Akbar and Alexander

Mr. Ajey,
You can think what Mr. Ranjit wrote. Here only rational and mature and with wisdom from India are firstly DM followed by Ranjit. He has written correct ,India need to support pakistan ( indirectly without making noise as it will be akward situation for GOP and GOI also). Pakistan is leader of Ummah and if you want good relationship with Ummah the road is through Pakistan. Pakistni Tabliban is on loose and have captured territory and they have following amoung general people. As its hard to have good opinion about corrouption soaked and corrouption dripping all politicians. ( little corrouption is fine if it helps to run nation as then its lubrication, some times I explained difference corrouption and Lubrication). Pakistan is keeping Pakistani Taliban at bay and battling fanatics. The situation is not promising as where it counts , the border areas Talibans control land and army controls air. It will good gesture of India to give kashmir valley with damage compension as then there will good will amoung people of Pakistan. Then only problems of Junagarh, Nizam state ( hyderbad Deccan) can be solved in give and take fashion. Till India does not make neighbour friend it is doomed. We may not be strong but USA and china depend on us to keep India downsized. Whenever you try to climb we can pull ladder and you will fall down and cannot make progress.

Now I have respect for people who have gone to IIT college but most others are just nobodies. Same here only NED and lahore management science dept is great all other is just drama of education. Now even IIT has no value in world. I have only once gone to Foreign country a arab country very rich. They do not give damn to IIT ( it is truth bitter truth ). One arab philosopher professor said correctly " India's problem is always developing country all promise , just hot air". Most valued degree in arab world is Arab graduate from american univ with experience in usa. It does not matter about quality of college. Then european univs, then Egypt univ , then pakistan colleges and then IIT and no value for Gawar colleges from India. Any way I took wrong turn so let me return to main thing.
Talibans are hard nosed people and they have all time of ages and they have good ground feeling as Major Pavo said. Hope he returns and gives good commentary on things. They can just wait and strike at will and if american exit and dollar pipe lins dries taliban will be happy. Then they will come out and start threatening civilised city and urban areas. They do not believe in borders. On non technicality of treaty expiring they want all areas west of Sindhu River. Now you little people think "big" about kashmir and boundary, while durand line of thousand miles id disputed boundary like loc. It is porous and Taliban empire can start Jehadi fire all along and faithful armies can demolish traditional army. When they rule your pipeline gas will be cut and they will put put 3 million Jehadis on India border with oneway ticket to India , how India can manage 3 million Jehadis with light but effective weapons and with atom bomb carrying rockets. This taliban will be mercyless and Chengiz will look moderate. As mr. Ranjit said before punjabi's are pragmatic people and they do not give damn to rulers . They do not care about anything specially fanticism if it is going to get hole in pocket. So I agree with Ranjit india needs to bend little and develop good will . Also in near future as indian population goes up they need food, wheat,milk , oil seeds and only pakistan can provide in sufficient amount and packaged foods. Now all indian construction depends on cement from here. Same way in almost all food categories Pakiustn can be great wheat,and food grains growing region of India beyond Indian borders.Otherway all real pakistani cultured has sunk under weight of Bollywood smuggled imports. Pakistan can supply India cheap energy natural gas from pipelines going from central and arab, Irani lands with big G as staring point for 3000 miles journey to china. Pakistan can supply good refined gas and value added products of great hydrocabon as a worlds largest enery Transmission controllers.
If India wants to help it poor starving citizen then they have to come to pakistan with generous mind and mood. Please note America+ China+ Pakistan axis is quite formidibale which destroyed russia and socialism and India is too weak country and feeble people to withstand pressure from axis based of mutual respect and self interest. Planning to hurt Pakistan is short cut to disaster and destruction of India. Good day.

#80 Shah2

[The only way to talk to you 'A gay A' And nkg(gandu )at your putrid level you rat worshipping rat themselves,penis monkey worshipping dark madrasi heng smelling pea brain retard turd is all code coolie is that you can say for your self ! ]

My my... What language! What would your mothers say!

