Akbar and Alexander

Dear ajeya, Elavya, Nkg, guru,Ranjit and others

I have heeded your desire for REFERENCES but as it is a long reply have sent it as another article to Chowk that i expect will be up in a few days.

These are not references from Romila Thapar or JNU scholars but mostly from Brahmin sources. Remember that there are no final words to history and many very good and many very bad things were done by all races, rulers and religions in their pursuit of power so please keep an open mind.

Murad

Re: # 140
Murad:

I think you will be better off writing a book on history of car salesmanship than history of India, hinduism or Islam in India.

You have written good books on the subject, I believe.

Just my feelings.

Kamath

Re: # 110
Murad...
Ans: Nice mixure of history with fiction best adopted by JNU liars...

There is no proof of destruction of Budhdhist monasteries by Shashanka (the King of Goud). All these stories from the Harshavardhana side. Shashanka's kingdom was spread from Malda (Bihar -Bengal border) to much of Bangladesh and eastern Orissa. Murad Baig,site one example of such conversion and destruction. Better look at the islamic barbarism there in Adina Mosque...The temple converted into a mosque....

A myth is created that, Puri temple was Budhdhist monastary and Brahmins (most of the Brahmins in West Bengal and Orissa are from Kanauj) forecfully taken over from them. And some people use Swami Vivekananda's remark to prove that...
Kanauji brahmins to establish Oriya God, (jagganath)forecfully evicted Budhdhists!!!! Too much....

Re: # 119
Ekalavya...

There were no Hindus then, and presumably not just brahmins could have carried out such mass extirmination of Buddhists.

Ans: Ho ho ho ho...Do you believe in this theory of extermination?
These Romilla thapar ,moslems ( & liars) like Irphan Habibs just presents such concocted stories to prevent backlash against muslims...Go to Thirupati temple, Kashi Vishwanath Temple, Mathura ...
Indians were never violent against Budhdhists. Some brahmins disagreed to loose power. They used to influence kings to extract money and prove Budhdhists wrong. Majority of the people assimilated with some of the budhdhist and jain philosphy; budhdhism lost its identity in India. During puranic age, Budhdha was accepted as avatar of Vishnu....
Why Budhdhism survived in indo-china, china and japan for long time?
Because they have formed their own type of Budhdhism and were able to transfer Indian knowledge to these areas....

The monastic structure, tonsuring, bhikshu etc. concept originated from budhdhism and adopted in mainstream...
Now, none of school history books talks about islamic barbarism in India, destruction of education system, stagnation in all fields like (medical science, mathematics etc...)...
That scoundrel Akber, who Mr. Murad claims great, tried to distort indian philosphy by creating whole new Upanishad "Allopanishad" and merge with Atharva Veda!!!! What a rotten shit!!!! And you see Joker Naik, the GREAT Phlosopher,claims that the Vedas mentioned about Muhammed and allah...

muradbaig#140:

Sir, I had no problem with your article. You derailed the discussion by your post#110 and then could not give satisfactory answers to any of the questions raised by me and others. And now, you may derail the discussion further into what is India, what were people's religious practices and who ruled when and other issues.

Re: # 141
Khas kum jahan pak.

Re: # 140:

Indians, don't waste your time on these web sites. A grain of action goes farther than a mountain of discussion. Action can lead to integrity which is needed for peace. Peace/Shanti will give you the bliss ie right thought at right time. Visit goodbewsindia.com

We are in the age of very fast technological change. Which might be frightening if we deal with it serially and discretely as trained by MCaulay system. Murad Babu is a creature brought up in this abuse to get BA (Hon) in some subject.

Have trust! We do not need to read more learn about some Cyrus guy. We would rather care about how Dr. Patil created Cirrus Logic logic, his 84 year old Dad developed Devnagiri font in 1989.

Ask yourself how many patents you developed this month. How many new employees you hired this month? To sustain that growth you will realize dissolution of ego or Ananda.

Please try to understand that history is much more than books alone. The things in the past were very different from our perspectives today. Our wonderful history was not limited to the geographic boundaries of where the British and other colonialists stuck their flags so there is absolutely no point in arguing if Panini was Indian or Pakistani. If Gandhari of the Mahabharat came from Gandahar it does not make her Afghan. And our history may cover the whole of central Asia long before legends became embedded into the huge baggage of myths that all priests incorporated into all religions as they evolved.

The `religion' of all these people was neither Hinduism or Islam that were of much more recent origin. There was mostly anamist tribal worship of local deities that is still very widely practiced. The rulers were mainly Buddhist for 1000 years from Ashoka to Harshavardhan with the exception of a short 147 year Gupta period in a part of North India. The Rulers were mostly Muslim from the 12th to 18th Century and then British for 200 years. So India had never been a Hindu country till 1947.

The word Hindu had earlier beeen just a geographic expression meaning the natives of the land of the Sindhu (or Hindu as Cyrus the Great had defined in the 6th century BC). It was anly used as the name for a religion after Ram Mohun Roy just 200 years ago. And as a Religion there were huge differences between the Hinduism of the Vedas, the Puranas and in other periods.

This Article is about the characters of two great but imperfect Emperors and we need to get back to that theme.

Murad

Yaar, it's not fair to pile on baig sahib. One can perfectly well expect that many Indian kings etc, in their wars, destroyed whatever religious iconery/temples/stupas etc of their political foes. And in political fights, people of different groups, including between buddhists and non-buddhists (since there were no Hindus then) suffered.

What is unlikely is that people were extirpated and killed en masse, across large parts of India, in the name of religion or for their religious beliefs per se - definitely not for buddhist beliefs.

May be it happened, but is quite unlikely. And if baig sahib shows us how and when that happened - mass killings of buddhists for following the Buddha (instead of being brahmins and kshatriyas, for example), leading to extinction of Buddhism from almost everywhere in India - that will be a great service to every one.

#124 muradbaig

[For references and bibliography read my book:

REFLECTIONS IN A SACRED POND]

Of course. I guessed as much...

If you have the time to be posting long posts on Chowk, you definitely have the time to defend your assertions with specific references - just mention your point, and also the book/article etc. that validates it.

Reading through your whole book, finding out where you made those points, and then crosschecking against your bibliography is a mammoth task.

Put up your evidence or admit that you have none.

Muradbaig

"For references and bibliography read my book"
Earlier I asked you for references (page number/article) when you wrote similar unsubstantiated research in your "India unvarnished" article. I have no intention of spending money on your book. Would you be kind enough to provide good references?

PS: Meahwhile also do a time-line study of Adi Shankra, and Angkorwat temples and explain how Buddhists were able to take over hindu temples 3 centuries after Shankara.

Re: # 135

"2. The Nehruvian period which berated the Hindu religion (much of it well deserved!) and presented Muslim rule as benevolent towards Hindus?
"

First of all there is no such thing as Hindu religion. It was all hypocritical. Was ever Sanatan Dharma taught or studied? How many studied patanjali Yoga Sutra, Bhagwad Geeta, Vashishta Geeta and Katho Upanishad. We all missed on that. Instead of history we should have relied on Itihaas.

muradbaig#124:

"many people are also guided by well sanitized school history books"


Which sanitised history books are you referring to:

1. The British period school texts which exaggerated Black Hole and downplayed "Sepoy Mutiny"?
2. The Nehruvian period which berated the Hindu religion (much of it well deserved!) and presented Muslim rule as benevolent towards Hindus?
3. The short-lived Manohar Joshi rewrite which demonised Muslims? or
4. The latest arjun-singh rewrite?

