Akbar and Alexander

Interesting perspective although all kings, rulers can be compared to each other but comparing Alexander to Akber was interesting reading.

Akber confined himself to India – respected local traditions while Alexander was a plain barbarian and nothing more – he was Chengez Khan of Macedonia.

Its interesting to note that all rulers suffer from multiple personality disorder. I wish they had shrinks back then.

As a direct descendent of Sheikh Salim Chishti, I have great respect for Akber for investing in Fatehpur Sikri.

Akbar himself inherited some army from his father. He was able to milk the internal rivalry between different western states (Rajputs had around 5/6 dominant groups. Always couple of them will fight with the other clan to ensure that, aentire Rajput clan remains dependent on others. Sheer stupid!!!).. Alexander had built his own army conquired but not vandalised any of the lands...brought european culture into India...Constructed number of cities in north africa and middle east...He is no comparison with this barbaric urdooo Akber...

Alexander the 'great' homosexual, pagan punk, globalist destroyer.

He was also NOT the Zul Qarnain (mentioned in the Qur'an, as some Muslims theorise!

Some 'Choorpeans' ('achoots' with a Euro-label) here would rather prostrate to Alex than Akbar, as if all the culture was brought to India only by the former!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
His journey brought advanced medical science of India and Egypt into Europe, which is the base of all mdeical school in developed world...
Much of the beautiful arhitecture in North West Pakistan, Afghanisthan and Persia/Iran was combination of Greco-Indian architecture...

Re: # 2
Who destroyed Presepolis?
Telling lies and making excuses is not the way to get your dignity and confidence back after thousand years of ignomy.I do understand your anguish,and i feel sorry for you.

Re: # 1 IB
You need to provide a DNA test to prove your claim.

This comparison is nothing more than comparing a donkey with a thoroughbred. There are many cities in the world named after Alexandros and only a few pakoRa shops after the so called Moghal-e-Azam. It’s funny that how an empire was founded on sex, betrayal, more sex, concubines, and music.

Aray Bhai, no need for a DNA test – g’pa brother (Mashuk Chishti) is in charge of dargah in Fatehpur Sikri ; although there’s a problem with power sharing at dargah so the ‘gadi’ is shared between a cousin and our family. This to my understanding is a topi drama from ages – so out of disgust I’m a benevolent Deobandi.

Kul is your perspective tainted by the influence of your better half ....or dislike of sunni indo pak now and in the past.???

You may be right one was not as great or equal to other ,but no body is saying there achievement were identical.Alexander is every bodies historical figure ..europe mideast asia
where as Akbar was just 3 rd in line of Moghul who had already established an empie only Akbar to expanded it .

I know you hate as intensely as Arjun /Laddu etc but i dont blame for what has been done to you

One of the ways to think about these things is the Muslim or Islamic way, where facts are not very important, but glorification of anything to do with Islamic barbarians is a good thing.

The other approach is to look at the facts, and let the chips fall where they may.


Hindu Temples Destroyed

Contrary to popular belief Akbar, continued the policy of Babur and Humayun in the destruction of Hindu temples. It is recorded by Bayazid Biyat, personal attendant of Humayun, that Akbar gave two villages for the upkeep of a mosque and a Madrasa which was setup by destroying a Hindu temple [18]. Akbar's army was responsible for demolition of rich Hindu temples which had gold idols in the Doab region between Ganga and Yamuna [18]. Historian Abd al-Qadir Badauni records that during Akbar's reign at Nagarkot, near Kangra, 200 cows were slaughtered, numerous Hindus killed and a temple was demolished [18].

On the 1st Rajab 990 [AD 1582] Akbar's forces encamped by a field of maize near Nagarkot. The fortress (hissãr) of Bhîm, which has an idol temple of Mahãmãî, and in which none but her servants dwelt, was taken by the valour of the assailants at the first assault. A party of Rajpûts, who had resolved to die, fought most desperately till they were all cut down. A number of Brãhmans who for many years had served the temple, never gave one thought to flight, and were killed. Nearly 200 black cows belonging to Hindûs had, during the struggle, crowded together for shelter in the temple. Some savage Turks, while the arrows and bullets were falling like rain, killed those cows. They then took off their boots and filled them with the blood and cast it upon the roof and walls of the temple [19].

Akbar waged a holy war (Jihad) against Rana Pratap. Abd al-Qadir Badauni who was then one of Akbar's court chaplains or imams, states that he sought an interview with the emperor when the royal troops were marching against Rana Pratap in 1576, begging leave of absence for "the privilege of joining the campaign to soak his Islamic beard in Hindu infidel blood". Akbar was so pleased at the expression of allegiance to his person and to the Islamic idea of Jihad that he bestowed a handful of gold coins on Badaoni as a token of his pleasure.[20]

At first the Emperor said: “Why he has just been appointed one of the Court-Imáms, how can he go?” Naqíb Khán represented that I had a very strong desire to take part in a holy war. So the Emperor sent for me, and asked me: “Are you in earnest?” I answered: “Yes.” Then he said, “For what reason?” I humbly replied: “I have the presumption to desire to dye these black mustachios and beard in infidel blood through loyalty to your Majesty's person:— .....And when I put out my hand towards the couch in order to kiss his foot, he withdrew it; but, just as I was going out of the audience chamber, he called me back, and filling both his hands he presented me with a sum of 56 ashrafí, and bid me farewell.

During the siege of Chittor, 8000 rajputs had remained inside the fort to defend various temples after the cavalry sallied out to meet Akbar's army in the plain below. These 8000 died fighting to the last man in defence of Hindu temples when Akbar's army stormed the fort and attacked the temples. In addition their were 30,000 Hindu peasants inside the fort who were unarmed and massacred in cold blood by Akbar's forces [21]. Historians have succesfully argued that victorious Islamic armies usually gave a choice of conversion to the defeated and on refusal to convert such massacres occured.

The shrine of Moinuddin Chisti in Ajmer was presented brass candlesticks by Akbar which were taken after the destruction of Kalika temple by Akbar during the third siege of Chittor [22]

References

1. bookrags.com - Encyclopedia of World Biography article
2. the-south-asian.com - Short Biography
3. bookrags.com - Encyclopedia of World Biography article
4. the-south-asian.com - Short Biography
5. Women of the Mughal Dynasty - Deborah Hutton - 2002 - Skidmore College.
6. History of India The Nine Gems of Akbar - Neria Harish Hebbar, MD - Saturday, April 5 2003
7. The Second Battle of Panipat - Robert W. Martin - about.com.
8. a b c Abul Fazl - Akbarnama Volume II
9. The life and times of Humayun, by Ishwari Prasad (1955, rev. 1970)[1]
10.Akbar - The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition 2006
11.a b Irfan Habib (1992), "Akbar and Technology", Social Scientist 20 (9-10), pp. 3-15 [3-4].
12.Abul Fazl - Akbarnama Volume III
13.S.K. Banjerji: "Humayun Badshah".
14.Abul Fazl - Akbarnama Volume I
15.http://punjabgovt.nic.in/government/gurdas1.GIF
16.a b Jahangir, Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Memoirs), 17th century, as translated by Alexander Rogers, 1863.
17.M. Miles, SIGN, GESTURE & DEAFNESS IN SOUTH ASIAN & SOUTH-WEST ASIAN HISTORIES: a bibliography with annotation and excerpts from India; also from Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Burma/Myanmar, Iraq, Nepal, Pakistan, Persia/Iran, & Sri Lanka, c1200-1750
18.a b c Harbans, Mukhia : The Mughals of India, Pub: Blackwell Publishing Ltd., ISBN: 9780631185550, Page 23
19.H.M. Elliot and J.Dowson, History of India As Told by Own Historians, Volume V, Publisher: Ams Pr Inc (June 1977), p. 358
20.Abd al-Qadir Badauni, Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh, vol. II, p. 383
21.Dr. Satish Chandra: Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals, Pub: Har Anand Publications, ISBN: 8124105227, Page 107
22.C.C.Watson (I.C.S): Rajputana District Gazetteers, Pub: 1904 Scottish Mission Industries Co., Ltd., Page 17

