says. Men and women are 'Zoujein', complementary to one an other and not similar and equal.

“… in my opinion those men, women and couples who have less choices follow their instincts and create lots and lots of babies … when cultures provide more choices then people can choose not to follow instincts and become more creative rather than procreative ...�

Dr. Sohail (#192),

Your comment may have validity up to a certain point. What you are overlooking is that … when people have choices, arguably they want to follow their instincts! This would imply desiring to have some children - perhaps not as many as ten kids, but certainly more than none.

If a person having �too many� children supposedly has a warped outlook in life, enslaved by religious dogma, then, by similar argument, a person desiring to have no children at all too has a warped outlook, enslaved by a certain set of imposed rules. This is where you seem to take your eye off the ball.

In your writings, you seem to portray women desiring to have no children in a positive light - as liberated individuals, with strong identities, following their dreams. At the same time, you tend to portray women desiring too many children in a negative light … as bound and bogged by religious, cultural dogma.

Warped outlook remains warped outlook, regardless of its source or our personal preferences. And there is another dimension to this issue:

Human misery is a lucrative business. Keeping women from getting pregnant, esp. those below 30 years of age, is big business. Getting women pregnant, esp. those above 30 years of age, too is big business. What role is played by HMOs and for-profit corporations in this regard, cannot be ignored. From what I have observed, even western women have strong instincts to bear children. Not being able to do so often leaves them with a sense of “something missing� in their lives.

Your examples of women not wanting to have children … raise more questions than they answer. One wonders if these women are victims of inner insecurities, dysfunctional dreams, and deeper anxieties. Some people need prodding before they come out of their shells. Taking everything on face value, without exploring other possibilities, may at times lead to a flawed conclusion. Such a conclusion may fit better with one’s own preferences and values, but keeps one from getting to the truth of the matter. And at times I think you tend to err in this regard.

Re: # 191
CREATIVE OR PROCREATIVE
dear sattar....thank you for your detailed thoughts on the subject. i agree with you that changes in socio-economic conditions are affecting people's choices. to me those changes are part of evolving cultures in different parts of the world whether capitalistic or socialistic, religious or secular. in my opinion those men, women and couples who have less choices follow their instincts and create lots and lots of babies. even in the west catholic families have far more children than secular families. when cultures provide more choices then people can choose not to follow insticts and become more creative rather than procreative. sincerely sohail

Dr. Sohail, ... some (skeptical?) thoughts on the issue of gender differences.

Our limbs and body parts are accompanied with instincts on how to make the best use of them. Ears and tongue are accompanied with instincts to speak, legs and arms come with instincts to walk, teeth and jaw muscles with instincts to chew and swallow … and so on.

Functionality of a woman’s body is very much built around the tasks of conceiving, bearing, delivering, and nurturing a child. It is an intricate system, fine-tuned over billions of years. The accompanying nurturing instincts must be equally intricate and fine-tuned … and I doubt if a man’s nurturing instincts can ever be at par with those of a woman. This is an open-and-shut case in my view.

100 years of industrialization, 40 years of feminism, 20 years of information revolution is not enough to offset instincts of billion-plus years. So I remain skeptical of new-age explanations telling us that the gender gap has drastically shrunk. It has not … it remains wide as ever. Explanations insisting otherwise are based upon superficial, perfunctory analysis.

As for women/men who no longer want to have children … I think a bulk of explanation lies in the recent changes in the socio-economic structures. I think masadi is on to something here. The so-called progress is largely driven by desire and ability for Uber-consumerism … where people are mindlessly chasing images mass-marketed to them through glossy magazines, cable tv, and yes, the internet. The capitalist ideal of increasing one’s per-hour industrial productivity is neatly packaged and sold to everyone … men, women, and children. As productivity rises, so does the cost of living. One-income families yield to two-income families; it’s a downward spiral. Soon, Credit appears on the scene, followed by cars that change every year, designer clothes, packaged frozen food, and now, HDTVs. It is a race to the bottom. Who has time for children?

+++

Fatherhood may very well be an innate instinct … whereby the father ensures propagation of his genes to the next generation. Perhaps fathers taught their children how to climb tress, in primitive days; shooting arrows, in later days; and how to get into a good college, nowadays. The underlying theme remains constant more or less … to teach their children how to survive and excel in a given environment.

Hamidm, or any other man, would perhaps be more inclined to jump off the bridge to save his wife if she was pregnant, esp. with their first child. This inclination would probably recede as she bears more children, as she ages, as her fertility declines. I think these are facts disturbing to some, and hence the new-age humanism, which largely fails to account for the bleak side of our existence.

+++


I remain skeptical of ideologies that downplay gender differences. That is not to say that men’s and women’s roles are completely exclusive; nay, there’s a significant overlap. I view the two genders operating in spheres of life, with complementary primary and secondary roles.

Primarily, men are best suited for earning a living; women, for taking care of the household. That’s simply how their respective instincts have evolved and exist today. At a secondary level, these roles may be switched … with men changing diapers and women sharing the burden of making a living. This sharing of responsibilities takes the burden off the stressed partner, giving him/her time to regain strength and composure … after which they return to the roles they are best suited for.

Yes, a woman can be trained for a full-time corporate role and a man may be trained to become a full-time nanny. Similarly, a cat, with enough training, may learn to bark and look after a herd. Doing so would be an immensely inefficient process. Eventually these inefficiencies will cost mankind in more ways than one.

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Re: # 181
dear dr shah murad...i like your enthusiasm. my sister lives in lahore but i am in canada and have a creative psychotherapy clinic. please write to me on my personal
email address...
welcome@drsohail.com
and we can chat
sincerely
khalid sohail
www.drsohail.com
ps...the last time i was in lahore was to interview javed iqbal mughal in his death cell in kot lakhpat jail in 2000

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good dr saheb.
nice to interact wd u.
u wrote story of my mind on "psychology of mothering".
by the way where u work now a days?
I m Dr.Shah Murad,Associate Professor in Pharmacology deptt: at lahore medical and dental college,LAHORE.
my cell # is 0314-2243415
What is ur cell # sir?

good dr saheb.
nice to interact wd u.
u wrote story of my mind on "psychology of mothering".
by the way where u work now a days?
I m Dr.Shah Murad,Associate Professor in Pharmacology deptt: at lahore medical and dental college,LAHORE.
my cell # is 0314-2243415
What is ur cell # sir?

masadi: since i can see you have made an attempt to write like something approaching a civilized man (try avoiding references to balls in future) rather than a maniac, I'll tell you why the substance of what you wrote in #161 is bs. This is why:

You are merely repeating long discarded beliefs when you say "mental ailments tht are quite social in their cause, treating them as if they were private problems requiring a quick fix pill". This displays your ignorance of modern psychiatry. Here is something to get you to started on the basics (from wikipedia):

Following Sigmund Freud's death, ideas stemming from psychoanalytic theory also began to take root.[48] The psychoanalytic theory became popular among psychiatrists because it allowed the patients to be treated in private practices instead of asylums.[48] However the progress of psychiatry by the 1970s turned psychoanalytic theory into a marginal school of thought within the field.[48]


Otto Loewi's work led to the identification of the first neurotransmitter, acetylcholine.This period of time saw the reemergence of biological psychiatry. Psychopharmacology became an integral part of psychiatry starting with Otto Loewi's discovery of the first neurotransmitter, acetylcholine.[49] Neuroimaging was first utilized as a tool for psychiatry in the 1980s.[50] The discovery of chlorpromazine's effectiveness in treating schizophrenia in 1952 revolutionized treatment of the disease, [51] as did lithium carbonate's ability to stabilize mood highs and lows in bipolar disorder in 1948.[52] While psychosocial issues were still seen as valid, psychotherapy was seen to be their "cure."[53] Genetics were once again thought to play a role in mental illness.[49] Molecular biology opened the door for specific genes contributing mental disorders to be identified.[49] By 1995 genes contributing to schizophrenia had been identified on chromosome 6 and those genes contributing to bipolar disorder on chromosomes 18 and 21.[49]

The numbers themselves 22% of the population to 80% suggest that such ailments are not personal in character but rather are social and need solutions aimed at a structure that is producing such ailments regardless of personal character or idiosyncrasies. If we followed the shrink mode of treatment, there would be no need for epidimologists and epidemic patterns would never be studied to get to the source of the spread, whole populations would be wiped out as people went about treating the person only- this however is not how it is supposed to work- it worked like that in the dark ages and the white man lost entire cities to disease.....tahmed as an apologist for the elite would i) mask the distress that shows up in a wide percent of the US population because of their system ii)sacrifice the majority to save the system of his masters. He should be horsewhipped, put on a donkey and jeered through every town of every country of the world, like the olympic torch as kids whip his a$$ with slippers....

BTW According to the Chicago Trib's report, estimates suggest that up to 80% of US society displays some form of psychological symptoms, and that up to 22% have psychological problems serious enough to interfere with their day to day living which are diagnosable (Chicago Tribune 12/1999). The number of registered shrinks is the highest it has ever been in the US, number of prescriptions they give out is also a record that shows regular increase, YET these shrinks claim that they fix people's problems by treatment at the private level- Of course they are full of BS and are making money at the expense of the public by hoodwinking them with their nonsense and drugging them to deal with the injustices of an alienating system they live under because for the tens of millions alcohol as escape is just not strong enough, and other escapes like over consumption have produced a massively obese society.....these shrink are mere tools in the hands of the elite to mitigate the effects of a system that is barbarous to the core.....

In addition to #161 that these shrinks cannot refute, let me post this news report:..

---
Stay calm everyone, there's Prozac in the drinking waterMark Townsend The Observer,
Sunday August 8 2004
This article appeared in the Observer on Sunday August 08 2004 on p1 of the News section.

It should make us happy, but environmentalists are deeply alarmed: Prozac, the anti-depression drug, is being taken in such large quantities that it can now be found in Britain's drinking water.

Environmentalists are calling for an urgent investigation into the revelations, describing the build-up of the antidepressant as 'hidden mass medication'. The Environment Agency has revealed that Prozac is building up both in river systems and groundwater used for drinking supplies.

The government's chief environment watchdog recently held a series of meetings with the pharmaceutical industry to discuss any repercussions for human health or the ecosystem.

The discovery raises fresh fears that GPs are overprescribing Prozac, Britain's antidepressant of choice. In the decade up to 2001, overall prescriptions of antidepressants rose from nine million to 24 million a year.