From the demographics of Indian chowkies, most of them would have been taught the second version.

Muradbaig:

"For references and bibliography read my book"


So, you are your own reference. That's really impressive!


You did not answer the question:Why is there no embedded memory of such savagery among Hindus, Buddhists and Jains?


guru:

The metallurgy pillar is not the kutub minar, it is called the Ashoka pillar, located next to the qutub minar.

Re: # 132: So Paki own Panini? Do you name Sahitya Academy in his honor? How many PhDs dissertations on him and his grammar?

Pakis are middle-eastern by choice. Why don't you vacate the occupied land of present day Pakistan and head back to Mecca?

Re: # 131
You may have few one hit wonders in 5000 years of history.remember panini was from attock,learn some geography.

Doon Boy,

Old game of dividing people Brahmin and Non-Brahmin is up! If Narayan Murthy and Aziz Premji can deliver then nobody cares about their caste of today or yesterday.

If you want to be historian then find out when rest of the world was still on tree tops how, why and who developed metallurgy of what we call today Kutub minar, where lived Panini the first grammarian who was Bhaskaracharya's gurus. That would help India more.

Re: # 129: This history was probably not taught to you.

"The British won India, not from the Mughals, but from the Hindus. Before we appeared as conquerers, the Mughal Empire had broken up. Our conclusive wars were neither with the Delhi King, nor with his revolted governers, but with two Hindu confideracies, the Marathas and the Sikhs." p. 317 in the The Imperial Gazetteer of India. http://books.google.com/books?id=bdYMAAAAIAAJ.

Between the Mughal rule in Paki Punjab and the British rule, there was Khalsa raaj. Paki geography is shaped by this khalsa raj, for without it they would not have NWFP nor would India have Kashmir. Pakis are not unaware of this, though they would make every attempt to deny it. They consider loss to the British more palatable than the accursed Hindus.

Re: # 127
1971 is an exception not a rule.an idiot can tell you that it was impossible for pakistan to fight a war that was 1000 miles away from home and that the entire population of bengalis was against them.Even than i am man enough to give you credit for your success.

"Muslim: i came i saw i conquered.
Hindu: i saw i layed down i opened my legs."

Is 1971 history for you? 97K layed down on the back and opened all the orifices to take the load. In 1999 the load was taken while skiing down the hill. From 1947 you have been laying down and taking the Umriki load both day and night. Little correction from 62 you are taking in the night Chini load. Mind also that most of the fights for Delhi were between Muslims. Muslims were laying down.

Guess you wont understand! Still living on treetop. How do you lay down on the treetop?

Guru ji Baig sahab:
There is no need to exchange lessons in history.history is simple like this:
Muslim: i came i saw i conquered.
Hindu: i saw i layed down i opened my legs.
Thank you.

It's
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/t_es/t_es_agraw_kerala.htm

Re: # 124:

Most of us did not study History and do not need to. Thank Allah/Jesus for that. I would rather study Lilawati's proof of Pythogorus theorem, what and how Shivaji implemented anti-feudalism by stopping "watan" system, how he gave sword to every one including Brahmins and Mahars, how Warkari Sampradaya brought people together (including Marathi Muslims) etc. I would rather try to find the reason for development of Calculus in Kerala in Mathas ... was there similar develpments in other parts of India, who were the architects and Vastu architects of different temples, Rajput palaces and Taj Mahal. http://ashvinsblog.blogspot.com/2007/01/calculus-from-kerala.html
http://www.in finityfoundation.com/mandala/t_es/t_es_agraw_kerala.htm

Isms and religion is a recent concept. India had Sanatan Dharma. Budha worked within this Dharma (Sanskrit) to remove the deterioration/corruption. At that time Prakrit word for Dharma was Dhamma. It was not like Jadaism vanished and Islam came about. You study Indian history through middle Eastern Abrahmic glasses.

Paper documents and artifacts can be doctored. Even in UN such proofs were provided to conclude that Saddam had WMDs and Chalu Chalabis such as you or Romilla will do required prostituting for few crumbs.

I would rather go by what gets imprinted on the DNA. If Dhamma or Jaina were violently persecuted and exterminated then we would have such traits ... gandhi would not happen in this land ... he would not have mass following. I wish influence of Buddha was not so extreme that Ashoka forgot his Kshatriya Dharma.... India suffered for 2 millennia because of Jaina & Buddha. Do you know that even Shivaji's great grand son took Sanyas and became a Bhikshu. Wish they had made understanding Geeta compulsory for every one. Then we would not had vain Rajputs such as Prithwiraj. Geeta understanding would have made him kill Muhammad of Gaur in the first battle, just as Arjuna killed Karna.

Coming back to history based on DNA imprints ... go and find why Afghanistan is suffering. Violence, looting and intolerance is imprinted by coopting with Islamic hordes. Find out where the progeny of Akbar are today. They are pulling rikshas around slums in Hyderabad. Why? Paper documents of their inheritance does not help. What got imprinted onto DNA by sibling murders, drug addict Hukka Pani and Kotha culture tells more than paper sources/books.

Islamic invaders destroyed intellectual capital of India. Some gandus in India coopted with them, and now they are writing books telling that our great grandpa had his fly open in 7th century as Romilla found non working zipper near Kutub Minar.

There are many sources of history apart from Dr. Romila Thapar and many people are also guided by well sanitized school history books. The struggle for power was a very serious and bloody business in every country with the possible exception of the Buddhists (not including Cambodia).

The Rajputs completely vanished from Indian history during the thousand years of Buddhism supremecy from Ashoka to Harshavardhan in the 7th century. They were reinvented out of mainly Huna clans by the Brahmins and either exterminated or converted all the Buddhists and many Jains. There were as many Buddhists as Hindus at the time of Hsuen Tsang in the 7th century but they had completely and totally vanished a century later.

The Rajputs were thus not only `fire born' but rose out of an ocean of blood and suffering.

Please note that this was no Hindu revival as there was no Hindu religion as such at this time. You might have noticed that I speak of a Brahminical revival as the Brahmins were not only converting pagan Huns but also the numerous local tribes who worshipped their own tribal deities (as many hill and forest tribes still do).

For references and bibliography read my book:

REFLECTIONS IN A SACRED POND

It is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and elsewhere. It is now going into a third edition.

#122 Ranjit (Got into IIT without Quota)

Okay okay. Calm down. We all believe you. You got in fair and square, and not because of your "low" caste status.

: )

Re:ajeya
"That is why a newer version of Islam, with a new "prophet" would be very helpful (it's all bullshit anyway, so what's the difference? Idiots have their "religion", and everybody is happy)."

Shut up bihari.....what does a loser bihari like u know about religion?.....go milk your cows and steal money from someone....

Ajeya,

Why are you so ashamed of your Bihari background? Bihar is also part of India....I understand that it is traumatic to call Laloo Prasad Yadav as dad and Rabri Devi as mom....but so what?....reality is what it is.....garv se kaho ki tum bihari ho!!....keep the bihari flag flying high.....

