In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful

Ms. Rashid,

I found the following passage really interesting:

"I question the role and necessity of love, after all we do get just one life to live and if we are dead, that is the end of our story. I don't believe in fate, I don't believe in lies and I don't believe in Allah, but I question if a life of lie and deceit, beginning with the name of Allah and narrowing down and eventually ending in an artificially created and suffocating grave is the fate for the women of Pakistan."

Do we as women in essence live in a world where love does not necessarily function/exist for us when it conflicts with familial/societal desires/needs and structures?


I'm not referring to the spaces we make in our labor, relationships with fam, friends, art, education, etc. (which I argue are individual constructions of self and outward love) that are not a threat to the fam/soc structure.

I mean in the way you have outlined love and it's lack for Pakistani women in the contexts described.

Very well written Azra. It is an on going story that almost never gets talked about because of our "face-saving" cultural background.

We would spend hours discussing "the wrongs" done by "the west" in far flung places, but never face the issues staring us straight in the eye, from within our midst.

I am sure "the pure" inhabitants of the "land of the pure" (especially the male ones, I might add) would be along shortly to offer "perfectly legitimate" excuses for the practices mentioned. It is a pity that they are never on the receiving end of these "honourable" practices in their daily lives themselves!

I personally hold strongly that the character described by the fifth word in the title has as much to do with it as anyone/thing else! After spending sometime on this site, this 'belief' gets stronger by the minute.

Cheers

dear azra...it is high time we focused on the plight of women who are suffering in the name of religion or tradition all over the world. these attitudes have developed over the centuries. we pay lip service to the sacredness of motherhood but do not think twice before insulting or abusing them. i believe women's liberation is an important aspect of human liberation and women like you will play a significant role in educating the masses through the media.
it is not just women's problem it is also men's peoblem as the future of humanity will depend how men and women treat each other. keep on writing and producing documentaries and educating the public. i am so proud of you...all the best...sohail

Hmmm ... I see the murtid has found a GF, the lesbian has found a lover, and the mad psychic has found a patient! Good progress in just one day while I was in a plane.

Azra:

1. Are more women being killed every year or is it the case that more people are now reporting/registering such incidents? Your initial statistics tell us that the latter is definitely true while the former may or may not be true. If you are telling us here that we should be alarmed about honor killings BECAUSE it is on the increase then a little bit of more research on numbers would have been appreciated.

2. If it is not growing numbers, then are you saying that we should be concerned simply because it is barbaric? This is a no brainer, all of us are horrified and know about these incidents. Your article neither adds nor substracts from our horror. However, there are quite a few here (like myself) who are not clear as to why such a barborous act takes place. For example, we know why Bush, Bib Laden or Mehsud act like barbarians. But it would have been nice if you could have shed more light on what makes a father kill his child. You do provide some definitions from some dictionaries. You also claim that you do not believe in God. Laws being ineffective and plainly stupid is another assertion. But none of them provide sufficient reason for a father to kill her child. Yes, you do imply that 2% of the population can be viewed as an uncivilized fringe of a somewhat civilized society. But then we already know that, don't we?

So unless you interact and tell us more, readers like me will keep on wondering as to what was the point of this article? And sadly, you will be elevated to the grand status of chowk glitterati like Hoodbhoy, Beena, Beg and others who put forth c@#p on FP for lesser beings like us to discuss.

#5 Posted by GT,

Do you really expect answers for your intellectually honest questions from a puta? A simple answer would be pre-menstrual syndrome which prompts some she-canines to act up from time to time.

Re: # 6

zeemax,

.... do you always talk about women like this ? ....... why are muslim men misogynists - does it have something to do feelings of sexual inadequacy? ....... get over it! .... women are people too regardless of what it says in the koran and other unholy texts

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BTW I'm an equal opportunity murtid-hater. It can be a woman or a man. Same same ...

Nice article. But I think this is a very minor issue. 1250 is quite an okii number...

Re: # 5

There is actually a very interesting subtextual thesis here-one that enrages interactors like tampax.

