Akbar and Alexander

Re:nkhg#84

You didnt comment about the fact that the caste system became an endogamous construct where people only married within the caste and had very little social mobility across caste boundaries. I understand your point that it was a system for division of labor and originally it may have been a open system. However, it degenerated into a social structure that led to severe fragmentation of the society with rigid boundaries. How could such a society develop any common feeling of kinship? How could people step up and fight foreign occupiers when they were so isolated and foreign to each other?

India's lack of military resistance to centuries of imperial muslim rule is a matter of shame and cannot be wished away as the job of the kshatriyas/rajputs. When France was occupied by Nazis, the French started the resistance movement to sabotage the Nazis. When the British rule was unbearable, the Americans rebelled with ordinary farmers picking up arms to start a revolution. Shivaji and the sikhs are an example of what hindus could have done if they had a better socio-political system. In fact, then they may have never been conquered in the first place.

I agree with you about the existence of so many kingdoms as a huge reason for India's downfall. That is the second reason besides our decaying social structure for the lack of a unified resistance. It goes to the lack of a common feeling of kinship and extreme short-sightedness of India's hindu ruling class. They preferred to see their neighbor getting screwed, even enjoyed the sight rather than pick up arms to help him out. Its a sad lesson of history.

#96 Ranjit

[My merit based academic and professional accomplishments would dwarf yours..]

Well this is not a pissing contest. You should feel content with who you are. Why should you feel you need to trumpet your accomplishments? There is no need to feel inadequate. It doesn't matter how you got into IIT (if at all you did). And in any case, who's going to check?

Relax. You are okay just the way you are. Repeat this to yourself as many times as you can. It will have beneficial effects on your mind.

#95 muradbaig

[Let's stick to the known facts of history without ideological overlays.]

I can't believe my eyes! At last here's someone who sticks to objective facts! Wonderful.

[Brutal measures were necessary in brutal ancient times. There were few exceptions including Ashoka and Genghis Khan. But these were not plain blood lust but practical policy. Akbar and Alexander were quite kind when they could be but needed to make unforgettable examples to deter any who dared to oppose them. Genghis Khan would butcher the leaders and aristocrats of all the tribes that opposed him so that their leaderless followers were happy to join his ranks where there was the offer of equal spoils and plunder.]

Unfortunately, we are covering different KINDS of things under one umbrella. NO HINDU KING HAS EVER SLAUGHTERED INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

The ONLY PEOPLE who slaughtered inncocent civilians mostly belong to the following categories:

1) Communist ideologues like Stalin, Pol Pot etc.

2) Nazi ideologues like Hitler

3) Christian ideologues like the Crusaders,

3) Islamic ideologues like the Mughal emperors, Turkish rulers and of course, the head ideologue himself - Mohammed.

4) Uncivilized barbarians with barbaric traditions like Genghis Khan.


Of all these groups, the Islamic ideology has been the most potent in this respect, maybe because one can shame a Christian by asking "What would Christ do?", but one cannot ask a similar question of Muslims - "What would Mohammad do?" - he has left ample evidence of not only what we would have done, but what he ACTUALLY did - like the butchering of 700 unarmed civilians.

Ajeya,

I dont really care what you think about me. My merit based academic and professional accomplishments would dwarf yours so dont even go there. Its only a lowlife like you who would make casteist attacks on people in today's India. You must be from a older generation or perhaps you are a Bihari to have such fossilized thoughts. I pity you for that. Have a nice day....

The interacts have wandered off far away from the basic themes.

Brutal measures were necessary in brutal ancient times. There were few exceptions including Ashoka and Genghis Khan. But these were not plain blood lust but practical policy. Akbar and Alexander were quite kind when they could be but needed to make unforgettable examples to deter any who dared to oppose them. Genghis Khan would butcher the leaders and aristocrats of all the tribes that opposed him so that their leaderless followers were happy to join his ranks where there was the offer of equal spoils and plunder.

Free from the shackles of rigid religions or priests they were all quite flexible in dealing with subject people. Even Timur Lang was not religious in his slaughter of 90,000 at Baghdad or an alleged 80,000 in Delhi because he slaughtered all who opposed his armies and most of the victims were Muslims.