Ajeya,

Why are you so ashamed of your Bihari background? Bihar is also part of India....I understand that it is traumatic to call Laloo Prasad Yadav as dad and Rabri Devi as mom....but so what?....reality is what it is.....garv se kaho ki tum bihari ho!!....keep the bihari flag flying high.....

Correction:

So some evidence of large-scale, violent extirpation of Buddhism by others throughout India (or across large swathes of the land) over a period of time would be helpful.

---------

There were no Hindus then, and presumably not just brahmins could have carried out such mass extirmination of Buddhists.

Baig Sahib, finally, it's good to see you here!

If all those things are true, then we need to acknowledge them. We know there are some Buddhist texts complaining of persecution by some kings, but in general, people appeared to have had little problem with the Buddha or his message - not in any violent way. It wasn't that different from what many well-respected philosophers had been saying in India anyway (not to take anything away from the breathtaking advaces he made). Also, Buddhism and other Indian traditions continued to live side by side in India (and in South East Asia). Even from a religious point of view that would be natural.

So some evidence of large-scale, violent extirpation of Buddhism by Hindus throughout India (or across large swathes of the land) over a period of time would be helpful.

muradbaig#110:

Zahe naseeb, aap ko is mehfil mein aana gawaara tau huwa!


I, too, am waiting to see reference to original documents. Amazing that all these "facts" came to light only after the Nehruvian mandate to "secular historians" to rewrite history which established hindu-muslim same-same equation. Amazing, too, that Nehru himself never discovered any such nuggets in his "discovery" of India.

But my skepticism is not just because these revelations were made during the rewrite of history, after all, we keep finding new facts of ancient history through archaelogical finds, etc. Instead, my skepticism is because of the complete lack of rancour or resentment between Hindus and Jains or Buddhists, whether living in India or abroad. This is quite unnatural: Europeans still remember the brutality of Chengiz Khan and Attila the Hun; Muslims still remember the massacres of crusaders; Hindus still are embedded with the memory of Ghazani after a thousand years of that event. But neither the Buddhists/Jains nor Hindus show any resentment towards each other; indeed, it was the Hindus -not the "seculars" - who made the biggest noise when the Bamiyaan Buddha statues were demolished.

BTW, I hope you will one day enlighten us with your analysis of the Indian auto sector - does Nano have a global future? Will the snob value of Jaguar ownership go down because of the ownership passing on to a third world conglomerate? Will Tatas succeed where Ford failed?

#106 Ranjit

[In the Indian army today, I dont believe there is any kind of segregation as far as food or living quarters are concerned. On the front, everyone does everything together. ]

You are exposing your "low" caste hangups for everyone to see. Why are you so ashamed to admit that you belong to a "low" caste? Because it is obvious to everyone watching.

#113 nasah

[God bless Akbar for siring a Hindu-Muslim mixed dynasty -- of half Moghul half Hindu kings of India -- that laid the foundation of multiculturism way back -- that started shaping up the current face of the Indian subcontinent –]

Maybe the long-dead families of all those innocent civilians that his armies butchered would not be able to forgive him, regardless of his change of heart later in life.

[... -- could have ascended the Delhi throne -- except for the support of his Elder Rajput king-maker uncle -- for the more aggressive -- more accomplished conquest hungry warrior - the funless ascetic Moghul -- the youngest Aurungzeb. ]

And this is why even the most liberal (therefore the most un-Islamic) of the Muslims are so dangerous - they could have an offspring who "interprets" the "holy" koran differently (i.e. just reads what is written, instead of "interpreting" it). Behold Osama Bin Laden, whose family is pro-west, and whose brother is a respected professor.

As long as the good book exists in its current form, and as long as mo's life-story continues to be propagated unedited, this threat to humanity will persist. That is why a newer version of Islam, with a new "prophet" would be very helpful (it's all bullshit anyway, so what's the difference? Idiots have their "religion", and everybody is happy).

#110 muradbaig

To begin with. I forgot to point this out:

[I have the presumption to desire to dye these black mustachios and beard in infidel blood through loyalty to your Majesty's person]

This shows a way of thinking codified in religion, and honored by Islamic society. That spilling the blood of the infidel is an honorable mission. This is why there is the "Allh ho akbar" cry in riots.

This is very different than Genghis Khan teaching his enemies a lesson by massacring civilians.


[Dont think we did not have non Hindu savagery in India.

There was a heady period of vigorous Brahmanical revivalism that gathered strength after the 7th century AD. Many local rulers, probably at the goading of their Brahmin ministers and priests, began to ruthlessly exterminate the previously dominant Buddhist and Jain faiths. No doubt the rich lands and treasures of their monasteries and temples also gave material incentives to this new religious fervour and many Buddhist and Jain stupas and monasteries were destroyed and Hindu temples established at their sites. Similar material motives had actuated religious persecutions in many lands including those by the nobles in England during the much more recent period of the Reformation.
Mihirikula, the Hun ruler was converted by Brahmins in 515 AD and soon unleashed a wave of violent destruction on Buddhist monasteries in Punjab and Kashmir. Kalhana’s Rajatarangani relates that crows and birds of prey would fly ahead of his armies in anticipation of the slaughter that lay ahead.
................................
................................
It is believed that Shankara introduced pilgrimages to these holy places in the Himalayas for the first time to prevent their relapse into Buddhist or animist ways that were earlier practised. As sufficient local Brahmins could not be found who were willing to preach in such remote places he imported Nambudri Brahmin priests from Kerala who, to this day, officiate at Badrinath, and Kedarnath.
Later as the mountain settlements grew other Brahmins like the Joshis and Pants from Maharashtra, Gairolas from Bengal and Negis from Gujarat were also invited to settle in the hills. A constant influx of Hindu pilgrims ensured the presence of many traders, priests and rulers who had a vested interest in sustaining the pilgrimages to these sacred spots. So conversions have had a long history in India and are not exclusive to Islam and Christianity. ]

All of this is useless, unless you can provide historical references.

SHOW ME THE HISTORICAL REFERNCES. Once you do that, we will inspect each case, one by one.

Killing civilians as a holy religious calling was NEVER a Hindu trait. It was ALWAYS a Muslim trait - in all their fights with "infidels", everywhere.

Akbar and Jodha is a heart warming film in the best tradition of Indian film making -- Akbar was my man – a king way ahead of his time.

Islam of Avicenna tamed the wahshi Mongols into the civilized Moghuls -- Hinduism transformed the Indian Moghuls to take them to new heights of tolerance and intellectualism in arts and architecture and in social spheres.

God bless Akbar for siring a Hindu-Muslim mixed dynasty -- of half Moghul half Hindu kings of India -- that laid the foundation of multiculturism way back -- that started shaping up the current face of the Indian subcontinent – a dynasty that could have lasted a little longer had the eldest Darus Shikoh -- the most learned and the most open minded and the most scholarly linguist (Sanskirt, Persian, Arabic) wine-loving heir -- could have ascended the Delhi throne -- except for the support of his Elder Rajput king-maker uncle -- for the more aggressive -- more accomplished conquest hungry warrior - the funless ascetic Moghul -- the youngest Aurungzeb.

Re: # 110: Dont weave fairy tales where are the proofs Doon boy?

