In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful
Azra Rashid April 20, 2008
#990 Posted by ajeya on April 29, 2008 12:44:09 pm
misc. by tahir
tahir,
Anger comes from fear. Look at Urstruly. He knows that. So he controls his anger so as not to betray his fear. Salim tries too, but is not always successful.
tahir,
Anger comes from fear. Look at Urstruly. He knows that. So he controls his anger so as not to betray his fear. Salim tries too, but is not always successful.
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#989 Posted by ajeya on April 29, 2008 12:41:03 pm
#988 Urstruly
[For arguments sake, from secular point of view, there cannot be a moral dilemma - labels are just that, labels. ]
Who's talking about a "dilemma"? (A Freudian slip, perhaps? :-))
And you have no problems assigning all kinds of "labels" to all kinds of people at other times.
So why can't you put the label now? I'll repeat the question for your convenience:
IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?
[For arguments sake, from secular point of view, there cannot be a moral dilemma - labels are just that, labels. ]
Who's talking about a "dilemma"? (A Freudian slip, perhaps? :-))
And you have no problems assigning all kinds of "labels" to all kinds of people at other times.
So why can't you put the label now? I'll repeat the question for your convenience:
IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?
#988 Posted by Urstruly on April 29, 2008 12:33:30 pm
Re: # 982
For arguments sake, from secular point of view, there cannot be a moral dilemma - labels are just that, labels.
For arguments sake, from secular point of view, there cannot be a moral dilemma - labels are just that, labels.
#986 Posted by tahir on April 29, 2008 12:01:35 pm
Re: # 959
A-gay-a,
Stop this hypothetical non-sense!
And let your dog take you on a walk to the nearest ditch.
A-gay-a,
Stop this hypothetical non-sense!
And let your dog take you on a walk to the nearest ditch.
#985 Posted by tahir on April 29, 2008 12:01:14 pm
Re: # 959
A-gay-a,
Stop this hypothetical non-sense!
And let your dog take you on a walk to the nearest ditch.
A-gay-a,
Stop this hypothetical non-sense!
And let your dog take you on a walk to the nearest ditch.
#984 Posted by tahir on April 29, 2008 11:54:23 am
Re: # 949
"Tahir, I am proud to address you as a brother."
Your re-affirmation has been noted with great satisfaction! Woe to the blasphemers...
Thanks again!
"Tahir, I am proud to address you as a brother."
Your re-affirmation has been noted with great satisfaction! Woe to the blasphemers...
Thanks again!
#983 Posted by tahir on April 29, 2008 11:48:49 am
Re: # 945
Nice try fake god!
The Qur'an is THE guidance, not the hadith literature.
Nice try fake god!
The Qur'an is THE guidance, not the hadith literature.
#982 Posted by ajeya on April 29, 2008 11:46:46 am
#980 Posted by Urstruly
Hey Urstruly,
IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?
Note that I said "for argument's sake".
Hey Urstruly,
IF (for argument's sake) Mohammad had proposed marriage to Ayesha when she was 6 years old, would THAT make him a pedophile?
Note that I said "for argument's sake".
#981 Posted by tahir on April 29, 2008 11:45:22 am
Re: # 940
Thanks for letting me save some energy typing the same conclusion!
Thanks for letting me save some energy typing the same conclusion!
#980 Posted by Urstruly on April 29, 2008 11:33:15 am
Re: # 978
Ahadith about the age of Ayesha (RA) are verbatim quotes of Mother Ayesha herself. They come from authenticated and verified set of Ahadith. Earlier Muslims made their utmost effort to authenticate ahadith as was humanly possible at that time. Therefore I have no doubt in my mind that the Ahadith that are verbatim quote of Mother Ayesha (RA) are correct.
