The Psychology of Mothering

Owning up to transgression never amounts to hypocrisy, transgressing while claiming otherwise does. I am the furthest from hypocrisy a person can get, even when avoiding it involves exposing myself to ridicule and reveals lack of piety...

In #285 read "If I were to say I do such and so because my religion says so I would be a hypocrite" as

If I were to say I do such and so because my religion says so I would be a liar

Charlie writes "Now tell me who is hypocrite? :) "

It is good to note that you have learned how to read a dictionary dimwit, that is a major achievement for you. Only a "hypocrite" would proclaim that what he or she does is in perfect accord with the "ideal type" presented in his or her religion or culture. People strive towards yet never attain the ideal type. If I were to say I do such and so because my religion says so I would be a hypocrite. Transgressions and variations where one professes them (and does not profess having them when he does not) is no hypocrisy, it is sincerity....and while you're at it learn the english language and its usage as well....fool

Re: # 283 I do what I do, sometimes it goes against my relgion and my culture fool..............

Masadi! Here is the definition of Hypocrisy: "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess."


Now tell me who is hypocrite? :)

Charlie writes " hope your religion and culture teaches its follwers the importance of manners and the guidelines to interact with other people..."

It teaches me first and foremost that hypocrisy is worse than apostasy, and the kind of hypocrisy that Sohail and his masters, the US decision makers practice, stabbing you in the back while smiling at your face, is the kind of hypocrisy tolerating which with good manners, would be hypocrisy itself. Interacting with people that deride their own heritage and people in a most hypocritical way while promoting the bs propaganda of the white man, as if its some kind of evolution to a higher plane is something I can never be polite towards. And you apparently lack the b@lls to directly confront me so you see avenues of trying to deride my "religion and culture". I do what I do, sometimes it goes against my relgion and my culture fool..............

Dear Masadi,

I hope your religion and culture teaches its follwers the importance of manners and the guidelines to interact with other people.

Best Regards,
Charlie

and he thought he would discredit me in front of the people by his plastic politeness............wrong!.........

Sohail I cannot respect someone who disrespects his entire heritage and sells his soul for a few $$ to the white man, overlooking his evil that is a billion times greater than the things he criticizes about back home. Respect yourself and your people first before you ask me to respect you...and give up this plastic hypocrisy........

dear massadi...you are an intelligent and a well read man. you are very insightful about many aspects of life. i respect you and have never written anything negative about you. i think many people will learn a lot more from you if we manintained a mutually respectful attitude in our dialogues. if you are ever in toronto you are more than welcome for a cup of tea...all the best....sincerely sohail

Re: # 276
dear nature lover.... i have not been to pakistan after 2000. i grew up in kohat and peshawar but my sister lives in lahore now. if i ever go to pakistan i would love to meet you. tell me more about yourself...sohail

Remove this bs article and the dog ugly mugshot of this shrink from the front page, it is being kept there for longer than usual and makes me sick everytime my gaze goes towards it.....

Dear Dr Sohail,

I am glad that your meeting with Charlie was useful.

I would like to invite you to Pakistan in near future, and we may refresh our memories of Kohat , Peshawar etc..

Will that be OK for you..??

Regards,

Re: # 274

Peaceful for Dr Sohail and full of novel ideas for me. :)

Re: # 265
dear nature lover. just to reassure you that i had a wonderful meeting with charlie. it was quite peaceful.
sincerely sohail

Masadi,

due to your constant whining, we have decided to support your application for an American visa.

We promise to facilitate your rehabilitation and subsequent release back into the wild.

Take care and don't bite anyone as it may be contagious.

The US Elite

Re: # 256

sattar2

You are great. Thank you for the elaborative response. I wonder why even the Mullah are becoming feminists in the pakiland and insisting on equality and empoverment of the female gender.

Re: # 270

mr boob boon boom saab

are you saying musalmans are snakes saab

i am a kalma go musalman saab and very offended saab

http://www.chowk.com/viewg/2433

A friendly advice
To the Murtid Mice

Thank you Izza

A friendly advice
To the Murtid Mice

echo mian, your concern for this shrink is very moving and your politeness even more so. He should spend the rest of his life thanking you for the time you took to wake his miserable a$$ up but he wont the ingrate that he is. Therefore I have lost patience with these people and make comments that show them the ugliness of what their souls have become, I know that decent people are offended by my comments but they are meant only for these morons, so don't take offense.

Now, please tap into the hologram and pull for us the last diary entries of tahmed and hamid, HumpedDumped2 and his Chiuhuaha R2D(t)32.

Nature-Lover

Your "Honey, I have shrunk the shrink" is superbly hilarious.

