In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful

treetop #755 It is indeed a nauseating spectacle..

Salim_Chauhan#669:

[warning: long post]

" In the case of the Dalit boy marrying a Brahmin girl, wouldn't it be wonderful and fair if the Dalit boy could convert to Brahmin, just by saying a few words, and be completely accepted by his in-laws?"

I am for a casteless society where there are no brahmins and no dalits, so there will be no need for "conversion" even if that concept can be translated to caste.

This is not an empty dream. Our Pakistani friends underestimate the evolution through which the Hindu society has been going through over the last sixty years; these changes are more profound than any changes in the last thousands of years. Most of us are aware of the changes in the laws and political set-us, so I will concentrate on the social aspects.

My parents were married (arranged) not only within the Khatri caste but also within a small circle of sub-castes of khatris; I too was married to another khatri (semi-arranged) but outside the narrow circle of subcastes; my younger brother could have married to a khatri or arora; my nephews and nieces have married to non-khatris including, brahmins, OBCs and, in one case, even a Muslim. All these wedding ceremonies were performed by a brahmin priest. I am quite optimistic that if the society continues to change at this rate, caste might become irrelevant in another sixty years.

What about dalits? None of my nephews and nieces have yet married a dalit, but this too is a matter of time. There is no dearth of priests who would agree to perform the wedding of a brahmin with a dalit [contrast that to a mullah; no mullah will be willing to perform the wedding of a muslim girl with a non-muslim boy; didn't do a thousand years ago and probably won't do in another hundred years]. And such marriages, though rare, are taking places at an increasing rate. Many dalit IAS officers and IIT graduates end up marrying someone from an upper caste; in other words economic ladder also provides a ladder up the caste ladder.

I would suggest that anyone who wants to confirm what I have said should visit some matrimonial sites and notice ads that say "caste-no-bar" (and frequently identifying their own caste so the people should not think that they are low caste themselves).

Admittedly, what I have said applies largely to cities, who are the leading edge of social change, but things are changing in villages, too, though with a lot more resistance. The violent caste-clashes that are reported from rural India are a symptom of this change and resistance to change.

arjun writes "Your hero, ZA Bhutto, was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of bengalis..and yet nobody was even tried for that."

Now, why bring up ZAB on this board? Whatever he did or did not do, one thing is certain, nobody who was not wearing a general's uniform had anything to do with the Bengali carnage. You call it spin, I call it fact, and on your so-called "fact", I say BS because you're an ignorant fool who has no clue regarding the political/military relationship in Pakistan....And for your kind information, he was my "hero" ONLY to the extent of incorporating the people of Pakistan into the power equation, bringing social issues and not a misuse of Islam to the fore, and unaligning Pakistan from being a whore to the neocolonials to the most unaligned it ever became since its inception to date...regarding the rest, I don't give a damn even if he butchered his mama..........

tahir Saheb,

No shanti for these bastards. Only chitas'.

Re: # 749
"You guys expect us to understand Arabish translation of Koran. Without cultural backgound you expect us to understand.."

Mr. Guru, if you're merely having a good time abusing Islam, then stop right here. You are supposed to understand this SYSTEM that challenges all others on many unique counts. This is not communism or some other 'ism'.

You must read the Book and find your answers before accusing Muslims. Do you have a decent Muslim friend? Do ask him, instead of unloading your venom at CHOWK. If you have a specific question , I'll be glad to answer.

"We see u are against the whole humanity with your suras and are waving in front of the most weak of the world. Infront of the powerful u put your suras up your own shit hole."

This is a very crude way to put it. Exactly where have you observed the phenomenon? The next time you're facing Durga or whoever, do ask her to bless you with a sweet tongue and an understanding mind.

Shaanti for now.

#760 Posted by guru,

Abey chutya wtf are you whining about? As another 'guru' of Chowk said "You can't shout 'Nigga' in a room full of Niggas! They will tear you apart. And rightly so!

