In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful

Re: # 25
"the ritualistic animal sacrifices held yearly in our Islamic world to commemorate a senile lunatic's alleged 'act of upholding the covenant' to please his divine master and (?)friend (well, he IS called 'Khaleel-ul-llah' for nothing!)."

Live and be damned repeatedly for abusing the Prophets. You will never find your way you lost soul.

On your deathbed, think of the sense I repeatedly tried knocking into your impenetrable skull.

#95 by tahir

Wonderful memory cells...

And a wonderful attempt at being wishy-washy Tahir mian, but it doesn't wash.

Re: # 96
Dear Miss Najma-in-Toronto,

Whatever rights God bestowed upon women through the Qur'an the West is still catching up with. Anything else is delusion. For the meaning of the word DELUSION, may I suggest who to see in Toronto?

That we push things under the carpet is OUR fault, not God's.

What have you really against men, Pakistan, and Islam I'd like to know?

That someone abused you is regrettable. THAT is the way of the heathens.

Rejoice in your new-found relgion, tongue and ex-pat ignorance.

To drag God's name into the title of your piece and have the usual vultures defencively orbit you is even more deplorable.

Ta-ta.

Re: # 98
Again, where did those assassins come from? Which area Mr. Harish?

Re: # 41
This tirade is regrettable.

While those who openly abuse others is bad manners, to earn from a psychotic ex-pat Pakistani is even worse. Who did you mention by name? Sorry I cannot pronounce that bad name.

Regards.

#100 by tahir

Tahir mian, nice try again but it ain't working. Acceptance is the first step towards repair. So when there is a problem, closing your eyes to it or plain obfuscation is not going to make it go away. Islam or any other religion will be judged by the conduct of its adherents.

Now I know you'll jump on to our problems. Sure, Hinduism has it share of problems, but no one is denying it or trying to trivialize it like you're trying to do here. The author is a Paki and she has written about problems in Pakistan. And the first thing you do is say that this happens only in FATA and Wana. Is this all you're capable of?

The foundations of honour killings

In the paki society there is a systematic de-sensitisation of life. It starts early in the childhood. For teh eid, it is the father who brings home the goat, cow or you name it to the home and kills it in front of the children, to infuse in them that killing is a religious function. Then the offals are thrown out to display to the others the man of the house is a killer.

It is widespread in pakistan that stages are erected in public squares where camels are killed and many come aroud to watch the gory death.

It is unfathomable that millions of animals should be killed on a single day in the homes. no definitely the purpose is not eating the meat, it is to graduate the children to major killings.

forthcoming...making of a jihadi...

Re: # 101 and various other ramblings:

aha...looks like the village idiot has been around! damn!! I'd have loved to have been here.....

Azra Rashid...

We have seen in Pakistan that laws are not easy to change, especially when they are enacted by the US-supported dictators who imported Islam to Pakistan and prescribed the "chaadar aur chaar-divari" pill for women.

Ans: Why to bring USA for all the evils?
This mediaval phenomenon (woman as sex object and need to be controlled like any other property) is definitely partially promoted by women itself. Does womenfolk in Pakistan talks against honor killing? This is more of social issue, rather than law and order problem...

Re: # 61
Azra...
Be it bride burning or honor killing, there is nothing honorable about it and it happens in our part of the world with impunity. I don't know the laws against these crimes in India but I know that the situation in Pakistan is not promising at all.

Ans: Indian law is quite good. Only the application and timely delivery depends upon state, monetary condition etc... Police can refuge FIR for large amount of money. Indians cremate body. So, once that is completed, no way you can prove that, whether it was murder or suicide...
Regarding honor killing, it may be limited in couple of states (UP,Bihar, MP). I am not aware of such problem in eastern states and southern states. As per my perception cow belt ( UP and Bihar) is kind of replica of Pakistan. We had a joke, if we are forced to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan, we need to gift them Bihar and UP also...

Re: # 103

continuing on from 103 is what the author has described and I quote. Most of the pakistani families would have heard of some of their relatives, neighbours killing another and getting away with it.
..............

"To deter the girl from this childish notion of love, her family killed the boy and chopped his body into several pieces and promised her the same destiny. And they were successful! As a result, the girl is now afraid for her life and running away from her family. The nameless heroine of this not-so-bollywood story knows that these are not empty threats, not only because the family has shown her what they are capable of doing by killing her lover but also because she sees murders being committed to safeguard a family's honor with total impunity in Pakistan."

Then is also the greatness ascribed to the gaznavis and the ghouris, taught in the schools with all the gory details.

Thus by the age of 18 an average pakistani is completely de-sensitised, is only a fuse away from a suicide belt.