A recent report by the Environment Agency concluded Prozac could be potentially toxic in the water table and said the drug was a 'potential concern'.

However, the precise quantity of Prozac in the nation's water supplies remains unknown. The government's Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) said Prozac was likely to be found in a considerably 'watered down' form that was unlikely to pose a health risk.

Dr Andy Croxford, the Environment's Agency's policy manager for pesticides, told The Observer: 'We need to determine the effects of this low-level, almost continuous discharge.'

Norman Baker, the Liberal Democrat's environment spokesman, said the revelations exposed a failing by the government on an important public health issue. He added that the public should be told if they were inadvertently taking drugs like Prozac.

'This looks like a case of hidden mass medication upon the unsuspecting public,' Baker said. 'It is alarming that there is no monitoring of levels of Prozac and other pharmacy residues in our drinking water.'

Experts say that Prozac finds its way into rivers and water systems from treated sewage water. Some believe the drugs could affect their reproductive ability.

European studies have also expressed disquiet over the impact of pharmaceuticals building up in the environment, warning that an effect on wildlife and human health 'cannot be excluded'.

'It is extremely unlikely that there is a risk, as such drugs are excreted in very low concentrations,' a DWI spokesman said. 'Advanced treatment processes installed for pesticide removal are effective in removing drug residues,' he added.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/aug/08/health.mentalhealth

tahmed writes "as for the substance of what you wrote, that was bs of course.."

Please tell us how and why its BS, rather than this cheap one liner, otherwise the kind people here might be forced to conclude that you lack the brains and the balls to respond to your opponents quite well thought out and argued post....

teshah: slyder actually is actually a balding, portly mid-40's uncle with a special interest in internet porn (I am not making this up - his contributions to unplugged consist basically of porn postings of girls half his age). chowk took away his nick (which was Ali1, black sheep of the St. Mary's alumni), and he has been slyding off-balance ever since, completely in denial that he is anything but a schoolboy himself.

masadi: #161 you actually managed to write a post without slipping into your native language (i.e. bark! bark!). i am impressed. give yourself a pat on the back. no need to thank me for the appreciation though..helping troubled youth is after all the reason we ancient uncles are there. you may break into your native language (i.e. bark! bark!) in response to this post though, since it would be expecting too much of you to control yourself in your excitement at having made a good impression on me.

as for the substance of what you wrote, that was bs of course. but dont let that discourage you. one step at a time. rome wasnt built in a day, nor will you become sane with one post either.

so focus on getting your form right, and then next year we'll start working on getting your substance right as well!! substance follows form, at least in your case. within a couple of decades, your ignorance will be a thing of the past and we will then all be able to laugh about it. without even the need for laughing gas, as suggested by your kindly uncle Anil sahib!!

Re: # 165

"...if you were to prescribe a drug to treat Masadi's neuroses, what would be it be?..."

Prescribe him laughing gas, Massaddi Mian probably has not laughed all his life.

Re: # 165

"...if you were to prescribe a drug to treat Masadi's neuroses, what would be it be?..."

Prescribe him laughing gas, Massaddi Mian probably has not laughed all his life.

Re: # 150

Slyder

I wonder how you came to know about the problems of the 50+, especially their erectile dysfunction?

Don't be disappointed as surgery can today make them more functional erectically than the normal one. Dr AKCheema can perhaps advise us in this respect.

Re: # 166

All I was trying, was to point out to the author, that his having daughters may be the reason for his pro-feminist biases. Obviously fathers do not have a say in the gender of the children they concieve, or a very insignificant portion do. But its a mystery why 'female-foeticide', if the feminists are to be believed, exists, because from statistics, more suicides are by males - by some 4 to 1!

Here is an article I picked from the morning paper. Looks like the Supreme Court needs a psychotherapist like the author!


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Couple_told_to_reunite_after_17-year_sepa ration/articleshow/2960404.cms

Re: # 164

Massaddi Mian:

"You shrinks make me sick.....g'night..."

So each night you to bed feeling sick. No wonder. Lage Raho Massaddi Mian, Lage Raho.

Re: # 159
dear bubba..Scott Peck is a very respectable writer. I liked his book
World Waiting to be born
but i think his definition is a bit bland. Accepting onself and others is part of it but it also has more. Love is a passion and affection and creativity that we all experience but cannot describe. Over here we are talking about nurturing and caring that parents feel instinctively and develop culturally for their children. greeks also separated platonic...friendly love from erotic...romantic love....sohail

"Fathers of girls have this natural affinity for females".

So are male off-springs either a result of rape or all conceived in test-tubes, given that their fathers do not possess any affinity towards females?

Dr. Sohail and Others, if you were to prescribe a drug to treat Masadi's neuroses, what would be it be?

I am thinking nerve gas

You shrinks make me sick.....g'night

The shrink writes " i share with couples that love that does not have genuine respect is suspicious.."

Another goddamned Deepak Chopra, and they pay him their hard earned money for this BS, can't you see they are clutching at straws, they get a cock and bull tale from their preacher and an equally outrages nonsense (borrowed from the lovey dovey preachers) from their shrink...they cannot see their society how it is setup to manipulate, frustrate and ruin them and their relationships, they cannot see this, they cannot change the system so they go to these morons pushed by the elite that convince them that their problems and their troubles are their own creating they are "private" and "unique" and not public and social...that is why these shrinks live off the flesh of the public and serve the powers that be....

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Re: # 152

Massaddi Mian:

"...Khalid Sahib: i agree that all normal human beings who are brought up in healthy families, communities and cultures have a feeling of empathy, caring and love for other human beings...."

Kuch seekhiye, your 18 statges will be in the past too. You would not have learned even from a Chabriwala of Gujranwala.

Re: # 157

Dr. Sahib,

This is how Scott Peck (I have no idea who the heck he is?) defines love:

"Love is to accept yourself and others exactly as you are and as you are not. It is the courage to contribute to yourself or to the other."

What are your thoughts on such a definition?

Massaddi Mian:

Did you ever watch "Lage Raho Munnabhai"?

Lage Raho Massaddi Mian, Lage Raho.

Re: # 154
dear bubba....you asked simple but profound question, people have written books about love. let me share my view in a few words.
for me healthy love between two human beings is a mixture of affection and respect in which both parties bring out the best in each other. in healthy romantic love friendship is the cake and romance the icing. for me in unhealthy love one exploits and manipulates and abuses the other. i share with couples that love that does not have genuine respect is suspicious...that is my humble opinion. sincerely sohail

Bubba asks the shrink "how do you define love"

Same as the Christian missionary would define it in a most hypocritical manner, God loved the world so much that he butchered his sinless son for them, so the white man has been butchering the innocent all over the globe because doing so is a profession of "love"- they profess love while they butcher entire countries from a distance....

social regularities and patterns irrespective of the so-called "unique" choices....(showing that somehow through some magic, the population as a whole (under study) is making the SAME "unique" choices....

Re: # 151 Posted by drsohail on April 17, 2008 11:10:32 am

Dr. Sohail Sahib,

How do you define love?

The shrink writes "and each person and family in 21st century makes unique choices. we are living in a changing world...."

More crap from the shrink. There are no unique choices even though you might feel yours to be unique when you live in a society that has constraints, rules and forces which produce social regularities and patters irrespective of the so-called "unique" choices- for most its moronic adaptation- waqt ke saazish that they follow thinking its their "unique" choice when their strings are being tugged and pulled in a thousand directions rendering them helpless in a social structure whose forces they do not understand and whose constraints they cannot see. Shut up with this love BS that is itself pushed for the purpose of distraction to a society that is blase, uncaring and numb to the pain of the others and tolerates carnage after carnage by their elite. Humans have not evolved in the West, the Barbarians worse in their barbarism than the cave man have overtaken the world and enforce their BS through window dressing and morally loaded master symbols for the purpose of deception- you are their jamadar....

anil writes " I recall my classes at HBS, the organizational psychology professor ...."

Mian they didn't teach you how to write a decent sentence in English at HBS (Harvard Business School) but taught you the 18 odd stages of human development? and gave you an email to prove that you had been to HBS?

BTW Hamid "came out different" because unlike the bureaucratized societies of the so called developed West where the personality is saturated by moronic rules and produce standardized morons, the traditions and rules based on social and not corporate precident allow a lot more freedom which this fool has misused and converted himself into the standardized slave that the West converts our kinds into....you on the other hand are exempt because you lack the skills to properly receive the message of the corporations, they are working hard on their Hindlish but so far haven't mastered your language, HBS or not.....

Re: # 149
dear anil...i am so impressed by your detailed letter. i agree that all normal human beings who are brought up in healthy families, communities and cultures have a feeling of empathy, caring and love for other human beings. that feeling of love needs an object or a person to share it with. it startes with loving your mother, father and siblings and extends to aunts, uncles and grandparents. and then to children. there was a time we lived in a tribe but the ...journey from tribe...to extended family...to nuclear family...to single parent family...to immigration and living away from your family is increasing all over the world. such changes are changing the basic nature of humanity and human beings...it is slow but it is there...so nature and nurture...personality and culture are in a new relationship and dilemma. more and more children are not receiving that love that they need and deserve and that experience is changing how they deliver love back to children. that is where gentics...psychology...and sociology cross paths....and each person and family in 21st century makes unique choices. we are living in a changing world. that was the focus of my article. as far as future is concerned your guess is as good as mine...thanks again for your thoughtful letter
..all the best...sohail

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Re: # 138

Khalid sahib:

"..i agree with you we all have instincts to care about our families. but our culture is redefining our families.....broadening it and it is part of evolution of our culture....."

The only thing it tells me is that we do not live in isolation.

Allow me to present my thought process that family is evolving more because "life moves on...". Surroundings is the universe for this family. The family must live in this universe.

As a baby grows into a child, its behavior evolves. At this stage babies universe is limited and needs are limited. Parents bring "cultural / religious" influence. Baby could not care about these "cultural / religious" inputs, even though in his / her life he / she could become a father / mother. The same applies at other stages in evolution. Life keeps moving - universe becomes larger new things are added, and eventually this person may also become a father/mother. I think even if this person behavior is now entirely due to culutural or religious influence, yet the desire to become father / mother is primal, and invoke primal instintcs.

Due to evolution, his basic primal instincts may look very remote, yet they are analyzed when this person does extraordinary things, why?

I recall my classes at HBS, the organizational psychology professor handed out a sheet that defined life into 18 stages. Each stage with very distinct behaviors. I kept this handout with me for a very long time, and refered to it many times.