Here is the self-analysis of the Shrrivelled shrink...the last entry into his diary.
........................................................
Last Entry:
In the diary of the Psycho from chukk:420, mauza Harrapa
===========================================================
My own private Fridaho

epilogue


.....and now I can sense that they are mumbling & whispering about removing the life-support system from me. It is not that I am in coma all the time, it is just that they cannot tell that, and I do not tell them. I observe, I listen, but I cannot respond...but only for sporadic minutes when no one is around. The prescriptions & proscriptions of the west & east did me in!

It`ll be anyday, anytime,

sooner than later.

.........ahh!and memories! , in a rewind loop, now in focus, now in a blurr & blob from the deep deep recesses of my mind, never ever abandon me, never let go. It sure helps to be a shrink to interpret and bring into focus these repressed memories....

...the joyful days and nights when I was called Fridaho by everyone. Snot, rat-tail-like, peeking in and out of my dust laden & dirt ridden nostrils and occasionally wiped-ff by my left sleeve while looking askance at every passing elder who would shove-kick-slap-hit me--just for the heck of it . At least they recognised me that I existed. I belonged! Here in US nobody gives a damn no matter how hard you try to prove that now you are one of them.So Frida-ho it was, sometimes Freeda-ho, sometimes Freeday-ho but none seemed different. The landowners around Harrapa were too preoccupied & disinterested to worry about my heritage or what I truly aspired to be. I was simply a body, a serf, a kummee`s son, destined to be a kummee himself when old enough to plow their fields.

But I had ambitions. Secret designs of my own. Intrepid & Intrigue was important to overcome the caste, and the color barrier. I wanted to be like the Jat jagirdars son.., with the plastic clip-on tie & back-pack,..whose forefathers helped the british to rule over us. ``Salvation is in slavery``! this became my banner & beacon....to enable me to cross over to the other side & someday have my own private slaves.

`` I must redesign my heritage`` I heard myself say to myself aloud oneday. It must be sculpted by me to suit the occasion or event. I decided to interrupt others and correcte them that my name was Fareed. Everyone should take notice, I told them. I am Fareed--not Freeda-ho. They all did, and shoved-kicked-slapped and ran me out of the chukk # 440 near to the mound-ruins where heritage is preserved. Preserved so well that it generates ample reveues for its progeny even after laying dormant for about 5000 years. The goraas discovered the mounds of the dead and educated the slaves; drilled into them how civilised they once were and how the slaves were once 5000-year civilised & now in the darkages due to their stupid reli.. (well-never mind)

...good that they hounded me out of the Chukk 420 near mauza Harrapa. In the city I became the real me, Fareed! and now diligently pursued the practised the Jaw-resetting language to such perfection that that I was soon inducted into that inner-sanctum of those who prided themselves to announce themselves as The-Tongued-Ones: (ahle-zubaan)

Years passed and then I discovered that even this heritage is now under suspicion and is no longer respectable. The-Tongued-ones are being harrassed by those who are now refusing the get their jaws reset. So I decided to look for opportunities to create another new heritage for my nation`s posterior and my own posterity

I decided to emigrate to the fantasy-land of sex,drugs & faith-freedom
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and opportunity!

Here I learned that my name a big problem for me & the way I pronounce it is even a bigger problem for the immigration folk. They re-named me Freud, ( apt! I chucked then) entered that in the register, and officially I became Archie Freud . Archie is for Arshad , a name I had always liked and was given that as my `christain` name when the immigration guy, fat beet-red face one, insisted that Arshad was too foreign & a jawlocker for him.

Sixty long years seem now like the blink of an eye! Such a Psychiatric I was that, in serving science & humanism, I became a psycho myself and was committed to the proper places many a times during my shining career & gloomy disposition. Some alluded this to the genius in me and such a price is small for those like me to pay to serve humanity and reassert my Insaanyat in ways other than the mundane kind. I sometimes feel that it is my obssessive cynicism to keep a score on my insaanyat index that blew my brainfuse.

Despite all the laurels and dollars , I was still uneasy with this post-modernistic, humanistic heritage of mine. Hell, the kids, no longer kids by the way, were determined to manufacture their own heritage, as muslim, and were going out of the way to refuse to inherit anything at all from the mounds of Moenjo Dero or the hollows of Harrapaa . This really did me in. I mean with all the heritage that I accumulated and now here my own flesh and blood wanted to disinherit all that!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------


...So When I returned to the area I had left as Chukk 420 I tried to prove & convince the people running the heritage industry, primarily the Jaw-lockers--the Tongued-ones (ahli-Zubaan), but no one was interested anymore.They ahd outslaved me by a single U-turn. They were all trying to become a mirror image of the people from the land of bilk & money.

I learnt that behind my back they sneered at my attempt to speak in the Jawlock-way or the neo-Tongue-Ones way.

They were calling me Dr. Fraud.

Re: # 265
dear nature lover...can we talk more outside the chowk forum as i am interested in your description of 'risky behaviour in life'?
sincerely
sohail

Re:# 264

Dear Dr Sohail,

My analysis is based on the information,which I got from the books you wrote or translated, your articles and your interacts.

