Akbar and Alexander

#56 Ranjit

[Are you a Kashmiri pundit or a Maharashtrian brahmin? Only those people are as fanatical as you are.]

Listen, JNU-clone garbage. Marthi brahmins or Kashmiri Pandits never killed anybody. Your Islamic m.f brothers did.

The surest sign of fanaticism is when people tend to avoid objective discussions, and prefer to call the opponent names. As an example, you were unable to give refernces to Ashoka killing civilians, but don't mind using this piece of unreferenced fabrication to defend your Musla buddies.

[So you think hindus never committed any atrocities against each other, Ashoka's slaughter of civilians is fabricated and caste system was an INTERNAL matter?]

It's not important what I think. What is important is that you are unable to provide any historical refernces in this regard. And I have provided dozens, and could provide many dozen more.

[No wonder India is so screwed up. People like you make sure that we will always remain a divided and conquered society.]

No. Cowardly traitors like you will make sure that India remains a country where Muslas can use their divisive politics, constant violence and continuous complaining to convert take away the peace of all Indians.

Re: # 65
Ekalavya...

nkg, problems start when we get into comparing different societies using specific metrices and deliberate mischaracterization.

Ans: I have no hate for Mongols/Pathans or nomands. Most of the human (for that matter creatures) is influenced by God/nature. Where nature is generous, people have built excellent civilisation and become more sophisticated and lenient. Most of the great civilisations were built around river and based on agriculture. I consider nomadic life is little inferior to the settled life. But that does not make them object of hate.
Coming to caste system, it was prevalent in every civil society. It was part of social evolution. The way it is presented today, specially in political context, it was not so, when it was originated. The brahmins confined knowledge of Vedas with them, as it was required that time. It was supposed to be maintained in pure form to avoid distortion. Now, with advanced logistic support,everything changed and we have started condemning our own past, without trying to understand, where,when and how we have deviated...

In Europe, Swastika means Hitler. Is it so? I will tell (from Da Vinci Code), most of our probems are derived from "historical distortions", and the present form, which is represented to us. Caste system is not the source of India's downfall. It is the deviation from discipline, India is suffering for.

nkg, problems start when we get into comparing different societies using specific metrices and deliberate mischaracterization. So let's ignore other societies and claims entirely, and focus only the Indian society. Let's compare ourselves to ourselves - with what we could have done differently, IF we could hypothetically re-live that collective life.

A LOT of what you argue - about task specialization, about inter-caste mobility, about people's own perception, and about societal stability - is true. And one can also accept that people doing menial work are pretty much damned everywhere.

IMHO, we went wrong somewhere along the way when specialization became endogamous (as dm ji has explained) and got further mixed up with untouchability.

Indians had alawys been obsessed with 'cleanliness' and extensive untouchability was practised even within homes - without taking bath (or under all kinds of conditions) you couldn't touch this or that, or enter the kitchen, or touch an elder, and so on, even if you were a family member. This idea got badly deformed when it got associated with whole groups of people for all times.

That created severe disadvantages for the 'untouchables'. (Again, no comparisons across societies). When people got defined as untouchables, they were deliberately kept away from most social intercourse, and deprived of opportunities more comprehensively than would have been the case with any simple stratification system (Again, I am making no comparisons across societies).

If you look at ancient (Indian ancient is real old) literature, accounts of Chinese travellers, for instance, there is no mention of untouchability. When untouchability began the number of 'untouchabales' was probably small, so someone had to be a chandala to be untouchable in Shankara's time. This ailment grew with greater group specialization and forced segregation (I am speculating here).

Untouchability was wrong because it restricted and demeaned the individual far too severely by OUR OWN STANDARDS and by OUR OWN MORAL LIGHTS. Nothing could bring that point home more clearly and tellingly than the fact of shankara falling at the chandala's feet and begging forgiveness (in ancient days), and Baba Sahib's great life and contributions to our national life (in more modern times), inspite of all the charges that some have (understandably but not very generously) levied against him.

In both these cases, we see India rising above its mistakes (as also with the gradual empowerment of 'lower castes' today).


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dm ji, ranjit makes a sharp distinction between Pakistani people and establishment, and between Pakistani people and Jihadis/Talibanis. He sees Pakistani people as Hindusque, who have a natural affinity for Hindus, instead of for Talibanis and for Pakistani establishment. In this view, the latter two follow unfriendly ties against Hindus against the will of Pakistani people, and that too, only because of Kashmir. Given a chance, Pakistani people will throw out the dual yoke of Pakistani establishment and Talibanis, and will join hands with Hindus to create an overall Hindusque way of life for everyone.

It's just different perception. Yet, IMO, ranjit might agree that whatever the case and reality, it might be better to focus on one's own defense, relying not the least on anyone else.

Perhaps the difference is that he also wants to go and actually help what he sees as Hindusque elements in Pakistan as a form of defense. So long as we/he allow(s) for the possibility that one's assessment of others may not be entirely accurate, and one is willing to assume all attendant risks, there should be no problem.