Re: # 103
Jayp...
Ans: You are correct. Violence is indoctrined in early childhood. But that should not make a child subjugative on women-folks. Indian's also perform "bali" during some pujas. But couple of people participate in this kind of activity. Eastern region ( Assam, West Bengal, Tripura, Manipur etc...) is popular for religious sacrifice. These areas have better track record on women empowerment and liberty.

Re: # 106
nkg

In kerala the law is simple, if a woman dies due to un-natural causes within 7 years of marriage, it is mandatory that it be treated as wife torture, husbands family charged, and investigated. Suicide typically results in conviction for the husbands family.

In kerala, the tables have turned, wifes threaten with suicide and blackmail the husbands.

Re: # 108
nkg,

As far as I know, the animal sacrifices are carried out by the priest, not by the head of the house in the backyard with the children as witness.

Erecting galleries for people to see the killing of camels in pakistan is simply barbaric.

Honor functions as an opiate in backward societies like that of Pakistan. But before we go any further, we must clarify what is honor because it remains a widely misunderstood concept. Some believe honor to be self-respect originating from years of discipline, value and status. So automatically people with no status are freed from the shackles of honor - finally some relief for the poor! The dictionary definition of honor is a concept of direct relation between one's virtues and their status within society. In many societies honor by and large remains an external concept of the worth and stature assigned to an individual by the society. So in a way it is evaluation by the society of a person's "character" and actions. Just as character, a woman's honor is also tied closely to her sexuality. Combined with religion and tribalism, honor seeks to subjugate women, and a woman is killed justifiably in the name of honor by her own family for having defiled the family's honor.

A timely article. Timely in the sense that you are trying to bring in a sense of proportion to the debate – but it is an old subject and as you can see hacked about a lot, and every person has an opinion on it. Some them are pretty forthright in throwing it about.
My grouse is this:
(a) Honor functions as an opiate in backward societies like that of Pakistan : I thought religion was the opiate? Or has it changed? By tagging the phrase “backward societies” you have caused great umbrage. Tell, isnt honor also a corner stone of “advanced societies like Canada, US etc. The phrase “my word is my honor” comes to mind. I am unable to fathom this fashion for self-flagellation. This form of self-flagellation is often misconstrued to be a step first in recognizing an evil. Identify it as a bad thing, but do not associate it with a perceived sense of backwardness.
(b) The notion of honor – when you say Some believe honor to be self-respect originating from years of discipline, value and status it misleads readers into thinking an old grandmother is telling us all another tale. Honor killing is an extremely serious issue. But lack of rigor shown here shows your disrespect to the people dying as a result of this, and also to the emotional status of all concerned. You are demeaning everything here. Make no mistake Honor Killing as we know it and read about in the press is one of the most dastardly things which could be every carried out by man on another human being.
(c) people with no status are freed from the shackles of honor - finally some relief for the poor! another statement which made me cringe. You seem to indicate that there is a direct relationship between honor and material wealth. Perhaps its an indication of the callow rich’s shallow mind – one which wants to wear “liberal cloths” while at heart being an elitist prat.
(d) Next you provide a dictionary meaning of “honor” This couple with t above make a compelte mockery of your article and makes one wonder whether your heart is really in it or you are just jumping onto a feel-good band-wagon!
(e) You conclusion based on the above In many societies honor by and large remains an external concept of the worth and stature assigned to an individual by the society is eniterely misleading. In many societies a man’s word is his honor. The very rich can be the most dishonorable as well – they could have the “shaan” and “shaukat” but are the most disreputable and dishonorable people. There is a huge, and yawning gap here.
(f) Then from this material definitions you jump tp this Just as character, a woman's honor is also tied closely to her sexuality I mean for cry out loud – where the eff is the connection. For such a serious subject you seem to be all over the place. The dots are missing even for the reasonably dumb (like me) to join and figure things out.
(g) And then the piece de resistance Combined with religion and tribalism, honor seeks to subjugate women, and a woman is killed justifiably in the name of honor by her own family for having defiled the family's honor You have not set it up properly to be able to reach this point.
Issues like integrity, respect, honesty, fairness, come into play which you have conveniently ignored. Honor is essentially a concept which is both “relativistic” as well an innate, native, one. It is when when two cometogetehr you end up with the killings.
All in all a very severe let down. This whole article.. You could have done tremendous justice to this topic, but you have failed admirably and miserably.
Sad, really sad that a woman cannot articulate herself better.

At the age of twenty this nameless girl fell in love with a boy, Bollywood style

Love and falling in love - is universal - there is nothing hollywood or bollywood about it. That you want to categorise it as such, shews your hand Azra - that you are a wolf in a sheeps cloth!!!!!! 8)

Come on, once more iwill say it - you have taken a serious subject and made it awful to read - turgid, crap, banal, and worse than offal!