Khalid Sohail April 13, 2008
#1 Posted by masadi on April 14, 2008 1:33:24 am
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#2 Posted by masadi on April 14, 2008 1:34:20 am
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#3 Posted by masadi on April 14, 2008 1:37:03 am
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#4 Posted by vengatramanan on April 14, 2008 2:22:54 am
Dr. Saab,
Masadi's acerbic post has truth in it. You have tried to be a dispassionate observer/reporter, but what you have highlighted is the sad state of affairs of the westerners. They have lost their priorities.
May be you should try to find out why the women, I believe it constitutes of westerners at this point of time, find motherhood less gratifying.
Is it going to be a 'Matrix' like situation?
Masadi's acerbic post has truth in it. You have tried to be a dispassionate observer/reporter, but what you have highlighted is the sad state of affairs of the westerners. They have lost their priorities.
May be you should try to find out why the women, I believe it constitutes of westerners at this point of time, find motherhood less gratifying.
Is it going to be a 'Matrix' like situation?
#5 Posted by tahir on April 14, 2008 6:14:50 am
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#6 Posted by tahir on April 14, 2008 6:35:21 am
Re: # 4
Blame the steroids in the food-chain for the strange behaviour!
Although the damage is done, do return to the Motherland Dr. sahib, before it is too late.
Your distant well-wisher.
PS: I admit that here grown men solve their own family problems very well, so you may not be able to achieve your psycho 'practise' target.
Blame the steroids in the food-chain for the strange behaviour!
Although the damage is done, do return to the Motherland Dr. sahib, before it is too late.
Your distant well-wisher.
PS: I admit that here grown men solve their own family problems very well, so you may not be able to achieve your psycho 'practise' target.
#7 Posted by nb on April 14, 2008 6:54:04 am
Dr Sohail, not everyone is equipped for parenting; however, throughout history, everyone has done it. There are still too many children being born to parents, including mothers, who do not have the emotional capacity to rear goldfish.
A thought I had while reading your article, is that in many societies, the only achievement a woman has which is recognised by others is being a mother. When women can achieve personal fulfilment and social recognition in other ways, motherhood ceases to have the same importance it did earlier.
A thought I had while reading your article, is that in many societies, the only achievement a woman has which is recognised by others is being a mother. When women can achieve personal fulfilment and social recognition in other ways, motherhood ceases to have the same importance it did earlier.
#8 Posted by drsohail on April 14, 2008 7:24:26 am
Dear nb...your thought is very precious. Becoming parents for centuries was more instinctual than a conscious choice made after a lot of soul searching. i agree with you that as women have more choices and different ways to make their lives meaningful, mothering may not be the top priority. Do you see any significant difference in the attitudes of Eastern as compared to Western women in relation to mothering? sincerely sohail
#9 Posted by hamidm2 on April 14, 2008 8:18:39 am
.... motherhood (and fatherhood) is a great thing but it can be very disappointing if you end up rearing fools like masadi and tahir mian ..... these two make a very good case for not having children .........
#10 Posted by Charlie on April 14, 2008 10:28:40 am
Dr Sahib, Great article. I really appreciate your uniform tone void of any emotions and personal opinions about socially wrong/right to do things.
As far as the issue of changing psychology of mothers is concerned, I think that nature in animal kingdom doesn't change in a few generation or even a few hundred years. However a society, based on its basic principles , results in enforcing its ideals on individual personalities. In the individualistic society of west, concept of team work (as a member of a family) has become a secondary thing. Individual success is considered being as much independent as possible. And success as a family has lost its meaning. This is obviously against the nature of animal kingdom where male is chosen based on its ability to defend/support his family while female is considered to be controlling the family internally, taking care of her children.
Modern woman , to avoid being considered weak and dependent on her husband (which she is wrongfully considered if she controls the family internally while giving control of external responsibilities to male) has to cosmetically appear like being independent and strong. As a result, natural behaviors are overcome by cultural pressures. I am not sure though if these tendencies against nature have any harms for the society in long run.