Ranjit#53:

India cannot depend upon Pakistan to defend itself against Taleban. I agree with you that Indians should not rejoice at external enemies weakening Pakistan. But if Pakistanis want to have a taleban-type govt., it's their right and privilege to do so. India's defence is India's responsibility and it should be prepared for all eventualities, including the possibility of a taleban type govt. there. In any case, I am doubtful if a taleban govt. would be any more hostile to India than the Pakistani establishment has been for most of that country's existence.

Regarding the caste system, you are right that a soft division was there in all societies (even today, you have occupation-origin names like Carpenter, Silversmith, Goldsmith, etc.). The crucial difference was the endogamous nature of the caste system, which prevented inter-caste mobility.

Re: # 61
Ranjit...

Today our society is changing and people feel for the country because they have a stake in it. In the past, that was not the case. So when some joker rode in with his army from the north-west, only a few people put up a fight. Most people didnt give a shit, or worse converted. Thats why we got screwed.

Ans: I don't think it is matter of stake etc...It is the duty of army/kshatriyas, who are supposed to fight and they have fought. If China attacks India, will you go to battle field? No. It will be left to the military administration to recruit more people, collect ammunition and fight. We will pay extra tax. This is the way civilisation evolved. Now look at barbaric/nomadic societies (like Talibs /Afghans). They have no social divistion as they don't bother about society building. Every child are trained to loot, kill etc...
Like people working in Central Ordinance Factories in modern days,the job of blacksmiths was to manufacture better ammunition and they were engaged in that. They were not skilled or meant to fight external enemy. Shivaji ( like present day Israel) had broken this social structure and used to train every citizen in military skill. That had bourne some fruit in driving moslems away.
India lost wars, not due to internal social problem. Rather, it was the infighting between states, that has caused downfall. Whenever the Indian empire grown very large ( Maurya, Nanda etc..) external enemy failed to enter India. Alexander was stopped at the border of Nanda empire...Regarding Prithviraj Chauhan, he had defeated Muhammed Ghori in the first battle and even let him off (P O W). During the second battle, Muhammed Ghori attacked at night, which is against rule of battle at that time...

The converstion is something different. Some people, for personal gain migrate to different countries. They are of similar category of people who convert for gains.

Re: # 61
Ranjit...

Ans: Your perception of "generation by generation" is totally wrong. People used to throw out brahmins from their caste ( out-caste) for wrong doings...Bidur's mother was from lower caste; but he was not treated badly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VW3abjIUgQ

The logistic support available at that time made it convenient for the next generation to adopt the same profession as that of parents. That is the way you learn the skill and even able to enhance it. People of same profession used to stay together to exchange their ideas and take their respective profession to higher level. This is called specialization and this model is preferred in almost all the societies. In Bengal there used to be locality based on profession called Kumor-para ( locality of potters), Chhutor-para(locality of carpenters)...
Caste system had created segmented society. But that was required...
You are looking into the caste system from the present social system. In my college (it is not IIT but mother of first IIT;IIT Kgp.
http://www.becs.ac.in), freshers used to be kept based on departments. ECE and CS people in the same room. CS and ECE people share common syllabus for first couple of years...
When brahmins started cheating other's using false ( in the guise of "God will be pleased if you do so") rituals, the society started crumbling...Caste system had not created exploitive society; otherwise it would have been destroyed long back. It had succeded in creating excellent advancements in medical science, literature, metallurgy, architecture, mathematics etc...A society can not prosper without good administrative model...
Regarding menial workers/blue color workers; their fate is similar everywhere...

Re:nkg#59

Are you seriously comparing IIT engineering disciplines with the caste system? Are you delusional? I mean seriously dude, when I was in IIT Delhi, the CS guys used to look down on Mechanical Engineering (my discipline). But I can assure you that the CS guys didnt mind sharing the hostel mess tables with me at meal times. Sheesh!!

And no, I was not a SC-ST candidate, unlike what Ajeya might think.

Seriously though, every society has merit based divisions. No doubt about that. However, in other societies, that division is a SOFT division. People can move back and forth between professions and are not trapped in it by birth. That is the biggest weakness of the caste system. An entire group of people is condemned to do the same kind of menial work for generations no matter how much IQ that person has. That was the pernicious nature of the system. And it devastated India since it removed any incentives for people to defend their country and way of life. Most people were not stakeholders. Today our society is changing and people feel for the country because they have a stake in it. In the past, that was not the case. So when some joker rode in with his army from the north-west, only a few people put up a fight. Most people didnt give a shit, or worse converted. Thats why we got screwed.

I am amazed that I even need to explain this to you, assuming that you have anything to do with IITs.....

Re: # 54
Ranjit...

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians.

Ans: I have serious doubt about this statement. Total casualty in Nandi Dev's side was around 100000. It was battle, not invastion of country. The place of the battle was Dhauli. Ashoka had not plundered/looted. The opponent, Nandidev had more than 60000 infantry (may be around 70000). I will try to find the proper information.

Re: # 54
Ranjit...

The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented.