You may not be even aware of your own risky behaviour in life.

Regards,

Re: # 263
dear nature lover...i thoroughly enjoyed your free analysis.
you have a creative mind.
i am curious what inspired you to do that...
...smiles..sohail

Brief psycho analysis of author , which we will call "patient" in the following analysis .

Patient was born in a traditional family based Muslim society and due to some tragedies and untreated mental illnesses in his family he suffered from traumas and abuse.

His parent society and his family fed him well , and as he had good memory and rote skills hence he became a medical doctor, which was a highly respected position in that society.

Patient had hidden grudges against that society , and he could not cope with those repressed thoughts of revenge, at his own.

Some how patient came to Canada, and again, due to his memorizing skills and rote abilities he became a psychiatrist.

He started his practice in a small lonely town , near Toronto.

In the beginning he kept his faith in God and did some good jobs for humanity by translating some important stuff of psychology and psychiatry in his native language Urdu.

In the mean time when he saw doolars , alcohol,drugs and other related indulgences, then he got tempted, and decided to go for them.

He also needed escape mechanisms to cope with the harsh and alien realities of the weather and culture of his adopted society.

The only hurdle in his way was his belief in God, hence as a defence mechanism, and to supress his guilt, he denounced his faith publicly.

Due to his delusional disorder, he thought in this way he might become famous and immortal in this world.

Due to brain damage and the bad company he was keeping, he started showing signs of untreated psychosis and he started considering himself as a prophet of the new age.

He grew long hair, and felt grand and declared himself as a great brain of 20th century who was going to finish his parent society through his write ups and dialouges etc..

In the mean time his life and his immediate surroundings showed signs of change, decay and confusion , and as he couldn't face that loss, hence as a second defence mechanism he came up with these generalized statements that the realms of religion, family values and nationalism were decaying.

If patient keep his present habits and his present company then chances of his recovery are minimum.

If patient repents, and forgives his parent society and reconnects to his roots then there are chances of his survival and peace of mind.

Patient can serve his parent society better by continuing translating pure science and psychology subjects, without making futile attempts of destroying the very fabric of faith and family values etc..

Read "My the eyeballs of the peons of the West " as

May the eyeballs of the peons of the West

Further to #260 the word "outgrowing" used by this shrink implies an evolution to a higher plane- let me remind you that abandoning your wives and leaving them as single moms, not paying child support, worshipping at the altars of material goods and their symbols and starting wars garbed in master symbols in a most hypocritical manner does not involve evolution it involves degeneration back to a selfish id ridden existence where selfish interest maximization at the expense of all and sundry involves the human brute and not civilization. This "outgrowing" this shrink is talking about is actually degenration where "freedom" is equated with "just do it" regardless of the consequences for the earth or the fellow. My the eyeballs of the peons of the West like this shrink ROT in their sockets, and may the maggots feast on their dirty flesh while they are living just as in their death."...and that is all I have to say....sobs the whole goddamned lot of them

The shrink writes "i think humanity is outgrowing them "

What humanity is outgrowing is enslavement to the white man and you are the dirty remnant of the type they reject. Religion is very much alive and kicking, and where it is not, nationalism and its symbols have replaced it as the new civil religion. The symbols of the market itself with its sacred and profane have become akin to religion, a more destructive religion whose priests are ready to destroy the world for their greed. Marriage has been devalued for the same reason due to economic forces where alternatives have warped from it they have harmed women moreso than men following in the broad structure of the capitalist society that liberates women by raping and killing and impoverishing them, segments societies based on race and gender and reward based on gradations of those that best fit withing the elite's worldview and objective appearance...now take your shrinkery and shove it...

Re: # 258

" i think modern life is forcing us to review three traditions...
religion
nationalism
marriage"

Agree with you 100% there.

Feminism is a scourge of this century that needs to be studied too.

Re: # 257
dear sattar2...i think modern life is forcing us to review three traditions...
religion
nationalism
marriage
i think humanity is outgrowing them but since we do not have better alternatives yet so we are going through a transition...having a breakdown before we have the breakthrough where we can
cherish spirituality and secular humanism rather than religion
have global village rather than narrow nationalism
and
long term loving relationships rather than marriage in which men and women equally respect and cherish each other.
so alongside socioeconomic changes that you mentioned there are also fundamental philosophical and ideological changes...all over the world....with the rise and fall of capitalism and communism in 20th century we need a new way of thinking in 21st century to grow individually and evolve collectively.
thank you for a genuine dialogue that is becoming an exception....smiles...sohail

Dr. Sohail (#199),

Since we are largely in agreement, here are some additional (skeptical) thoughts to round out the discussion:

The institution of marriage itself is on the decline in the USA. Ironically, this decline is more obvious in lower economic classes than in the upper ones. Is marriage becoming a luxury out of the reach of the poor? I don’t think this decline has to do with some newly found sense of liberation, self-identification amongst the poor. It may have to do with financial struggles of an average Joe … which may explain the correlation with one’s economic classification.