Experiences durin evolution at, and through each stage in life impacts us more than "culture" etc. Experience is internal and "culture" etc. is external. It is for this experience, Hamidm sahib came out so differently from Massaddi Mian despite being immersed in the same culture and religion.

Just see todays news, FLDS families. Polygomous families versus monogomous families that you, Hamidm Sahib and I have lived. What separates us our experiences and choices we made to evolve through each stage.

Yet there is a primal instinct these polygomous mothers were crying for their children too. I wish they would show what was happening to their fathers, I bet they too were crying and hurting.

How do you explain a bond that remains unaffected?

I wonder if the mother and father of the murderer who is being put to death, feel for their murderer offspring. My answer would be that they do feel for offspring too.

I have given these extreme examples to define the "space" in-between, where "normals" live. Can you see a continum in this space that I see and call it primal instinct of mothering (by extension Hamidm sahib may call it fathering also).

We all have it for as long as we live. We may taint it with culture, religion, or hide it underneath layers of emotions. There always comes a time when it shows. That is why I am certain that eyes of the mother of a muderer would well up too, when her son is being put to death.

Something is very primal about it. We may internally fight to conquer it or bury it underneath other layers.

Don't you think it is always with us? Although, I do wonder, if Hitler when blowing his brains off had it at that instant.

Re: # 147

tahmed,

.... you are right, masadi is the lowest of the low ....... he is even lower than the the scum on the bottom of the pond (not the stuff floating on the top) ....... he is even lower than mirzaees !

#145 hamidm: even i would never go so low as to compare you with masadi.

as for the austrian, far from being a hero in psychiatry today he is seen as having put back real progress by half a century by sending off everyone on a wild goose chase (i.e. having patients talk out their childhood issues). Psychiatry was revolutionized in the 1950's by pure accident - when they discovered lithium fixed bipolar disease.

And stop trying to win lota-points with the good Dr Sohail by bad mouthing me while saying "i do respect your opinions". Unlike the scoundrel musharraf, Dr. Sohail is not flattered by lotas.

mad masadi,

"People like this miserable fool should be horsewhipped, put on a goddamned donkey and jeered all through Lahore town as kids cane his ass with slippers"

..... you know that could be said for half the people on chowk - i don't know if we can find enough donkeys or slippers ....

Re: # 138

sohail sahib,

..... i might disagree with you but unlike masadi's nonsense and tahmed's wet dreams, i do respect your opinions ...... some of my best friends are shrinks and if it makes you feel any better i also believe that dermatologists are quacks who have one cure for every ailment - steroid lotion .... and if that doesn't work, steroid injection......... so keep it up - you never know, that austrian quack might have been right about oedipus and electra .....

.... but you have to agree with me that this love shove business is a quaint concept made popular by st valentine but it is highly overrated ........ men are not monogamous by nature, or to quote mrs hamidm, " they are pigs!" ..... no ?

nb #136 I am sure there are exceptions, so this story must be a true one.

#139 Campfollower Masadi: bark! bark!! i didnt read this post of yours either!! bark! bark!!

PS to others: being culturally sensitive, I try to throw in a few words of greeting in masadi's language.

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Hamid writes " a fool like masadi is convinced that the us elite is behind all evil on earth..."

When you have a global structure with the level of concentration never before seen in human history, of the economy, of the military and related industries, of information and of culture generation so that even the absurdly ignorant fools tout "globalization, globalization"- you know that decision having major consequences- country wiping out consequence, economic collapse world over consequences are caused by the relatively few that are at leadership position of those concentrated institutions- they are the elite who are responsible no doubt for major shocks and their consequences around the globe, Gul Zaman cannot move millions of soldiers half way across the globe and setup a network of military bases or determine trade ties that will make or break farmers now can he?

The little humanness left in your dung infested brain is crying out for release, it comes out sometimes in your writings like the one on Gul Zaman, don't feed it more shit, let it out- that is your only hope fool....

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Re: # 137
dear hamid m2....every human being has a unique way of experiencing and sharing love. every man has a unique experience of being a father. how do people explain their love for a wife, child or a stranger's child?. i agree with you we all have instincts to care about our families. but our culture is redefining our families.....broadening it and it is part of evolution of our culture..dear friend you do not have to agree with me and i am okay with that. i have no desire to convince you. i respect your ideas even when i disagree as it has been a genuine dialogue..i was reluctant but you insisted and thank you for the inspiration...sincerely.sohail

dr shohail sahib,

i beg to differ with your statement that "fathering feeling is attached to the children of the woman they love whether the child is their biological child or not does not matter"

......... love for a woman is a fleeting thing regardless of what mills and boon say about it - it is overly hyped, romanticized and commercialized by hallmark and the flower business ........ your guru, the crazy austrian, loved his sister-in-law more than his wife and prophets like abraham and mohammad were messing around with concubines like hagar and mariam even though they were in 'love' with their many wives .... however, they went almost went insane with grief when they lost a child ......

..... so, love for a woman can pass very quickly ....... but love for your child does not end just because you stop loving their mother ....... as mrs hamidm says, "men are scum, and if it wasn't for the children, most men would jump into the sack with the first bimbo who flashes a little cleveage!"

#134, tahmed32,
Did you read "Digging to America" by Anne Tyler? It's about two families who adopt Korean kids, and one family is Iranian. Doubtless the book has an explanation for this, but I couldn't read it despite all it's glowing reviews and despite my being a fan of the author's, because I couldn't get past the improbability of Iranians adopting a Korean child.

hamidm2, can I just say that Freud said did not once state that there is only sexual attraction in the parent-child relationship? I have heard paedophiles use Freud to explain their behaviour. I expect you to know better.
parthaab, how long do you intend to carry out this jihad against (mainly Indian)women?
mr cheema, sir,(you did say surgeon, right?) check out what Polynesians eat

#133 got messed up. here is the complete post:

Dr Sohail. Read your article. You are right that we are going through a historic time of change in attitudes towards childbearing.

In the US, many people have already moved beyond concepts of blood ties (or its extended version of tribal ties, ethnic ties, racial ties) and adopt children who have no relation to them. Some examples which made the news include the bangladeshi child adopted by McCain and the african child adopted by Angelina Jolie.

On the other hand, I have known only one Pakistani couple who adopted children who have no relation to them - virtually every other adoption has been of a nephew or neice whose parents are living but are not well off.

So - I think the concept of blood ties is overdone. Blood used to be thicker than water in traditional societies - not any more.

?) child adopted by Angelina Jolie).

On the other hand, I have known only one Pakistani couple who adopted children who have no relation to them - virtually every other adoption has been of a nephew or neice whose parents are living but are not well off.

So - I think the concept of blood ties is overdone. Blood used to be thicker than water in traditional societies - not any more.

Re: # 131; Correction...

only feel the 'attachment' is true; realistically

should read .....feel the 'attachment' after childbirth is true;......

Re: # 128; hamidm sahib; (Re:based on personal experience i am convinced that there is a lot more to a parent-child relationship than the simple sexual fantasies proposed by an austrian pervert ...)

Personal experience is exactly what carries the most weight here. The assertion that a father would only feel the 'attachment' is true; realistically that is the only time he is confronted with the reality; something the woman would be used to over the duration of the pregnancy. That alone is not a sufficient argument to discard your theory, as attempted by No: 129 by the author (though I don't doubt his sincerity for a minute).

I felt exactly what you described; if there is anything at all in life I am sure of, it is that I'd gladly sacrifice anything I possess without a second thought, including life itself, for my daughter. To name that emotion simply as an extention of the love for my wife is totally absurd.

Re: # 128; hamidm sahib

That is more or less what I was trying to say. I am glad I am at the the same wavelength with at least one other soul in the world at large!

Cheers

Re: # 121
dear hamid m2...i am a great supporter of fathering and encouraging that more fathers need to take part in parenting. but that is part of being cultured and civilized and for men to feel responsible. in my opinion for men to discover the biology of fathering was a mixed blessing
...on one hand they got more involved with parenting..a good development
...on the other hand they became more controlling as husbands and started giving their names to children...became part of patriarchal system
in many religious and cultural traditions children are known by their mothers. a jew is a jew whose mother is a jew. many muslims also believe that on the day of judgment they will be called by their mother's names.
some of my male friends told me that they did not feel the fathering emotional feeling...the bond... when their children were born but felt guilty and did not tell their wives but after a few weeks they felt a strong fathering...paternal feeling and were relieved.
all i am saying is that for a woman to carry a baby for 9 months is a very visceral and physical and emotional experience. it is not the same for the father. but i respect and admire those fathers who have the feeling and encourage and suport others to get involved with their children.
for many men the fathering feeling is attached to the children of the woman they love whether the child is their biological child or not does not matter.
all the best...sohail

Re: # 121

cheema sahib,

..... the problem with psychologists, sociologists and other social 'scientists' is that they all belong to one or the other school of thought which is based on a set of theories that a few 'gurus' have developed over time and which have been accepted as the gospel by a certain number of people ..... for every theory that you have out there, there are many others that are diametriclly opposite ........ in that respect, sociology and psycology are like religion ..... a fool like masadi is convinced that the us elite is behind all evil on earth, while another fool like tahmed is convinced that the moon god controls the universe without any help from his daughters .....

....... so doctor sohail might be wrong, but he is sincere in his opinion and i am sure some of his patients will respond to his psychotherapy techniques ....... others will end up in the looney bin or jump off the bridge - they would have been better off listening to a charlatan like dr deepak chopra or joining a yogananda ashram in montreal .....

........having said that, even real mind doctors (psychiatrists) are quacks as far as i am concerned - if you take way their prozac, ritalin and half a dozen other popular drugs they have nothing else to offer ......

.... as always, i have no real scientific evidence to offer but, based on personal experience i am convinced that there is a lot more to a parent-child relationship than the simple sexual fantasies proposed by an austrian pervert ...... dr. sohail is a good man, but we must take his advice with a truck load of salt or we will end up like tony soprano ..........

Re: # 126; tahmed

I am not sure what you are implying in the last two posts. Yes I have performed dissections many a times including in the very recent past; one way to keep updated with anatomy of course.

Mind/brain was an open-ended scenario; I believe less and less in the 'mind' and more and more in the 'brain' as time goes; a lot of what was originally thought to be mind - the abstract, has been discovered/revealed in brain - the physical/biological/chemical terms over the last quarter of a century, and the process in an ongoing one; I suppose that is what science means to me as opposed to belief.