Dont come up with Romilla Thapar JNU proofs. Today's Hinduism is more Jain and Budhist. Do not equate legions of exploitation and imperialism - that is what Abrahmic religions are - to Dharma. Ask your self if that is what our ancestor behaved then Shivaji, Rana Pratap, Guru Govind Singh, Ranajit Singh Gandhi, Subhash Chandra Bose or Bhagat Singh would have also behaved the similarly ie butchering civilians, destroying Taj Mahals, Red forts or British monuments and buildings in New Delhi, Kolkata or Mumbai. Compare that to what happened to Buddha statues in Afghanistan when Taliban is ruling it. If the Dharmic people do not do it today then most probably they did not do it before. We need not read books such as Akbar Nama or Aurangzeb Nama. Darabari Gandus such as you existed then who penned thos "his stories" for few crumbs.

Common man is realizing who finances naxalites, JNU gandus, Islami Jehadis and Christian missionaries. The source is only one. We know why Romila is in Univ of Chicago and why Indian Commies are now getting $60K per annum to do PhD in some social sciences.

DO NOT Chutya Banaw Public Ko!

Re: # 107
"Ans: Alexander was from a civilised place. He was out to conquer just to show his power. So, was Ashoka. They have not looted or destroyed existing civil structure"

Just ask the Zoroastrians, here:


The truth about alexander the "accursed"
By Maneck Bhujwalla

Maneck Bhujwalla writes:

I saw the TV documentary "In the Footsteps of Alexander ..." by Michael Wood, that was shown on public TV stations earlier this week. Here are my comments on what I learned from the documentary:

* Since childhood Alexander had nursed a feeling of bitterness and revenge against Persia for its defeat of Greek cities in earlier wars.

* Alexander had a psychological complex with respect to his father, King Phillip, and he wanted to prove himself to be a greater king than his father.

* Alexander's faith in the Greek gods whose messages he received through various oracles at different temple sites, gave him the sense of destiny that he was to be a world conqueror.

* Alexander was unpredictable in behavior, obstinate, and very lucky. Whereas he mostly massacred and tortured and destroyed his defeated enemies, occasionally like in the case of King Porus in India, he forgave and did not kill.

* Alexander proved himself to be a tyrant, by his various large scale massacres - 2,000 (Greek?) people crucified in Tyre, whole population on mountain top in Central Asia massacred even after they surrendered, all the Greek men, women, and children of a small town in Central Asia massacred when he found out that they belonged to the Greek people who had not supported him in Greece even though these people welcomed him, all the people of several towns in India massacred.

* Alexander was corrupted by the absolute power he gained through his conquests, and in denying his parenthood from King Phillip with whom he had conflict, he claimed that an oracle told him that he was the son of God.

* When his close friend tried to discourage his claims to be a God, and his dictatorial attitude that ran counter to democratic ideals of their Greek culture, and reminded him that his father was a greater ruler than him, Alexander kills his friend who had once saved his life. This shows his lack of loyalty, friendship, and brutality. Even the Greek historian has a hard time trying to defend this action.

* In the documentary, Michael Wood acknowledges that contrary to the misconception that the Persians were pagans, the inscriptions showed that the Persian kings worshipped Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom, and the Persian people believed in righteousness, honesty, and other ethical values.

* The people of many countries conquered and destroyed by Alexander, called Alexander as the devil, or the devil's creation, or Alexander the Accursed, not just Persians or Zoroastrians.

* In spite of Alexander's destruction of Persepolis and Zoroastrian religious books, etc., he did not succeed in permanently destroying the culture, tradition, or religion. The Parthians (from northeast Iran) overthrew the Greek rulers and later the Sassanian kings regained the original territory of the Persian empire of the Achaemanid kings.

* The original sacred fire in front of which Kind Darius (who was defeated by Alexander) prayed to God, was kept burning through the millenia, as claimed by the small Zoroastrian community that was interviewed by Michael Wood in Iran.

* And, the most important religious scriptures were saved because they were preserved by priests from generation to generation due to their practice of reciting them from memory. And even many of the lesser important scriptures were re-assembled during the Sassanian rule.

* If Alexander had not defeated the Persian king, Darius in the first battle at Sisson, it is likely that the countries that were victimized by his conquests in the Middle East and Asia, would not have suffered such destruction, killings, slavery, etc.

* If Alexander had not looted the treasury of Iran (which had more gold than all the gold at Fort Knox, in the United States), he would not have had the money to continue his military campaign further in Central Asia and India.

* Alexander's life of excess in wars, drinking, etc., finally caught up with him, and instead of living forever like a son of God, he dies a lone tyrant's death, without a true friend, at a very early age.

Dont think we did not have non Hindu savagery in India.

There was a heady period of vigorous Brahmanical revivalism that gathered strength after the 7th century AD. Many local rulers, probably at the goading of their Brahmin ministers and priests, began to ruthlessly exterminate the previously dominant Buddhist and Jain faiths. No doubt the rich lands and treasures of their monasteries and temples also gave material incentives to this new religious fervour and many Buddhist and Jain stupas and monasteries were destroyed and Hindu temples established at their sites. Similar material motives had actuated religious persecutions in many lands including those by the nobles in England during the much more recent period of the Reformation.
Mihirikula, the Hun ruler was converted by Brahmins in 515 AD and soon unleashed a wave of violent destruction on Buddhist monasteries in Punjab and Kashmir. Kalhana’s Rajatarangani relates that crows and birds of prey would fly ahead of his armies in anticipation of the slaughter that lay ahead.
Hiuen-Tsang describes the influence of a south Indian Hindu queen on her husband who ordered the execution of many thousand Buddhists including 8,000 in Madurai alone.
Vira Goggi Deva, a South Indian king, described himself as: “a fire to the Jain scriptures, a hunter of wild beasts in the form of the followers of Jina (Jains) and an adept at the demolition of Buddhist canon.”
Hired Brahmin killers tried to assassinate the Buddhist ruler Harshavardhana, who ruled in Kanauj from 606 to 647 AD. As a Buddhist, he was unwilling to take life and so banished 500 Brahmins involved in the conspiracy to a remote area South of the Vindhyas.
Graha Varman Maukhari, married to Harsha’s sister, was treacherously killed by Sasanka, king of Gauda (Bengal). He also proudly destroyed many stupas and cut down the sacred Bodhi tree at Gaya.
Chandradip, a Buddhist ruler of Kashmir, was killed by Brahmins in 722 AD. His successor Tarapida was killed two years later. The newly anointed Brahma-Kshastra rulers usurped power in the kingdoms of Sind and Kota.
The old tribal shrine at Jaganath Puri was usurped by Vaisnavas and still displays gory murals recording the beheading and massacre of many Buddhists.
The huge Buddhist complex at Nagarjunakonda was destroyed. According to Shankara Dig Vijaya, the newly anointed Brahma-Kshastra kings ordered every Kshatriya to kill every Buddhist young and old and to also kill those who did not kill the Buddhists.
A Jain temple at Huli in Karnataka had a statue of five Jinas (Jain heroes) that was re carved into a Shaivite temple with five lingas. Nepalese and Kumoani documents record that Buddhism had been the prevailing religion of the Himalayas until Shankaracharya deliberately destroyed them in the 8th century. There is no reliable evidence that Shankaracharya actually directed this persecution but what is likely is that grasping local rulers may have used his name to lend legitimacy to their destruction and looting. Many local hill rajas now invited Brahmins to their domains to get themselves elevated to the rank of Kshatriyas. And many were encouraged to attack Buddhist monasteries.
There are records stating that the followers of Buddha were ruthlessly persecuted, slain, exiled and forcibly converted. Though many converted rather than face death, humiliation or exile. It is reported that the attackers tested their faith by making them perform ‘Hinsa’, or the sacrifice of live animals, that was abhorrent to Buddhists and Jains. Many bhikshunis, or nuns, were forcibly married and the learned Grihasthas were forced to cut off the distinguishing knot of hair on top of their heads. It is on record that 84,000 Buddhist works were searched for and destroyed. The originally Buddhist Himalayan shrines at Badri and Kedar were then converted into shrines of Shiv and Vishnu.
It is believed that Shankara introduced pilgrimages to these holy places in the Himalayas for the first time to prevent their relapse into Buddhist or animist ways that were earlier practised. As sufficient local Brahmins could not be found who were willing to preach in such remote places he imported Nambudri Brahmin priests from Kerala who, to this day, officiate at Badrinath, and Kedarnath.
Later as the mountain settlements grew other Brahmins like the Joshis and Pants from Maharashtra, Gairolas from Bengal and Negis from Gujarat were also invited to settle in the hills. A constant influx of Hindu pilgrims ensured the presence of many traders, priests and rulers who had a vested interest in sustaining the pilgrimages to these sacred spots. So conversions have had a long history in India and are not exclusive to Islam and Christianity.