Furthermore, it seems that “healthy-eating” and “cooking-at-home” are starting to become elitist activities in the US. It is much cheaper to pick up a “KFC bucket” or “Happy Meals” … than to prepare meals at home. And if one includes the cost of labor … in buying groceries, cooking, cleaning, doing the dishes, etc., it makes even less sense to cook at home. This financial calculus may explain why the poorer people are driven to fast-food chains more than the affluent ones.

As we all know, this cheap and quick food is damaging to one’s health. Ironically, those most likely to suffer these adverse health affects (the poor) are least likely to have the awareness or healthcare to deal with them. And this yet may kick-start a downward spiral for some and their families …

I don’t think people are driven to fast-food out of a sense of liberation from “chores of cooking and cleaning”. Rather, the reasons for this shift are to be found in silent, almost imperceptible socio-economic factors.

+++

The larger point I am trying to make is that … women desiring to have no children, decline of marriage, rise in fast-food trends … represent harsher side of the socio-economics; the response of an (below?) average Joe or Jane dealing with financial strains and inner anxieties … as they struggle to create the “dream lives” neatly packaged and mass-marketed to them.

Teshah (#194),

I agree in that … women and men have equally important, but complementary roles. Quran recognizes these differences and defines their roles in a manner that is consistent with their respective biological and psychological profiles.

While Quran gives sons larger share of inheritance (than daughters) and allows men multiple wives, it also places larger financial burden on men’s shoulders. A man is perhaps given the upper hand in decision-making … but will be judged harshly by the Almighty if he fails to deliver to his wife and children in just and equitable manner.

Treatment of women in the same manner as men in every aspect aims to erase deeply-rooted gender differences. Such viewpoints attempt to implement an ill thought-out version of equality, while ignoring larger realities of our existence.

later, have to reboot my system, it has recently suffered a creative genius overload at the expense of hamid.....

in admiration of my creative genius:

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In #250 read You buddy as Your buddy

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masadi: you are doing good!! you are well on your way to becoming famous on the Guiness Book of World Records that I mentioned below.

hamidm: instead of aiming to play golf like a white man you should aim higher and aim to play it like that half-thai-half-black man instead.

masadi mian,

....... just to make sure that you do not infect the feeble minded young ones who might stumble onto this site, i will continue to spend some time here ..... seeing that it is summer and i would like to improve my golf game so that i can play like a white man, maybe i can work out a schedule with tahmed sahib to make sure that one of us is here to block and tackle an imbecile like you ...... thank god there are not many of your other kind otherwise i would have to spend my entire life on chowk !

In #245 read "and you MORONS that have populate chowk staff are trying to encourage their BS"

and you MORONS that populate chowk staff are trying to encourage their BS

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hamidm: ok, play golf then. i am not babysitting masadi for you though.

hamidm: and i do maintain some standards. i draw the line on chatting with those with an IQ less than 23.

Re: # 236

tahmed mian,

.... anyway i have decided to work on my golf game this year before arthritis sets in ... so off i go - keep an eye on masadi and if he pops up, just whack him upside the head! .... i will be back if i can drag my sorry ass off the nineteenth ....

hamidm #235 what can be better than chatting on chowk? agreed it is a waste of time. so what. there used to be a time i barely had time to go to the loo or have my lunch. big deal.

Re: # 232

yes tahmed ji,

..... if you and i had anything better to do we would not be lowering ourselves like this - i think it is time for somone to take us out and shoot us ......... and that goes for everyone else here - we are a pathetic bunch of fools ..... pretty soon we will all need therapy like masadi ......

#233 hamidm: dont pass on recipes that you have tried on yourself with no success to poor masadi!!

masadi mian,

..... sometimes i feel realy bad for you - it must be horrible to go through life feeling unloved and unwanted ..... here is something you might want to try - every morning when you get up, look in the mirror and repeat this three times :

.... i'm good enough, i'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me......... i am a worthy human being...and that's okay"

hamidm: you mean one lowers oneself by spending time on chowk?

Re: # 228

tahmed mian,

........ unlike you, i am a realist ..... i know it 'feels' good to live in denial but it does not change reality - it is a cruel world out there .... like i have said before, when you piss in your pants it gives you a nice warm feeling but before long you begin to stink ..........

masadi: what's with this "later" and "g'nite" which is then immediately followed by more posts? you dont need to go out of your way to prove you are insane. or is this your way of getting an appointment in Dr. Sohail's busy schedule?

#226 peonsahib: but that man did turn out to be the last Romanov prince, did he not peonsahib?

hamidm #221 "the day dr hoodbhoy actually interacts on chowk i will loose all respect for him .."

spoken like a true lota, sir. you remind me of groucho marx who said he would never join any club that is willing to accept his as a member.