As far as the issue of changing psychology of mothers is concerned, I think that nature in animal kingdom doesn't change in a few generation or even a few hundred years. However a society, based on its basic principles , results in enforcing its ideals on individual personalities. In the individualistic society of west, concept of team work (as a member of a family) has become a secondary thing. Individual success is considered being as much independent as possible. And success as a family has lost its meaning. This is obviously against the nature of animal kingdom where male is chosen based on its ability to defend/support his family while female is considered to be controlling the family internally, taking care of her children.
Modern woman , to avoid being considered weak and dependent on her husband (which she is wrongfully considered if she controls the family internally while giving control of external responsibilities to male) has to cosmetically appear like being independent and strong. As a result, natural behaviors are overcome by cultural pressures. I am not sure though if these tendencies against nature have any harms for the society in long run.
#11 Posted by Kulharee on April 14, 2008 10:41:01 am
Hamid Saab, you make a good point, but it is also equally important for people to have a reason (or see one) to count their blessings. So yes, you have a good point.
Masadi Sahib, I wouldn’t shut up even if you paid me to do so. The question is, can you afford it.
Dr Sohail Sahib, as always a good and educational write-up from you. You argue that everyone should try to fill the void resulted by neglect or poor mothering. Wouldn’t such an approach absolve the perps? Society does do its part as it is. I would say that biological parents should monetarily, emotionally, and psychologically be held responsible for bringing up the child, even it means by decree. If they were eager enough to make a child, they better provide nurturing as well. Uninvolved parents should be put in jails and made to work to pay for the well being of the child. There is no sight sadder than seeing a neglected child. At the time of the popping out (just when the head is out) both mother (and father, if present) should be made to sign a commitment letter, else the Obstetrician should threaten to push the child back in. Only kiddin, but pre-natal care should include a major dose of parenting lessons. For single mothers, welfare orgs should step in. In the whole design, getting pregnant or giving birth is perhaps the easiest chore, raising children the hardest. I was present at the birth of my first child, and I was amazed by the whole experience. I honestly believed that a woman giving birth had more power than a locomotive (I still do), and now that we are raising two teenagers, that part in retrospect appears not any more testing than being a good parent.
Masadi Sahib, I wouldn’t shut up even if you paid me to do so. The question is, can you afford it.
Dr Sohail Sahib, as always a good and educational write-up from you. You argue that everyone should try to fill the void resulted by neglect or poor mothering. Wouldn’t such an approach absolve the perps? Society does do its part as it is. I would say that biological parents should monetarily, emotionally, and psychologically be held responsible for bringing up the child, even it means by decree. If they were eager enough to make a child, they better provide nurturing as well. Uninvolved parents should be put in jails and made to work to pay for the well being of the child. There is no sight sadder than seeing a neglected child. At the time of the popping out (just when the head is out) both mother (and father, if present) should be made to sign a commitment letter, else the Obstetrician should threaten to push the child back in. Only kiddin, but pre-natal care should include a major dose of parenting lessons. For single mothers, welfare orgs should step in. In the whole design, getting pregnant or giving birth is perhaps the easiest chore, raising children the hardest. I was present at the birth of my first child, and I was amazed by the whole experience. I honestly believed that a woman giving birth had more power than a locomotive (I still do), and now that we are raising two teenagers, that part in retrospect appears not any more testing than being a good parent.