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Re: # 11 ajeya
Since you know who you are why dont you accept it.please dont pin your hopes on whites,thier days are numbered.look towards china,or become a muslim.

#12 treetop

[Since you know who you are why dont you accept it.please dont pin your hopes on whites,thier days are numbered.look towards china,or become a muslim. ]

Have you looked at the volume of research going on in the world today? It's increasing every day, and most of it is in the white countries. You arab-bootlickers are WAY behind, and falling behind every day. So don't kid yourself.

It is true that most whites in America are unsuspecting, and are planning to elect a president Hussein, but they will realize their mistake one day, and when they do, there will not be any turning back. They won't be like us Hindus giving Haj subsidies after being killed, raped, everything'ed for a thousand years.

Sometimes I think maybe it's not such a bad idea for Hussein to become president. America will learn a lesson they will never forget. And then maybe there will be a solution.

Good article. Now am declaring war on my neighbor who has been acting quite uppity. Got to bring her down a peg or two.

Muslim writers stated quite frequently that they took the game of "shatranj/sh" from the Iranians, who called it "chatrang".

. Chess was only a part of this knowledge, packaged together with earlier mathematical, astronomical, philosophical or medical achievements.


However, we know that while chess flourished in Baghdad in the 9th century, the earliest reliable account of chess-playing in India date only from the 11th century

“Kul is your perspective tainted by the influence of your better half ....or dislike of sunni indo pak now and in the past.???”

Shah2 Ji, what makes you say that? What exactly did Moghuls do for India, and even for Muslims of India for that matter? Other than taking in all the beautiful women and turning them into concubines for their pleasure? Even the low level Wazirs had dozens of Indian women for their pleasure? Not a single (not one) Moghal princess has ever been known to have a fling with an indigenous Indian. That says a lot about them Moghuls. We should thank the British for sending the Moghals where they belonged. Can you name a single library they left behind? They chopped off the hands of the artisans who built the Taj and the useless gardens all over north India. Says a lot about your Sunni brethren who treated their fellow Muslims, aka aams, like dirt.

It’s greatness of India that it considers them one of their own. In other places, they will be remembered as a piece of shit that they were. Do you really believe that they were Sunnis?

I still don’t get it why do Pakistanis claim as Moghals as theirs? On what friggin grounds? What was so Pakistani about them?

More so than that kul. before the british, Indian has almost 25% of global GDP, but Indians were dirt poor...poorer than 20 years ago on a ppp basis. Indians should thank the british for getting rid of those assholes

--“Do you really believe that they were Sunnis?”
The above quote intrigued me.
There is no comment here on Akbar’s attempt at establishing his Deen-e-Elahi, one presums, to unite his subjects under one religious canopy.
If he was a Sunni--jo soon soonkar Musulman baney—-I think he would have tried to impose an acceptable ‘religion’to all.
What ever else he was, I am sure he was not a Sunni or even Shia but in his own way perhaps a pluralist of the enlightened kind.
But he missed the target by using the Arabic words in his dogma, thus alienating both the good Muslims and the non-Muslims.
Being a Persian speaker had he named his idea, some thing like Raah-e-Khudai, he might have done better, I think.
Rashid

Re: # 7
You are advised to stay holed up in New York and glorify Alexander who died in Babylon (the moral sinkhole of the ancient world) committing every conceivable perversion that befitted his majesty!

Re: # 11
Ajeya,

Have you been bitten by the same king cobra as the other venomous things on CHOWK?

You're worse than some of us who have cooked up the alleged 'right to rule' episode and have not forgiven in over fourteen centuries. You're even worse than the Jews...

Muslims were not the only ones who came to buy property, propose to your distant cousins, and make you submit. First abuse and curse each one of them including the recent colonists.

Re: # 16
Who wronged you in your childhood? Tell me and I will axe him/her/it....

Re: # 16
Thanking the British is a very 'Q' personality trait. Are you 'Q'?

Regards (non-'Q')

Re: # 21; Tahir

Did some one step on your poochhal again today?

Remember, you insult others so be prepared to have the same back!

Now hop along with your poochhal between your legs and do your 'shikayet' to your 'protectors' here; bewakoof na hove te

shah2#15:

I do not know where shatranj originated and don't care. But I find it interesting that while both Hindus and Muslims are the sons of the same soil, Hindus try to give India credit for everything and anything while Muslims would deny India credit for anything except for what the Mughals did. Here is the basis for the two nation theory.

A question for the knowledgeable!

Was Akbar raised as Shia originallly? I am asking this question because Humayun had accepted to become Shia as a condition for accepting the help of Iranians and was probably Shia when Akbar was born. If so, did he become Sunni while under the custodianship of Bairam Khan?

ajeya:

Don't you think that people can change during their lifetime? Didn't Ashok start out as a violent warrior before the battle of Kalinga?

I think that there is a difference between the early Akbar and the latter-day Akbar. As he grew older, he became less and less Muslim and more accomodative to his Hindu subjects. From what I have read, he did abolish jeziya and even banned cow slaughter. He veered from Islam and started his own religion, Din-e-Ilahi, based on elements of both Islam and Hinduism. He alienated the Mullahs who regarded him as an apostate.

Re: # 24 Akber son of Sunni , son of hhamidabai a shia sheltered by hindu rajah gave
birth at bad times .Then improsined/protected by his own uncle who was blinded by his own father was affected by lot of things, also there good reference he was poisoned by his own son.

Illusions are very powerful than truth and illustions are very inspiring than truth. It is said that salmon fish goes from fresh water to salt water and makes final journey for departure to place he was born. Same way millue and ethos engrained in people in childhood gives habit and character and this predetermines destination. It is closed circle only few can break cycle.This things are in humans blood as sexuality they take over and overdrive.

#26 dost_mittar

[Don't you think that people can change during their lifetime? Didn't Ashok start out as a violent warrior before the battle of Kalinga?]

Dost-Mitter,

I have said this many times, no Muslim has ever been able to refute it (because it's irrefutable - not because I am providing any extraordinary logic or fact). But after a gap of a few weeks/months, Muslims say the same thing again. This may be because they are blinkered in their way of thinking (how else could you hold a pedophile, serial rapist and serial murderer in such high esteem?).