I stand by my total disdain and contempt for 'belief' as we know it; nothing new there! The former (science/knowledge) unveils new horizons to explore where the latter (faith/belief) seeks to confirm what exists and constantly gets reaffirmed by the feeble-minded. The difference to the 'seeing' eye is of a great magnitude indeed.

I leave you with your happy thoughts Tahmed bhai......just don't get too carried away....

cheema: the dissection i referred to is of course practiced in medical colleges in pakistan, so i am surprised you thought it was incorrect for me to point to your having performed dissections. my own cousin once got locked in a room with dissected cadavers in lahore and spent a few hours enjoying the company until finally the chowkidar came to her rescue, but that is another story...

as for muslims not donating bodies for scientific research - that has to do with social and education factors, not religion. Grave-robberies were widespread in the west until the end of the 19th centuries as a result.

#85 cheema: on the difference between the brain and mind - actually, i dont know the difference. In fact no one really knows given that neither the workings of the brain nor of the mind are fully understood.

What i do understand is this: advancements in neurology indicate that more and more of what we thought to be the "mind" is being explained by the physical workings of the brain.

Re: # 121; hamidm sahib,

I think I'd agree with you rather than Dr Sohail on this one. I noticed, as a father of a seven year old, the connection is far stronger than what could just be explained by 'instinct or the lack of it' as Dr Sohail is trying to present.

This could also be applied to the odd story of 'mixed up babies' at birth with the child ending up being brought up by 'non-biological' parents, unknowingly; where is the 'maternal instict' there? Or does the 'leaky boob story' (someone mentioned before) still hold true?

What we do now a days is far more a result of our upbringing and the social structure we live in than simple instinct. It is 'non-conscious' animals that live with instinct; humans live by the rules of society and this 'instinct' business is dictated by the same.

Different rules might apply to 'primitive' cultures where 'animal instincts' are still rife and might be determining factors instead (to a variable extent).

The same holds true for people trying to criticise 'natural selection' and its apparent lack of impact on humans (by what we can determine); as humans we have learnt to 'control' nature and modify its course. In a primitive setting, all the 'bad' genes would be wiped out in the course of a handful of generations; as 'civilised' humans, we tend to keep this gene pool going due to societal/ethical pressures (its important to make it clear that I am not advocating genetic cleansing here!) by allowing all, irrespective of their usefulness (diasabilities etc), to survive and pass on their genes successfully.

I quote an example here (since polynesians are mentioned). I was working up a patient for kidney transplant (donated by her mother). She happened to be a young attractive Maori girl from New Zealand; mother was, although healthy, quite overweight. In my mind I was trying to picture this girl 'turning into her mother' in due course, so to speak. Then I looked around and saw that most polynesian women after a certain age were overweight and looking at the reason behind it discovered that it was simply 'natural selection'! Due to repeated weather dependent yearly famines, in primitive times they would have had to 'accumulate' body fat, to burn off later in times of need. Since the only (or majority) genes that survived were of 'fat' people, we have a whole race of people who are 'big-boned' so to speak. Now they won't/can't loose weight because there is no famine! This can be extrapolated to many other parts of the world quite easily.

So to attempt to apply 'instinct' to explain any human behaviour is a gross over-simplification to say the least!

they believed that mothering was the most loving role a woman can perform in her life. Some of them considered it holy and sacred. Their traditional,conservative and religious families had told them that paradise existed under the feet of mothers.

Dr sahib with due respect I would say that, it was your prospective, observation or understanding. your paradigms. It is not only their belief but a universal one! I would rephrase that it is not told so but taught so, by their Prophet SAW, (not by their families) who was not so consevative even from a none Muslim point of view. it is embeded chip, well planted seed by nature!

Re: # 100

What I was thinking of, was to have a girl child instead. And Sohails reply only proved my point!

Sigh...does nt matter what we do, as long as we respect the girls, I guess. Right? ;-)

Re: # 119

dr sohail sahib,

..... it is good to know that inner city african american men are doing what comes naturally ....... based on your and teshah's expert opinion i will make sure i change my unnatural behavior and stop paying attention to my offspring's nourishment and other needs ....... it will save me a lot of time and money that i can spend at my favourite bar ........ it is also good to know that there is at least a fifteeen percent chance that my father was not my father - this way i don't have to feel guilty about not remembering his birthday and death anniversary ......

....... you forgot to mention that the african and polynesian tribes you talk about also run around half naked and have to chase their dinner ........ i would like to think that men in more civilized cultures think and act a little differently ..... but if you say that there is no such thing as 'fathering' i will accept your professional opinion even though my gut tells me you are wrong .....

Re: # 119

Khalid sahib:

Don't you think that it is an unbalanced example?

I am certain, if custody of the child is confused among mothers, and father is not changed, fathering will come out too. I thought you did eluded to some examples of uncaring mothers. This scenario that I painted, and Hamidm sahib's examples show that there is incomplete understanding of fathering. I am certain you must have felt those pangs also.

Re: # 109
dear hamid m 2...if you would like to have serious answer then i believe mothering is a natural instinctive response of nurturing but father's response is not. many anthropologists told us that there was a time human beings did not know that having a baby was related to the sexual act that took place nine months ago. even now in many african tribes young women and men sleep with many and some women have babies, nobody knows who the father is. nobody actually cares. freud was criticized by sociologists that oedipus complex was a european concept of a nuclear family. in many cultures maternal uncle is responsible of child not the father. even in punjabi there is a saying...mama lagna ain...so fatherhood is a social not a biological concept. in the book Spermwars the writer proves that 1 in 7 grandmothers lied. so 15 % of people do not have the fathers they believe are the fathers. can you imagine doing tests in any country and finding out that 15% of children have been living a lie. i have two patients who told me that their children do not know who the real father is. they do not know the truth. i hope i answered your question...all the best...sohail

Re: # 99

Gul Rehman with having 5 daughters and still poor!

This reminds me of a recent episode in my neighbourhood. It so happened that 5 cycles had been stolen in a week in our street when the theif, a young Pathan boy was caught red-handed. He was given a good thrashing and then handed over to the police. Our front-door neighbour, a professor, whose son's cycle was stolen pursued the case with the police and told me the proceedings of the case. He told me that the police took the theif to his house where he had stated the stolen cycles were lying. There the police saw some young beautiful sisters of the thief. The professor said that he was surprised when the police advised the thief as to why he did not use his young beautiful sisters to become rich instead of stealing cycles as a petty thief. So bearing of daughters is in fact a good investment in some sections of pathans and kabulies who sell their daughters.

Re: # 115
Your last post leads one to believe that you are an epitome of a condecending pompous ass.

#115 hamidm: Advising a starving man to stop creating more mouths to feed is being a "pompous ass"? Why dont you inquire from Dr Sohail the long-term affects on the brain of drinking?

Re: # 105

anil mian,

"Gul Rehman's math may be right, but very short sighted. His economics of getting out of poverty is completely wrong."

........ like i said before, i don't necessarily agree with gul rehman's economic theory, but i am not a pompous ass who will stand there and argue with a man who is one meal away from starvation .......

Re: # 113

tahmed,

... what is my excuse ? ...... i just happen to understand how a hungry man thinks

#111 hamidm: gul rehman is irrational because he is worried about his next meal. what is your excuse?

hamidm #109 Dr. Sohail has better use of his time than taking you seriously. You are stuck with chowk riff-raff like me.

Re: # 105

anil mian,

.... i did not say that i agree with gul rehman's logic - but it is hard for a guy to be 'logical' when all he is worried about is the next meal ...... people like tahmed and masadi belong in the same category - they are both delusional and out of touch with reality .........

hamidm #102
gul rehman may have struck you as a financial genius, but as i said and as Anil Sahib also believes, he is merely being short-sighted.

To illustrate the short-sightedness: if instead of one daughter you too were blessed with 5, like gul rehman. Now imagine (heaven forbid) it is not one but all 5 who are calling for help from the middle of the river. Perhaps you will jump 5 times as fast to help them - but regardless of your good intentions, no doubt you wont be able to save more than one or two.

Replace the river with real life. And maybe you will get a sense for how totally wrong you are.

Re: # 104

dr sohail sahib,

... i cannot let you wriggle out of this one ! ..... just disregard my humor and cynicism and answer the simple question : is 'motherhood' and 'fatherhood' a simple biological response or not ? .... my contention is that it is a primal instinct that does not require a whole lot of scientific and philosophical analysis .......

.....so, what is your answer ?

hamidm #101 your "now that we have set tahmed straight" reminds me of the senator who said "lets declare victory and get out of vietnam". I did not run away - I did not respond because I went out and planted a new tree on this beautiful sunny day. And hopefully this new tree will cleanse the air of the additional carbon dioxide that gul khan's continued production is going to contribute to the world your children will live in 20 years from now.

Re: # 102

Hamidm sahib:

"... "what if one of our daughters fell in, would you jump in" ..... without any hesitation i replied, " yes!" ......... "

Moral of the story is that father will, and husband might not. Instinct is primal, Dr. Watson. You proved it second time. Khalid sahib, might like to research it more in his practice.

Re: # 102

Hamidm sahib:

"... "what if one of our daughters fell in, would you jump in" ..... without any hesitation i replied, " yes!" ......... "

Moral of the story is that father will, and husband might not. Instinct is primal, Dr. Watson. You proved it second time. Khalid sahib, might like to research it more in his practice.

Re: # 91

Hamidm sahib:

"...gul rehman who seems to be a better economist than you, set me straight with some simple math ...... "

Gul Rehman's math may be right, but very short sighted. His economics of getting out of poverty is completely wrong. In bihari, fuedals called them "Daridra Narayan" - God of poverty - and worshipped them once a year.

Gul Rehman - like daridra narayan - is using his procreation to create more economic misery. Some God for sure, he is indeed on opium of procreation.

This is the tragedy, Hamidm sahib.

Tahmed sahib is showing a way. You are paying for books and tution for the kid (not for the marriage), and this retired Colonel is helping break this vicious addiction.

If you ever go to New Delhi, I will suggest you to visit a school, my mother had started 40 years ago. About 100 kids complete their middle school each year. That is 4,000 kids who could come out grinding poverty. This school has been empowering kids of Gul Rehmans (yes, 25% are muslim kids in this school) of New Delhi.

My elder sister who retired last year, the other still runs it, told me that many times kids come and touched her feet in public places to tell her that had it not been for the education they receieved, they would never have dreamt to become charterd accountant and be working in Dubai, or become an engineer etc.. Instead they would have remained a maali, sweeper (bhangi) or a driver much as their father.