#12 Posted by drsohail on April 14, 2008 10:41:27 am
dear charlie...thank you for your generous comments. i fully agree with you that each person has to make a choice between his/her personal dreams and cultural expectations. don't you think that human nature is significantly different than animal nature. in animals instincts are dominant but in humans conscious choices might ignore instinctual behaviour as we all give our unique meanings to our personal, family and social lives..i am as unsure as you are how our choices will determine the future of the species..sincerely sohail
#13 Posted by drsohail on April 14, 2008 10:50:02 am
Re: # 11
dear kulharee...i like your mischeivious sense of humour. i fully agree with you that biological mothers and fathers need to take responsibility. but i also feel that we need to protect children from those biological parents who are incapable of parenting and are either neglectful or abusive. having a child is because of the hormones but raising them needs a full time commitment and many are not as responsible and caring as you are. we need to see the issue from the point of view of the whole community and culture. if we had more parents like you we may noot need many social and child care organizations but the sad reality is that many young men and women are having children who are biologically adults but emotionally children....all the best...sohail
dear kulharee...i like your mischeivious sense of humour. i fully agree with you that biological mothers and fathers need to take responsibility. but i also feel that we need to protect children from those biological parents who are incapable of parenting and are either neglectful or abusive. having a child is because of the hormones but raising them needs a full time commitment and many are not as responsible and caring as you are. we need to see the issue from the point of view of the whole community and culture. if we had more parents like you we may noot need many social and child care organizations but the sad reality is that many young men and women are having children who are biologically adults but emotionally children....all the best...sohail
#14 Posted by hamidm2 on April 14, 2008 11:09:16 am
dr shohail,
.... 'mothering' is not a one-woman job as it used to be and still is in our primitive neck of the woods - it also takes a father to do the job correctly ..... you cannot just come in at the end of the day, pick up the kid for a few minutes, throw him up in the air, drop him on his head, hand it back to the mother and then expect the child to grow up as a normal person ...... that is why most desis are so screwed up - they never had real fathers ..... most of them 'love' their mothers but barely know their fathers .... maybe that is why they fly planes into tall buildings and do other nasty things - they are trying to get their father's attention ......... mind you, this is just a layman's theory without any scientific evidence ......
..... and there is nothing 'rewarding' about changing diapers, breast feeding and running around after brats all day long - it is menial and hard work which most people outsource to ayahs and nannies if they can afford it .... but there is a danger when you hire somone to do this job - just look at all those prophets who were sent away to be raised by a wet nurse ....
#15 Posted by CreateAlpha on April 14, 2008 11:12:52 am
dr. Sohail, I have seen it all..kids who had a mommy to stay at home with them who ended up being misfit chuckleheads to those who were raised by their nannies and day care agencies for most of the day and turned out to be fantastic kids. I have heard tales of stay at homes and workign moms complain about the grass being greener on the other side. I frankly admire those working moms who try to do it all, whether it is ambition, whether economic freedom...whether it is trying to make ends meet...whatever the case, they do not love hteir children any less.
Interestingly enough, the most misogynistic thing I evdr saw what when mothers of pakistani descent insisted on sending their teenager daughters back to pakistan...but keep theri sons here in the west. those girls that finished highschool, we co-opted to go back to get marriage regardless of what they got on their SAT's and their wishes to study further. these were all stay at home moms.
Interestingly enough, the most misogynistic thing I evdr saw what when mothers of pakistani descent insisted on sending their teenager daughters back to pakistan...but keep theri sons here in the west. those girls that finished highschool, we co-opted to go back to get marriage regardless of what they got on their SAT's and their wishes to study further. these were all stay at home moms.
#16 Posted by Charlie on April 14, 2008 11:28:43 am
#13 Dr Sahib,
Being a believer in Darwin's theory, shouldn't we allow the process of evolution take place as randomly as it has been taking place for several billion years. Trying to enforce our definition of "the fittest" (which can be different from mother nature's definition) and discouraging rest of them to reproduce might not help too much.
Or taking the matter from another angle, many great people born in history of mankind didn't have the privilege to enjoy parent's love and care. But hostile social conditions made them great men. Without any support by parents, they learnt to face the world themselves in their own unique ways using their own creative personalities.
On the other hand, parents teach their kids to be like themselves resulting in mediocre, sissy, middle class engineers and doctors.
Being a believer in Darwin's theory, shouldn't we allow the process of evolution take place as randomly as it has been taking place for several billion years. Trying to enforce our definition of "the fittest" (which can be different from mother nature's definition) and discouraging rest of them to reproduce might not help too much.
Or taking the matter from another angle, many great people born in history of mankind didn't have the privilege to enjoy parent's love and care. But hostile social conditions made them great men. Without any support by parents, they learnt to face the world themselves in their own unique ways using their own creative personalities.
On the other hand, parents teach their kids to be like themselves resulting in mediocre, sissy, middle class engineers and doctors.
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