Here's hoping this time it will be the last (although I'm afraid Muslims are not going to change in their basis thinking abilities).

Okay. Let me try again.

1) Ashoka killed MILLIONS of SOLDIERS in the battlefield. Soldiers who were fighting his army. He NEVER killed a civilian. Akbar, and all Muslim emperors butchered thousands upon thousands of INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

2) Not only that, the CAUSE that these vile Pedophile worshippers butchered the civilians is important. They killed them JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE KAFIRS, AND KILLING THEM IS A HOLY CALLING, AND THEY WERE AMPLY REWARDED BY EMPERORS FOR THAT, INCLUDING AKBAR.

Uncultured, uncivilized barbarian M*****f****** excrement worms had the AUDACITY to kill innocent civilians JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE HINDUS.

The reason Muslims don't see this difference is because they are Muslims, and they dare not use their brains.


[I think that there is a difference between the early Akbar and the latter-day Akbar. As he grew older, he became less and less Muslim and more accomodative to his Hindu subjects. From what I have read, he did abolish jeziya and even banned cow slaughter. He veered from Islam and started his own religion, Din-e-Ilahi, based on elements of both Islam and Hinduism. He alienated the Mullahs who regarded him as an apostate. ]

I have read that too. And if true, he realized what a poison Islam was, and left it for something better. If that is indeed true, he deserves our forgiveness, because a person who has realized the extent of his sins and is truly repentent, is not the same person any more.

But he ONLY deserves forgiveness. NOT praise. Try murdering a thousand people and then realizing your sins. The law will still hang you.

ajmedmadani:

madani saheb, if Akbar's mother was shia and his father also shia at the time of his birth, then why and how did he become sunny? Because if had not done so, most of the subcontinental muslims would be shia today.

You need a very special kind of chutya power-worshipper to rub himself silly over the exploits of marauding cavemen. This is the kind of idiot who fantasizes about being in the presence of such 'greatness', invents daily life anecdotes about such personas and wonders about the 'paradoxes' he says he has discovered and therefore deserve a write up about them.

Very special kind of chutya...

ajeya#28:

That kind of warfare was standard for the mongols. Akbar's non-muslim ancestor, Chengez Khan, followed the same war manual.

Re: # 29 He was not Shia any time. Wise men do that drama ( as you also wrote about your grandfather story and we all feel sad how situation can make human helpless). to save situation one has to lie.
Iran ruler at that time forced him to wear "shia Cap" ( But he did not change faith/sunny) and painters of ruler painted gaily, they adorn old palace and iranian value. Memory is strange and motivating thing. Old gone empire,its failure ruler and iranians getting bouts of joy in pains and privations of emperor.Situation can make people to chage such things. Most Sikhs along indo pak border who were stranded due to vast land holdings jats had choice to become new followers or go to death and loose lands also they choose life.Today they are following new path and religion.
He officially never changed any thing just to keep inranian ruler in good mood he use to wear shia cap. ( Incidently babur was insulted same way by Iranians and he also did that drama for short time he never forgot the treatment he got).
It is not easy to accept such insult, that is reason people do to humilate others and get evil pleasure. Masses also enjoy such things and keep little things as joy in their hearts. You can see such eveil things in arjun.Whenever he gets chance tries to post surrender pictures unnecessarily. This is addiction of evil doing pleasure.

Re: # 31 Babur was related to Chengizkhan and Timurlane both warrior kings. Dr. Khan ( atom bomb) is related to Muhammad of Gazani. Dr Khan is / was amature archiology? ( Digging for old things logy) and he discoved by accident and was able to trace to his grand father in India.
He is greatest living scientist living like Humayan and insulted by rulers and made him common corroupt theief and forced him to confess by general , the galant man accepted guilt to save skins from American problems. See powerfulperson like AQ khan today they are treating like caged tighter , real tiger of pakistan who made balance of terror to stop war.

#28AJay A

I dont know if Akbar killed just b/c one was Hindu/innocent civilian.or It is your genious brain making a theory without

proving
1)Muslimalways kill innocent

2/Non muslims NEVER kill Muslims just B/c they are Muslims..Gujrat ,Hashim pura

3/Innocent are never killed by any other except Muslims

either you are blind with rage for whatever reason or fanatic communalist.

"Uncultured, uncivilized barbarian M*****f****** excrement worms had the AUDACITY to kill innocent civilians JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE HINDUS"

How can be unbiasedly prove that no /not even single innocent civilian were not killed in ANY battle including NOT only ASHOKA'S

YOU are are a ridiculous insane theorist like Hitler .

"May 17: U.S. Rep. Jack Murtha accused U.S. Marines Wednesday of killing innocent Iraqi civilians "in cold blood." NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports from the Pentagon.
Nightly News"

I am not supporting any blood thirsty be it Akbar, Amar or Anthony but kiiling some one of OTHER community is rule not exception Not religous different but within same religion among muslim..Shias /Sunnis and
among Hindus be it sate wise Hindu Killing,lingual .. sikh ONLY b/c they are sikhs?

When ppl. get MAD like you are capable of killing just b/c they are muslims too.

Keep your theory to yourself otherwise apply for P.HD in it at Benares Hindu Univ.
If you substitue Akbar with Govt sponsored like Hujrat Mumbai or Govt anywhere and opponent being of oposite of power of gov. this happens.Ranbir sena kill Dalits ONLY b/c they are Dalits .Proleteriate kill Bourgiose only b/c they are so.....

Just remember every thing comunalism ,riots, slaughter massacre are all equal oppertunity employer .

Re: # 29 Again Humayun had to wear Shia Cap.
In todays daily news about such things.
"What is shocking about Khalid is his origin in a cowherd’s home in an obscure village of Gujrat and his rise as an unaccountably brilliant boy in schools where boys were usually admitted to drop out in short order to swell the local population of boorish Muslims. Boorish because when the partition came and Hindu and Sikh neighbours and friends had to be protected, the Gujjar Muslims of Karariwala Khurd asked them to embrace Islam or die. Khalid was put off by what was happening around him, but advised them to say the kalima and save their lives.

True to reputation, the village boors would not stop there. They asked the newly converted to eat the flesh of cow to prove that they were true Muslims and not just posing. Khalid, born in 1922, had just his got his three gold medals from Government College Lahore for passing BA Honours with a first position in the province when the evil of 1947 took place. He clearly saw it as the Muslims’ darkest hour. When the converts were asked to eat beef, an eighty-year-old Hindu goldsmith got up and tried to put them to shame by narrating how good the Hindus had been as neighbours, but to no avail. They were luckily rescued by the timely arrival of a platoon of Gurkhas who took them away. Gujrat has not produced the best stock of Muslims in the world?"

#31 dost_mittar

[That kind of warfare was standard for the mongols. Akbar's non-muslim ancestor, Chengez Khan, followed the same war manual. ]

Dost-Mitter,

Your efforts to resusciate the Islamic tradition is in vain. Your logic is - other people have done similar things - so it has nothing to do with Islam par se. Unfortunately this logic is fatally flawed.

