Akbar and Alexander

#45 tahir

[Come back with the correct figures and FACTS Islam-hater.]

Yes. Because I am not sure whether it is 700 or 900, therefore it makes Mo a saint instead of a mass murderer...

Don't bang your head too hard on the floor, maybe that's what's causing all this.


[To address the CHOWK editor in this fashion is horrible Ajeya....]

Horrible for whom?

[It is bad taste to speak of your father in such terms Ajeya...]

MY father? Ask your shrink to increase the dosage.

Re: # 17
CreateAlpha...
Indians were dirt poor...

Ans: Not exactly. Today, all political parties condemn caste system and social discrimination. But, if you read any pre-mediaval literature, all caste groups ( professions) used to live happily. There were no social discord (Brahmin's and banias are super rich and other's are poor). Budhdhism was silent revolution.
The problem started quite late; and common people started suffering extreamely during British period. The "Land Owner" class, they had created, were used to milk the poor working class and both have benefitted (British as well as Land Owners). British had never created environment for equitable distribution.
British contribution mostly lies in bringing back education, culture, science & engineering and to some extent discipline ( which was the greatest curse of Islam in India).....

#40 Ranjit

[Its not surprising that external muslim invaders had genocidal impulses towards indians. Any external invader looks down on the natives to begin with. When the natives rebel against their aggression, that impulse gets magnified even more as the aggressor wants to make an example of them and scare every one else to just follow in line.]

I forgot to add this. Alexander was an external invader. He did not have genocidal impulses. He did not kill Hindu civilians for any reason.

[I have the presumption to desire to dye these black mustachios and beard in infidel blood through loyalty to your Majesty's person]

Also, this is different than your Genghis Khan variety of murder and intimidation. This is religiously sanctioned and glorified butchering of Hindu "infidels" that was accepted, glorified, and rewarded by Akbar, and all the other Musla emperors.

Re: # 34
Shah...

Ranavir Sena Vs. Naxal is mostly due to land holding. It has nothing to do with caste. The land dispute is causing the problem.Poor land reforms in the region is largely responsible for this tussle.
A muslim killing other's because he does not believe that Muhammed was prophet or quoran, is Islamic killing. The blashphemy law in Pakistan or killing of Theo Van Gogh etc...are islamic killing.

Re:Eklavya#41 - "Ranjit, so Pakistanis will protect Indians from Talibanis because Indians and Pakistanis are ek hi ghar ke log ("share a similar way of life"), and unlike Indians, Talibanis are an alien threat to Pakistanis?"

Kaal, it is true that the Pakistani establishment created the Taliban as a proxy force to use for their imperial ambitions in Afghanistan and perhaps Kashmir. However, the Taliban has moved out of Pak control and has become an independent entity that has taken over large parts of the tribal areas and baluchistan. The Taliban goal is to take over Pakistan and implement their version of a shariah state. Essentially they want to change the way of life in Pakistan which is still quite open and liberal (almost hinduesque) into a ghastly version of Islamic society as per their vision.

Therefore, the transformational impact on Pakistan of a Taliban takover would be comparable to the transformational impact of a Ghaznavi takeover of the hindushahis a millenium back, in terms of the magnitude of change. Just because we have a feud with the Pak establishment over Kashmir, doesnt mean we should ignore this very real threat in our neighborhood. Imagine if these forces take over Pakistan, alter the lifestyle there and then threaten Armageddon with India using nukes!!

The good thing is that unlike a thousand years back, we have the US involved in the matter. The US understands the gravity of the situation and is actively working to shore up Pakistan against this nightmare. No wonder the jihadis in Pakistan are fuming, ranting and raving against the US. Their grand vision is getting destroyed. However, dont think for a moment that the jihadis have forgotten about India. If the US ever withdraws and Pakistan falls, their next target will be New Delhi.

Hence it is in India's self-interest to collaborate with the US and liberal elements in the Pak establishment to help out in the war against jihadis. It may not be military support but can be non-military support in terms of cooling down Indo-Pak issues, opening up trade and travel etc.