In my reading, the writer asks us the following question: if one of the meanings of God/Allah/the Creator is interpreted as "love", let's say in the performance of the 11 meanings of jihad or internal soul searching, self respect and respect for others, agency and fully actualized personhood, where is the proof of this "love" for women? Where is the proof of this "love" in the lives of women? In essence, we are dealing with at least two Islams-one for men in which these transcendent meanings exist and the other for women in which these meanings do not exist.

Before this becomes about anyone else, or any other group, deal with the subject at hand.

#11 Posted by neembu:

In six lines you have framed a good question. The question also is very clear. Now why do we need a whole FP article, where we even have to guess what is written? Thank you, I deal with this a lot when my daughter forces me to go over her home-work every evening. Moreover, does a question an FP article make? Don't we have UP?

Now, I do not like zeemax's interacts below and I believe that Arza should interact here. Tell us more. Though I am basically dumb, at least I am willing to listen.

Re: # 12

I think at these questions have a 25 volume of the Hadith made. A Muslim scholar has recently published an extremely interesting, exhaustive exploration of the Hadith.

peeweemax, the jihadi rodent, is getting his islamist undies in a knot....

wow..that's new...

#5 GT
to some extent the distinction u make is artificial
whether theres an actual increase in numbers or whether its the result of better reporting ppl's conscience is shaken more when (they learn that) the deaths number in the 1000s rather than in the 100s

Azra:

How can ever be an “honor” in killing or bride burning?

It is not going to change people like Zeemax sahibs until Azaras of the world stop qualifying such brutal acts with adjectives like ‘honor’.

This adjective gives an escape to Zemaax sahibs to open wrong pages of a sacred book. Nothing that Azras to Hamidms can do to stop Zemaax sahibs to open the different page and start their defense. All live in this freer world, no matter what grudge Massaddi Mians have for the elites.

Your wrote, “I don't believe in fate, I don't believe in lies and I don't believe in Allah,…” These are very strong “don’t beliefs”.

Do you have even stronger “beliefs”?

What are they? Set of stronger beliefs are needed to counter the regressive forces of beliefs – that is what all religions are.

I am afraid; Azra “don’t believes” won’t do anything.

Also, if you are going to bring change in Pakistani society, you cannot “don’t believe” in Allah. You suddenly become a single non-entity. Pakistan is far too religios and far more to the right of center. To bring evolutionary and permanent changes, you may need to talk to people who may be too much to the religious right for your comfort.

I respect that you wrote here and expressed your “don’t believes” so clearly. It take courage to do so. Till this courage turns into Tsunami from within, the believers in Allah, nothing can happen. Hamidm sahib can cry himself hoarse – nakkar khane mein tuti ki awaj se ziayad nahin hai.

Re: # 8

zeemax,

.... i am speechless ! ..... your language puts a pimp for a twenty rupee whore to shame !

...... i am really surprised by how abusive you people are towards women - it is not nice .... shame on you !

Zemaax sahibs to open wrong pages of a sacred book.



the jihadi rodent already doesn't open the pages of the koran where pbuh-dude tells the faithful not to drink alcohol...

peeweemax has an alternate koran..one where drinking and homogiri are halal

shouldnt the father of the runaway girl be killing himself (like hara-kiri with japanese) rather than the girl? and how about the father of the runaway boy be joining him in this?

i think somoone needs to clarify the concept of "honor" to these fools.

neembu: you find 25 volumes of hadith to be interesting? what other interests do you have?

Zeemax sahib:

Your #8 is a disgrace. I am shocked.

Re: # 19

Tahmed sahib:

"...needs to clarify the concept of "honor" to these fools..."

Calrifying to fools, quite an oxymoronic proposition, Tahmed sahib.

Honor is not something explained, or bestowed. In civilized socities it is a privilege that is earned over a very long period of time.

To be honest, I don't think I could sit and read the sort of stuff Zeemax wrote.

I thought better of you somehow Zee, I don't know why.

btw; these 'murtids' seem to be popping all over the place, and if anything, more amongst the highly educated; what does that say to you about your 'deen-e-fitrat'?

Khuda Hafiz; I don't think I'd bother with you anymore. You are not worth it (same goes for all the dogs hanging around you wagging their tails, i.e., Tahir, HP and the lot!).