Yes, other monsters have done similar things. Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin, Genghis Khan and so on. But for each of these cases, there was a doctrine-related reason, except for Genghis Khan, for whom it was a barbaric tradition. For Hitler it was the Nazi philosophy. For Stalin - his version of Communism. For Pol Pot, his version of Communism.

For Akbar and the other Muslim kings that butchered innocent civilians just because they were Hindus - the reason was Islam.

If I were you, I'd look for another religion to cling to. Although I don't quite get why people need to cling to anything.

#34 Shah2

[I dont know if Akbar killed just b/c one was Hindu/innocent civilian.or It is your genious brain making a theory without

proving...]

Yep. I have no proof. All those refernces are just one big joke.


[..either you are blind with rage for whatever reason or fanatic communalist.]

Yes. I'm a fanatic communalist. And Akbar, who rewarded people who wanted to dye their beards with Kafir Hindu blood, is a saint.


["Uncultured, uncivilized barbarian M*****f****** excrement worms had the AUDACITY to kill innocent civilians JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE HINDUS"

How can be unbiasedly prove that no /not even single innocent civilian were not killed in ANY battle including NOT only ASHOKA'S]

Yes, I'm sure some were killed. But that would have been by collateral damage, not people going out to SPECIFICALLY kill civilians because they are of a different religion.


[YOU are are a ridiculous insane theorist like Hitler .

"May 17: U.S. Rep. Jack Murtha accused U.S. Marines Wednesday of killing innocent Iraqi civilians "in cold blood." NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports from the Pentagon.
Nightly News"]

I don't know the incident you are talking about. I would need references .

[I am not supporting any blood thirsty be it Akbar, Amar or Anthony but kiiling some one of OTHER community is rule not exception Not religous different but within same religion among muslim..Shias /Sunnis and
among Hindus be it sate wise Hindu Killing,lingual .. sikh ONLY b/c they are sikhs?]

I'm not sure if you are talking about riots or not. Riots are different, it is almost like a war or feud between two groups of people. One group avenging the death of innocent civilians committed by another group. Akbars generals were not killing the civilians to avenge for something the civilians had done. They had done nothing. They were just HIndu.

[When ppl. get MAD like you are capable of killing just b/c they are muslims too.]

You are a Muslim. You'd naturally think this way. It is in your blood.

Keep your t[heory to yourself otherwise apply for P.HD in it at Benares Hindu Univ.]

Shut the fcuk up, you pedophile worshipping cretin.


[If you substitue Akbar with Govt sponsored like Hujrat Mumbai or Govt anywhere and opponent being of oposite of power of gov. this happens.Ranbir sena kill Dalits ONLY b/c they are Dalits .Proleteriate kill Bourgiose only b/c they are so.....]

And learn to read and write first, inbred moron.

[Just remember every thing comunalism ,riots, slaughter massacre are all equal oppertunity employer .]

Don't you "Just remember" me, you idiot. Some doctrines are not equal opportunity employers. Like Nazism, Fascism, Communism, Islam etc. Not everything is the same as everything else.

What did Jews ,Palestinian do .they are in there house fighting intrusion,what did the Moors to deserve spanish inquisition?

Govt are known to manufacture reason too
dont be naive just do little more reading universally besides exclusively

In India specifically the power of Govt was instigator in 84 remeber the 'rijivs justificatio" jab bara per gire ga to dhamak hoga hi "

In Gujrat ,Mumbai ,Hashimpura to name few not only govt machiniray was involved in supporting but in most cases perpetrator are not caught or punished just golgle Tehlka report instead of History.


"I am not supporting any blood thirsty be it Akbar, Amar or Anthony" I repeat
You claim to be so innocent then why the warrior class Rajput is placed only second to Brahmin.
Gandhi had never seen Shiv Sena, Ranvir Sena, Rss Modi ,Tytler to name few to theorise Hindus are meek compared to muslim!! Yea they were and are JUSTICE OF PEACE ??Lol


Define collateral damage ? then You are justifying Naxal ,Ltte killing ,Hiroshima,christian Crusade ,
One mans collateral damage is another mans genocide.The killer shoots the target not making sure no one else is hurt .JUST concentrating on his goal.Every killer is CARPET bomber .
Killersare not trained to be surgeons to make surgical incision.All the rest are butchers only Period...

ahmedmadani # various:

Thanks. One always finds new nuggets in your posts.

Ajeya,

Its not surprising that external muslim invaders had genocidal impulses towards indians. Any external invader looks down on the natives to begin with. When the natives rebel against their aggression, that impulse gets magnified even more as the aggressor wants to make an example of them and scare every one else to just follow in line. You compound that mindset with racism against indians and religion on top of that, it is surprising that we didnt see wider massacares than what actually happened.

To be fair to the mughals, they were equally brutal when other muslims or even other mughals rebelled against them. Their culture from central asia was to brutally put down any revolt and construct towers of skulls as a deterrent to anyone else planning a revolt.

The biggest lesson that we Indians can learn from all this is to have unity amongst ourselves and with our neighbors with whom we share a similar way of life. Indians got conquered because of their fragmented caste based society compounded with bitter, petty rivalries among neighboring kings. When Ghaznavi was attacking Raja Jaipal of Kabul, the other indian kings were looking on as spectators or even applauding. Once Ghaznavi was done with the hindushahis he moved on to attack othes. Eventually the entire subcontinent fell that way. Even now, it is not surprising to read many indians enjoying the taliban suicide bombings and attacks in pakistan. If the taliban take over pakistan, wouldnt they then eventually attack India?

Ranjit, so Pakistanis will protect Indians from Talibanis because Indians and Pakistanis are ek hi ghar ke log ("share a similar way of life"), and unlike Indians, Talibanis are an alien threat to Pakistanis?

#40 Ranjit

[Its not surprising that external muslim invaders had genocidal impulses towards indians. Any external invader looks down on the natives to begin with. When the natives rebel against their aggression, that impulse gets magnified even more as the aggressor wants to make an example of them and scare every one else to just follow in line. You compound that mindset with racism against indians and religion on top of that, it is surprising that we didnt see wider massacares than what actually happened.

To be fair to the mughals, they were equally brutal when other muslims or even other mughals rebelled against them. Their culture from central asia was to brutally put down any revolt and construct towers of skulls as a deterrent to anyone else planning a revolt.

The biggest lesson that we Indians can learn from all this is to have unity amongst ourselves and with our neighbors with whom we share a similar way of life. Indians got conquered because of their fragmented caste based society compounded with bitter, petty rivalries among neighboring kings. When Ghaznavi was attacking Raja Jaipal of Kabul, the other indian kings were looking on as spectators or even applauding. Once Ghaznavi was done with the hindushahis he moved on to attack othes. Eventually the entire subcontinent fell that way. Even now, it is not surprising to read many indians enjoying the taliban suicide bombings and attacks in pakistan. If the taliban take over pakistan, wouldnt they then eventually attack India? ]


Ranjit,

I would like to ask you a personal question, if you do not mind. Privacy should not matter, because we are all anonymous here.

Do you have any kind of family connections, or any other kind of personal connections with someone who is Muslim? (I, for example, have several friends who are Muslim - but I am not talking about just friends. I am talking about a closer association)

It may be irrelevant to the topic on hand, but I am curious. I hope you will indulge me.