Ajeya,

Please read the following reference on Ashoka's Kalinga war -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians.

I dont want to minimize the atrocities of the muslim invaders by any means. Ghaznavi, Ghauri and others were scum of the earth. However, they didnt have a monopoly on barbarism. The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented. It didnt result in physical death but it systematically broke down the backbone of Indian society by totally fragmenting us.

#54 Ranjit

[Please read the following reference on Ashoka's Kalinga war -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians. ]

I just did.

It is said that in the aftermath of the Battle of Kalinga the Daya River running next to the battle field turned red with the blood of the slain; about 100,000 Kalinga civilians and more than 10,000 of Ashoka's own warriors were among those slain.


There is no reference given in wikipedia for that section. Any pedophile-follower could have edited it to prove that their cult is not so bad after all. I have never heard of such a thing in my life. And anyway, WHAT were the "100,000 civilians" doing next to the battlefield?

Show me actual references.

[The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented. It didnt result in physical death but it systematically broke down the backbone of Indian society by totally fragmenting us.]

Muslims like talking about the caste system. The caste system is our INTERNAL issue. WHY is it such a problem with them? It's like saying, you guys have a bad caste system - so it's okay to kill you guys.

Also, this Chowk seems to be INFESTED with "low-caste" Hindus. Are you someone with "low-caste" hangups? Because equating Hindu casteism to Muslims killing Hindus would tend to point to that. Are you a "dalit" or something?

Ajeya,

Are you a Kashmiri pundit or a Maharashtrian brahmin? Only those people are as fanatical as you are. So you think hindus never committed any atrocities against each other, Ashoka's slaughter of civilians is fabricated and caste system was an INTERNAL matter?

No wonder India is so screwed up. People like you make sure that we will always remain a divided and conquered society.

"Do you have any kind of family connections..."

"Are you a dalit or something...."

ajay bro, this technique of quickly personalizing opinions should be left to those who lack arguments. Else, others have good reason and right to throw the same back at you. This kind of dialogue helps no one.

Yaar, you, ranjit bhai, I, and everyone else knows how frustrating it is to run up against differences of opinion based on what we feel are just dogmatic beliefs. But so long as people share the same goals, we can't afford to destroy conversations by insinuating something is wrong with the other person.

(take this advice in the right spirit, man, coming as it does from a very senior citizen - or from someone who feels like one today).

Ajeya,
Pay attention to what Eklavya and Ranjit are saying .you have been nurturing hatred for too long and it has taken your shanti away.

Re: # 54
Ranjit...

The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented.

Ans: This is your perception, based on current social problems. The caste system was not imposed upon. Neither it was something, so called secular historians try to say as, imposed by aryans. Can you please explain the barbarism attached to caste system? Separating society based on skill and type of work ( specialisation) still exists. That way you have to tell the "barbaric" system IITs follow to separate Civil, Mechanical, Mettalurgy, Computer Science engineering...Each caste group used to live harmoniously for long time (close to 1000 years, without fighting with each other). Does not that prove that, there was no better alternative? Hope, you will answer...

Re: # 54
Ranjit...

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians.

Ans: I have serious doubt about this statement. Total casualty in Nandi Dev's side was around 100000. It was battle, not invastion of country. The place of the battle was Dhauli. Ashoka had not plundered/looted. The opponent, Nandidev had more than 60000 infantry (may be around 70000). I will try to find the proper information.

Re:nkg#59

Are you seriously comparing IIT engineering disciplines with the caste system? Are you delusional? I mean seriously dude, when I was in IIT Delhi, the CS guys used to look down on Mechanical Engineering (my discipline). But I can assure you that the CS guys didnt mind sharing the hostel mess tables with me at meal times. Sheesh!!

And no, I was not a SC-ST candidate, unlike what Ajeya might think.