Re: # 17; hamidm Sahib

[zeemax,.... i am speechless ! ..... your language puts a pimp for a twenty rupee whore to shame !]

I am surprised you thought there WAS a difference.

I am certainly shocked on my part for thinking there was one; we live and learn, I suppose.

Re: # 5; GT sahib; Re:But it would have been nice if you could have shed more light on what makes a father kill his child.]


May I remind you of the ritualistic animal sacrifices held yearly in our Islamic world to commemorate a senile lunatic's alleged 'act of upholding the covenant' to please his divine master and (?)friend (well, he IS called 'Khaleel-ul-llah' for nothing!).

There is no greater love than 'ishq-e-haqeeqi' in our mythology sir; it takes precedence over all else, including one's own flesh and blood! Same applies to our allegiance to our holy prophet(pbuh) and his camel

pakis i know you want always equate honor killings with bride burnings. It is the only way pakis know how to compare with India. you have bad things going on (eg gujarat riots), we have the same shit (bangladesh killings) we are all same. But there is no similarity between honor killings and bride burnings before you take that crutch. Bride burnings are legally worse crime in Indian than murders. For murders you have to prove motive. But for bride burnings motive is automatically assigned and life in prison is gauranteed. If someone wants to murder knowing the penalty I would say full power to him. In a society the freedom to commit crime is important too. Otherwise it would be a police state. In the case of honor killings which by definition is done by family, family automatically pardons as they dont want to lose another member or they are all in it together. So it is legally sanctioned murder. Palkistan is the only country in the world which has legally sanctioned murder by this definition. It is also the only country which has legally sanctioned rape as it is a not rape if it is done in private/semi private conditions, which they are usally done anyway. If i were a paki, i would be ashamed to tell anyone that I am a paki and would give up citizenship in a heartbeat. what a loser country where murder and rape are legal and fools like neembu want more to be done to them!

anil sahib: amen to that.

the only pakis that are really happy to be paki citizens are murderers, rapists and other cowards like mullah32 who wont murder and rape, but take the support of those who do, to instill the fear and keep the islamic society going on. It is a simple rule. If a woman is family you can legally rape and murder her. If she is not, you can just rape her. Easy to remember even for the inbred retards.

Now the feminists want 'Human Rights' - as Feminists!

What crap!

dharma: are you trying to get attention, monkey-man?

#29 your post makes no sense.

tahmed, if you have brain argue logically. Please dont call names in the name of argument. Without talking about monkeymen can you honestly answer the follwoing questions:
1) If I am paki citizen can I legally murder my sister as long as my dad is ok with it?
2) Can I legally rape anyone in a womens hostel where there is no man present?
People have little respect for you because you start name calling when you dont have a argument. It is ok not to know and be wrong as long as you can learn. But you cant learn - that is your problem

#32 why would i want to argue logically with a monkey man?

Re: # 33
there you go - you prove my point. Dont get upset when people dont respect you as you dont deserve any.

#34 why do you think i care for respect from a monkeyman?

#34 why do you think i care for respect from a monkeyman?

#34 why do you think i care for respect from a monkeyman?

Re: # 37
You know the answers to both questions are yes. But you resort to name calling instead of being honest. You are zeemax's sidekick. How low can you go? That is what moderate muslim is. Sidekicks to Islamists. That is the reason you are despised more than zeemaxes. Atleast zeemaxes are honest.

#38 what makes you think i pay any attention to what you write, you piece of filth from india? dont try to improve your status by coming to a pakistani board.

nice chatting with you, monkey-man. unfortunately you are too slow and too stupid to have fun with.

learn from monkey-man arjun. he could show you how to do backflips.

Re: # 39
so i am filth because i am from india and it does not matter what I think, what ideas i have - you can not learn from them. See who is the monkey here? I can learn from pakis like akcheema, i am not ashamed to learm like you are. What an old fool! no wonder you are the chowk idiot.

#41 you are filth FROM india. not because.

is that too difficult for your monkey-man brain to understand?