And by the way, Muhammad butchered 700 (or is it 900?) unarmed civilians, and set the example and tone for his followers. He was not central Asian.

Re: # 28
"This may be because they are blinkered in their way of thinking (how else could you hold a pedophile, serial rapist and serial murderer in such high esteem?)"

It is bad taste to speak of your father in such terms Ajeya...

Didn't daddy teach you this?

Re: # 37
"Shut the fcuk up, you pedophile worshipping cretin"

To address the CHOWK editor in this fashion is horrible Ajeya....

Re: # 42
"Muhammad butchered 700 (or is it 900)"

Come back with the correct figures and FACTS Islam-hater.

Re: # 15
Shah...
Completely wrong....(I think you are moslem/liar)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaturanga

Chess is kind of game of war strategy. Middle east never used elephant as part of their armed force. Chess includes elephant as one of the prominant elements (if you know chess...). I wished, middle eastern stupids/barbarians replaced elephant that with camel to make it more believable, that they have invented this game...
According to Ramayana, Ravana was taught Chess by Mandodari (his queen)...

...Mathematical knowledge spread from India to middle-east. Like chess, Kanauj is birthplace of number system...Just check the chronology..Difference will be something around 100 to 200 years (whatever Boudhayana, Aryabhatta, Brahmagupta worked on; similar stuff surfaced in middle-east after 100-200 years by al-xxxx people).
Akber had done nothing, which had positive lasting impression to large section of asia...he had milked the internal differences between Rajputs and Gujjars...
Ashoka and Alexander were kind of similar monarchs...Ashoka after Kalinga war (he had lost large number of his soldiers and killed many soldiers of Nandidev...Ashoka had brought culture of Indo-China and India closer (Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cabmodia, Vietnam, Indonesia) through Budhdhism...Alexander had brought Caucation culture to asia...

Re: # 40
Ranjit...

Even now, it is not surprising to read many indians enjoying the taliban suicide bombings and attacks in pakistan. If the taliban take over pakistan, wouldnt they then eventually attack India?

Ans: Nobody rejoice killing of civilians. The Pakistani administration created this monster, which is killing itself...
If India can sustain more than 15 years of proxy war in Kashmir, India can sustain Taliban also in western front...
Couple of positives for India...
The western states like Punjab, Gujrat, Rajasthan, Jammu region can not breed Islamic terrorism for thin muslim population and BJP govt...Have you forgot how Siv Sena chased away Dawood Ibrahim, Chhota Shakil etc.. from Mumbai?

Re: # 41
Eklavya...
Ans: Pakistan and USA for their own survival, will fight with Taliban. India may be spared for the time being. Pakistan is playing like "double crossing bast***" (slang stolen from The Good The Bad and The Ugly- Serrgio Leone.)

#45 tahir

[Come back with the correct figures and FACTS Islam-hater.]

Yes. Because I am not sure whether it is 700 or 900, therefore it makes Mo a saint instead of a mass murderer...

Don't bang your head too hard on the floor, maybe that's what's causing all this.


[To address the CHOWK editor in this fashion is horrible Ajeya....]

Horrible for whom?

[It is bad taste to speak of your father in such terms Ajeya...]

MY father? Ask your shrink to increase the dosage.

Re: # 17
CreateAlpha...
Indians were dirt poor...

Ans: Not exactly. Today, all political parties condemn caste system and social discrimination. But, if you read any pre-mediaval literature, all caste groups ( professions) used to live happily. There were no social discord (Brahmin's and banias are super rich and other's are poor). Budhdhism was silent revolution.
The problem started quite late; and common people started suffering extreamely during British period. The "Land Owner" class, they had created, were used to milk the poor working class and both have benefitted (British as well as Land Owners). British had never created environment for equitable distribution.
British contribution mostly lies in bringing back education, culture, science & engineering and to some extent discipline ( which was the greatest curse of Islam in India).....

#40 Ranjit

[Its not surprising that external muslim invaders had genocidal impulses towards indians. Any external invader looks down on the natives to begin with. When the natives rebel against their aggression, that impulse gets magnified even more as the aggressor wants to make an example of them and scare every one else to just follow in line.]

I forgot to add this. Alexander was an external invader. He did not have genocidal impulses. He did not kill Hindu civilians for any reason.

[I have the presumption to desire to dye these black mustachios and beard in infidel blood through loyalty to your Majesty's person]

Also, this is different than your Genghis Khan variety of murder and intimidation. This is religiously sanctioned and glorified butchering of Hindu "infidels" that was accepted, glorified, and rewarded by Akbar, and all the other Musla emperors.

Re: # 34
Shah...

Ranavir Sena Vs. Naxal is mostly due to land holding. It has nothing to do with caste. The land dispute is causing the problem.Poor land reforms in the region is largely responsible for this tussle.
A muslim killing other's because he does not believe that Muhammed was prophet or quoran, is Islamic killing. The blashphemy law in Pakistan or killing of Theo Van Gogh etc...are islamic killing.

Re:Eklavya#41 - "Ranjit, so Pakistanis will protect Indians from Talibanis because Indians and Pakistanis are ek hi ghar ke log ("share a similar way of life"), and unlike Indians, Talibanis are an alien threat to Pakistanis?"

Kaal, it is true that the Pakistani establishment created the Taliban as a proxy force to use for their imperial ambitions in Afghanistan and perhaps Kashmir. However, the Taliban has moved out of Pak control and has become an independent entity that has taken over large parts of the tribal areas and baluchistan. The Taliban goal is to take over Pakistan and implement their version of a shariah state. Essentially they want to change the way of life in Pakistan which is still quite open and liberal (almost hinduesque) into a ghastly version of Islamic society as per their vision.

Therefore, the transformational impact on Pakistan of a Taliban takover would be comparable to the transformational impact of a Ghaznavi takeover of the hindushahis a millenium back, in terms of the magnitude of change. Just because we have a feud with the Pak establishment over Kashmir, doesnt mean we should ignore this very real threat in our neighborhood. Imagine if these forces take over Pakistan, alter the lifestyle there and then threaten Armageddon with India using nukes!!

The good thing is that unlike a thousand years back, we have the US involved in the matter. The US understands the gravity of the situation and is actively working to shore up Pakistan against this nightmare. No wonder the jihadis in Pakistan are fuming, ranting and raving against the US. Their grand vision is getting destroyed. However, dont think for a moment that the jihadis have forgotten about India. If the US ever withdraws and Pakistan falls, their next target will be New Delhi.

Hence it is in India's self-interest to collaborate with the US and liberal elements in the Pak establishment to help out in the war against jihadis. It may not be military support but can be non-military support in terms of cooling down Indo-Pak issues, opening up trade and travel etc.

Ajeya,

Please read the following reference on Ashoka's Kalinga war -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians.

I dont want to minimize the atrocities of the muslim invaders by any means. Ghaznavi, Ghauri and others were scum of the earth. However, they didnt have a monopoly on barbarism. The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented. It didnt result in physical death but it systematically broke down the backbone of Indian society by totally fragmenting us.