Azra,

When are you going to write about Jagdeesh Kumar? Do something about poor Hindu Haris.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999357/posts

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:47:55 AM by Cronos

LAHORE: In yet another case of religious persecution of the minorities in Pakistan, a Hindu was beaten to death in the port city Karachi by dozens of his Muslim co-workers at a leather factory for uttering blasphemous remarks about Prophet Muhammad.

The incident took place in a factory in Sector 15 of the Korangi Industrial Area, after a discussion about religion became heated between Jagdish Kumar and his Muslim co-workers.

According to the Karachi police sources, Jagdish, a 25-year-old resident Mirpurkhas, was tortured to death on Tuesday over allegations that he spoke against the sanctity of the Prophet Muhammed.

According to Farrukh Bashir, the police superintendent for the Korangi area, the angry mob at the leather factory kept beating Jagdish for almost half an hour and left him only after someone pointed out that he had died. However, they even tried to burn his body.

The local police reached the place after they were called by someone in the factory.
The police officer said that the atmosphere in and outside the factory was highly charged and it was a tough task for police to take the body out of the factory.

To a question, he said the doctors who conducted autopsy of the deceased at the Jinnah Postgraduate Medical Centre in Karachi, Jagdish Kumar seems to have been beaten to death as his dead body had multiple marks of torture and injuries caused by hard objects.

He said no-one had been detained for questioning so far as any action could only be taken when a case is registered and a conclusion is reached on the basis of the autopsy report and investigations. He, however, admitted that Jagdish’s killing was a case of intentional murder, rather one of death in a brawl.

However, Raju, the brother-in-law of the victim, has demanded of the Korangi police officials that the killing must be investigated and his co-workers should be taken into custody and interrogated, because no-one can even think of uttering blasphemous remarks against the Prophet Mohammad in a Muslim society.

He has maintained that the murder had nothing to do with religion and it could have been the result of a personal feud. “Jagdish was a simple man who knew little about religion. He had come to Karachi to earn a living and not to indulge in debates over religion.”

However, in the Pakistani society, it is easy to kill someone from the minority community and then accuse him of having committed blasphemy. Blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan, although no one has ever been executed for it, while communal tensions often run high whenever accusations of blasphemy are made.

The blasphemy law allows a person to register a case against anyone for blaspheming the Prophet Muhammad by word or deed.

============
Then this

About 40 Hindu employees of a factory here, one of whose same faith colleagues was killed for allegedly passing blasphemous remarks about Prophet Mohammed, have been barred from entering their place of work after some members of the community tried to register a case regarding the murder.

The workers are all residents of Marwari Mohalla and neighbours of 22-year-old Jagdish Kumar, who was killed on April 8 by his other colleagues in factory. They have been restricted from entering Nova Industries in the Korangi industrial area here by the factory's management.

The move came after some members of the Hindu community tried to register a case regarding Jagdish's death with police, Lyari town Minority Councillor Ratan Kumar said.

"Since Jagdish's murder on April 8, the factory van has not come to pick the workers from this vicinity and the workers fear they have lost their jobs. They have been receiving reports from their Muslim co-workers that the management of the factory has fired them all in reaction to Jagdish's alleged blasphemous remarks," Ratan Kumar told The News daily.

Heightening apprehensions in this regard is the fact that that no member of the factory's management came to Jagdish's house to condole his death, his family said. The Hindu workers from Marwai Mohalla also did not go to the factory last week to get their weekly wages.

Hindus in the Marwari Mohalla, home to about 2,000 registered voters, fear for their lives after the murder of Jagdish.
Ratan Kumar said most young men are now staying indoors as they fear "negative repercussions" after Jagdish's death.

The neighbours of Jagdish and his brother-in-law Om Prakash, who returned from the victim's hometown of Mirpurkhas on Saturday after his cremation, blamed the factory's management and police officials for his death.