Akbar and Alexander were not original in making defeated rulers as their vassals. This had been very practical policy as they did not have the manpower to rule so many distant or hostile areas. But they were remarkable in that they both made serious efforts to merge with the locals. Persians were as honoured in Alexander's court as Rajput Emirs were honoured in Akbar's. Even Aurangzeb's main generals were Rajputs. He even offered Shivaji the command of 5000 but he refused as he wanted command of 8000 and then rebelled.

The alleged Rajput outrage about the Jodha Akbar film does not concern history about which most people are rather fuzzy but the fact that Rajputs were not forced to serve the Mughals but were very willing to cooperate. No effort was made to convert any of them. This inconvenient truth does not fit Hindutva ideology hence it is not surprising that the protest has been mainly in the BJP ruled states.

Let's stick to the known facts of history without ideological overlays.

Murad

#93 Ranjit

[As they say in IIT, take a flying f*ck.....so get lost and stay lost..... ]

Actually they say that EVERYWHERE - it is not something exclusive to IIT. Even if you got in on a quota, you should have known this.

Also remember, anger is a sign of fear or anxiety. You seem to be anxious about how other people perceive you. Why do you care what other people think about you? Just because you got in on a quota does not make you any less of a person. You can still say you are an IITan (if indeed you are). How would other people know that you got in on a quota? Eh?

I think you are worried for nothing.

Ajeya,

As they say in IIT, take a flying f*ck.....so get lost and stay lost.....

Re: Ranjit

Ranjit,

I have given you ample time to respond. You should have responded to me by now. If your furious googling returned no incriminating evidence against Ashoka, you could have posted a message saying "can't find any dirt on Ashoka, still googling" or some such thing.

But you did not. I have been polite to you. You have not reurned the favour. The result, I'm afraid is going to be this. I am going to be on your case on Chowk from now till eternity. Even if you change your name to something else, the intellectual footprint of a dumbed-down JNU-style forebrain would be hard to miss.

And you have only yourself to blame. What a pity!

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Re various on cast..

It is so ironic that the only aspect of the cast system that has not survived is the only aspect it originally had: division of labor. Everything that has been added on is still going on.

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Re: # 83
Ahmed...

Now I have respect for people who have gone to IIT college but most others are just nobodies. Same here only NED and lahore management science dept is great all other is just drama of education. Now even IIT has no value in world. I have only once gone to Foreign country a arab country very rich. They do not give damn to IIT ( it is truth bitter truth ). One arab philosopher professor said correctly " India's problem is always developing country all promise , just hot air". Most valued degree in arab world is Arab graduate from american univ with experience in usa. It does not matter about quality of college. Then european univs, then Egypt univ , then pakistan colleges and then IIT and no value for Gawar colleges from India. Any way I took wrong turn so let me return to main thing.

Ans: Ho ho ho ho.... Arab philosopher!!!...Nice oxymoron; and that will evaluate technical education!!!

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2 007/subject_rankings/technology

Search in Google Vyomesh Joshi, Padmashree Warrier, Arun Sarin etc...
Anyhow, why IIT grads will go to Arab for work (apart from money)? Do arabs have anything to do with technology?
In the entire middle east, Israel is the only country, which has better quality technical education than India....
Anyhow, coming back to the goodwill with Pakistan, India should definitely keep good relationship with all the countries. That is the way to increase it's business share...A good relationship with Pakistan will open up market in Pakistan, Iran and central asian states for Indian products (automobile, electrical goods etc...). India can compete with China in these countries. In this respect, India has already provided MFN status to Pakistan...little civilised behavior from Pakistan is expected...

The threat of Taliban should not overwhelm India. India is fighting insurgency in North East and Kashmir for decaded. So, Talibs will add little more on this list of problems, India is facing...
BTW, what prompted you to say USA will force India to comply with Pakistan? It is like threating an elephant with rabies infected dog....
USA is ready to transfer any technology to India to contain China. The Indo-USA neuclear deal and the respective NSG approval of supplying Uranium is not enough for you guys!!!
EADS and Boeing are ready to setup technology centres in Bangalore, if HAL co-operates with them. CPI(M) is opposing it for the sake of China (USA and EU does not sell key defence technology to China for human rights violation)...