However, I do agree with the notion that at the age of their marriage Mother Ayesha would have been close to 15 or 16. The glaring evidence come from another Hadith where it mentions how Mother Ayesha (RA) was first noticed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). This hadith describes the time when Holy Prophet (pbuh) along with his family was exiled from Mecca and confined in a canyon called Canyon of Sha'ab-abi-Talib outside the city where they all remained under severe hardship for close to three years. At that time it was forbidden for all people of Mecca to make any contact with the prisoners and provide food or clothing to them. During that period of confinement it was Mother Ayesha who sometimes used to sneak in some food and water into the canyon. But not only that she would also provide news and happenings in the city to the prisoners. Our Holy prophet (pbuh) was quite impressed by the intelligence of that girl and how she had complete understanding of the situation. Now if we take those ahadith that quote Ayesha (ra) as saying that she was 6 years old at the time of marriage, then that puts Ayesha's age at the time of confinement in the Canyon close to 3.5 to 4 years. I do not think that a child 3.5 - 4 years old, no matter how smart, has the physical capability to take food and water close to 2-3 km outside the city. Therefore my assessment as well of many others is that Ayesha was a much older person at the time of her marriage, probably close 15 years and when marriage was consumed she might be close to 18.
But here is a point I like to make is that I have no doubt in mind that the hadith quoting Ayesha are absolutely accurate, but I think our mother may not have been able to assess her own age accurately. This is quite plausible taking into accounta time about 1500 years ago.
Another plausibility is that she might have assessed her age accurately but we think in term of Gregorian Calendars where a year is 365 days. As far as I know the commonly used calendar in those days was the Jewish calendar where the number of months in each caledar year were arbitrarily chosen on the descretion of high preist. Some of their years were stretched over 20 months or so. In those days some of the months in the calendar were considered sacred when all wars were put to stop but when Jews used to see that they had a chance of winning they would drag the months longer so that they could bring the war to conclusion. Allah specifically forbade this practice through Qura'n (I don't remember the verse) but it provides evidence that it is not prudent to compare the length of years in that era with the years in the Gregorian or Lunar calendars of today.
Ahadith about the age of Ayesha (RA) are verbatim quotes of Mother Ayesha herself. They come from authenticated and verified set of Ahadith. Earlier Muslims made their utmost effort to authenticate ahadith as was humanly possible at that time. Therefore I have no doubt in my mind that the Ahadith that are verbatim quote of Mother Ayesha (RA) are correct.
However, I do agree with the notion that at the age of their marriage Mother Ayesha would have been close to 15 or 16. The glaring evidence come from another Hadith where it mentions how Mother Ayesha (RA) was first noticed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). This hadith describes the time when Holy Prophet (pbuh) along with his family was exiled from Mecca and confined in a canyon called Canyon of Sha'ab-abi-Talib outside the city where they all remained under severe hardship for close to three years. At that time it was forbidden for all people of Mecca to make any contact with the prisoners and provide food or clothing to them. During that period of confinement it was Mother Ayesha who sometimes used to sneak in some food and water into the canyon. But not only that she would also provide news and happenings in the city to the prisoners. Our Holy prophet (pbuh) was quite impressed by the intelligence of that girl and how she had complete understanding of the situation. Now if we take those ahadith that quote Ayesha (ra) as saying that she was 6 years old at the time of marriage, then that puts Ayesha's age at the time of confinement in the Canyon close to 3.5 to 4 years. I do not think that a child 3.5 - 4 years old, no matter how smart, has the physical capability to take food and water close to 2-3 km outside the city. Therefore my assessment as well of many others is that Ayesha was a much older person at the time of her marriage, probably close 15 years and when marriage was consumed she might be close to 18.
But here is a point I like to make is that I have no doubt in mind that the hadith quoting Ayesha are absolutely accurate, but I think our mother may not have been able to assess her own age accurately. This is quite plausible taking into accounta time about 1500 years ago.
Another plausibility is that she might have assessed her age accurately but we think in term of Gregorian Calendars where a year is 365 days. As far as I know the commonly used calendar in those days was the Jewish calendar where the number of months in each caledar year were arbitrarily chosen on the descretion of high preist. Some of their years were stretched over 20 months or so. In those days some of the months in the calendar were considered sacred when all wars were put to stop but when Jews used to see that they had a chance of winning they would drag the months longer so that they could bring the war to conclusion. Allah specifically forbade this practice through Qura'n (I don't remember the verse) but it provides evidence that it is not prudent to compare the length of years in that era with the years in the Gregorian or Lunar calendars of today.
#979 Posted by ajeya on April 29, 2008 11:26:26 am
#973 Salim_Chauhan
[I could also ask you whether you had stopped beating your wife.]
Why don't you ask me that, and see what I say in response?