Re: # 226

masadi saab, we had someone like you in our mohallah saab. all the kids used to run after him saab and throw things at him saab, also some used to say ....

paaghal...e...oye............

the assorted peons write "and where has it got you saab? you are a joke saab.."

Success is not measured by position or material wealth in my definition. Even one person that I freed from the bondage of thought imposed by the white man is life time achievement enough for me. You can laugh all you want the last joke will be on your kind, the days of your master's rule are nearing their end.....then will humanity rejoice...

later....

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Re: # 214


tahmed,

......... i beg to differ with you on your statment that "Dr. Sohail participates in chowk discussions wrt his articles. Which puts him way ahead of specimen like Hoodbhoy " ........

........ look, dr hoodbhoy is somebody and anybody who is somebody would not stoop to interacting with fools like you and me and the other clowns that inhabit the chowk ..... let's be realistic and not fool ourselves - this forum is not meant fo intellectual discourse, it is meant for lufangebazi and venting by a bunch of has-been semi-retired pakis and some younger horrible hindoos who cannot get jobs as code coolies .......

......... the only redeeming feature that chowk has is that it hasn't (yet) fallen to the level that it will publish anything written by a psychopath like masadi ... the day dr hoodbhoy actually interacts on chowk i will loose all respect for him .........

Re: # 215

masadi saab(I am there, now for the past over 2 years, busting his mythology and putting him in the bad books of this dog's masters who....)

and where has it got you saab? you are a joke saab.

Re: # 212
tahmeedi saab(You have beena t it for two years now, and I know you can do it. I am rooting for you, while Hamidm and Peonofthewest can only turn green with envy at your achievement!)

i am not green saab and donot think that day will be here soon saab. masadi saab needs a shrink very urgently saab so he can feel better saab. then we can all feel better saab.

maybe not saab. if masadi saab cannot write what he writes saab, then what is he going to write saab. that is all he knows saab

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#204: Dr. Sohail is an example for what lowlife like you should try to be, instead of giving him lectures from the safety of your anonymous nick.

Dr. Sohail has the courage and self-respect to use his real name, rather than hide behind an anonymous nick like a coward as you do.

Dr. Sohail participates in chowk discussions wrt his articles. Which puts him way ahead of specimen like Hoodbhoy and others who act as if the are too good to lower themselves to discussing their articles at a mere internet discussion group where there are no important people around to impress!

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masadi: Dont let negative remarks discourage you from your struggle to make it to the Guiness Book of World Records by (to use the officil title of the category) "Remaining Continuously Self-inflated, Stupid, Abusive, Hypocritical, Lying, Self-righteous and Angry for Ten years".

You have beena t it for two years now, and I know you can do it. I am rooting for you, while Hamidm and Peonofthewest can only turn green with envy at your achievement!

Re: # 207

masadi saab
(the assorted peons writes "masadi saab we have been asking you to provide us the expertise saab..."
Hamid gave a graphic discription of that on chowk once, read through his interacts, and learn from your supervisor, the white man has designated him his chief peon on Chowk.... )

some white man has fukked u up big time saab.

..... i don't know about the rest of us, but the mothering instinct turned out be a bad thing for humanity in some cases ........ if hitler, osama, masadi, zeemax, mohammad, jesus, the dalai lama, jeffery dahmer, charles manson, peewee herman, hillary clinton, hannah montana and the irritating man who invented infomercials had been strangled by their mothers at birth we would all have been better off ......... mother does not know best after all .....

#206 Posted by masadi,

Masadi, dissing religion was fine, many people do it, but dissing the 'mother' instinct? That is indeed breaking a new record and reaching a new low of moral depth. I mean, did Dr. Sohail ask his Mom what it's about before writing this? She would have told him exactly what it was.

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Dr. Sohail,

I finally read the article, prompted by an interact below. Wow this is unbelievable. You certainly excel and break your own records in each article:

I am gradually realizing that mothering is not only an instinctual behavior it is also a learnt behaviour.

There's an old tale (in Islamic folklore) that a peron was asked by his beloved to cut out his mother's heart and bring it to her as a gift. The person did so and while carrying it to his beloved, tripped on a stone. A voice came from the heart "Beta, cha'ut tau nahi lagi?"

But this little story is just narrated to ignorant, un-evolved folks like us while being taught to respect their mothers in conjunction with the fictitious commandments written by some bedouins telling us "Jannat resides under a Mother's feet". How silly!

I wonder, however, how is it that mama kangaroos hop around with baby kangaroos in their pouches, and mama kites will come to pluck out your eyes if the eggs they're sitting on - merely eggs - not even baby kites yet, are disturbed.

I'm sure there's a perfectly logical & scientific explanation for all of above. I just need to get to it.

Dear Dr Sohail,

I didn't read your article as from the heading one can tell about its contents.

While sitting in the freezing lonely corner of Canada , your such write ups cannot even produce minor ripples in huge traditional family based, warm and pulsating societies...