One acid test, Hamidm Sahib, is that if Massaddi Mian agrees with you then what you are saying must not be entirely correct deduction. You should invite Tahmed sahib for your merlot sessions, and can buy me too if you ever come to San Francisco.

Sad part is that Massaddi Mians of the world are not teaching kids to be empowered.

I congratulate retired colonel sahib, who has converted a 50 year old building into a place better than any lal masjid, temple, gurudwara or church.

You should of course, charge him the rent, and use it to pay for more kids books and tuition. Colonel sahib can pay to fix plumbing, kids cannot afford to buy books and tuition. Also, let your daughters spend few weeks working at the school, and pursuade more Gul Rehmans. They need to be educated first. Your daughters can write great essay from their great experience for their applications to Ivy League admissions.

While there, please do not let Massaddi Mians come closer to them. Just a fatherly advice for independent daughters to have a value system.

Re: # 102
Dear hamidm2....it is not very often i am lost for words but now i am. your sense of humour is wonderful. keep entertaining and enlightening...all the best...sohail

Dear Dr. Sohail,
A good analysis in a summarized form. This is a non-conventional and controvertial (to some, not me)assessment, that reinforces your earlier psychological assessments of similar subjects.

A good read, indeed.

Najeeb Kazmi

sohail sahib,

... now that we have set tahmed straight, let us get back to te subject of 'mothering' .....

..... as on everything else, i have done extensive, if informal, research on this subject and come to the conclusion that 'mothering' and 'fathering' are the same phenomenon with a very large biological content ....... many years ago, when mrs hamidm was going through this stage of doubting my love and affection for her, she posed this question at the dinner table: "if i fell into a fast flowing and freezing cold river would you jump off a forty foot high bridge to save me?" ........ of course, my initial reaction was that she should learn to swim instead of asking such a stupid question, but discretion being the better part of valor, i replied after a little hesitation, "of course, i would" ........she didn't believe me and i myself had doubts about it as i did some quick mental math on the forty foot bridge, the temperature of water and the going rate for a new bride ......... then she asked me, "what if one of our daughters fell in, would you jump in" ..... without any hesitation i replied, " yes!" ......... i believed it and so did she ......

..... a few days later i was told this story to a close friend who was unmarried at that time, had a rather hedonistic life style and had no use for children and women with less than a c-cup ....... he said i was crazy and that all children were brats and deserved to be eaten by the jews and hindoos ...... many many years later after he was married and had a couple of kids he reminded me of the story and said, "you know, you were right - i think i would let mary jo drown but i would risk my life to save the rug rats" ....... since mary jo was his high school sweetheart and had a few miles on her, i figured she wasn't worth saving any way ........

......... what is your expert opinion ?

Re: # 99

tahmed,

... you are out of touch with reality - it is the first step towards full blown dementia ....... and i really think you should go to pakistan one of these days instead of just reading about it in the washington post .....

Re: # 97

prathaab,

..... a piece of friendly advice: if you want to get laid in this life time you better change your attitude towards women ...

Hamidm: That is all very well. While congratulating you on your generous giving (is colonel sahib by the name of ejaz, btw?), I am not sure that gul rehman with his five daughters is the financial genius you seem to think he is. This maali in rawalpindi (lets call him gulkhan) had three daughters before he was advised to end the production line if he wanted to at least give the first three a decent wedding.

So, you are not doing gul rehman any favors by applauding his financial model.

Re: # 83

Dr. Sohail, Your affinity for feminism is now explained by your affinity to the two young girls you are looking after. Fathers of girls have this natural affinity for females.

Thats my bit of psychology for you!

Re: # 76

Please do believe anyone if they tell you the feminism exists only in the west. Far from it! Thousands of males are now in jail due to biased laws in India today!

www.498a.org

OD'd-on-Ginseng-MahaHypocrite-Masadi: (no text to add).

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Re: # 78

tahmed,

.... i think you should visit pakistan one of these days and talk to (not at) the 'stupid' unwashed masses that you profess to love so much ......

.... you should go out for an early morning walk and talk to the family of five kids ranging from 6-12 picking through the trash ..... you should also stop by a roadside mechanic and have your tires rotated by a twelve year old grease monkey ..... how about stopping by a tandoor/restaurant for lunch and talking to the grimy little waiter ..... if you have the time, also talk to the ten year old girl who mops the floor while her mother does the dishes from your supper the night before ......... then, i think you should visit the ten year old carpet weaver whose tiny fingers are ideally suited for weaving double knots .... and while you are at it, how about taking a road trip to sialkot to pick up a couple of soccer balls and talking to the kids who make them .........

..... i haven't talked to shafqat, but i did tak to gul rehman who has five daughters ranging from 8-16 who work as domestic servants ..... since i am the proud landlord for a 'english medium and computerized' school i offered to pay for their tuition, books and uniforms - i figured i could get a discount from the retired army education colonel who owns the school which has over a hundred kids crammed into a fifty year old six room house ....... anyway, gul rehman who seems to be a better economist than you, set me straight with some simple math ...... according to him, his one room house in tulsa village costs him 3000 a month, his electricity bill is another 1000 and his food bill to feed seven mouths is 4000 a month (which inludes meat once a month) ..... he does not spend anyhthing on dry cleaning, dining out, clothing, movies and horse racing .......... the man is a cheapskate! ........ he has a pucca job as a mali at the ordnance depot and gets 4000 rupees a month .... after work he works as a mali at five or six houses that brings in another thousand or so ..... of course he gets yelled at for only showing up for an hour and not watering the petunias properly - he is a professional and considers that as a professional hazard ......... so where were we ?...... oh, so gul rehman tells me that he would love to send his daughters to school if i could show him how to pay his bills without the 5000 a month they bring in ...... i told him that he should eat cake instead of running after a seven rupee roti, but the man doesn't like cake ....... also his eldest was getting married in a couple of months to a cousin who made a decent living hanging from the door of a pindi-islamabad wagon all day long .....

..... since i am not very good at math and economics and all that other stuff, i gave gul rehman ten thousand rupees for the wedding and walked away with a clear concsience and also saved a hundred dollars a month .....maybe i will use the money to fix the school's leaky toilets that colonel sahib has been complaining about ...... i also avoided upsetting the social order and pissing off my siblings who would have had to look for domestic servants ....... as everyone knows, the biggest problem facing pakistan's civil society is not the cj issue, it is the shortage of good naukars .........

Massaddi Mian:

What can one do with you when reason is too logical for you. I did suggest that you please learn economics from Chabriwala of Gujranwala. This is all about economics, and not about demographics or sociology.

Please get it. "It is economy, stupid."

Labor, Capital (including profits) and markets are three pillars of economics. Whenever any of the three are oversupplied, point of diminishing returns sets in. Your intellect too has crossed the point of diminishing returns, due to oversupply of “Go F_____ yourself�.

Be a man, and stop hiding behind "Go F___ yourself" when you have no basis to argue.

There is no such law of economics that the wealth flows from children to parents. When did you invent this nonsense? Whenever you get an urge to invent such nonsense, please watch Bollywood movies instead.

For your overloaded knowledge base, wealth must be created, by individual, family, community or nation. Else there is nothing to distribute and hence nothing to flow.

Is this too difficult for you to understand?

Let me continue, in any nation-state, whenever growth in GDP exceeds the population growth, as has been the case since World War II, kids will be richer than their parents.

Now can you tell me what may happen whenever the opposite is true? If you did not get it, the wealth has indeed flown from parents to kids in those cases and will continue to be so. Mughal Empire and other Islamic Empires are examples of such reversal.

I would not tax your overloaded brain, and therefore, will not go further to explain what were the drivers of growth and reversals at different stages in different parts of the world.

This applies at an individual level also. Many kids instead of growing their inherited assets have squandered it.

You must remove your seventh century blinders to see. Only Massaddi Mians of all colors in the world cannot see it.

Somewhere, I think, Tahmed sahib mentioned that people asked their servants to stop procreating, or else look somewhere else. That family reached a point of diminishing return and could not sustain more additions for various reasons.

Your fundamentals are very weak, Massaddi Mian. Please think about the point of diminishing returns of your intellect and immediately start offloading nonsense.

Do you realize that after this point “Less is More�, as Hamidm sahib will say in his management consulting lingo?

Re: # 9
Dear Motor-City Madman Ham-Damn2,

Do you have a question that I can answer? Sorry I can't help you procreate, for that you first need to have a decent woman as a wife.

Drain the mobile oil and replace it with real blood in your veins.

Peace.

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hamid writes "...... in one of my many informal studies i have found that the more and bigger the television sets, the fewer the number of children ..... as a matter of fact, people with hi-def plasma or lcd sets larger that 50 inches and home theaters have a maximum of two children ........"

That may well be true but its a factor of income and wealth i.e. economic class and the corresponding roles assigned to children.

Tahmed writes "The UN study was too polite to put it - but the fact is that those who have more kids are stupid."

So social factors according to this nitwit be damned, it is all about personal choice yet regardless of the personal choice of millions the fertility rates remain more of less constant in increase and decrease a society over time- telling us that the structure is determining the trend and not "foolish choices"- would this slave of the West like to similarly conclude about his white masters that when the population boom occurred in Europe or when the baby boom occurred in the USA those people were just being "foolish"?

Re: # 81; btw tahmed

whatever made you think a muslim would knowingly donate his/her body for teaching purposes!?

Re: # 81;

P.S.: I take it you know the difference b/w "brain" and "mind"? may be Dr Sohail can help you understand the mind-part and its loose attachments etc...I only deal with the 'physical' in my professional capacity

Re: # 81; tahmed

you are shooting the messanger matey; talk to Eklavya if you have issues with the theory as I never claimed any ownership of it.

as far as loose screws are concerned, I leave that to people's individual judgements.

if you must know, there is nothing worse than indoctrination of children; we have ample example of the end-products right here (again individual judgements as above..)

as you would say, live long and ........