[Your question is as stupid as that age-old trick. If you were seriously interested in the reasons and justifications for the various marriages of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his companions, I would gladly indulge your quest.]
Forget about my sinister motivations. Just take the question as an objective question.
See Salim, there IS a reason you guys cannot face this question (and many others). It is because ONCE you address this question, you have to start thinking about the POSSIBILITY that he was a pedophile, and therefore the POSSIBILITY that he was just another lowly con-man who is of a very bad character, and the POSSIBILITY that your loyal club membership is not going to produce the membership benefits that you have been hoping for all your life.
[The marriages included Mohammed's (PBUH) life-long partner, a widow who was 15 years older than he. Also, he married a black woman, an Egyption Copt, and a daughter of Hazrat Omar (RA). He gave the hands of two daughters to Hazrat Othman (RA) and one to Imam Ali (RA). In the tribal Arabia of those days, it was customary to marry to cement alliances.]
And he married his daughter-in-law Zainab who he happened to see naked, and his wives threatened to go public when they caught him spending too much time raping the newly acquired white Egyptian slave.
[Yes, he married Hazrat Ayesha (RA), the young daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). Thanks to the senility of certain sources, who wrote several generations after the events, there is considerable confusion about her age at the time of her marriage and consummation of that marriage. The most reliable version puts that age between 16 and 18.]
Heh heh. Okay. Now IF (for argument's sake) it so happened that he had lustful feelings for Ayesha when she was 6 (or younger - because he proposed marriage when she was 6 - he must have seen her before too) and he was a man of 55 with grey pubic hair, THEN what?
[If you are attempting to suggest that, Nauzbillah, our Holy Prophet (PBUH) was a pedophile, Toba Toba, then you must know that pedophilia is manifested as a recurring problem and never a single faux pas.]
Not necessarily. He must have had the urge all along, and only satisfied it when he was powerful enough to do it without people rebelling against him. End of the day, he had to maintain the loyalty of his subjects as well.
[Shame on you. Do you have the same inquisitive concern about all the other religious leaders in history? What have you researched about Jesus Christ? about Brigham Young? About the Medicis? ]
Jesus Christ was a non-violent and honorable man. But that is besides the point. Let's not lose focus here. :-)
[I could also ask you whether you had stopped beating your wife.]
Why don't you ask me that, and see what I say in response?
[Your question is as stupid as that age-old trick. If you were seriously interested in the reasons and justifications for the various marriages of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his companions, I would gladly indulge your quest.]
Forget about my sinister motivations. Just take the question as an objective question.
See Salim, there IS a reason you guys cannot face this question (and many others). It is because ONCE you address this question, you have to start thinking about the POSSIBILITY that he was a pedophile, and therefore the POSSIBILITY that he was just another lowly con-man who is of a very bad character, and the POSSIBILITY that your loyal club membership is not going to produce the membership benefits that you have been hoping for all your life.
[The marriages included Mohammed's (PBUH) life-long partner, a widow who was 15 years older than he. Also, he married a black woman, an Egyption Copt, and a daughter of Hazrat Omar (RA). He gave the hands of two daughters to Hazrat Othman (RA) and one to Imam Ali (RA). In the tribal Arabia of those days, it was customary to marry to cement alliances.]
And he married his daughter-in-law Zainab who he happened to see naked, and his wives threatened to go public when they caught him spending too much time raping the newly acquired white Egyptian slave.
[Yes, he married Hazrat Ayesha (RA), the young daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). Thanks to the senility of certain sources, who wrote several generations after the events, there is considerable confusion about her age at the time of her marriage and consummation of that marriage. The most reliable version puts that age between 16 and 18.]
Heh heh. Okay. Now IF (for argument's sake) it so happened that he had lustful feelings for Ayesha when she was 6 (or younger - because he proposed marriage when she was 6 - he must have seen her before too) and he was a man of 55 with grey pubic hair, THEN what?
[If you are attempting to suggest that, Nauzbillah, our Holy Prophet (PBUH) was a pedophile, Toba Toba, then you must know that pedophilia is manifested as a recurring problem and never a single faux pas.]
Not necessarily. He must have had the urge all along, and only satisfied it when he was powerful enough to do it without people rebelling against him. End of the day, he had to maintain the loyalty of his subjects as well.