#79 treetop

[I am always on the treetop watching insects like you on the ground. ]

Pedophile-worshipping worms watching insects? Hmmmm.... Isn't your time better spent trolling for underage kids?

The only way to talk to you 'A gay A' And nkg(gandu )at your putrid level
you rat worshipping rat themselves,penis monkey worshipping dark madrasi heng smelling pea brain retard turd is all code coolie is that you can say for your self !

Re: # 78 ajey
I am always on the treetop watching insects like you on the ground.

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#76 Ranjit

[So why were hindus utterly unable or unwilling to defend themselves as hindus but were perfectly capable of giving a strong response as sikhs? That goes towards my argument about the problems with our society as hindus. ]

Since you are logged in right now, would you be so kind as to give me a response to my polite question? That would be my post #74.

Thanking you,

Sincerely,

Ajeya

Kaal,

I understand what you are saying. But consider the events a 1000 years back. Ghaznavi comes over and sacks Somnath temple slaughtering thousands. Then he leaves his representatives to govern Punjab. Why wouldnt the rest of Indian kings get together and unite to expel him? Why wouldnt all hindus feel strongly enough to pick up arms and retaliate?

Note that once hindus did get united and pulled together, albeit after conversion to sikhism, they were able to give a very strong answer to aggression. In fact, the sikhs went all the way to Ghazni, plundered the place and brought back the gates of Somnath temple that Ghaznavi had taken there.

So why were hindus utterly unable or unwilling to defend themselves as hindus but were perfectly capable of giving a strong response as sikhs? That goes towards my argument about the problems with our society as hindus.

#69 Eklavya

[ajeya, are you going to address yourself ONLY to congenitally objective people? There are very very few people of that kind.]

This is unfortunately the truth. But I don't come on Chowk to pass the time chatting. In fact, I am so short of time nowadays that even the few minutes I spend on Chowk are becoming prohibitive. It does not matter to me if idiots perceive me as an idiot. I have too much contempt for them to waste time thinking about their emotional state.

There is a game you find in entertainment parks in the US. There is a board with a number of holes, and little puppets pop up from different holes at random. They give you a hammer to bang the puppets on the heads the moment they pop out. You play against someone else, and whoever bangs in the most number of puppets within a fixed period of time, wins. My visits to Chowk are like that. Clueless idiots with pet theories unsupported by facts, raise their ugly heads at random. It is a pleasure to hammer those idiot heads right back into whatever hole they came from.

Of course, I realize that just as in that game, these idiots never learn from their failure to support their own theories, and pop back up again after a while. So there is really no overall objective to this game I play on Chowk - idiots always stay idiots. It is just the pleasure of hammering them on the heads with logic and facts, and watching them disappear for a while, that makes it worth it. And like all games, it really does not accomplish anything.

#72 Ranjit

[Please carry on playing the victim card.]

Ranjit,

I'll try this just once with you.

Okay, so let's suppose I am the scum of the earth, and you are a level-headed, rational human being.

Now that that is behind us, I am hereby REQUESTING you, IN A CIVIL MANNER, to kindly put up your evidence - in the way of REFERENCES, that proves that Ashoka killed millions of civilians.

You have said a lot of things, and made many theoretical statements, about many things. I will not hold that against you provided you do the decent thing, and put up the evidence.

Because you are presumably an objective person, I hope you will not insult my intelligence and refuse to provide the evidence. I'll wait for your response.

As you have pointed out already, I am an uncivil person, and naturally you don't want me to do what comes naturally to me, and treat you in an uncivil manner. So kindly provide the evidence. I'm sure you would not want to provoke me by not doing so.

(I want a proper reference, not a UNREFERENCED paragraph from wikipedia)


Thank you.

Ranjit, one possible explanation is that there was no 'nationalism' then just as there was little religionism.

Kings did their things - maintained political and civil control, did some good (or bad) if they could for their peoples, but generally left the common man alone, even in wars. "What difference does it make to us, who the king is?" was the more general populace's attitude. People moved about reasonably freely, being bothered by only a few spies when they passed over to new 'states.'