Re: # 41

dharma mian,

..... the only way we pakis can feel good about ourselves is by comparing ourselves to the horrible hindoos ....... we are better because we shoot, stone or behead our women instead of burning them like kafirs ...... didn't you know that burning is haram ?....... heck, we won't even burn our useless dead people !

hamidm: actually i dont think pakistanis think much about india until a monkey-man from india pops up howling "pakis this..." and "pakis that.." look at this board, e.g.

hamidm: but enough about monkey-man. how is the lota business doing?

Re: # 43; hamidm sahib;[the only way we pakis can feel good about ourselves is by comparing ourselves to the horrible hindoos ....... we are better because we shoot, stone or behead our women instead of burning them like kafirs ...... didn't you know that burning is haram ?....... heck, we won't even burn our useless dead people !]

Having completed my house jobs in Mayo Hospital, Lahore, I have seen my fair share of female (almost invariably) victims of domestic burns under more than suspiscious circumstances. Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here!

As for this monkeyman business, tahmed I am a bit disappointed; regardless of previous history, you were asked perfectly genuine questions that you failed to address.

As I have said many times before, I'd rather deal with a 'jihadi' like Zeemax than the 'namby-pamby' apologists for their inhuman and barbaric faith; at least with 'jihadis', one knows where one stands!

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cheema: you are new to chowk, and therefore not blessed with a better understanding of the hindu extremists who infest this board. you think this "dharma" really cares about the poor women in pakistan? he is here to score points.

ask these hindu extremists their views about the gujrat killings - there standard response is not regret, rather claims that this was "retribution".

in order to be taken seriously, an individual has to demonstrate some level of sincerity - not the crocodile tears these hindu extremists shed about problems in pakistan.

hope this clarifies where i am coming from on this.

zeemax: when writing garbage about hamidm's family members, you say nothing about them and plenty about your own family background.

Re: # 45

tahmed,

.... since you bring it up - have you seen what zardari is trying to do to the droopy eyed cj ..... do you ever wonder why mushy is still in the army house, why he still seems to be calling the shots and why that idiot qayoom is still the attorney general ? ........ sheikh rashid was on tv the other day and he feels that the people of pindi will soon get tired of hearing excuses from the new set of clowns and elect him again in less than a year ! ....... i wouldn't be surprised or displeased ...... at least he is entertaining

.......... but enough of that ... back to the horror of honor killing - you should stop siding with zeemax in defending the barbaric practices of a bedouin prophet (pbuh and his camel) .... i think the sooner we muslims admit our faults, the sooner we can begin on working on a cure ..... it will take a couple of generations to become somewhat civlized but we have to start now .........

Re: # 47[I used the language because it is the appropriate one for these people who have little or no knowledge into this particular matter or other similar ones, but think they can conveniently use it to knock Islam over the head with these, and they do!]

Speaking for myself, when did I use 'bad language' about your family or even yourself? Problem is you want 'the ghalba' position so the only person with the right to verbally abuse others is none other that you and your cronies. I have tolerated that so far but be prepared to receive as much as you dish out from now on. Same goes for your dogs HP and Tahir.

Re: # 49

tahmed,

thanks for defending my family honor ! ..... i would really appreciate it if you behead zeemax or at least give him fifty lashes - i demand justice!

hamidm #50 i think zardari doesnt understand the mood in Pakistan - if the judges are restored, that will be no thanks to him and his open insults to the same judges without whose courage and principled stand he and bb would still be in exile.

Re: # 51

cheema sahib,

.... what did hp do to deserve your wrath ? ......... he is one of the good guys ..... are you sure you are not confusing him with gt ?

#52 hamidm: your family's honor does not need any defense. i was merely pointing out the obvious to zeemax.

Re: # 54; hamidm sahib

I know who I am talking about but thaks for asking.

Cheers...work to do

Re: # 55

tahmed mian,

..... you and i can kid about this stuff but these guys take this shit seriously ...... zeemax is all pissed off because ms azra called abraham a schizophrenic idiot and accused mary of sleeping around (which seems to a plausible theory) ...... i bet you, he is ready to kill someone right now and is probably beating the women in his family out of sheer frustration ....... i just can't understand anyone getting upset about silly things like this ....oh well ..