Prakash said they did not intervene at the right time. Jagdish, he said, was a dedicated and responsible employee at the factory and the management had assigned him to head a team of workers that included Muslims.

"He often shared with me how some of his Muslim colleagues never approved of the idea of a Hindu heading their team and frequently discriminated against him, which used to upset him but he refrained from fighting back," said Prakash.

"I am sure they took some personal revenge. I simply cannot believe my bother-in-law could utter anything against the Holy Prophet whom we all respect."

Jagdish's father Prabhu Ji said he did not understand what his son "did to deserve such a brutal death". More than Jagdish's death, his family is shocked by the brutality of his murder.

"He was stabbed in the left eye with a screwdriver and his back was stabbed with scissors. They also beat his head with some hard object till he died," Prakash said.

A medico-legal report from the hospital to which Jagdish's body was taken said his death occurred due to "acute head injury resulting from hard and blunt objects".

He was the youngest of eight siblings and had moved to Karachi three years ago in search of a better career. "In Mirpurkhas, he was earning only Rs 50 per day so they sent him to Karachi to live with me," said Prakash. Jagdish was earning about Rs 200 a day in Karachi.

or the follower is judged by the religion?

Studebakers post have disappered.
Wonder why ,
cant he refute all the Masadis psychotic 'irrational' behavior of manic depressive syndrome.

I MAY NOT AGREE WITH FEMINISTS OR WOMEN LIB.BUT GOING TO EXTREMISM OF RELIGION IN ORDER TO PRESENT U R ARGUMENT?THERE IS THIS DUAL VIEW CONCERNING IS RELIGION TO BE JUDGED NOT BY ITS FOLLOWER OR RELIGION IS JUDGED BY ITS FOLOWER .
soory the cap was accidently pushed.

#731 Posted by masadi on April 26, 2008 3:12:22 am

Your hero, ZA Bhutto, was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of bengalis..and yet nobody was even tried for that...spin that all you want but those are the FACTS..

I mean:

The book takes so much space in gullible Muslim mind that there is no room left to receive inspiration and new ideas. Is there practices for meditation in Islam? I guess not. More Iranians and Pakis attend Maharshi university in Fairfield Iowa than Indians. There could be visa reason.

Meditative practices cannot help in populating legions. So they have to come up with written code to please the Arabic god. With this understanding read:

If her father had been frustrated at her unwillingness to marry, and angry with the company she kept, hearing his own daughter praise Guru Hargobind sent him into a fit of rage. He yelled at her, “You are an infidel. You are praising an infidel. You do not obey the law of Muhammad – because under that law – to praise an unbeliever is to carry the penalty of death.”

Kaulan replied, “Oh father. Dear father. Muhammad’s law does not apply to holy men. Just as it does not apply to me. It only applies to fools who don’t know anything else and can’t obey anything else. Saints are God’s servants. God obeys the saints – and they may do what they please. They have no reason to be concerned about the laws of Muhammad.”

Rustam Khan continued in his rage, and his daughter continued in the Guru’s defense. Finally, insane with anger, Rustam Khan left the house and convened a court of his fellow Muslim judges. That very day, he secured an order to have his own daughter put to death for praising an infidel and refusing to obey Muhammad’s law.

For days now, I have paused here. Wondering what to write next. This moment – this passage – touches me so deeply. In this disagreement between father and daughter we can see the entire fractured psyche of the human race when it comes to matters of wealth, power, influence, truth, love and daughters.

There is the ego of the man – or perhaps more fairly one should say – the ego of the one who holds the position of power. There is the perspective of the spirit of one who does not hold the power. There is a moment where spirit and ego clash. And then – there is a will to violence.