#54 Ranjit

[Please read the following reference on Ashoka's Kalinga war -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians. ]

I just did.

It is said that in the aftermath of the Battle of Kalinga the Daya River running next to the battle field turned red with the blood of the slain; about 100,000 Kalinga civilians and more than 10,000 of Ashoka's own warriors were among those slain.


There is no reference given in wikipedia for that section. Any pedophile-follower could have edited it to prove that their cult is not so bad after all. I have never heard of such a thing in my life. And anyway, WHAT were the "100,000 civilians" doing next to the battlefield?

Show me actual references.

[The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented. It didnt result in physical death but it systematically broke down the backbone of Indian society by totally fragmenting us.]

Muslims like talking about the caste system. The caste system is our INTERNAL issue. WHY is it such a problem with them? It's like saying, you guys have a bad caste system - so it's okay to kill you guys.

Also, this Chowk seems to be INFESTED with "low-caste" Hindus. Are you someone with "low-caste" hangups? Because equating Hindu casteism to Muslims killing Hindus would tend to point to that. Are you a "dalit" or something?

Ajeya,

Are you a Kashmiri pundit or a Maharashtrian brahmin? Only those people are as fanatical as you are. So you think hindus never committed any atrocities against each other, Ashoka's slaughter of civilians is fabricated and caste system was an INTERNAL matter?

No wonder India is so screwed up. People like you make sure that we will always remain a divided and conquered society.

"Do you have any kind of family connections..."

"Are you a dalit or something...."

ajay bro, this technique of quickly personalizing opinions should be left to those who lack arguments. Else, others have good reason and right to throw the same back at you. This kind of dialogue helps no one.

Yaar, you, ranjit bhai, I, and everyone else knows how frustrating it is to run up against differences of opinion based on what we feel are just dogmatic beliefs. But so long as people share the same goals, we can't afford to destroy conversations by insinuating something is wrong with the other person.

(take this advice in the right spirit, man, coming as it does from a very senior citizen - or from someone who feels like one today).

Ajeya,
Pay attention to what Eklavya and Ranjit are saying .you have been nurturing hatred for too long and it has taken your shanti away.

Re: # 54
Ranjit...

The entire caste system was one of the most oppressive and barbaric social structures ever invented.

Ans: This is your perception, based on current social problems. The caste system was not imposed upon. Neither it was something, so called secular historians try to say as, imposed by aryans. Can you please explain the barbarism attached to caste system? Separating society based on skill and type of work ( specialisation) still exists. That way you have to tell the "barbaric" system IITs follow to separate Civil, Mechanical, Mettalurgy, Computer Science engineering...Each caste group used to live harmoniously for long time (close to 1000 years, without fighting with each other). Does not that prove that, there was no better alternative? Hope, you will answer...

Re: # 54
Ranjit...

Ashoka's invasion resulted in the death of 100,000 civilians.

Ans: I have serious doubt about this statement. Total casualty in Nandi Dev's side was around 100000. It was battle, not invastion of country. The place of the battle was Dhauli. Ashoka had not plundered/looted. The opponent, Nandidev had more than 60000 infantry (may be around 70000). I will try to find the proper information.

Re:nkg#59

Are you seriously comparing IIT engineering disciplines with the caste system? Are you delusional? I mean seriously dude, when I was in IIT Delhi, the CS guys used to look down on Mechanical Engineering (my discipline). But I can assure you that the CS guys didnt mind sharing the hostel mess tables with me at meal times. Sheesh!!

And no, I was not a SC-ST candidate, unlike what Ajeya might think.

Seriously though, every society has merit based divisions. No doubt about that. However, in other societies, that division is a SOFT division. People can move back and forth between professions and are not trapped in it by birth. That is the biggest weakness of the caste system. An entire group of people is condemned to do the same kind of menial work for generations no matter how much IQ that person has. That was the pernicious nature of the system. And it devastated India since it removed any incentives for people to defend their country and way of life. Most people were not stakeholders. Today our society is changing and people feel for the country because they have a stake in it. In the past, that was not the case. So when some joker rode in with his army from the north-west, only a few people put up a fight. Most people didnt give a shit, or worse converted. Thats why we got screwed.

I am amazed that I even need to explain this to you, assuming that you have anything to do with IITs.....

Re: # 61
Ranjit...

Ans: Your perception of "generation by generation" is totally wrong. People used to throw out brahmins from their caste ( out-caste) for wrong doings...Bidur's mother was from lower caste; but he was not treated badly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VW3abjIUgQ

The logistic support available at that time made it convenient for the next generation to adopt the same profession as that of parents. That is the way you learn the skill and even able to enhance it. People of same profession used to stay together to exchange their ideas and take their respective profession to higher level. This is called specialization and this model is preferred in almost all the societies. In Bengal there used to be locality based on profession called Kumor-para ( locality of potters), Chhutor-para(locality of carpenters)...
Caste system had created segmented society. But that was required...
You are looking into the caste system from the present social system. In my college (it is not IIT but mother of first IIT;IIT Kgp.
http://www.becs.ac.in), freshers used to be kept based on departments. ECE and CS people in the same room. CS and ECE people share common syllabus for first couple of years...
When brahmins started cheating other's using false ( in the guise of "God will be pleased if you do so") rituals, the society started crumbling...Caste system had not created exploitive society; otherwise it would have been destroyed long back. It had succeded in creating excellent advancements in medical science, literature, metallurgy, architecture, mathematics etc...A society can not prosper without good administrative model...
Regarding menial workers/blue color workers; their fate is similar everywhere...

Re: # 61
Ranjit...

Today our society is changing and people feel for the country because they have a stake in it. In the past, that was not the case. So when some joker rode in with his army from the north-west, only a few people put up a fight. Most people didnt give a shit, or worse converted. Thats why we got screwed.

Ans: I don't think it is matter of stake etc...It is the duty of army/kshatriyas, who are supposed to fight and they have fought. If China attacks India, will you go to battle field? No. It will be left to the military administration to recruit more people, collect ammunition and fight. We will pay extra tax. This is the way civilisation evolved. Now look at barbaric/nomadic societies (like Talibs /Afghans). They have no social divistion as they don't bother about society building. Every child are trained to loot, kill etc...
Like people working in Central Ordinance Factories in modern days,the job of blacksmiths was to manufacture better ammunition and they were engaged in that. They were not skilled or meant to fight external enemy. Shivaji ( like present day Israel) had broken this social structure and used to train every citizen in military skill. That had bourne some fruit in driving moslems away.
India lost wars, not due to internal social problem. Rather, it was the infighting between states, that has caused downfall. Whenever the Indian empire grown very large ( Maurya, Nanda etc..) external enemy failed to enter India. Alexander was stopped at the border of Nanda empire...Regarding Prithviraj Chauhan, he had defeated Muhammed Ghori in the first battle and even let him off (P O W). During the second battle, Muhammed Ghori attacked at night, which is against rule of battle at that time...

The converstion is something different. Some people, for personal gain migrate to different countries. They are of similar category of people who convert for gains.