#108

Clarification about what I said:

If you think globally, you will act differently than if you are solely concerned with your own local affairs

#107
I feel Indians failed to defend India against invaders because Indians never had (and still do not have) a global perspective.

It is no suprise that the greatest Indian kings were Ashoka (who spread Buddhism all over the world) and Akbar (who, as is well known, had philosophers from all over the world in his kingdom).

A contemporary analogue are Infosys, Wipro, Tata, and other companies who consider the world to be their playground.

Europe was also divided into many small kingdoms. But Europeans were able to unite and repel the Muslims who invaded Europe precisely because they had a global perspective.

Today, does India have a global vision to offer the world? Are we propagating democracy? Whatever global impact India has is due to private entities (companies as above, Bollywood...). But Government of India does not have a global perspective nor does it offer a global vision of democracy and relative communal harmony.

Re: # 106
Ranjit...

Ans: Alexander was from a civilised place. He was out to conquer just to show his power. So, was Ashoka. They have not looted or destroyed existing civil structure. The Afghan/Turkish looters were of different genere. They were poor, barbaric nomads. For most of these cases, they have lost in initial battles and were let off by the Indian kings. Once, these Afghan/Turk invaders were able to break the shackle, they have destroyed the civilisation itself. The civilian achievement of India ( science, literature, architecture, mathematics) had started declining after the savagery of turk/mongol/afghan invastion....
Sikhs were able to do that as, Mughals were more concerned to spread in east, accross Ganga valley than looking in west...You need some buffer time to rebuild. Sikhs and Marathas had done that...
Anyhow, I still believe apart from caste system, India could have stopped the invaders, if they were little less civilised ( if Prithviraj Chauhan killed and maimed Muhammed Ghori and his companions, he would have been spared from the second battle) and little more united. As a defender, you need be more powerful than the attacker. Anyhow, whetever done is done...When a race reaches it's peak, they become little complacent and that causes it's downfall...Like US economy of today....

Re:nkg

In the Indian army today, I dont believe there is any kind of segregation as far as food or living quarters are concerned. On the front, everyone does everything together.

Yes, I am interested more in the military history. The Aryans had superb military traditions and they used to worship their weapons. Alexander discovered their military prowess when he attacked north-west India. Their military instinct got blunted over the centuries so much so that they could barely resist foreign occupation, until they rediscovered their vigor after becoming sikhs. It is a fascinating aspect of Indian history to think about.

Re: # 100
Ranjit...

Incidentally, the same hindushahi hindu rulers who got pulverized by Ghaznavi a few centuries back, had converted to Islam by that time. They were the Janjua clan. They sided with Babur against the hindu rajputs.

Ans: Indians were not part of any religion ( apart from Budhdhism). So, converting to Islam was not of any significance to them. The concept of India was not there at that time, neither the concept of Hinduism. So, there is no way painting them as villain...

Re: # 101
Ajeya...
Please stop making personal attack...We are here to exchange opinion and may be to learn...

Re:ajeya

You are indeed a Bihari. Say pranam to your dad Laloo Prasad Yadav and mom Rabri Devi!! By the way, there is no shame in being a Bihari.....

Ranjit...

..different caste groups cooking separately....
Ans: Still now, we maintain Punjab, Gurkha, Maratha, Rajput battelion and are able to fight with external enemy.

I have made my point from the civility angle. You are more focussed on military perspective.
One person has brought interesting point. We maintain everything of caste system, albeit the origin of caste system, profession...

#99 Ranjit

[You didnt comment about the fact that the caste system became an endogamous ....blah blah blah... How could such a society develop any common feeling of kinship? ....blah blah....when they were so isolated and foreign to each other? We should make love, not war...blah blah....]

Okay. So some "high" caste girl kicked you in the teeth because you are from a "backward" caste. Not nice of her. But who cares? There's plenty of fish in the sea. And what's wrong with "low" caste girls anyway? Why run after the "high" caste ones? It's not like you have to prove anything to yourself? Eh? After all, you cannot have quotas in marital relations. Sorry. Just swallow your pride and keep going. After all, you went to IIT! Regardless of HOW you got in. You DID get in.

So there!

Re:nkg#84 (contd)

There is a very interesting incident mentioned in Baburnama, when Babur was attacking North India. On the eve of a battle with the Rajputs, he noticed that the Indian military camp had several fires burning in the distance. When he asked about it, he was told that the different Rajput subcastes were cooking their food separately. Babur immediately said that the battle would be won. If people wouldnt eat with each other, why would they give up their life or limb to fight for each other? Indeed, Babur crushed the Rajputs.

Incidentally, the same hindushahi hindu rulers who got pulverized by Ghaznavi a few centuries back, had converted to Islam by that time. They were the Janjua clan. They sided with Babur against the hindu rajputs.

Re:nkhg#84

You didnt comment about the fact that the caste system became an endogamous construct where people only married within the caste and had very little social mobility across caste boundaries. I understand your point that it was a system for division of labor and originally it may have been a open system. However, it degenerated into a social structure that led to severe fragmentation of the society with rigid boundaries. How could such a society develop any common feeling of kinship? How could people step up and fight foreign occupiers when they were so isolated and foreign to each other?

India's lack of military resistance to centuries of imperial muslim rule is a matter of shame and cannot be wished away as the job of the kshatriyas/rajputs. When France was occupied by Nazis, the French started the resistance movement to sabotage the Nazis. When the British rule was unbearable, the Americans rebelled with ordinary farmers picking up arms to start a revolution. Shivaji and the sikhs are an example of what hindus could have done if they had a better socio-political system. In fact, then they may have never been conquered in the first place.

I agree with you about the existence of so many kingdoms as a huge reason for India's downfall. That is the second reason besides our decaying social structure for the lack of a unified resistance. It goes to the lack of a common feeling of kinship and extreme short-sightedness of India's hindu ruling class. They preferred to see their neighbor getting screwed, even enjoyed the sight rather than pick up arms to help him out. Its a sad lesson of history.

#96 Ranjit

[My merit based academic and professional accomplishments would dwarf yours..]