Seriously though, every society has merit based divisions. No doubt about that. However, in other societies, that division is a SOFT division. People can move back and forth between professions and are not trapped in it by birth. That is the biggest weakness of the caste system. An entire group of people is condemned to do the same kind of menial work for generations no matter how much IQ that person has. That was the pernicious nature of the system. And it devastated India since it removed any incentives for people to defend their country and way of life. Most people were not stakeholders. Today our society is changing and people feel for the country because they have a stake in it. In the past, that was not the case. So when some joker rode in with his army from the north-west, only a few people put up a fight. Most people didnt give a shit, or worse converted. Thats why we got screwed.

I am amazed that I even need to explain this to you, assuming that you have anything to do with IITs.....

Re: # 61
Ranjit...

Ans: Your perception of "generation by generation" is totally wrong. People used to throw out brahmins from their caste ( out-caste) for wrong doings...Bidur's mother was from lower caste; but he was not treated badly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VW3abjIUgQ

The logistic support available at that time made it convenient for the next generation to adopt the same profession as that of parents. That is the way you learn the skill and even able to enhance it. People of same profession used to stay together to exchange their ideas and take their respective profession to higher level. This is called specialization and this model is preferred in almost all the societies. In Bengal there used to be locality based on profession called Kumor-para ( locality of potters), Chhutor-para(locality of carpenters)...
Caste system had created segmented society. But that was required...
You are looking into the caste system from the present social system. In my college (it is not IIT but mother of first IIT;IIT Kgp.
http://www.becs.ac.in), freshers used to be kept based on departments. ECE and CS people in the same room. CS and ECE people share common syllabus for first couple of years...
When brahmins started cheating other's using false ( in the guise of "God will be pleased if you do so") rituals, the society started crumbling...Caste system had not created exploitive society; otherwise it would have been destroyed long back. It had succeded in creating excellent advancements in medical science, literature, metallurgy, architecture, mathematics etc...A society can not prosper without good administrative model...
Regarding menial workers/blue color workers; their fate is similar everywhere...

Re: # 61
Ranjit...

Today our society is changing and people feel for the country because they have a stake in it. In the past, that was not the case. So when some joker rode in with his army from the north-west, only a few people put up a fight. Most people didnt give a shit, or worse converted. Thats why we got screwed.

Ans: I don't think it is matter of stake etc...It is the duty of army/kshatriyas, who are supposed to fight and they have fought. If China attacks India, will you go to battle field? No. It will be left to the military administration to recruit more people, collect ammunition and fight. We will pay extra tax. This is the way civilisation evolved. Now look at barbaric/nomadic societies (like Talibs /Afghans). They have no social divistion as they don't bother about society building. Every child are trained to loot, kill etc...
Like people working in Central Ordinance Factories in modern days,the job of blacksmiths was to manufacture better ammunition and they were engaged in that. They were not skilled or meant to fight external enemy. Shivaji ( like present day Israel) had broken this social structure and used to train every citizen in military skill. That had bourne some fruit in driving moslems away.
India lost wars, not due to internal social problem. Rather, it was the infighting between states, that has caused downfall. Whenever the Indian empire grown very large ( Maurya, Nanda etc..) external enemy failed to enter India. Alexander was stopped at the border of Nanda empire...Regarding Prithviraj Chauhan, he had defeated Muhammed Ghori in the first battle and even let him off (P O W). During the second battle, Muhammed Ghori attacked at night, which is against rule of battle at that time...

The converstion is something different. Some people, for personal gain migrate to different countries. They are of similar category of people who convert for gains.

Ranjit#53:

India cannot depend upon Pakistan to defend itself against Taleban. I agree with you that Indians should not rejoice at external enemies weakening Pakistan. But if Pakistanis want to have a taleban-type govt., it's their right and privilege to do so. India's defence is India's responsibility and it should be prepared for all eventualities, including the possibility of a taleban type govt. there. In any case, I am doubtful if a taleban govt. would be any more hostile to India than the Pakistani establishment has been for most of that country's existence.

Regarding the caste system, you are right that a soft division was there in all societies (even today, you have occupation-origin names like Carpenter, Silversmith, Goldsmith, etc.). The crucial difference was the endogamous nature of the caste system, which prevented inter-caste mobility.