Ranjit#53:

India cannot depend upon Pakistan to defend itself against Taleban. I agree with you that Indians should not rejoice at external enemies weakening Pakistan. But if Pakistanis want to have a taleban-type govt., it's their right and privilege to do so. India's defence is India's responsibility and it should be prepared for all eventualities, including the possibility of a taleban type govt. there. In any case, I am doubtful if a taleban govt. would be any more hostile to India than the Pakistani establishment has been for most of that country's existence.

Regarding the caste system, you are right that a soft division was there in all societies (even today, you have occupation-origin names like Carpenter, Silversmith, Goldsmith, etc.). The crucial difference was the endogamous nature of the caste system, which prevented inter-caste mobility.

nkg, problems start when we get into comparing different societies using specific metrices and deliberate mischaracterization. So let's ignore other societies and claims entirely, and focus only the Indian society. Let's compare ourselves to ourselves - with what we could have done differently, IF we could hypothetically re-live that collective life.

A LOT of what you argue - about task specialization, about inter-caste mobility, about people's own perception, and about societal stability - is true. And one can also accept that people doing menial work are pretty much damned everywhere.

IMHO, we went wrong somewhere along the way when specialization became endogamous (as dm ji has explained) and got further mixed up with untouchability.

Indians had alawys been obsessed with 'cleanliness' and extensive untouchability was practised even within homes - without taking bath (or under all kinds of conditions) you couldn't touch this or that, or enter the kitchen, or touch an elder, and so on, even if you were a family member. This idea got badly deformed when it got associated with whole groups of people for all times.

That created severe disadvantages for the 'untouchables'. (Again, no comparisons across societies). When people got defined as untouchables, they were deliberately kept away from most social intercourse, and deprived of opportunities more comprehensively than would have been the case with any simple stratification system (Again, I am making no comparisons across societies).

If you look at ancient (Indian ancient is real old) literature, accounts of Chinese travellers, for instance, there is no mention of untouchability. When untouchability began the number of 'untouchabales' was probably small, so someone had to be a chandala to be untouchable in Shankara's time. This ailment grew with greater group specialization and forced segregation (I am speculating here).

Untouchability was wrong because it restricted and demeaned the individual far too severely by OUR OWN STANDARDS and by OUR OWN MORAL LIGHTS. Nothing could bring that point home more clearly and tellingly than the fact of shankara falling at the chandala's feet and begging forgiveness (in ancient days), and Baba Sahib's great life and contributions to our national life (in more modern times), inspite of all the charges that some have (understandably but not very generously) levied against him.

In both these cases, we see India rising above its mistakes (as also with the gradual empowerment of 'lower castes' today).


-----------------

dm ji, ranjit makes a sharp distinction between Pakistani people and establishment, and between Pakistani people and Jihadis/Talibanis. He sees Pakistani people as Hindusque, who have a natural affinity for Hindus, instead of for Talibanis and for Pakistani establishment. In this view, the latter two follow unfriendly ties against Hindus against the will of Pakistani people, and that too, only because of Kashmir. Given a chance, Pakistani people will throw out the dual yoke of Pakistani establishment and Talibanis, and will join hands with Hindus to create an overall Hindusque way of life for everyone.

It's just different perception. Yet, IMO, ranjit might agree that whatever the case and reality, it might be better to focus on one's own defense, relying not the least on anyone else.

Perhaps the difference is that he also wants to go and actually help what he sees as Hindusque elements in Pakistan as a form of defense. So long as we/he allow(s) for the possibility that one's assessment of others may not be entirely accurate, and one is willing to assume all attendant risks, there should be no problem.

Re: # 65
Ekalavya...

nkg, problems start when we get into comparing different societies using specific metrices and deliberate mischaracterization.

Ans: I have no hate for Mongols/Pathans or nomands. Most of the human (for that matter creatures) is influenced by God/nature. Where nature is generous, people have built excellent civilisation and become more sophisticated and lenient. Most of the great civilisations were built around river and based on agriculture. I consider nomadic life is little inferior to the settled life. But that does not make them object of hate.
Coming to caste system, it was prevalent in every civil society. It was part of social evolution. The way it is presented today, specially in political context, it was not so, when it was originated. The brahmins confined knowledge of Vedas with them, as it was required that time. It was supposed to be maintained in pure form to avoid distortion. Now, with advanced logistic support,everything changed and we have started condemning our own past, without trying to understand, where,when and how we have deviated...

In Europe, Swastika means Hitler. Is it so? I will tell (from Da Vinci Code), most of our probems are derived from "historical distortions", and the present form, which is represented to us. Caste system is not the source of India's downfall. It is the deviation from discipline, India is suffering for.

#56 Ranjit

[Are you a Kashmiri pundit or a Maharashtrian brahmin? Only those people are as fanatical as you are.]

Listen, JNU-clone garbage. Marthi brahmins or Kashmiri Pandits never killed anybody. Your Islamic m.f brothers did.

The surest sign of fanaticism is when people tend to avoid objective discussions, and prefer to call the opponent names. As an example, you were unable to give refernces to Ashoka killing civilians, but don't mind using this piece of unreferenced fabrication to defend your Musla buddies.

[So you think hindus never committed any atrocities against each other, Ashoka's slaughter of civilians is fabricated and caste system was an INTERNAL matter?]

It's not important what I think. What is important is that you are unable to provide any historical refernces in this regard. And I have provided dozens, and could provide many dozen more.

[No wonder India is so screwed up. People like you make sure that we will always remain a divided and conquered society.]

No. Cowardly traitors like you will make sure that India remains a country where Muslas can use their divisive politics, constant violence and continuous complaining to convert take away the peace of all Indians.

#57 Eklavya

[ajay bro, this technique of quickly personalizing opinions should be left to those who lack arguments. Else, others have good reason and right to throw the same back at you. This kind of dialogue helps no one.

Yaar, you, ranjit bhai, I, and everyone else knows how frustrating it is to run up against differences of opinion based on what we feel are just dogmatic beliefs. But so long as people share the same goals, we can't afford to destroy conversations by insinuating something is wrong with the other person.

(take this advice in the right spirit, man, coming as it does from a very senior citizen - or from someone who feels like one today).]

Co-liberal to the rescue!

Listen, it does not matter if I am the biggest scum on earth.

To an objective person it should ONLY matter that I am able to back up my arguments about Muslims, and Ranjit is not.

It will not escape the notice of OBJECTIVE people that this Ranjit character is UNABLE to provide ANY references to back up his Ashoka story.

There is a reason (an OBJECTIVE reason) that I feel like cursing these holier-than-thou self-glorifying m*****f*****s.

nkg, the only reason one can have reservations against the caste system is that it hurt people and went against our own basic ethical ideas. If one 'fixs things' merely for political reasons then one is not fixing them at all - only being opportunistic at a time and place. So I don't think of it as a political issue but a moral and ethical one.

-------------------

ajeya, are you going to address yourself ONLY to congenitally objective people? There are very very few people of that kind.

eklavya#63:

One should never underestimate the emotional appeal of "Pakistan ka matalab kya?" for Pakistanis, not just the establishment.

Re:nkg - "Caste system is not the source of India's downfall."