Well this is not a pissing contest. You should feel content with who you are. Why should you feel you need to trumpet your accomplishments? There is no need to feel inadequate. It doesn't matter how you got into IIT (if at all you did). And in any case, who's going to check?

Relax. You are okay just the way you are. Repeat this to yourself as many times as you can. It will have beneficial effects on your mind.

#95 muradbaig

[Let's stick to the known facts of history without ideological overlays.]

I can't believe my eyes! At last here's someone who sticks to objective facts! Wonderful.

[Brutal measures were necessary in brutal ancient times. There were few exceptions including Ashoka and Genghis Khan. But these were not plain blood lust but practical policy. Akbar and Alexander were quite kind when they could be but needed to make unforgettable examples to deter any who dared to oppose them. Genghis Khan would butcher the leaders and aristocrats of all the tribes that opposed him so that their leaderless followers were happy to join his ranks where there was the offer of equal spoils and plunder.]

Unfortunately, we are covering different KINDS of things under one umbrella. NO HINDU KING HAS EVER SLAUGHTERED INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

The ONLY PEOPLE who slaughtered inncocent civilians mostly belong to the following categories:

1) Communist ideologues like Stalin, Pol Pot etc.

2) Nazi ideologues like Hitler

3) Christian ideologues like the Crusaders,

3) Islamic ideologues like the Mughal emperors, Turkish rulers and of course, the head ideologue himself - Mohammed.

4) Uncivilized barbarians with barbaric traditions like Genghis Khan.


Of all these groups, the Islamic ideology has been the most potent in this respect, maybe because one can shame a Christian by asking "What would Christ do?", but one cannot ask a similar question of Muslims - "What would Mohammad do?" - he has left ample evidence of not only what we would have done, but what he ACTUALLY did - like the butchering of 700 unarmed civilians.

Ajeya,

I dont really care what you think about me. My merit based academic and professional accomplishments would dwarf yours so dont even go there. Its only a lowlife like you who would make casteist attacks on people in today's India. You must be from a older generation or perhaps you are a Bihari to have such fossilized thoughts. I pity you for that. Have a nice day....

The interacts have wandered off far away from the basic themes.

Brutal measures were necessary in brutal ancient times. There were few exceptions including Ashoka and Genghis Khan. But these were not plain blood lust but practical policy. Akbar and Alexander were quite kind when they could be but needed to make unforgettable examples to deter any who dared to oppose them. Genghis Khan would butcher the leaders and aristocrats of all the tribes that opposed him so that their leaderless followers were happy to join his ranks where there was the offer of equal spoils and plunder.

Free from the shackles of rigid religions or priests they were all quite flexible in dealing with subject people. Even Timur Lang was not religious in his slaughter of 90,000 at Baghdad or an alleged 80,000 in Delhi because he slaughtered all who opposed his armies and most of the victims were Muslims.

Akbar and Alexander were not original in making defeated rulers as their vassals. This had been very practical policy as they did not have the manpower to rule so many distant or hostile areas. But they were remarkable in that they both made serious efforts to merge with the locals. Persians were as honoured in Alexander's court as Rajput Emirs were honoured in Akbar's. Even Aurangzeb's main generals were Rajputs. He even offered Shivaji the command of 5000 but he refused as he wanted command of 8000 and then rebelled.

The alleged Rajput outrage about the Jodha Akbar film does not concern history about which most people are rather fuzzy but the fact that Rajputs were not forced to serve the Mughals but were very willing to cooperate. No effort was made to convert any of them. This inconvenient truth does not fit Hindutva ideology hence it is not surprising that the protest has been mainly in the BJP ruled states.

Let's stick to the known facts of history without ideological overlays.

Murad

#93 Ranjit

[As they say in IIT, take a flying f*ck.....so get lost and stay lost..... ]

Actually they say that EVERYWHERE - it is not something exclusive to IIT. Even if you got in on a quota, you should have known this.

Also remember, anger is a sign of fear or anxiety. You seem to be anxious about how other people perceive you. Why do you care what other people think about you? Just because you got in on a quota does not make you any less of a person. You can still say you are an IITan (if indeed you are). How would other people know that you got in on a quota? Eh?

I think you are worried for nothing.

Ajeya,

As they say in IIT, take a flying f*ck.....so get lost and stay lost.....

Re: Ranjit

Ranjit,

I have given you ample time to respond. You should have responded to me by now. If your furious googling returned no incriminating evidence against Ashoka, you could have posted a message saying "can't find any dirt on Ashoka, still googling" or some such thing.

But you did not. I have been polite to you. You have not reurned the favour. The result, I'm afraid is going to be this. I am going to be on your case on Chowk from now till eternity. Even if you change your name to something else, the intellectual footprint of a dumbed-down JNU-style forebrain would be hard to miss.

And you have only yourself to blame. What a pity!

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Re various on cast..

It is so ironic that the only aspect of the cast system that has not survived is the only aspect it originally had: division of labor. Everything that has been added on is still going on.

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Re: # 83
Ahmed...

Now I have respect for people who have gone to IIT college but most others are just nobodies. Same here only NED and lahore management science dept is great all other is just drama of education. Now even IIT has no value in world. I have only once gone to Foreign country a arab country very rich. They do not give damn to IIT ( it is truth bitter truth ). One arab philosopher professor said correctly " India's problem is always developing country all promise , just hot air". Most valued degree in arab world is Arab graduate from american univ with experience in usa. It does not matter about quality of college. Then european univs, then Egypt univ , then pakistan colleges and then IIT and no value for Gawar colleges from India. Any way I took wrong turn so let me return to main thing.

Ans: Ho ho ho ho.... Arab philosopher!!!...Nice oxymoron; and that will evaluate technical education!!!

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2 007/subject_rankings/technology

Search in Google Vyomesh Joshi, Padmashree Warrier, Arun Sarin etc...
Anyhow, why IIT grads will go to Arab for work (apart from money)? Do arabs have anything to do with technology?
In the entire middle east, Israel is the only country, which has better quality technical education than India....
Anyhow, coming back to the goodwill with Pakistan, India should definitely keep good relationship with all the countries. That is the way to increase it's business share...A good relationship with Pakistan will open up market in Pakistan, Iran and central asian states for Indian products (automobile, electrical goods etc...). India can compete with China in these countries. In this respect, India has already provided MFN status to Pakistan...little civilised behavior from Pakistan is expected...

The threat of Taliban should not overwhelm India. India is fighting insurgency in North East and Kashmir for decaded. So, Talibs will add little more on this list of problems, India is facing...
BTW, what prompted you to say USA will force India to comply with Pakistan? It is like threating an elephant with rabies infected dog....
USA is ready to transfer any technology to India to contain China. The Indo-USA neuclear deal and the respective NSG approval of supplying Uranium is not enough for you guys!!!
EADS and Boeing are ready to setup technology centres in Bangalore, if HAL co-operates with them. CPI(M) is opposing it for the sake of China (USA and EU does not sell key defence technology to China for human rights violation)...

Ahmedmadani sahib,

(It is porous and Taliban empire can start Jehadi fire all along and faithful armies can demolish traditional army.)

But before they come to India, they will come to your beloved Karachi. You may want to think about this.

(Also in near future as indian population goes up they need food, wheat,milk , oil seeds and only pakistan can provide in sufficient amount)

But Pak these days is unable to feed its own people.