Ans: This is your perception, based on current social problems. The caste system was not imposed upon. Neither it was something, so called secular historians try to say as, imposed by aryans. Can you please explain the barbarism attached to caste system? Separating society based on skill and type of work ( specialisation) still exists. That way you have to tell the "barbaric" system IITs follow to separate Civil, Mechanical, Mettalurgy, Computer Science engineering...Each caste group used to live harmoniously for long time (close to 1000 years, without fighting with each other). Does not that prove that, there was no better alternative? Hope, you will answer...

Ajeya,
Pay attention to what Eklavya and Ranjit are saying .you have been nurturing hatred for too long and it has taken your shanti away.

"Do you have any kind of family connections..."

"Are you a dalit or something...."

ajay bro, this technique of quickly personalizing opinions should be left to those who lack arguments. Else, others have good reason and right to throw the same back at you. This kind of dialogue helps no one.

Yaar, you, ranjit bhai, I, and everyone else knows how frustrating it is to run up against differences of opinion based on what we feel are just dogmatic beliefs. But so long as people share the same goals, we can't afford to destroy conversations by insinuating something is wrong with the other person.

(take this advice in the right spirit, man, coming as it does from a very senior citizen - or from someone who feels like one today).

Ajeya,

Are you a Kashmiri pundit or a Maharashtrian brahmin? Only those people are as fanatical as you are. So you think hindus never committed any atrocities against each other, Ashoka's slaughter of civilians is fabricated and caste system was an INTERNAL matter?

No wonder India is so screwed up. People like you make sure that we will always remain a divided and conquered society.

#54 Ranjit

[Please read the following reference on Ashoka's Kalinga war -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians. ]

I just did.

It is said that in the aftermath of the Battle of Kalinga the Daya River running next to the battle field turned red with the blood of the slain; about 100,000 Kalinga civilians and more than 10,000 of Ashoka's own warriors were among those slain.


There is no reference given in wikipedia for that section. Any pedophile-follower could have edited it to prove that their cult is not so bad after all. I have never heard of such a thing in my life. And anyway, WHAT were the "100,000 civilians" doing next to the battlefield?

Show me actual references.

[The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented. It didnt result in physical death but it systematically broke down the backbone of Indian society by totally fragmenting us.]

Muslims like talking about the caste system. The caste system is our INTERNAL issue. WHY is it such a problem with them? It's like saying, you guys have a bad caste system - so it's okay to kill you guys.

Also, this Chowk seems to be INFESTED with "low-caste" Hindus. Are you someone with "low-caste" hangups? Because equating Hindu casteism to Muslims killing Hindus would tend to point to that. Are you a "dalit" or something?

Ajeya,

Please read the following reference on Ashoka's Kalinga war -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians.

I dont want to minimize the atrocities of the muslim invaders by any means. Ghaznavi, Ghauri and others were scum of the earth. However, they didnt have a monopoly on barbarism. The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented. It didnt result in physical death but it systematically broke down the backbone of Indian society by totally fragmenting us.

Re:Eklavya#41 - "Ranjit, so Pakistanis will protect Indians from Talibanis because Indians and Pakistanis are ek hi ghar ke log ("share a similar way of life"), and unlike Indians, Talibanis are an alien threat to Pakistanis?"

Kaal, it is true that the Pakistani establishment created the Taliban as a proxy force to use for their imperial ambitions in Afghanistan and perhaps Kashmir. However, the Taliban has moved out of Pak control and has become an independent entity that has taken over large parts of the tribal areas and baluchistan. The Taliban goal is to take over Pakistan and implement their version of a shariah state. Essentially they want to change the way of life in Pakistan which is still quite open and liberal (almost hinduesque) into a ghastly version of Islamic society as per their vision.

Therefore, the transformational impact on Pakistan of a Taliban takover would be comparable to the transformational impact of a Ghaznavi takeover of the hindushahis a millenium back, in terms of the magnitude of change. Just because we have a feud with the Pak establishment over Kashmir, doesnt mean we should ignore this very real threat in our neighborhood. Imagine if these forces take over Pakistan, alter the lifestyle there and then threaten Armageddon with India using nukes!!

The good thing is that unlike a thousand years back, we have the US involved in the matter. The US understands the gravity of the situation and is actively working to shore up Pakistan against this nightmare. No wonder the jihadis in Pakistan are fuming, ranting and raving against the US. Their grand vision is getting destroyed. However, dont think for a moment that the jihadis have forgotten about India. If the US ever withdraws and Pakistan falls, their next target will be New Delhi.

Hence it is in India's self-interest to collaborate with the US and liberal elements in the Pak establishment to help out in the war against jihadis. It may not be military support but can be non-military support in terms of cooling down Indo-Pak issues, opening up trade and travel etc.

Re: # 34
Shah...

Ranavir Sena Vs. Naxal is mostly due to land holding. It has nothing to do with caste. The land dispute is causing the problem.Poor land reforms in the region is largely responsible for this tussle.
A muslim killing other's because he does not believe that Muhammed was prophet or quoran, is Islamic killing. The blashphemy law in Pakistan or killing of Theo Van Gogh etc...are islamic killing.