It shouldn't mean that the place was not developed. It was. (There is an excellent map of some of the ancient cities here - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/EpicIndiaCities.jpg). But people had evolved a culture that did not consider one state to be fundamentally different from another state - enough to be exclusively identified with(just as one religious path not all that different from another path - not enough to be collectively identified with).

All these things broke down with the arrival of Islam first, and Europeans later.

(It's quite possible that the caste system had a significant role in promoting that view. People saw themselves primarily not as citizens of this or that state, or of this or that religion, but by their assumed role in society - a brahmin seeing himself as a priest or a teacher, a vaisya as a trader and so on.)

Ajeya,

Please carry on playing the victim card.

It is easy to blame external aggression since that is convenient and provides a good emotional trip for a while. What is the big deal in blaming exteranal aggressors anyway? Is it surprising that they attacked us, slaughtered us and enslaved us? What did you expect them to do? Join hands and sing cumbaya with the natives?

Its far more challenging to honestly analyze root causes of our downfall, how vast millions of people were subjugated to external imperial rule for centuries and how do we prevent this to happen again in our future generations. Thats a difficult conversation since one has to admit to one's own shortcomings first.

Also DO NOT use obscenities in your interactions with me. I can get down to that level too and tear you apart but I would prefer to keep things civil.

Re:nkg - "Caste system is not the source of India's downfall."

This is really laughable. Who know how the caste system started and what were its noble intentions regarding division of labor. The fact is that it led to severe perversions in Indian society and destroyed any semblence of India having an egalitarian society. I am sure you will have no interest in swapping castes with a lower caste person, even today when it might actually give you a benefit of reservations.

As far as you saying that only Kshatriyas were supposed to fight external enemies, it is again an amazing assertion. My friend, when an invader takes over your country, every able bodied man and woman needs to jump in and defend their country. Even if the army fails, people should form guerilla forces and attack and attack the invaders till they are thrown out. Shivaji is a perfect example. Just look at other countries in the world that got conquered. Any self-respecting people would fight back by creating a resistance movement. It is sad that Indian society would withstand centuries of imperial rule without any mass scale resistance. That is a telling indictment of our society. It has nothing to do with lack of courage since I believe that all humans are same. It is just that the social structure was such that it was not worth fighting for. Large numbers of people belonging to lower castes or backward castes did not care who ruled them since they never had a share of the spoils to begin with.

eklavya#63:

One should never underestimate the emotional appeal of "Pakistan ka matalab kya?" for Pakistanis, not just the establishment.

nkg, the only reason one can have reservations against the caste system is that it hurt people and went against our own basic ethical ideas. If one 'fixs things' merely for political reasons then one is not fixing them at all - only being opportunistic at a time and place. So I don't think of it as a political issue but a moral and ethical one.

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ajeya, are you going to address yourself ONLY to congenitally objective people? There are very very few people of that kind.

#57 Eklavya

[ajay bro, this technique of quickly personalizing opinions should be left to those who lack arguments. Else, others have good reason and right to throw the same back at you. This kind of dialogue helps no one.

Yaar, you, ranjit bhai, I, and everyone else knows how frustrating it is to run up against differences of opinion based on what we feel are just dogmatic beliefs. But so long as people share the same goals, we can't afford to destroy conversations by insinuating something is wrong with the other person.

(take this advice in the right spirit, man, coming as it does from a very senior citizen - or from someone who feels like one today).]

Co-liberal to the rescue!

Listen, it does not matter if I am the biggest scum on earth.

To an objective person it should ONLY matter that I am able to back up my arguments about Muslims, and Ranjit is not.

It will not escape the notice of OBJECTIVE people that this Ranjit character is UNABLE to provide ANY references to back up his Ashoka story.

There is a reason (an OBJECTIVE reason) that I feel like cursing these holier-than-thou self-glorifying m*****f*****s.