#47 Posted by zeemax on April 21, 2008 5:38:44 pm


Islam sanctions capital punishments for murtids and blasphemers


Mohammad was a child rapist and allah was a goat..

there jihadi rodent..I've blasphemed...now what're you going to do about it? huff and puff and hit the bottle? or take a crack at me with your "austrian glock rifle with laser locking scope"(cough cough)...

#32 Posted by dharma on April 21, 2008 4:33:34 pm

now all you have to do is mention the killings in bangladesh and you'll be 3 out of 3...and prophet tahmed's head with explode with a bout of self-righteousness..

Zee sahib,

(what does religion have to do with some guy killing his sister for illicit relationship with the neighbor's boy or something? That's cultural and tribal and has something to do with family honour in varying degrees in many rural societies, and NOT religion's honour. )

Quite correct. And incidentally it happens in India too especially Northern India, mainly in case of inter-caste marriages in rural areas. It is tribal and cultural, although it is given religious sanction to dignify it.

Regards

I find it quite interesting how Hindus and Muslims on this board are fighting over India and Pakistan. My grandparents are from India, parents born in Bangladesh, I was born in Pakistan and my kids will probably be born in Canada. There are more similarities than differences if one is interested in finding some common grounds. Unfortunately, the Brits did us much harm by their divide and rule policy but one hopes that we will not carry those policies forward in the 21st century and we will try to see the global nature of the world today. The fact is that we are all human beings, we share the same values, concerns and the desire for a life of dignity.

Be it bride burning or honor killing, there is nothing honorable about it and it happens in our part of the world with impunity. I don't know the laws against these crimes in India but I know that the situation in Pakistan is not promising at all. I don't see why talking about it has to result in name calling and fighting among the Indians and Pakistanis here.

Re: # 60; majumdar sahib

I don't know about India but can you explain the prevelance of these practices in other (non-Indic) Islamic countries. This includes many in the middle-east, including Iraq and Syria. I am sure someone is going to jump in and 'refute' this very shortly!

Problem is that this practice has had the 'safeguard' in religious terms within Pakistani law. It is the same 'crime of passion' theory that originally existed during the times of the Raj.

btw; if a woman is raped, where the hell is she supposed to find four witnesses to prove/disprove her case? especially in a deeply patriarchial society such as Pakistan.

Looks like the 'magic' has blinded you into thinking like a true 'momin' as well! There goes another Eklavya!

Re: # 61; Azra

I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you. I used to take it seriously before but now it is just entertainment!


Cheers

Cheema sahib,

(but can you explain the prevelance of these practices in other (non-Indic) Islamic countries. This includes many in the middle-east, including Iraq and Syria.)

Simple. Most of Middle East too consist of tribal/semi-tribal societies.

(Looks like the 'magic' has blinded you into thinking like a true 'momin' as well!)

Till I last checked I was very much a kaffir. I am not trying to think like a momin, just trying to think like a rational person.

(There goes another Eklavya!)

Surely it is a great compliment to be compared to someone like Kaal bhai. Dunno whether I deserve it.

Regards

#61 see my post #48 below which I think applies to you as well since you are obviously new to chowk as well.

Re: # 64; majumdar bhai
[Till I last checked I was very much a kaffir. I am not trying to think like a momin, just trying to think like a rational person.]

you know I was being cheeky! I respect both you and Kaal; I only hope he can learn some simple ways to communicate with the mortals!

I am glad to be reassured (above) nevertheless; praise be to the 'moon-god', the holy prophet (pbuh) and his camel for that!

May be I could throw in MAJ(pbuh) as well?!

Cheers

Azra ji,

There is no specific law against honour killings. But an honour killing would be treated as a normal murder and the accused dealt with accordingly. In practise of course, if the perpetrator is a wealthy and influential person he can get away with it (as with other kinds of murders). Only thing that be can be said in defence of the state is that it certainly does not condone honour killings on the grounds of "honour".

Regards

#63 it is not merely entertainment, it is educational entertainment. chowk is a useful reminder that Jinnah did not feel the need to create Pakistan for nothing - there is such a thing as hindu rage against 1000 years of slavery. there is such a thing as communalism. and it is more widespread in india among hindus than islamic terrorists in pakistan.

pakistanis are fortunate in having been insulted from this over the past 60 years, and it is only now through the internet that this becomes clear.

so, by all means reach out to indians who dont suffer from this disease. but it does exist, as is clear on the internet.