[Shame on you. Do you have the same inquisitive concern about all the other religious leaders in history? What have you researched about Jesus Christ? about Brigham Young? About the Medicis? ]
Jesus Christ was a non-violent and honorable man. But that is besides the point. Let's not lose focus here. :-)
#978 Posted by sattar2 on April 29, 2008 10:02:31 am
Folks, some thoughts on age of Bibi Ayesha …
Sources that peg her age at 9 years are mostly traced back to one person, named Hisham or something alike, who apparently had moved to Iraq at a later point in his life. Note that it was a good century after the demise of the Prophet that the ahadith were compiled. The best Bukhari and company could do was to try to document ahadith to the best of their abilities.
There are other ways to estimate Ayesha’s (ra) age … by using the dates of certain events, time intervals that elapsed between events, and by adding and subtracting years. This way her age comes out to be closer to 16, 17-ish years …
Urstruly, you corner yourself by placing ahadith above Quran, and insisting that all ahadith were correctly recorded. Incidentally, this forms the basis of your Islam. Merely insisting that marriage to a 9-year old was divinely mandated does not cut it, I am afraid.
Salim, your main issue is with Urstruly; read his posts to understand why. What you are distancing yourself from, he is embracing whole heartedly … while essentially insisting on divine mandate.
And yes, you were not there when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married Ayesha (ra) … or when Gopi groped the gopis … but apparently you were there when Mirza Sahib died. I hope you see the absurdity and hypocrisy of your views. And problem of Islam is not Ahmadis, not Daruz, not the CIA … but violent tendencies and lack of intellectual capital amongst the ummah itself. Read the newspapers when you get a chance ... or talk to your local imam.
+++
Coming back to the article, its title, and the tone: I do think that the author unnecessarily took shots at Islam … which makes one wonder about her own motives and biases. She would have done better by trying to shed light at the crux of the issue … honor killings and plight of women in general … without denouncing her faith in Islam. Her lack of faith in Islam is a separate issue. If she sees a connection between Islam and honor killings … it seems she failed to properly establish it.
Some criticism of her writing is hence justified, but not at the cost of the larger point regarding plight of women. When this larger point is compromised by defenders of Islam, greater injustice is done to the cause … all in the name of Islam … which in turn gives credence to the author slamming Islam in the first place. This cycle needs to be broken … if not by the author, then by the ummah itself. Both failed!
Plight of women remains an issue … amongst many cultures. Each culture justifies it in its own way ... by wrapping it up in cultural practices, religious edicts, political necessities, etc. Arguably, application of religion may very well play a role … and hence should be carefully reviewed; hopefully without reviling the author.
Sources that peg her age at 9 years are mostly traced back to one person, named Hisham or something alike, who apparently had moved to Iraq at a later point in his life. Note that it was a good century after the demise of the Prophet that the ahadith were compiled. The best Bukhari and company could do was to try to document ahadith to the best of their abilities.
There are other ways to estimate Ayesha’s (ra) age … by using the dates of certain events, time intervals that elapsed between events, and by adding and subtracting years. This way her age comes out to be closer to 16, 17-ish years …
Urstruly, you corner yourself by placing ahadith above Quran, and insisting that all ahadith were correctly recorded. Incidentally, this forms the basis of your Islam. Merely insisting that marriage to a 9-year old was divinely mandated does not cut it, I am afraid.
Salim, your main issue is with Urstruly; read his posts to understand why. What you are distancing yourself from, he is embracing whole heartedly … while essentially insisting on divine mandate.
And yes, you were not there when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married Ayesha (ra) … or when Gopi groped the gopis … but apparently you were there when Mirza Sahib died. I hope you see the absurdity and hypocrisy of your views. And problem of Islam is not Ahmadis, not Daruz, not the CIA … but violent tendencies and lack of intellectual capital amongst the ummah itself. Read the newspapers when you get a chance ... or talk to your local imam.
+++
Coming back to the article, its title, and the tone: I do think that the author unnecessarily took shots at Islam … which makes one wonder about her own motives and biases. She would have done better by trying to shed light at the crux of the issue … honor killings and plight of women in general … without denouncing her faith in Islam. Her lack of faith in Islam is a separate issue. If she sees a connection between Islam and honor killings … it seems she failed to properly establish it.