Re: # 72
dear parthaab..i do not mind you asking me personal questions. i chose not to have children for diffferent reasons. but i enjoy the role of parenting in two different ways. my sweetheart bette davis who has also been my best friend for thirty years had adopted a girl adriana in 1990 from romania when adriana was only 3 weeks old. so i enjoy the role of fathering indirectly. i also enjoy the role of uncle as my sister's children are like my own. these days my neice wardah is living with me in canada while my sister is in pakistan. that is why i feel that the role of mothering and parenting is not only restricted to biological parents. in my childhood also i recieved a lot of nurturing from my aunts, uncles and grandparents. sincerely sohail

Re: # 63
dear charlie...please write to me on
welcome@drsohail.com
and we can arrange a get together one evening....
sincerely sohail

akcheema #79 As a doctor, when you performed dissections of the human brain in college, did you notice that muslim minds were missing a few screws? if not, then perhaps you need to drop your theory about the "muslim mind". Also, unless you noticed in the course of your dissections that muslim brains have built-in intenna for wireless communication among the ummah, I suggest you consider reviewing your conclusions concerning a "vast muslim conspiracy to rule the world through numbers".

The truth is simple my friend. Alladin needs to be told to use his head (i.e. to think, I hasten to add), not just his reproductive organs, when proceeding to his next close encounter with his missus.

Re: # 64
Dear teshah...thanks for appreciating the article. i am glad you see the progress....smiles...we live and learn and grow...sohail

Re: # 78; tahmed

your argument is correct but only up to a point. Like everything else in life (Kaal would love this!), muslims are exempt from this 'poverty driven' drive.

Amongst the Pakistani/Bangladeshis in the UK for example, the families are large. The reason being easy access to welfare, hence "allah day raha hai bhai" attitude. I asked a father of nine the reason why allah chose different criteria for the delivery of "rizk" in different parts of the world and I was met with some suspicious looks; call me a coward but I don't just want to die for nothing!

Also, there is this really conscious push amongst the faithful to produce as many "ummatees" as possible to increase the number of faithful in the greater scheme of things.

The psychology, however, is far too complex to be described in easy human terms. Factors vary between Pakistan and those in the west. I suppose I should believe Kaal when he confidently tells me time and again that "the muslim mind" is fundamentally different to the rest of humanity; the man does have a point!

hamidm #59 i first heard your argument (i.e. that the poor have more kids because it is a question of survival) from our madam in 1970 in our Demography class in MA economics at Panjab University. Our madam would spend the entire lecture hour doing a heads-down reading from her notes, and we would sit and admire madam. Madam's notes were from a 20 year old UN publication.

In short, what you told me I heard over a half-century ago. And only now do I realize that it is wrong. The UN study was too polite to put it - but the fact is that those who have more kids are stupid.

Shafqat (to use an assumed name for this servant guy I mentioned who had four kids in four years of marriage before being told to cease further production or else look elsewhere for free lodging) simply felt that he was not responsible for kids because they are "Allah di daen ai". Nor are kids cost free.

So - dont ever give me this conventional bs again!!

Re: # 76; CORRECTION:
majority by far are with the female side at a great advantage

should read .......at a great dis-advantage.....

Re: # 73; Parthaab Sahib

You are absolutely right in what you wrote and I am sure would make a good topic for discussion. From my point of view, there has to be a balance in these 'rights and responsibilities'; unfortunately the balance can be swung in the other direction easily and the consequences disastrous for those concerned.

Speaking for myself, I am not a feminist or any other 'ist', if it helps. I only speak in terms of the injustices that I see within my own 'known' sphere and majority by far are with the female side at a great advantage. Surely this is not the case in the west to the same extent. Problem is when one 'politicises' a cause, sometimes it takes an equivalent reaction to bring a 'balance' back in the equation.

Being of medical background, at least in the west, the healthcare of women often gets far more publicity (hence funds and political backing) than men's (compare the well-publicised Breast Cancer issue vs Prostate Cancer, for example; currently at least the same number if not more men die of the disease). Somehow we are not considered 'sexy' enough to be on the front page as it were!

I think the issues are fundamentally different though; we can't justify injustices to our female counterparts in the East based on the 'excesses' committed (actual or perceived) in the opposite direction in the West; the two would have to be looked at separately.

Re: # 68

mad masadi,

....as a howard trained sociopath are you telling me that there is no corelation between television and the mumber of children you have ?......... i beg to differ ...... in one of my many informal studies i have found that the more and bigger the television sets, the fewer the number of children ..... as a matter of fact, people with hi-def plasma or lcd sets larger that 50 inches and home theaters have a maximum of two children .......... i hven't done a study on blu-ray yet, but i am sure it will also have a significant impact on the fertility rate ......

..... and please don't tell me that the us elite is impregnating our women and then killing every 66 out of 1000 babies to put pakistan at the bottom of the infant mortality charts ........ but then you turn around and tell me that they also put birth control stuff in the polio vaccine sto terlize our people ....... make up your mind - are they responsible for our pregnancies or are they trying to kill us off .....

73, Partha,

Did u know that socialist Zapataro of Spain got more women than men in his cabinet?

There are many 'male feminists' who think that theirs is the duty to defend extremist feminism. This, however, is unfortunate. Males have always been known for their pampering of females. Witness our very own Taj Mahal. There are, in fact, males who are actually feminists full time, thinking they are morally superior since it is their job to protect the 'weaker' of the species.

In America, men are forced to pay around 40% of their income to ex-wives, regardless of wrongdoing on the woman's parts (often called "no-fault" alimony). She could commit adultery and beat her husband or kids, and none of it will influence the court's decision.

More shockingly still, a woman can simply accuse her husband of sexual or physical abuse (or simply express a fear of it) and instantly win a restraining order forcing him away from his home and children, without so much as a hearing. In fact, most divorce lawyers will advise a woman to do this, and those who do not can be sued for legal malpractice.

And once she has the kids, the family court will be loath to enforce visitation rights for the father.

More than 50% of all marriages in the U.S. result in divorce -- men's rights are being increasingly overlooked to the benefit of women. Consider this: statistically, the first person to file for divorce usually wins. While 70% of all divorces are initiated by women, 85 to 90% of custody awards go to the women.

While hard-core feminism has grown by leaps and bounds, 'masculinism' is pretty much unheard off. Feminist magazines, gyms, even buses! To understand why Feminism has developed 'naturally' while 'Masculinism' has not, one needs to understand early society. While the females grouped with other females and cooked and looked after the kids together, the men went out to hunt, competing for food, and learning to mistrust other males.

Why is it women are more eager to break out of the marriage? Is it because of the opportunity it gives her to repair her 'ego'? Or the ample opportunities for 'maintainence' and the usage of law to break her spouse financially? Or simply because in our society, the male does the competitive courting and all she has to do is to lie back and wait for the next idiot to come along?

Dr. Sohail, If I may get personal, do you have sons - or daughters?

More and more divorces are being caused by high sexual drive by the female these days. Makes you wonder what maintainence is for!

www.womensinfidelity.com

www.womensinfidelity.com

www.498a.org

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Re: # 66

And there are many in India who hate these schemes and slam as populist measures, making people beggars etc...

I would want to know your thoughts on this...

Hamidm,

" that is why i think the government should provide a 40 inch plasma tv to every member of the unwashed and uncivil society ......... "

You can make an excellent career in politics if you decide to move over to India. You know Tamilnadu government is distributing free color TVs for people below the poverty line.

Congress party, in Karnataka, has promised free colour TVs if they are voted to power.

Are you working for the same consultants who work for the Tamilnadu government...So TV has another function too...an effective contraceptive...

Charlie, I know u well but I didnt read btwn the lines :(

Sohail

A good and balanced article unlike the previous one's by the writer. He seems to be maturing from the bookish to the real world.

In fact in the west the mothering role has also been taken up to some extent by the state wheras in the east, being a mother,is still a staus of honor and support for a woman. Our mothers' greatest threat to their sons is still the warning that they deliver to their wayward sons that they would not
forgive them '32 strains of milk' (Woh unko 32 dhaarein nahein bakhshein gi).

Re: # 60 VRV, My post supposed to be a compliment to Indian achievements.... even without right tools... Don't take it to heart.. :)

Dr Sahib, I live in Thornhill, north of Toronto... Let's have lunch/dinner... Tahmed chacha also lives in Toronto... We might also invite him...

Re: # 59

Hamidm Sahib:

".... one of the main reasons poor people have more children is because for them it is a matter of survival ....."

Do you think Massaddi Mians of the world taught them the economics of getting of poverty? They must learn capitalism from that Charbriwala in Gujranwala. That chabriwala knows how much can be sold and how many mouths can be fed. Labor no doubt is one factor in economic equation, but religion can certainly not be the second factor. Unless Massaddi Mians use it as opium for the masses.

Massaddi Mians do not Ph.D.s from U.S. of A.. A chabri and fruits are all that are needed. For that matter Lal Masjids can be there, what is taught there is more important.

Don't you think?

snake gourd i/o snakeguard

#57 Posted by Charlie on April 15, 2008 9:53:31 am

I dont know how large & lengthy is urs........but IF it's so then Pakistan shud have become a superpower by now.

I give u an idea to elongate ur willy.

Tie a stone with dori and tie it to ur willy so that it wud grow in length and be elongated like a snakeguard (it's how snakeguards are elongated). Ur willy thus wud look like a third leg & that wud make ur country a superpower.

Re: # 55

tahmed mian,

.... one of the main reasons poor people have more children is because for them it is a matter of survival ..... for them a child is another pair of hands that can be put to work by the time he or she turns seven or eight and earn 1000 rupees a month as a domestic servant (plus roti and kapra) ......... or a kid can make 50-100 rupees a day if they becomes a scavenger picking up paper, rags and metal from garbage dumps - and if they are lucky they can also salvage a half eaten apple or mango thrown out by civil society ...... most day laborers still make less than 150 a day (if they can find work) which does not bring in enough to rent even one kutcha room in a pindi slum ...... in order to afford a roof over their heads and two meals a day, you have to have at least four or five people working ten hours a day ........ on top of that, when a man goes home after a hard day of digging ditches or carrying concrete or bricks up three storeys and there is no tv, his only entertainment is sex ....... that is why i think the government should provide a 40 inch plasma tv to every member of the unwashed and uncivil society .........

Re: # 57
dear charlie..if you live in toronto then we can meet...i live and work 30 kilometers east in a small town of whitby...sincerely sohail

Because of over-reproduction, even with mediocre education and less than normal penis sizes, India and China are going to become recognized global powers.

On the other hand, "quantity vs. quality" oriented westereners have already starting losing their influence because they want to succeed individually by stop reproducing. Because of that westerners have to import "lower quality overly-produced" immigrants who will ultimately cause goras to become visible minorities in near future.