Re: # 65; tahmed sahib

can you cut this "navaan ayeaan ai soniaan" business please!

Cheers

#69 isnt it true?

Re: # 68; tahmed sahib
[pakistanis are fortunate in having been insulted from this over the past 60 years, and it is only now through the internet that this becomes clear.]

another request; can you also cut back on the self-riteousness as well please!

the guilt does not exclusively lie on one side here; let's not talk like idiots but realists. In general terms, be it here on the world at large, Pakis can (and do) give as much as take.

Cheers

Re: # 71

correction:
be it here on the world at large

should be ....here OR the world...

Cheema sahib,

(I only hope he can learn some simple ways to communicate with the mortals!)

Or maybe we could upgrade ourselves so that we can communicate with him.

(praise be to the 'moon-god', the holy prophet (pbuh) and his camel for that!)

I don't worship either of the three but I respect your right to do so!

(May be I could throw in MAJ(pbuh) as well?!)

That will be most gratifying to me.

Regards

#71 cheema sahib: the fact that i have a different view than you does not automatically mean i am an idiot.

the fact that i have spent 10 years on chowk may mean i am an idiot, of course. but i have learnt a few things along the way.

Re: # 74; tahmed sahib

yet another request; avoid 'self-pity' please as it doesn't become you; can also be counter-productive

of course you are not an idiot...there..there....now stop sulking

Re: # 73; majumdar bhai
"Or maybe we could upgrade ourselves so that we can communicate with him."

are you saying I need to invest in a pair of stiltz?

"that would be most gratifying.."

we aim to please bhai sahib, although the level of individual 'gratification' may vary from person to person

Cheers

#75 cheema sahib: where exactly do you detect the self-pity? you called me an idiot because you disagreed, and i pointed out your presumption in saying that.

Azra, glad to see another thought-provoking piece from you – written (as usual) with a good deal of passion! Keep up the good work and do not lose hope in the women of Pakistan.

The world at large sees the chaadar for what it is – a modern-day symbol of woman’s subservience and servitude to man. I have no doubt that heavily as it hangs, it will soon come off – like the chaadar of communism lifted virtually overnight – this yoke of slavery will go, too!

There is no honor in slavery! Those who look away from that simple fact are part of the problem.

Re: # 77; tahmed;

oye buzurgo! would it help if I apologise profusely for something I said inadvertantly?

cheema: anyway, it is late here and i need to finish something and go to bed. you are welcome to your views - just dont think that anyone who disagrees with them is a fool.

cheema; i dont need sarcastic "apologies". i have been called worse names than a fool on chowk (master arjun below would like to see my head blown off) - and that is fine.

Re: # 81;tahmed

In that case i just apologise

Sleep well

cheema #82 thanks. no offense taken. have a good night.

#8 Posted by zeemax

Listen, Zeemax!

It takes a lot of courage to come out in the open and talk about the defects of your own culture and your own faith and all the other crappy stuff which passes for Pakistani “honor” than two-syllable cowardly mullah-loving-morons can ever begin to fathom!

Re: # 84; bjk

as I said to hamidm sahib before, the mammals belonging to the species 'Babalus babalis' are not partial to such melodies

cheers

Re: # 43
hamidm mian,
Dont trivialize everything. When you do that there is no difference between right and wrong. And like i said dont equate honor killings with bride burnings, while one is sanctioned by law and can be practiced by any law abiding citizen, the other is a heinous crime which will surely get you life. What are your answers to these following questions?
1) If I am paki citizen can I legally murder my sister as long as my dad is ok with it?
2) Can I legally rape anyone in a womens hostel where there is no man present?
3) Is there any other country in this world, where you can openly murder and rape as many as you want and be respeactable law abiding citizen?
And dont trivialize these serious issues which affect the lives of so many women by your tahmed like comebacks about gujrat and monkeymen.

promising at all.