The father who cannot hear the voice of his daughter’s spirit. The judge who follows something blindly in order to preserve a tradition . The tradition that does not allow for the spirit to directly perceive the truth – but rather says – if you do not see things this particular way – you must be wrong, and the penalty for seeing things differently is to be: ostracized, abandoned, rejected, denied work, denied food, denied security, jailed, tortured, killed…

We see it all around us – in every court, every company, every country – this play being acted out. Where Spirit speaks truly. And truth is denied. Power used to silence it. And yes – let us say that in this Kali Yug, it can happen that the worst perpetrators of this silencing are sometimes those who do so in the name of religion.

As in the home, so in the society. What touches me most about Kaulan is how completely contemporary and relevant her plight is – though perhaps it was more deadly then than now. If the voice of the daughter speaks the truth. And the voice of the father comes from ego. And the daughter has to choose between violence and silence – what possible hope is there for the world? How can institutions of power function properly when the fundamental power relationship – the relationship between the vulnerable daughter and the father charged with a duty to protect – is trapped in this game?

Re: # 752
This view is not exactaly a treet to my eyes,mostly i just take a peak and turn my eyes away.

Masadi

You are yet another Hizda Paki long on bombastic words and political verbiage and short on quest for learning.

The book takes so much space in gullible Muslims that there is no room for new receiving inspiration and ideas. Is there meditation in Islam? I guess not. More Iranians and Pakis attend Maharshi university in Fairfield Iowa than Indians. There could be visa reason.

Masadi,

You never answered:
Re: # 513: Masadi you have ideas to offer.

Let's see....
"Honor killing has absolutely nothing to do with "Muslim", it is more a factor of the social structure, most tightly knit premodern communities do the same with both sexes when group rules/honor is affected, modern societies lay whole countries to waste defending their "honor" in popular slogans behind which ulterior motives lurk. This swine (hamid) has no clue about what he claims."

Suppose a Muslim girl loves a non Muslim boy and would like to marry her. Tell me how this union will happen and proceed.

As per my knowledge the boy has to get converted to Islam. Is that true? If he does not then what happens.

Does this scenario fall in honor? It may not be family one ...it could be of Muslim community. Do you absolutely mean your first absolute statement?

Have we heard a Hindu Hari girl's parent killing her when she is kidnapped, converted and married to a Muslim? Are they modern and belong to elite defense colony structure?

Why Hindu girls are kidnapped, converted and married off in Pakistan? Can they revert back to Hinduism with their husband?

I would like to learn.


I guess this you could understand than the philosophical search for the root cause of Honor an Violent Killings.

treetop: you could say that i guess - where else but on chowk would you see such refinements of mother nature as Masadizilla and Guruthra..

ps: does a treetop view of Masadizilla tearing through the tropical jungle in blind rage cost extra?

When religion became business and power broker Honor started corrupting faithfuls. Now read. "

Rustam Khan continued in his rage, and his daughter continued in the Guru’s defense. Finally, insane with anger, Rustam Khan left the house and convened a court of his fellow Muslim judges. That very day, he secured an order to have his own daughter put to death for praising an infidel and refusing to obey Muhammad’s law.

For days now, I have paused here. Wondering what to write next. This moment – this passage – touches me so deeply. In this disagreement between father and daughter we can see the entire fractured psyche of the human race when it comes to matters of wealth, power, influence, truth, love and daughters.

There is the ego of the man – or perhaps more fairly one should say – the ego of the one who holds the position of power. There is the perspective of the spirit of one who does not hold the power. There is a moment where spirit and ego clash. And then – there is a will to violence.

The father who cannot hear the voice of his daughter’s spirit. The judge who follows something blindly in order to preserve a tradition . The tradition that does not allow for the spirit to directly perceive the truth – but rather says – if you do not see things this particular way – you must be wrong, and the penalty for seeing things differently is to be: ostracized, abandoned, rejected, denied work, denied food, denied security, jailed, tortured, killed…

We see it all around us – in every court, every company, every country – this play being acted out. Where Spirit speaks truly. And truth is denied. Power used to silence it. And yes – let us say that in this Kali Yug, it can happen that the worst perpetrators of this silencing are sometimes those who do so in the name of religion."