Look at Toronto, I have been here for ages and I have yet to see a single gora.... :)

Re: # 55
i agree with a lot of what you said, but the pendulam has swong the other way in the west some women are choosing not to have children at all.

#54 Aslam bhai: actually it is not just western women - even in Pakistan women who are better educated have fewer children than jahil women. I know of people in Pakistan who literally told their domestic servants to stop producing kids every year, and only then did the stop producing. One man had produced 8 kids in 10 years of marriage before being told to stop of look elsewhere for a job and living space for his extended family. Another produced 4 in 4 years of marriage until being told to decide between more kids and his free accomodations.

Nor is it poor women who are the problem - it is the men. My brother worked a bit in Pakistani hospitals after graduation and used to tell me how women from poor families would come by secretly from their husbands asking for ways to stop the bastards from pushing more kids into her.

Bengalis used to be notorious in the 1960's for their high fertility rates - and yet, once women were empowered and educated due to microcredit, there was a sharp drip in fertility rates so it became lower than that of Pakistan.

So, I hope immigrants to UK would do themselves and the world a favor by picking up the good habits of europeans and ending the crap that they escaped from in the first place.

It seems quite a lot of western women have turned their back on mothering in favour of careers and sex and the city lifestyle, the consequence of which are declining populations which leads to immigration, which in turn leads to social tensions and xenophobia, islamophobia.

#52 g'nite, Comrade Masadi. Make sure to finish your milk before going to sleep. And make sure the milk is direct from Comrade Cows, not mixed with Ginseng by the Evil Elite...

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#48 masadi: i thought you had said "g'nite" hours ago!! cant sleep?? must be another side affect of the Ginseng that the Evil Elite added to your formula mil,

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If only Masadi had been nursed the natural way, the Evil Elite would not have had the opportunity to add Ginseng in baby Masadi's milk bottle!! Now poor Masadi is perpetually angry after OD'ing on Ginseng-spiked Evil Elite Milk. :-(

Re: # 43

Hamidm Sahib,

Is it incumbent on us to relieve women from 'mothering' chores? Its quite confusing...Perhaps Cheema ji has an explanation to offer...

I love carrying my child when she is fast asleep, for that a few times her nap is disturbed but I cant help doing that. I hope its not a psychologically bad thing as I want to feel her presence around!

Nice articles, specially catering western society, several theories can be made on humanism of motherhood!

Re: # 42

cheema sahib,

..... with all this hoopla over mother's milk, i am starting a wet-nurse business ..... for a hundred dollars a day we will send over a wet-nurse to feed your child three times a day ........ however, we must warn you that there are certain risks involved .... if the child grows up with delusions of grandeur and declares himself to be a prophet, we are not liable ......

Re: # 41

P.S.: the study I quoted, the ethnic minority mothers would continue to breast feed for longer overall (including the African group with others), but the rates of initiation and total duration of feeding was the same in white and Pakistani women. So perhaps no significant difference overall; thought it was important to clarify that.

Re: # 40; hamidm sahib

LoL!!one is always guaranteed a laugh I must say; all praise be to the moon god for making us a happy bunch.

Formalities out of the way, braest feeding is good for bonding; all the ingredients, however, are easily reproduced in labs. It would be fair to say that in a clean and hygienic environment, bottle/breast are quite interchangeable. However, I like to be more 'objective' as you know. In my own study of the demographics of breast feeding in the North of England, I discovered that a baby born to a white mother was far more likely to be breast fed than one born to an asian (generic term in England for Indo-Paki-Bangla) mother! This subsequently bore out in the larger nation-wide study published in the BMJ (British Medical Journal). I'd be happy to dig out references if needed.

I am not sure peons/elite of either the East or the West were necessarily involved but people ARE entitled to their opinions nevertheless.

I also agree with you on the 'apparent appeal/prestige to be had' of domestic duties. Just like I have challenged the 'jihadis' to try doing their 'dirty work' themselves, same applies to men who feel for the "loss" of maternalism for women not wanting to do mundane chores for the confort of their "families", by which they invarably mean "the males of the families".

Being the eldest son in my own family, growing up I was acutely aware of my parents (esp my mum!) trying to order my sister around to pamper me (being the male). My intervention, rather than being regarded as a positive change, was seen with great suspicion, put down to my lack of religious belief and labelled as "the evil of western thought"! (perhaps they hadn't heard of the Elite!!).

anil mian,

.... all this bs about the joys of 'mothering' is a conspiracy by men to keep women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen while they go out to save the world over eighteen holes of golf or gup shup over a cup of tea with their testicular mates .......... next thing you know somone will be writing an article on the joy of mopping the floor and doing laundry !......... trust me, i have done this stuff and there is nothing enjoyable about these tasks - that is why god invented domestic servants and mexicans ....

Re: # 29

nasadi,

........ you fool! ... this is why you were not able to get your H-1B ....... if mother's milk is that great then how come infant mortality is ten twenty times higher in the underdeveloped and developing world ? ...... both my grandmothers lost two babies before their first birthday and it was considered the norm in the 'good old days' of mother's milk ....... and i am not sure that the good 'enzymes' that you are talking about can be duplicated in formula - maybe cheema sahib can shed some light on it ...... however, i know for a fact that my daughters are healthier and have a higher iq than both me and their mother, who were both raised on mother's milk .... and the younger one didn't have to suffer from chicken pox either because the us elite had invented a vaccine before she was born ..........

........ no mumps, no chicken pox, no polio, no rubella, no measels, no whooping cough - they did not have to suffer any of these ailments that have turned you into the pathetic fool that you are today .........

Re: # 37[My simple response to you is : go F yourself...]


masadi saab, can you teach me how to do that saab. that way i can be self sufficient like you saab and dont have to look to the 'west' saab

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Dr Sahib,

I really didn't understand the purpose of this article; may be I am a tad slow?

Unfortunately we have this very male oriented mindset to analyse such issues and try as we may, it is hard to get away from this. I don't recall hearing about a crisis drop in the growth rate of human population; quite the reverse as a matter of fact. There are more people alive now than ever lived on this planet in human history. Surely no woman should be made to feel guilty in not wanting to have children or being your 'typical mother'; whatever that might mean anyway!

People are living longer than they ever did before. Children tend to survive (as opposed to in the past; advances in medical science etc) and families would inevitably become smaller as a result. Even within the third world country like Pakistan (with 'unacceptably' high infant mortality rates) the population has more than quadrupled in the last 50 years; surely some women NOT performing their 'natural' duties would, if anything, be a welcome change. There is just so much more to life than there ever was before.

As the male members of society, we are very keen to 'enjoy' the fruits of what modern civilisation has to offer; if a woman wants to do the same, we call upon 'nature' and its 'requirements' to use the 'guilt trip' psychology to get our way; a bit unfair don't you think?

As far as 'calls of nature' are concerned (Ref: the concept of the 'milk/breast response' mentioned by someone), exactly how 'natural' are our lives today? We get up in the morning (alarm clock..?natural), daily routines (shower/shave etc ?natural), breakfast, get in the car (?natural), go to work (?natural), come home and go to the fridge for food (?natural) day in day out; I leave the rest to everyone's imagination.

Surely 'nature' would want us to live 'naturally', with the 'tribe' hunting/gathering for sustenance day in day out, living stark naked and procreating all over the place as 'nature' intended; more than 2/3 of our 'brood' would die of 'natural' causes and our lives would be altered all the time due to 'natural' disasters; all in all there would be about a few hundred thousand of us running around in our 'natural' attire rather the over six billion!

And hamidm sahib, men DO have breast tissue and it DOES respond to the same hormones the female ones do to!! Well done for being 'man-enough' to share your 'domesticated' side with us; I would proudly own up to silimar 'domesticated' practices of my own in recent history!

Actually I don't see the world, now, as a good place for anybody's young ones to live. In a way it is better not to reproduce. Strange are the ways of mother nature, she could have unleashed earth quakes, volcanos or cyclones to curtail the human population. How intelligent, she has induced the female human beings to not to reproduce and made sure the rest of the living things aren't affected...Perhaps this time the focus is entirely on human population :)...

Masadi, why did you not post on chowk that you had returned to Pakistan? If you did, and I missed it, my apologies. Do you notice any changes in all these years?

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Re: # 25

Hamid sahib:

"...whatever it is that produces milk, doesn't mean that men cannot perform this simple task ..... "

Where does the milk come from, please include cows also while thinking?

Had the nature left it entirely onto males of species, those species probably have died altogether. We may not have lived long enough to invent diapers and milk bottles to make it easy for Hamidm sahib.

Re: # 25

Hamidm sahib:

I may not have done more milk and diaper duty, I might be ready to make up with grand kids. Welling up of mothers' breasts when their babies cry, I think, is a well studied phenomenon. It does not happen when others babies cry.

"Mothering" is different than motherhood. Men also have this primal instinct. You just made my case.

Hamidm sahib, you are among fast shooters. You indeed shoot faster and certainly before you complete your thinking. Are you sure, your daughters have not set you up right yet? You may not like to come out of the closest, because Massaddi Mian hovers around here, but really, Hamidm sahib.

Mothering as I see, is reflexive act. It is selfless care, protection, nuture and providing. My point to Khalid sahib is that it is present in males also.

Mother Teresa was mothering not parenting, Pope did the neither. While at it, can you think of reasons, why tigers have the least of mothering among all species? Interestingly tigress also tends to be the most protective of her tiger. Can two be related? I mean when male is over pampered or made to feel more important, mothering instinct gives way.

Re: # 21

anil mian,

"However, when a baby cries mother's breasts fill up with milk, tells me that men and women probably have different responses."

..... now that was a sexist remark if i ever heard one ! ..... just because man-breasts do not have the milk glands or whatever it is that produces milk, doesn't mean that men cannot perform this simple task ..... i have prepared more milk bottles than mrs hamidm and - not that i am counting - i have changed more diapers than her too ..... and i am man enough to admit that i enjoyed it ! ..... as a matter of fact discussing the baby's bowel movements was a lot more intellectually stimulating than any discussion i have had here with masadi ........

.... anil mian, that was a very condescending remark and i did not expect it from you - you should be ashamed of yourself ! ..... if i ever said such a stupid thing in front of the three women in my life, i would be spending the night with the dog .....

..... and why is it that we men are discussing motherhood when we don't have a uterus ..... is it because women are out there doing more important things ?