Dear author,
Please do us a honor and before equating your murderous practices which have legal sanction in your barbatic country, with crimes that are punishable by life/Death sentences in India, please be educated and dont come across as stupid. You are trivializing the very issue that you are taking trying to higlite. Just because murders happen even while there are laws prohibiting it in some country is no excuse to allow murders openly, legally in your country.

promising at all.

Dear author,
Please do us a honor and before equating your murderous practices which have legal sanction in your barbatic country, with crimes that are punishable by life/Death sentences in India, please be educated and dont come across as stupid. You are trivializing the very issue that you are taking trying to higlite. Just because murders happen even while there are laws prohibiting it in some country is no excuse to allow murders openly, legally in your country

"Honor functions as an opiate in backward societies like that of Pakistan"

Miss Rashid,

In calling our society backward, you've exposed the true moral and ethical backwardnes (not to mention: waywardness) of your adopted society. How little you remember or wish to know wearing trousers and a jacket.

Don't equate FATA, Wana, and other Taliban-style areas with the rest of the country. Not everybody here lives on Dollars and Riyals.

Such freelancing (no boss to show you your place) journalism will not get you anywhere.

Ta-ta.

Re: # 4
Very predictable predatory behaviour here. See the 'right' vultures circling this carcass of a piece.

Re: # 11
Let the writer interact to explain instead of hiring mouthpieces.

A surevy in Pakistan will reveal that our urban women live like princesses compared with Najma-goes-to-Toronoto types.

The foot-long tongues they suddenly grow abroad is not needed here. A few misrepresented cases played to the limit by the media do not tell everything. More serious problems exist THERE. Do you watch THEIR talk-shows sometimes?

#89 by tahir

Don't equate FATA, Wana, and other Taliban-style areas with the rest of the country. Not everybody here lives on Dollars and Riyals.

Umm..OK, so Lahore is in FATA/Wana? If you recall, a few years ago Saima Sarwar was shot dead smack inside Asma Jahangir's office by an assassin hired by her father. Her crime? She eloped and married a man she loved, an affront to "family honor".

Re: # 90
Tahiri saab
some people might say that about you too tahiri saab. only you get in after everyone else has gone saab

quality of a REAL scavenger saab. that is even worse than a Baangladaishi saab

salam saab

"You are not worth it (same goes for all the .... hanging around you wagging their tails, i.e., Tahir....the lot".

I have just been informed by the CHOWK staff that a piglet has stooped to make this comment and that there is nothing they can do except burn his effigy in digust.

That piglets have a voice here is very democratic. In the small town that this pilget comes from, usually children tie a rope around such creatures and beat them to their ignominious deaths.

Re: # 92
And where did these assassins come from? Which area Mr. Harish?

Wonderful memory cells...

Mr. Tahir,
A foot long tongue may not be needed and that is why I chose to write in a civilized manner against traditions of oppression which have managed to survive only because of people like you. And trust me, I completely understand how ignorant you are but my goal is to engage people like you in a sensible debate to ensure that women have equal rights in Pakistan so that Najma does not have to go to Toronto to feel like a human being.

Re: # 25
"the ritualistic animal sacrifices held yearly in our Islamic world to commemorate a senile lunatic's alleged 'act of upholding the covenant' to please his divine master and (?)friend (well, he IS called 'Khaleel-ul-llah' for nothing!)."

Live and be damned repeatedly for abusing the Prophets. You will never find your way you lost soul.

On your deathbed, think of the sense I repeatedly tried knocking into your impenetrable skull.

#95 by tahir

Wonderful memory cells...

And a wonderful attempt at being wishy-washy Tahir mian, but it doesn't wash.

Re: # 96
Dear Miss Najma-in-Toronto,

Whatever rights God bestowed upon women through the Qur'an the West is still catching up with. Anything else is delusion. For the meaning of the word DELUSION, may I suggest who to see in Toronto?

That we push things under the carpet is OUR fault, not God's.

What have you really against men, Pakistan, and Islam I'd like to know?

That someone abused you is regrettable. THAT is the way of the heathens.

Rejoice in your new-found relgion, tongue and ex-pat ignorance.