Regards

Re: # 76
Ranjit...

Note that once hindus did get united and pulled together, albeit after conversion to sikhism, they were able to give a very strong answer to aggression. In fact, the sikhs went all the way to Ghazni, plundered the place and brought back the gates of Somnath temple that Ghaznavi had taken there.

Ans: Sikhism was not supposed to promote martial arts. It was the Mughal barbarism, which had prompted Guru Tegh Bahadur to adopt 5 Ks. Nanak had not proposed these 5 Ks.
When you are fighting with barbarians, you may need to be barbarian. But, does that create better society within your country?
Whatever Shivaji & Sikhs had done is like paying back these barbarians with the same coin (like Gujrat and Mumbai riots). But to do so, you divert some of the energy from creative to destructive space. I think, the basic purpose of a society should be to maintain minimum deterrence in military front. Use most of the resources to build better society.
Satyajit Ray directed one movie based on the story written by his grandpa...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goopy_Gyne_Bagha_Byne
If possible, please watch the movie...Halla and Shundi, two different states....

Re: # 80
Sha..
Scoundrel...was trying to bluff; when caught red handed, started using filthy language...

Re: # 71
Ranjit..

Ans: What I have said is FACT. The caste group was prevalent in most of the contemporary civilisations; not amongst the nomads. To sustain society and make progressive civilisation, you need similar social structure. We call it caste system, others might have used different terms. History says, using this social model, India was able to contribute huge amount in astronomy,mathematics, medical science etc...
Indian kings never felt it necessary to use large section of their population to engage is arms training and martial art. Any mature civilisation will not do that.
Last 50 years, USA is kind of model for modern civilisation; military super power, technology and science super-power. How many % of US population forms the army/navy/airforce? Do every citizen in USA are engaged in arms training? How many countries of UN security council trains their entire population to be ready for combat? Does it create better society within a country?
India is rich of natural resources. Civilisation matured quite early here. So, use of arms was mostly restricted to defend its territory and in some cases to expand their territory. It was not means for sustaining the society.
On the contrary, nomads (Mughals, Pathans etc...), those who have attacked India, were not self sustaining society. Entire clan had to take up arms to loot other's property or settle in India to enjoy the fruit of wealthy state. That is the reason, when Indian kings fought with each other, they have not touched the civilian infrastructure. Whereas, the western nomads destroyed most of the temples and palaces and looted their wealth.
Read the history of Athens and Sparta in ancient Greece. It will provide some insight, how Athens being the centre of excellence in almost all fields, was destroyed several times by Spartans.
India was never a single country before British take over. During Mahabharata, there were 16 countries (Mahajanapadas) in Northern India alone. Apart from that, Narmada/Tapti valley had created host of civilisations. Rajputs were devided into several kingdoms. In Ganga valley Kanauj, Magadh etc... were different kingdoms ( part of 16 mahajanapadas). South of Vindhyas Karnat, Kanchi, Vijaynagar, Kalinga were duferent countries. It is this kind of division, which was reason for external invaders to conquer one by one. When these small kingdoms united under a single big ruler, India was able to defend. Story of Maurya and Nanda empire is proof of that.
Regarding Shivaji, it was necessary for the Marathas at that time to unite and take up arms to kick out moslems. The situation was not that grim, when Rajputs fought external invaders. Muhammed Ghori lost the first battle of Tarain. During the second battle, Ghori attacked at night and poisoned elephants of Prithviraj, Jaichand ( Pritviraj's father in law) helped him in this act of sabotage...
In this age of fast information flow, common people comes to know about a lot of stuff. So, it is easy to bring nationalism etc.. now. How much information people were aware of during 1962 war with China? How many volunteers Indian armed forces have received to fight along with them?
Society is jigshaw puzzle. The smaller the pieces, it produces finer results. But it is easy to destroy also...
Anyhow, I will prefer not to blame caste system as THE reason for India's military downfall...

Mr. Ajey,
You can think what Mr. Ranjit wrote. Here only rational and mature and with wisdom from India are firstly DM followed by Ranjit. He has written correct ,India need to support pakistan ( indirectly without making noise as it will be akward situation for GOP and GOI also). Pakistan is leader of Ummah and if you want good relationship with Ummah the road is through Pakistan. Pakistni Tabliban is on loose and have captured territory and they have following amoung general people. As its hard to have good opinion about corrouption soaked and corrouption dripping all politicians. ( little corrouption is fine if it helps to run nation as then its lubrication, some times I explained difference corrouption and Lubrication). Pakistan is keeping Pakistani Taliban at bay and battling fanatics. The situation is not promising as where it counts , the border areas Talibans control land and army controls air. It will good gesture of India to give kashmir valley with damage compension as then there will good will amoung people of Pakistan. Then only problems of Junagarh, Nizam state ( hyderbad Deccan) can be solved in give and take fashion. Till India does not make neighbour friend it is doomed. We may not be strong but USA and china depend on us to keep India downsized. Whenever you try to climb we can pull ladder and you will fall down and cannot make progress.

Now I have respect for people who have gone to IIT college but most others are just nobodies. Same here only NED and lahore management science dept is great all other is just drama of education. Now even IIT has no value in world. I have only once gone to Foreign country a arab country very rich. They do not give damn to IIT ( it is truth bitter truth ). One arab philosopher professor said correctly " India's problem is always developing country all promise , just hot air". Most valued degree in arab world is Arab graduate from american univ with experience in usa. It does not matter about quality of college. Then european univs, then Egypt univ , then pakistan colleges and then IIT and no value for Gawar colleges from India. Any way I took wrong turn so let me return to main thing.
Talibans are hard nosed people and they have all time of ages and they have good ground feeling as Major Pavo said. Hope he returns and gives good commentary on things. They can just wait and strike at will and if american exit and dollar pipe lins dries taliban will be happy. Then they will come out and start threatening civilised city and urban areas. They do not believe in borders. On non technicality of treaty expiring they want all areas west of Sindhu River. Now you little people think "big" about kashmir and boundary, while durand line of thousand miles id disputed boundary like loc. It is porous and Taliban empire can start Jehadi fire all along and faithful armies can demolish traditional army. When they rule your pipeline gas will be cut and they will put put 3 million Jehadis on India border with oneway ticket to India , how India can manage 3 million Jehadis with light but effective weapons and with atom bomb carrying rockets. This taliban will be mercyless and Chengiz will look moderate. As mr. Ranjit said before punjabi's are pragmatic people and they do not give damn to rulers . They do not care about anything specially fanticism if it is going to get hole in pocket. So I agree with Ranjit india needs to bend little and develop good will . Also in near future as indian population goes up they need food, wheat,milk , oil seeds and only pakistan can provide in sufficient amount and packaged foods. Now all indian construction depends on cement from here. Same way in almost all food categories Pakiustn can be great wheat,and food grains growing region of India beyond Indian borders.Otherway all real pakistani cultured has sunk under weight of Bollywood smuggled imports. Pakistan can supply India cheap energy natural gas from pipelines going from central and arab, Irani lands with big G as staring point for 3000 miles journey to china. Pakistan can supply good refined gas and value added products of great hydrocabon as a worlds largest enery Transmission controllers.
If India wants to help it poor starving citizen then they have to come to pakistan with generous mind and mood. Please note America+ China+ Pakistan axis is quite formidibale which destroyed russia and socialism and India is too weak country and feeble people to withstand pressure from axis based of mutual respect and self interest. Planning to hurt Pakistan is short cut to disaster and destruction of India. Good day.