All I can request from you is that please don't give your personal address and contact information to every aera ghera nathoo khaira..

Today's world is a dangerous place and some day some one may get you.

You never know who is hiding behind nicks like "charlie' or sweet "miss mona" kind of people ...I hope you understand and stop going on blind meetings..

One can tell from your photograph that you were abused by life , and you are a vulnerable displaced soul..who needs phycho therapy and help..so you need to have mercy on yourself my friend.

Re: # 202

masadi saab said(No, you listen to me, Go F yourself!)

masadi saab we have been asking you to provide us the expertise saab. we donot know how to "F ourselves" as you suggest saab.

we all know you do it regularly yourself saab. if you show it to all then we can all be self sufficient saab.

isnt that what you are trying to get all pakistanis to do saab? to be self sufficient and not rely on west saab?

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Re: # 200
it was gibberish but your wise comments made it interesting..smiles
kujh shehr day loag vi zalam sun
kujh men maran da shock vi si

such achha par us kay liay koi aur maray to aur achha....
ibn insha

Anything interesting going on here or the usual Dr. Sohail gibberish? (sorry Dr. Sohail :)

Re: # 193
dear sattar2...i fully agree with your letter. i have no bias that having no children is better than having children. i am just saying that the reality is that some people....non traditional and secular and creative tend to have less children than traditional and religious people. for me more important aspect is the element of CHOICE. if someone chooses to have 6 children that is great but if a woman chooses to have no children and become mother teresa or a nurse or a doctor or a social worker, that is great too. i have met women who feel the pressure from their conservative families and religious cultures to get married and once they are married to have children. i think as cultures are evolving more and more men and women are having more choices. if i gave an impression of value judgment that was not the intention...i was sharing my observations and trying to understand them from a psychological and sociological perspective. i think we are on the same page at least i think we are....smiles...sohail

'Pony of the West' and 'Useless Elite', are you the same person? Contact Drrrrrr. Sohail please............

Re: # 188

masadi saab, listen to westy and "the boss" saab, otherwise they will whip your ass saab. they whipped my ass once and i was not able to walk straight for years saab

it is not the content saab but the stupidity in the words saab. it gets very annoying saab like an old broken record saab.................................

Re: # 189

sorry masadi saab, "the boss" is very upset saab

Re: # 190

Masadi listen to us.

We sent you to Pakistan for a reason and you are not abiding by our rules. If you don't comply then we are going to have to terminate your contract with us.

The Peon of the West tried to warn you but you are a complete idiot.

We hope you understand.

Regards.

The US Elite

Re: # 191

Sattar2

A very realistic write-up indeed. This is what the age-old wisdom enshrined in Quran says. Men and women are 'Zoujein', complementary to one an other and not similar and equal.

“… in my opinion those men, women and couples who have less choices follow their instincts and create lots and lots of babies … when cultures provide more choices then people can choose not to follow instincts and become more creative rather than procreative ...”

Dr. Sohail (#192),

Your comment may have validity up to a certain point. What you are overlooking is that … when people have choices, arguably they want to follow their instincts! This would imply desiring to have some children - perhaps not as many as ten kids, but certainly more than none.

If a person having ”too many” children supposedly has a warped outlook in life, enslaved by religious dogma, then, by similar argument, a person desiring to have no children at all too has a warped outlook, enslaved by a certain set of imposed rules. This is where you seem to take your eye off the ball.

In your writings, you seem to portray women desiring to have no children in a positive light - as liberated individuals, with strong identities, following their dreams. At the same time, you tend to portray women desiring too many children in a negative light … as bound and bogged by religious, cultural dogma.

Warped outlook remains warped outlook, regardless of its source or our personal preferences. And there is another dimension to this issue:

Human misery is a lucrative business. Keeping women from getting pregnant, esp. those below 30 years of age, is big business. Getting women pregnant, esp. those above 30 years of age, too is big business. What role is played by HMOs and for-profit corporations in this regard, cannot be ignored. From what I have observed, even western women have strong instincts to bear children. Not being able to do so often leaves them with a sense of “something missing” in their lives.

Your examples of women not wanting to have children … raise more questions than they answer. One wonders if these women are victims of inner insecurities, dysfunctional dreams, and deeper anxieties. Some people need prodding before they come out of their shells. Taking everything on face value, without exploring other possibilities, may at times lead to a flawed conclusion. Such a conclusion may fit better with one’s own preferences and values, but keeps one from getting to the truth of the matter. And at times I think you tend to err in this regard.

Re: # 191
CREATIVE OR PROCREATIVE
dear sattar....thank you for your detailed thoughts on the subject. i agree with you that changes in socio-economic conditions are affecting people's choices. to me those changes are part of evolving cultures in different parts of the world whether capitalistic or socialistic, religious or secular. in my opinion those men, women and couples who have less choices follow their instincts and create lots and lots of babies. even in the west catholic families have far more children than secular families. when cultures provide more choices then people can choose not to follow insticts and become more creative rather than procreative. sincerely sohail

Dr. Sohail, ... some (skeptical?) thoughts on the issue of gender differences.