Some criticism of her writing is hence justified, but not at the cost of the larger point regarding plight of women. When this larger point is compromised by defenders of Islam, greater injustice is done to the cause … all in the name of Islam … which in turn gives credence to the author slamming Islam in the first place. This cycle needs to be broken … if not by the author, then by the ummah itself. Both failed!
Plight of women remains an issue … amongst many cultures. Each culture justifies it in its own way ... by wrapping it up in cultural practices, religious edicts, political necessities, etc. Arguably, application of religion may very well play a role … and hence should be carefully reviewed; hopefully without reviling the author.
#977 Posted by peonoftheeast on April 29, 2008 4:47:25 am
I asked eklavy saab that zeemax munafiq saab says he has had sex recently with women in muscat. I say that is wrong but eklavy saab say it is ok as the girls had good time too.
i ask as Islam stops us from comitting "zina" why it is ok for zeemax to have sex and not others saab?
this is what zeemax saab says
{"Yaar forget it. I just fucked half a dozen hindoo wenches in three holes each last week in Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat. This idiot just wants one Muslim right? So all I'm saying is go ahead and do it."}
this is the conversation with eklavy saab that i had and then he did not reply to,
eklavy saab,
the question was not about what individuals got out saab
question is about moral value saab
for example, is it ok saab if i have sex with zeemax's sister saab without marrying her saab?
as long as she has good time saab and i guarantee that saab
is zeemax saab happy about that saab? you should check with him saab
what is good for him saab is goo for me saab
then he should not bring Quran e Majid into this saab as Quran e Majid clearly talks of this as a moral issue saab and not just individual matter of having good time saab
maybe zeemax saab can reply as i want to make sex with his sister and if i can go ahead or not saab
all i want to know saab if it is ok for zeemax to drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage then why cannot the ordinary man and woman in my country.
there seem to be double standards, no??
i ask as Islam stops us from comitting "zina" why it is ok for zeemax to have sex and not others saab?
this is what zeemax saab says
{"Yaar forget it. I just fucked half a dozen hindoo wenches in three holes each last week in Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat. This idiot just wants one Muslim right? So all I'm saying is go ahead and do it."}
this is the conversation with eklavy saab that i had and then he did not reply to,
eklavy saab,
the question was not about what individuals got out saab
question is about moral value saab
for example, is it ok saab if i have sex with zeemax's sister saab without marrying her saab?
as long as she has good time saab and i guarantee that saab
is zeemax saab happy about that saab? you should check with him saab
what is good for him saab is goo for me saab
then he should not bring Quran e Majid into this saab as Quran e Majid clearly talks of this as a moral issue saab and not just individual matter of having good time saab
maybe zeemax saab can reply as i want to make sex with his sister and if i can go ahead or not saab
all i want to know saab if it is ok for zeemax to drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage then why cannot the ordinary man and woman in my country.
there seem to be double standards, no??
#976 Posted by nkg on April 29, 2008 12:22:20 am
Re: # 952
Salim Ch...
Did you know that Jawaharlal Nehru had an illicit relationship with Sardar Vallabhai Patel?
....
Ha ha ha....this is real joke...Whenever you bring Ayesha,Zainab,Maria these people behave like 100% lunatic...
Salim Ch..., there is no point being personal. If Mo was paedophile, what is your problem?
Salim Ch...
Did you know that Jawaharlal Nehru had an illicit relationship with Sardar Vallabhai Patel?
....
Ha ha ha....this is real joke...Whenever you bring Ayesha,Zainab,Maria these people behave like 100% lunatic...
Salim Ch..., there is no point being personal. If Mo was paedophile, what is your problem?
#975 Posted by nkg on April 28, 2008 11:50:10 pm
Re: # 948
Salim Ch..
Ans: What is the history lesson I have to learn?
The areas of MP and UP (Malwa and Bundelkhand) are very close to Delhi. Rise of Sivaji was much earler than Nadir Shah invastion. It is see stupidity to bring Nadir Shah and Navy matter for the defeat of Mughals at the hands of Marathas...
Salim Ch..
Ans: What is the history lesson I have to learn?
The areas of MP and UP (Malwa and Bundelkhand) are very close to Delhi. Rise of Sivaji was much earler than Nadir Shah invastion. It is see stupidity to bring Nadir Shah and Navy matter for the defeat of Mughals at the hands of Marathas...