Re: # 21
dear anil...you are just being modest. your comments are very insightful. i agree with you that many behaviours are instinctual. the mystery is that i am meeting many women in my personal and professional lives who seem to lack that instinct while there are more men who are showing it. that makes me wonder whether our cultures are having a serious impact on our instinctual behaviour. just a thought.
enjoyed the dialogue with you...sincerely sohail

Re: # 22
dear hamidm2...i think you misunderstood me. i am notquestioning the intention of parents. they mean well. they are trying to do the best for their children. but what they think is best for the children might not be the best. parents are also role models and play a big role unconsciously. when mother is depressed and unhappy herself or father does not take of himself how can a child learn to be happy or learn to take care . i think you and i are on the same page. we are just using different ways to express the same thing....to help children the best they can be in expressing their potential. sincerely sohail
ps...i liked the passion in your response

dr sohail,

"i agree with you though that parents try to make their children like themselves and curb their creativity. enjoyed your feedback"

.......... i diagree vehemently ! ....... i think that most parents would like to make their children what they are not unless they happen to be a mullah or a fool ........ i hope to god that my two daughters don't grow up to me like me or their mother - they can do a whole lot better! ...... besides, as mrs hamidm says they are too smart to be engineers or doctors - any head wagging madrasi can do that .... i want them to grow up to be investment bankers or lawyers or professional golfers ! .... what is more important is that they should be happy

Re: # 20

Khaid sahib:

I probably lack the professional basis to answer your questions. What I wrote or write is how I feel. Therefore, your comments on it may be more valuable than mine.

However, when a baby cries mother's breasts fill up with milk, tells me that men and women probably have different responses. Both father and mother respond to their baby's cries differently than other cries. Babies too know their mother or father's touch. Eye contacts, smiles, and cries that babies bring out lead me to believe that this connection is more than acquired. This has to be very primal, as I have seen it among birds, chimpanzees, dogs etc. In documentaries I have seen it with tigress more than tigers, hence again some male female thing I suppose. Mothering is beyond humans, and hence has to be primal is my reason.

I think culture plays a very little part in mothering. Instead, what parents and siblings do in the family probably influences more. There is no doubt that parents are influenced by the cultural surroundings and religious beliefs and adopt certain parenting style. Therefore, cultural and religious influence is secondary and can influence parenting, but not mothering.

What do you think, Khalid sahib?

Re: # 19
dear anil...thank you for your detailed comments. can you clarify
how do you think men and women have similar or different paternal instincts?
how do you think culture influences parents in their parental responsibilities. thanks sohail

Khalid sahib:

Mothering is one of the primal instincts in living beings.

Family, home, social, cultural, and other influences come later. Most of us are probably born with this primal instinct, or acquire it when as baby we were nurtured by our mother. Above later influences act to separate each of us from our primal instinct. This starts when we are taught to grow as a boy or a girl. Or when we become aware of our sexuality, becuase society has rules for expressing sexuality. As a result "roles" evolve, very few break out from these moulds, and we continue to grow. Many do breakoout for whatever reasons, come out to be wonderful father and even a single parent.

This is a view looking inside-out at mothering from an individual's. Looking outside-in at mothering from society to individual is incorrect. This gives a distorted view of roles and reponsibilities, and you end up defining "mothering" in terms constructs which all came after the fact. Irrespective of the fact whether the outcome of mothering is Massaddi Mian or Hamidm Mian.

Role of an individual is the only role in mothering, others can at best play support role.

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Re: # 16
dear charlie...you have interesting points of view. mother nature is sometimes kind and sometimes cruel. if we leave it to mother nature we would not be treating patients for their physical or mental illnesses. we may not even be using contraception. mother nature has it wrong when a 12 years old girl can become pregnant as she cannot look after the baby.
i agree with you though that parents try to make their children like themselves and curb their creativity. enjoyed your feedback...all the best...sohail

#13 Dr Sahib,

Being a believer in Darwin's theory, shouldn't we allow the process of evolution take place as randomly as it has been taking place for several billion years. Trying to enforce our definition of "the fittest" (which can be different from mother nature's definition) and discouraging rest of them to reproduce might not help too much.

Or taking the matter from another angle, many great people born in history of mankind didn't have the privilege to enjoy parent's love and care. But hostile social conditions made them great men. Without any support by parents, they learnt to face the world themselves in their own unique ways using their own creative personalities.

On the other hand, parents teach their kids to be like themselves resulting in mediocre, sissy, middle class engineers and doctors.

dr. Sohail, I have seen it all..kids who had a mommy to stay at home with them who ended up being misfit chuckleheads to those who were raised by their nannies and day care agencies for most of the day and turned out to be fantastic kids. I have heard tales of stay at homes and workign moms complain about the grass being greener on the other side. I frankly admire those working moms who try to do it all, whether it is ambition, whether economic freedom...whether it is trying to make ends meet...whatever the case, they do not love hteir children any less.

Interestingly enough, the most misogynistic thing I evdr saw what when mothers of pakistani descent insisted on sending their teenager daughters back to pakistan...but keep theri sons here in the west. those girls that finished highschool, we co-opted to go back to get marriage regardless of what they got on their SAT's and their wishes to study further. these were all stay at home moms.

dr shohail,

.... 'mothering' is not a one-woman job as it used to be and still is in our primitive neck of the woods - it also takes a father to do the job correctly ..... you cannot just come in at the end of the day, pick up the kid for a few minutes, throw him up in the air, drop him on his head, hand it back to the mother and then expect the child to grow up as a normal person ...... that is why most desis are so screwed up - they never had real fathers ..... most of them 'love' their mothers but barely know their fathers .... maybe that is why they fly planes into tall buildings and do other nasty things - they are trying to get their father's attention ......... mind you, this is just a layman's theory without any scientific evidence ......

..... and there is nothing 'rewarding' about changing diapers, breast feeding and running around after brats all day long - it is menial and hard work which most people outsource to ayahs and nannies if they can afford it .... but there is a danger when you hire somone to do this job - just look at all those prophets who were sent away to be raised by a wet nurse ....

Re: # 11
dear kulharee...i like your mischeivious sense of humour. i fully agree with you that biological mothers and fathers need to take responsibility. but i also feel that we need to protect children from those biological parents who are incapable of parenting and are either neglectful or abusive. having a child is because of the hormones but raising them needs a full time commitment and many are not as responsible and caring as you are. we need to see the issue from the point of view of the whole community and culture. if we had more parents like you we may noot need many social and child care organizations but the sad reality is that many young men and women are having children who are biologically adults but emotionally children....all the best...sohail

dear charlie...thank you for your generous comments. i fully agree with you that each person has to make a choice between his/her personal dreams and cultural expectations. don't you think that human nature is significantly different than animal nature. in animals instincts are dominant but in humans conscious choices might ignore instinctual behaviour as we all give our unique meanings to our personal, family and social lives..i am as unsure as you are how our choices will determine the future of the species..sincerely sohail

Hamid Saab, you make a good point, but it is also equally important for people to have a reason (or see one) to count their blessings. So yes, you have a good point.

Masadi Sahib, I wouldn’t shut up even if you paid me to do so. The question is, can you afford it.

Dr Sohail Sahib, as always a good and educational write-up from you. You argue that everyone should try to fill the void resulted by neglect or poor mothering. Wouldn’t such an approach absolve the perps? Society does do its part as it is. I would say that biological parents should monetarily, emotionally, and psychologically be held responsible for bringing up the child, even it means by decree. If they were eager enough to make a child, they better provide nurturing as well. Uninvolved parents should be put in jails and made to work to pay for the well being of the child. There is no sight sadder than seeing a neglected child. At the time of the popping out (just when the head is out) both mother (and father, if present) should be made to sign a commitment letter, else the Obstetrician should threaten to push the child back in. Only kiddin, but pre-natal care should include a major dose of parenting lessons. For single mothers, welfare orgs should step in. In the whole design, getting pregnant or giving birth is perhaps the easiest chore, raising children the hardest. I was present at the birth of my first child, and I was amazed by the whole experience. I honestly believed that a woman giving birth had more power than a locomotive (I still do), and now that we are raising two teenagers, that part in retrospect appears not any more testing than being a good parent.

Dr Sahib, Great article. I really appreciate your uniform tone void of any emotions and personal opinions about socially wrong/right to do things.

As far as the issue of changing psychology of mothers is concerned, I think that nature in animal kingdom doesn't change in a few generation or even a few hundred years. However a society, based on its basic principles , results in enforcing its ideals on individual personalities. In the individualistic society of west, concept of team work (as a member of a family) has become a secondary thing. Individual success is considered being as much independent as possible. And success as a family has lost its meaning. This is obviously against the nature of animal kingdom where male is chosen based on its ability to defend/support his family while female is considered to be controlling the family internally, taking care of her children.

Modern woman , to avoid being considered weak and dependent on her husband (which she is wrongfully considered if she controls the family internally while giving control of external responsibilities to male) has to cosmetically appear like being independent and strong. As a result, natural behaviors are overcome by cultural pressures. I am not sure though if these tendencies against nature have any harms for the society in long run.

.... motherhood (and fatherhood) is a great thing but it can be very disappointing if you end up rearing fools like masadi and tahir mian ..... these two make a very good case for not having children .........

Dear nb...your thought is very precious. Becoming parents for centuries was more instinctual than a conscious choice made after a lot of soul searching. i agree with you that as women have more choices and different ways to make their lives meaningful, mothering may not be the top priority. Do you see any significant difference in the attitudes of Eastern as compared to Western women in relation to mothering? sincerely sohail

Dr Sohail, not everyone is equipped for parenting; however, throughout history, everyone has done it. There are still too many children being born to parents, including mothers, who do not have the emotional capacity to rear goldfish.
A thought I had while reading your article, is that in many societies, the only achievement a woman has which is recognised by others is being a mother. When women can achieve personal fulfilment and social recognition in other ways, motherhood ceases to have the same importance it did earlier.

Re: # 4

Blame the steroids in the food-chain for the strange behaviour!

Although the damage is done, do return to the Motherland Dr. sahib, before it is too late.

Your distant well-wisher.

PS: I admit that here grown men solve their own family problems very well, so you may not be able to achieve your psycho 'practise' target.

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Dr. Saab,

Masadi's acerbic post has truth in it. You have tried to be a dispassionate observer/reporter, but what you have highlighted is the sad state of affairs of the westerners. They have lost their priorities.

May be you should try to find out why the women, I believe it constitutes of westerners at this point of time, find motherhood less gratifying.

Is it going to be a 'Matrix' like situation?

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