Our limbs and body parts are accompanied with instincts on how to make the best use of them. Ears and tongue are accompanied with instincts to speak, legs and arms come with instincts to walk, teeth and jaw muscles with instincts to chew and swallow … and so on.

Functionality of a woman’s body is very much built around the tasks of conceiving, bearing, delivering, and nurturing a child. It is an intricate system, fine-tuned over billions of years. The accompanying nurturing instincts must be equally intricate and fine-tuned … and I doubt if a man’s nurturing instincts can ever be at par with those of a woman. This is an open-and-shut case in my view.

100 years of industrialization, 40 years of feminism, 20 years of information revolution is not enough to offset instincts of billion-plus years. So I remain skeptical of new-age explanations telling us that the gender gap has drastically shrunk. It has not … it remains wide as ever. Explanations insisting otherwise are based upon superficial, perfunctory analysis.

As for women/men who no longer want to have children … I think a bulk of explanation lies in the recent changes in the socio-economic structures. I think masadi is on to something here. The so-called progress is largely driven by desire and ability for Uber-consumerism … where people are mindlessly chasing images mass-marketed to them through glossy magazines, cable tv, and yes, the internet. The capitalist ideal of increasing one’s per-hour industrial productivity is neatly packaged and sold to everyone … men, women, and children. As productivity rises, so does the cost of living. One-income families yield to two-income families; it’s a downward spiral. Soon, Credit appears on the scene, followed by cars that change every year, designer clothes, packaged frozen food, and now, HDTVs. It is a race to the bottom. Who has time for children?

+++

Fatherhood may very well be an innate instinct … whereby the father ensures propagation of his genes to the next generation. Perhaps fathers taught their children how to climb tress, in primitive days; shooting arrows, in later days; and how to get into a good college, nowadays. The underlying theme remains constant more or less … to teach their children how to survive and excel in a given environment.

Hamidm, or any other man, would perhaps be more inclined to jump off the bridge to save his wife if she was pregnant, esp. with their first child. This inclination would probably recede as she bears more children, as she ages, as her fertility declines. I think these are facts disturbing to some, and hence the new-age humanism, which largely fails to account for the bleak side of our existence.

+++


I remain skeptical of ideologies that downplay gender differences. That is not to say that men’s and women’s roles are completely exclusive; nay, there’s a significant overlap. I view the two genders operating in spheres of life, with complementary primary and secondary roles.

Primarily, men are best suited for earning a living; women, for taking care of the household. That’s simply how their respective instincts have evolved and exist today. At a secondary level, these roles may be switched … with men changing diapers and women sharing the burden of making a living. This sharing of responsibilities takes the burden off the stressed partner, giving him/her time to regain strength and composure … after which they return to the roles they are best suited for.

Yes, a woman can be trained for a full-time corporate role and a man may be trained to become a full-time nanny. Similarly, a cat, with enough training, may learn to bark and look after a herd. Doing so would be an immensely inefficient process. Eventually these inefficiencies will cost mankind in more ways than one.

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Re: # 181
dear dr shah murad...i like your enthusiasm. my sister lives in lahore but i am in canada and have a creative psychotherapy clinic. please write to me on my personal
email address...
welcome@drsohail.com
and we can chat
sincerely
khalid sohail
www.drsohail.com
ps...the last time i was in lahore was to interview javed iqbal mughal in his death cell in kot lakhpat jail in 2000

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good dr saheb.
nice to interact wd u.
u wrote story of my mind on "psychology of mothering".
by the way where u work now a days?
I m Dr.Shah Murad,Associate Professor in Pharmacology deptt: at lahore medical and dental college,LAHORE.
my cell # is 0314-2243415
What is ur cell # sir?

good dr saheb.
nice to interact wd u.
u wrote story of my mind on "psychology of mothering".
by the way where u work now a days?
I m Dr.Shah Murad,Associate Professor in Pharmacology deptt: at lahore medical and dental college,LAHORE.
my cell # is 0314-2243415
What is ur cell # sir?

masadi: since i can see you have made an attempt to write like something approaching a civilized man (try avoiding references to balls in future) rather than a maniac, I'll tell you why the substance of what you wrote in #161 is bs. This is why:

You are merely repeating long discarded beliefs when you say "mental ailments tht are quite social in their cause, treating them as if they were private problems requiring a quick fix pill". This displays your ignorance of modern psychiatry. Here is something to get you to started on the basics (from wikipedia):

Following Sigmund Freud's death, ideas stemming from psychoanalytic theory also began to take root.[48] The psychoanalytic theory became popular among psychiatrists because it allowed the patients to be treated in private practices instead of asylums.[48] However the progress of psychiatry by the 1970s turned psychoanalytic theory into a marginal school of thought within the field.[48]