This is really laughable. Who know how the caste system started and what were its noble intentions regarding division of labor. The fact is that it led to severe perversions in Indian society and destroyed any semblence of India having an egalitarian society. I am sure you will have no interest in swapping castes with a lower caste person, even today when it might actually give you a benefit of reservations.

As far as you saying that only Kshatriyas were supposed to fight external enemies, it is again an amazing assertion. My friend, when an invader takes over your country, every able bodied man and woman needs to jump in and defend their country. Even if the army fails, people should form guerilla forces and attack and attack the invaders till they are thrown out. Shivaji is a perfect example. Just look at other countries in the world that got conquered. Any self-respecting people would fight back by creating a resistance movement. It is sad that Indian society would withstand centuries of imperial rule without any mass scale resistance. That is a telling indictment of our society. It has nothing to do with lack of courage since I believe that all humans are same. It is just that the social structure was such that it was not worth fighting for. Large numbers of people belonging to lower castes or backward castes did not care who ruled them since they never had a share of the spoils to begin with.

Ajeya,

Please carry on playing the victim card.

It is easy to blame external aggression since that is convenient and provides a good emotional trip for a while. What is the big deal in blaming exteranal aggressors anyway? Is it surprising that they attacked us, slaughtered us and enslaved us? What did you expect them to do? Join hands and sing cumbaya with the natives?

Its far more challenging to honestly analyze root causes of our downfall, how vast millions of people were subjugated to external imperial rule for centuries and how do we prevent this to happen again in our future generations. Thats a difficult conversation since one has to admit to one's own shortcomings first.

Also DO NOT use obscenities in your interactions with me. I can get down to that level too and tear you apart but I would prefer to keep things civil.

Ranjit, one possible explanation is that there was no 'nationalism' then just as there was little religionism.

Kings did their things - maintained political and civil control, did some good (or bad) if they could for their peoples, but generally left the common man alone, even in wars. "What difference does it make to us, who the king is?" was the more general populace's attitude. People moved about reasonably freely, being bothered by only a few spies when they passed over to new 'states.'

It shouldn't mean that the place was not developed. It was. (There is an excellent map of some of the ancient cities here - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/EpicIndiaCities.jpg). But people had evolved a culture that did not consider one state to be fundamentally different from another state - enough to be exclusively identified with(just as one religious path not all that different from another path - not enough to be collectively identified with).

All these things broke down with the arrival of Islam first, and Europeans later.

(It's quite possible that the caste system had a significant role in promoting that view. People saw themselves primarily not as citizens of this or that state, or of this or that religion, but by their assumed role in society - a brahmin seeing himself as a priest or a teacher, a vaisya as a trader and so on.)

#72 Ranjit

[Please carry on playing the victim card.]

Ranjit,

I'll try this just once with you.

Okay, so let's suppose I am the scum of the earth, and you are a level-headed, rational human being.

Now that that is behind us, I am hereby REQUESTING you, IN A CIVIL MANNER, to kindly put up your evidence - in the way of REFERENCES, that proves that Ashoka killed millions of civilians.

You have said a lot of things, and made many theoretical statements, about many things. I will not hold that against you provided you do the decent thing, and put up the evidence.

Because you are presumably an objective person, I hope you will not insult my intelligence and refuse to provide the evidence. I'll wait for your response.

As you have pointed out already, I am an uncivil person, and naturally you don't want me to do what comes naturally to me, and treat you in an uncivil manner. So kindly provide the evidence. I'm sure you would not want to provoke me by not doing so.

(I want a proper reference, not a UNREFERENCED paragraph from wikipedia)


Thank you.

#69 Eklavya

[ajeya, are you going to address yourself ONLY to congenitally objective people? There are very very few people of that kind.]

This is unfortunately the truth. But I don't come on Chowk to pass the time chatting. In fact, I am so short of time nowadays that even the few minutes I spend on Chowk are becoming prohibitive. It does not matter to me if idiots perceive me as an idiot. I have too much contempt for them to waste time thinking about their emotional state.

There is a game you find in entertainment parks in the US. There is a board with a number of holes, and little puppets pop up from different holes at random. They give you a hammer to bang the puppets on the heads the moment they pop out. You play against someone else, and whoever bangs in the most number of puppets within a fixed period of time, wins. My visits to Chowk are like that. Clueless idiots with pet theories unsupported by facts, raise their ugly heads at random. It is a pleasure to hammer those idiot heads right back into whatever hole they came from.

Of course, I realize that just as in that game, these idiots never learn from their failure to support their own theories, and pop back up again after a while. So there is really no overall objective to this game I play on Chowk - idiots always stay idiots. It is just the pleasure of hammering them on the heads with logic and facts, and watching them disappear for a while, that makes it worth it. And like all games, it really does not accomplish anything.

Kaal,

I understand what you are saying. But consider the events a 1000 years back. Ghaznavi comes over and sacks Somnath temple slaughtering thousands. Then he leaves his representatives to govern Punjab. Why wouldnt the rest of Indian kings get together and unite to expel him? Why wouldnt all hindus feel strongly enough to pick up arms and retaliate?

Note that once hindus did get united and pulled together, albeit after conversion to sikhism, they were able to give a very strong answer to aggression. In fact, the sikhs went all the way to Ghazni, plundered the place and brought back the gates of Somnath temple that Ghaznavi had taken there.

So why were hindus utterly unable or unwilling to defend themselves as hindus but were perfectly capable of giving a strong response as sikhs? That goes towards my argument about the problems with our society as hindus.

#76 Ranjit

[So why were hindus utterly unable or unwilling to defend themselves as hindus but were perfectly capable of giving a strong response as sikhs? That goes towards my argument about the problems with our society as hindus. ]

Since you are logged in right now, would you be so kind as to give me a response to my polite question? That would be my post #74.

Thanking you,

Sincerely,

Ajeya

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Re: # 78 ajey
I am always on the treetop watching insects like you on the ground.

The only way to talk to you 'A gay A' And nkg(gandu )at your putrid level
you rat worshipping rat themselves,penis monkey worshipping dark madrasi heng smelling pea brain retard turd is all code coolie is that you can say for your self !

#79 treetop

[I am always on the treetop watching insects like you on the ground. ]

Pedophile-worshipping worms watching insects? Hmmmm.... Isn't your time better spent trolling for underage kids?

#80 Shah2

[The only way to talk to you 'A gay A' And nkg(gandu )at your putrid level you rat worshipping rat themselves,penis monkey worshipping dark madrasi heng smelling pea brain retard turd is all code coolie is that you can say for your self ! ]

My my... What language! What would your mothers say!

Mr. Ajey,
You can think what Mr. Ranjit wrote. Here only rational and mature and with wisdom from India are firstly DM followed by Ranjit. He has written correct ,India need to support pakistan ( indirectly without making noise as it will be akward situation for GOP and GOI also). Pakistan is leader of Ummah and if you want good relationship with Ummah the road is through Pakistan. Pakistni Tabliban is on loose and have captured territory and they have following amoung general people. As its hard to have good opinion about corrouption soaked and corrouption dripping all politicians. ( little corrouption is fine if it helps to run nation as then its lubrication, some times I explained difference corrouption and Lubrication). Pakistan is ke