#80 Shah2

[The only way to talk to you 'A gay A' And nkg(gandu )at your putrid level you rat worshipping rat themselves,penis monkey worshipping dark madrasi heng smelling pea brain retard turd is all code coolie is that you can say for your self ! ]

My my... What language! What would your mothers say!

#79 treetop

[I am always on the treetop watching insects like you on the ground. ]

Pedophile-worshipping worms watching insects? Hmmmm.... Isn't your time better spent trolling for underage kids?

The only way to talk to you 'A gay A' And nkg(gandu )at your putrid level
you rat worshipping rat themselves,penis monkey worshipping dark madrasi heng smelling pea brain retard turd is all code coolie is that you can say for your self !

Re: # 78 ajey
I am always on the treetop watching insects like you on the ground.

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#76 Ranjit

[So why were hindus utterly unable or unwilling to defend themselves as hindus but were perfectly capable of giving a strong response as sikhs? That goes towards my argument about the problems with our society as hindus. ]

Since you are logged in right now, would you be so kind as to give me a response to my polite question? That would be my post #74.

Thanking you,

Sincerely,

Ajeya

Kaal,

I understand what you are saying. But consider the events a 1000 years back. Ghaznavi comes over and sacks Somnath temple slaughtering thousands. Then he leaves his representatives to govern Punjab. Why wouldnt the rest of Indian kings get together and unite to expel him? Why wouldnt all hindus feel strongly enough to pick up arms and retaliate?

Note that once hindus did get united and pulled together, albeit after conversion to sikhism, they were able to give a very strong answer to aggression. In fact, the sikhs went all the way to Ghazni, plundered the place and brought back the gates of Somnath temple that Ghaznavi had taken there.

So why were hindus utterly unable or unwilling to defend themselves as hindus but were perfectly capable of giving a strong response as sikhs? That goes towards my argument about the problems with our society as hindus.

#69 Eklavya

[ajeya, are you going to address yourself ONLY to congenitally objective people? There are very very few people of that kind.]

This is unfortunately the truth. But I don't come on Chowk to pass the time chatting. In fact, I am so short of time nowadays that even the few minutes I spend on Chowk are becoming prohibitive. It does not matter to me if idiots perceive me as an idiot. I have too much contempt for them to waste time thinking about their emotional state.

There is a game you find in entertainment parks in the US. There is a board with a number of holes, and little puppets pop up from different holes at random. They give you a hammer to bang the puppets on the heads the moment they pop out. You play against someone else, and whoever bangs in the most number of puppets within a fixed period of time, wins. My visits to Chowk are like that. Clueless idiots with pet theories unsupported by facts, raise their ugly heads at random. It is a pleasure to hammer those idiot heads right back into whatever hole they came from.

Of course, I realize that just as in that game, these idiots never learn from their failure to support their own theories, and pop back up again after a while. So there is really no overall objective to this game I play on Chowk - idiots always stay idiots. It is just the pleasure of hammering them on the heads with logic and facts, and watching them disappear for a while, that makes it worth it. And like all games, it really does not accomplish anything.

#72 Ranjit

[Please carry on playing the victim card.]

Ranjit,

I'll try this just once with you.

Okay, so let's suppose I am the scum of the earth, and you are a level-headed, rational human being.

Now that that is behind us, I am hereby REQUESTING you, IN A CIVIL MANNER, to kindly put up your evidence - in the way of REFERENCES, that proves that Ashoka killed millions of civilians.

You have said a lot of things, and made many theoretical statements, about many things. I will not hold that against you provided you do the decent thing, and put up the evidence.

Because you are presumably an objective person, I hope you will not insult my intelligence and refuse to provide the evidence. I'll wait for your response.

As you have pointed out already, I am an uncivil person, and naturally you don't want me to do what comes naturally to me, and treat you in an uncivil manner. So kindly provide the evidence. I'm sure you would not want to provoke me by not doing so.

(I want a proper reference, not a UNREFERENCED paragraph from wikipedia)


Thank you.

Ranjit, one possible explanation is that there was no 'nationalism' then just as there was little religionism.

Kings did their things - maintained political and civil control, did some good (or bad) if they could for their peoples, but generally left the common man alone, even in wars. "What difference does it make to us, who the king is?" was the more general populace's attitude. People moved about reasonably freely, being bothered by only a few spies when they passed over to new 'states.'

It shouldn't mean that the place was not developed. It was. (There is an excellent map of some of the ancient cities here - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/EpicIndiaCities.jpg). But people had evolved a culture that did not consider one state to be fundamentally different from another state - enough to be exclusively identified with(just as one religious path not all that different from another path - not enough to be collectively identified with).

All these things broke down with the arrival of Islam first, and Europeans later.

(It's quite possible that the caste system had a significant role in promoting that view. People saw themselves primarily not as citizens of this or that state, or of this or that religion, but by their assumed role in society - a brahmin seeing himself as a priest or a teacher, a vaisya as a trader and so on.)

Ajeya,

Please carry on playing the victim card.

It is easy to blame external aggression since that is convenient and provides a good emotional trip for a while. What is the big deal in blaming exteranal aggressors anyway? Is it surprising that they attacked us, slaughtered us and enslaved us? What did you expect them to do? Join hands and sing cumbaya with the natives?

Its far more challenging to honestly analyze root causes of our downfall, how vast millions of people were subjugated to external imperial rule for centuries and how do we prevent this to happen again in our future generations. Thats a difficult conversation since one has to admit to one's own shortcomings first.

Also DO NOT use obscenities in your interactions with me. I can get down to that level too and tear you apart but I would prefer to keep things civil.

Re:nkg - "Caste system is not the source of India's downfall."

This is really laughable. Who know how the caste system started and what were its noble intentions regarding division of labor. The fact is that it led to severe perversions in Indian society and destroyed any semblence of India having an egalitarian society. I am sure you will have no interest in swapping castes with a lower caste person, even today when it might actually give you a benefit of reservations.

As far as you saying that only Kshatriyas were supposed to fight external enemies, it is again an amazing assertion. My friend, when an invader takes over your country, every able bodied man and woman needs to jump in and defend their country. Even if the army fails, people should form guerilla forces and attack and attack the invaders till they are thrown out. Shivaji is a perfect example. Just look at other countries in the world that got conquered. Any self-respecting people would fight back by creating a resistance movement. It is sad that Indian society would withstand centuries of imperial rule without any mass scale resistance. That is a telling indictment of our society. It has nothing to do with lack of courage since I believe that all humans are same. It is just that the social structure was such that it was not worth fighting for. Large numbers of people belonging to lower castes or backward castes did not care who ruled them since they never had a share of the spoils to begin with.

eklavya#63:

One should never underestimate the emotional appeal of "Pakistan ka matalab kya?" for Pakistanis, not just the establishment.

nkg, the only reason one can have reservations against the caste system is that it hurt people and went against our own basic ethical ideas. If one 'fixs things' merely for political reasons then one is not fixing them at all - only being opportunistic at a time and place. So I don't think of it as a political issue but a moral and ethical one.

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ajeya, are you going to address yourself ONLY to congenitally objective people? There are very very few people of that kind.