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(It is porous and Taliban empire can start Jehadi fire all along and faithful armies can demolish traditional army.)

But before they come to India, they will come to your beloved Karachi. You may want to think about this.

(Also in near future as indian population goes up they need food, wheat,milk , oil seeds and only pakistan can provide in sufficient amount)

But Pak these days is unable to feed its own people.

Regards

Re: # 76
Ranjit...

Note that once hindus did get united and pulled together, albeit after conversion to sikhism, they were able to give a very strong answer to aggression. In fact, the sikhs went all the way to Ghazni, plundered the place and brought back the gates of Somnath temple that Ghaznavi had taken there.

Ans: Sikhism was not supposed to promote martial arts. It was the Mughal barbarism, which had prompted Guru Tegh Bahadur to adopt 5 Ks. Nanak had not proposed these 5 Ks.
When you are fighting with barbarians, you may need to be barbarian. But, does that create better society within your country?
Whatever Shivaji & Sikhs had done is like paying back these barbarians with the same coin (like Gujrat and Mumbai riots). But to do so, you divert some of the energy from creative to destructive space. I think, the basic purpose of a society should be to maintain minimum deterrence in military front. Use most of the resources to build better society.
Satyajit Ray directed one movie based on the story written by his grandpa...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goopy_Gyne_Bagha_Byne
If possible, please watch the movie...Halla and Shundi, two different states....

Re: # 80
Sha..
Scoundrel...was trying to bluff; when caught red handed, started using filthy language...

Re: # 71
Ranjit..

Ans: What I have said is FACT. The caste group was prevalent in most of the contemporary civilisations; not amongst the nomads. To sustain society and make progressive civilisation, you need similar social structure. We call it caste system, others might have used different terms. History says, using this social model, India was able to contribute huge amount in astronomy,mathematics, medical science etc...
Indian kings never felt it necessary to use large section of their population to engage is arms training and martial art. Any mature civilisation will not do that.
Last 50 years, USA is kind of model for modern civilisation; military super power, technology and science super-power. How many % of US population forms the army/navy/airforce? Do every citizen in USA are engaged in arms training? How many countries of UN security council trains their entire population to be ready for combat? Does it create better society within a country?
India is rich of natural resources. Civilisation matured quite early here. So, use of arms was mostly restricted to defend its territory and in some cases to expand their territory. It was not means for sustaining the society.
On the contrary, nomads (Mughals, Pathans etc...), those who have attacked India, were not self sustaining society. Entire clan had to take up arms to loot other's property or settle in India to enjoy the fruit of wealthy state. That is the reason, when Indian kings fought with each other, they have not touched the civilian infrastructure. Whereas, the western nomads destroyed most of the temples and palaces and looted their wealth.
Read the history of Athens and Sparta in ancient Greece. It will provide some insight, how Athens being the centre of excellence in almost all fields, was destroyed several times by Spartans.
India was never a single country before British take over. During Mahabharata, there were 16 countries (Mahajanapadas) in Northern India alone. Apart from that, Narmada/Tapti valley had created host of civilisations. Rajputs were devided into several kingdoms. In Ganga valley Kanauj, Magadh etc... were different kingdoms ( part of 16 mahajanapadas). South of Vindhyas Karnat, Kanchi, Vijaynagar, Kalinga were duferent countries. It is this kind of division, which was reason for external invaders to conquer one by one. When these small kingdoms united under a single big ruler, India was able to defend. Story of Maurya and Nanda empire is proof of that.
Regarding Shivaji, it was necessary for the Marathas at that time to unite and take up arms to kick out moslems. The situation was not that grim, when Rajputs fought external invaders. Muhammed Ghori lost the first battle of Tarain. During the second battle, Ghori attacked at night and poisoned elephants of Prithviraj, Jaichand ( Pritviraj's father in law) helped him in this act of sabotage...
In this age of fast information flow, common people comes to know about a lot of stuff. So, it is easy to bring nationalism etc.. now. How much information people were aware of during 1962 war with China? How many volunteers Indian armed forces have received to fight along with them?
Society is jigshaw puzzle. The smaller the pieces, it produces finer results. But it is easy to destroy also...
Anyhow, I will prefer not to blame caste system as THE reason for India's military downfall...