Otto Loewi's work led to the identification of the first neurotransmitter, acetylcholine.This period of time saw the reemergence of biological psychiatry. Psychopharmacology became an integral part of psychiatry starting with Otto Loewi's discovery of the first neurotransmitter, acetylcholine.[49] Neuroimaging was first utilized as a tool for psychiatry in the 1980s.[50] The discovery of chlorpromazine's effectiveness in treating schizophrenia in 1952 revolutionized treatment of the disease, [51] as did lithium carbonate's ability to stabilize mood highs and lows in bipolar disorder in 1948.[52] While psychosocial issues were still seen as valid, psychotherapy was seen to be their "cure."[53] Genetics were once again thought to play a role in mental illness.[49] Molecular biology opened the door for specific genes contributing mental disorders to be identified.[49] By 1995 genes contributing to schizophrenia had been identified on chromosome 6 and those genes contributing to bipolar disorder on chromosomes 18 and 21.[49]

The numbers themselves 22% of the population to 80% suggest that such ailments are not personal in character but rather are social and need solutions aimed at a structure that is producing such ailments regardless of personal character or idiosyncrasies. If we followed the shrink mode of treatment, there would be no need for epidimologists and epidemic patterns would never be studied to get to the source of the spread, whole populations would be wiped out as people went about treating the person only- this however is not how it is supposed to work- it worked like that in the dark ages and the white man lost entire cities to disease.....tahmed as an apologist for the elite would i) mask the distress that shows up in a wide percent of the US population because of their system ii)sacrifice the majority to save the system of his masters. He should be horsewhipped, put on a donkey and jeered through every town of every country of the world, like the olympic torch as kids whip his a$$ with slippers....

BTW According to the Chicago Trib's report, estimates suggest that up to 80% of US society displays some form of psychological symptoms, and that up to 22% have psychological problems serious enough to interfere with their day to day living which are diagnosable (Chicago Tribune 12/1999). The number of registered shrinks is the highest it has ever been in the US, number of prescriptions they give out is also a record that shows regular increase, YET these shrinks claim that they fix people's problems by treatment at the private level- Of course they are full of BS and are making money at the expense of the public by hoodwinking them with their nonsense and drugging them to deal with the injustices of an alienating system they live under because for the tens of millions alcohol as escape is just not strong enough, and other escapes like over consumption have produced a massively obese society.....these shrink are mere tools in the hands of the elite to mitigate the effects of a system that is barbarous to the core.....

In addition to #161 that these shrinks cannot refute, let me post this news report:..

---
Stay calm everyone, there's Prozac in the drinking waterMark Townsend The Observer,
Sunday August 8 2004
This article appeared in the Observer on Sunday August 08 2004 on p1 of the News section.

It should make us happy, but environmentalists are deeply alarmed: Prozac, the anti-depression drug, is being taken in such large quantities that it can now be found in Britain's drinking water.

Environmentalists are calling for an urgent investigation into the revelations, describing the build-up of the antidepressant as 'hidden mass medication'. The Environment Agency has revealed that Prozac is building up both in river systems and groundwater used for drinking supplies.

The government's chief environment watchdog recently held a series of meetings with the pharmaceutical industry to discuss any repercussions for human health or the ecosystem.

The discovery raises fresh fears that GPs are overprescribing Prozac, Britain's antidepressant of choice. In the decade up to 2001, overall prescriptions of antidepressants rose from nine million to 24 million a year.

A recent report by the Environment Agency concluded Prozac could be potentially toxic in the water table and said the drug was a 'potential concern'.

However, the precise quantity of Prozac in the nation's water supplies remains unknown. The government's Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) said Prozac was likely to be found in a considerably 'watered down' form that was unlikely to pose a health risk.

Dr Andy Croxford, the Environment's Agency's policy manager for pesticides, told The Observer: 'We need to determine the effects of this low-level, almost continuous discharge.'

Norman Baker, the Liberal Democrat's environment spokesman, said the revelations exposed a failing by the government on an important public health issue. He added that the public should be told if they were inadvertently taking drugs like Prozac.

'This looks like a case of hidden mass medication upon the unsuspecting public,' Baker said. 'It is alarming that there is no monitoring of levels of Prozac and other pharmacy residues in our drinking water.'

Experts say that Prozac finds its way into rivers and water systems from treated sewage water. Some believe the drugs could affect their reproductive ability.

European studies have also expressed disquiet over the impact of pharmaceuticals building up in the environment, warning that an effect on wildlife and human health 'cannot be excluded'.

'It is extremely unlikely that there is a risk, as such drugs are excreted in very low concentrations,' a DWI spokesman said. 'Advanced treatment processes installed for pesticide removal are effective in removing drug residues,' he added.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/aug/08/health.mentalhealth

tahmed writes "as for the substance of what you wrote, that was bs of