To drag God's name into the title of your piece and have the usual vultures defencively orbit you is even more deplorable.

Ta-ta.

Re: # 98
Again, where did those assassins come from? Which area Mr. Harish?

Re: # 41
This tirade is regrettable.

While those who openly abuse others is bad manners, to earn from a psychotic ex-pat Pakistani is even worse. Who did you mention by name? Sorry I cannot pronounce that bad name.

Regards.

#100 by tahir

Tahir mian, nice try again but it ain't working. Acceptance is the first step towards repair. So when there is a problem, closing your eyes to it or plain obfuscation is not going to make it go away. Islam or any other religion will be judged by the conduct of its adherents.

Now I know you'll jump on to our problems. Sure, Hinduism has it share of problems, but no one is denying it or trying to trivialize it like you're trying to do here. The author is a Paki and she has written about problems in Pakistan. And the first thing you do is say that this happens only in FATA and Wana. Is this all you're capable of?

The foundations of honour killings

In the paki society there is a systematic de-sensitisation of life. It starts early in the childhood. For teh eid, it is the father who brings home the goat, cow or you name it to the home and kills it in front of the children, to infuse in them that killing is a religious function. Then the offals are thrown out to display to the others the man of the house is a killer.

It is widespread in pakistan that stages are erected in public squares where camels are killed and many come aroud to watch the gory death.

It is unfathomable that millions of animals should be killed on a single day in the homes. no definitely the purpose is not eating the meat, it is to graduate the children to major killings.

forthcoming...making of a jihadi...

Re: # 101 and various other ramblings:

aha...looks like the village idiot has been around! damn!! I'd have loved to have been here.....

Azra Rashid...

We have seen in Pakistan that laws are not easy to change, especially when they are enacted by the US-supported dictators who imported Islam to Pakistan and prescribed the "chaadar aur chaar-divari" pill for women.

Ans: Why to bring USA for all the evils?
This mediaval phenomenon (woman as sex object and need to be controlled like any other property) is definitely partially promoted by women itself. Does womenfolk in Pakistan talks against honor killing? This is more of social issue, rather than law and order problem...

Re: # 61
Azra...
Be it bride burning or honor killing, there is nothing honorable about it and it happens in our part of the world with impunity. I don't know the laws against these crimes in India but I know that the situation in Pakistan is not promising at all.

Ans: Indian law is quite good. Only the application and timely delivery depends upon state, monetary condition etc... Police can refuge FIR for large amount of money. Indians cremate body. So, once that is completed, no way you can prove that, whether it was murder or suicide...
Regarding honor killing, it may be limited in couple of states (UP,Bihar, MP). I am not aware of such problem in eastern states and southern states. As per my perception cow belt ( UP and Bihar) is kind of replica of Pakistan. We had a joke, if we are forced to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan, we need to gift them Bihar and UP also...

Re: # 103

continuing on from 103 is what the author has described and I quote. Most of the pakistani families would have heard of some of their relatives, neighbours killing another and getting away with it.
..............

"To deter the girl from this childish notion of love, her family killed the boy and chopped his body into several pieces and promised her the same destiny. And they were successful! As a result, the girl is now afraid for her life and running away from her family. The nameless heroine of this not-so-bollywood story knows that these are not empty threats, not only because the family has shown her what they are capable of doing by killing her lover but also because she sees murders being committed to safeguard a family's honor with total impunity in Pakistan."

Then is also the greatness ascribed to the gaznavis and the ghouris, taught in the schools with all the gory details.

Thus by the age of 18 an average pakistani is completely de-sensitised, is only a fuse away from a suicide belt.

Re: # 103
Jayp...
Ans: You are correct. Violence is indoctrined in early childhood. But that should not make a child subjugative on women-folks. Indian's also perform "bali" during some pujas. But couple of people participate in this kind of activity. Eastern region ( Assam, West Bengal, Tripura, Manipur etc...) is popular for religious sacrifice. These areas have better track record on women empowerment and liberty.

Re: # 106
nkg

In kerala the law is simple, if a woman dies due to un-natural causes within 7 years of marriage, it is mandatory that it be treated as wife torture, husbands family charged, and investigated. Suicide typically results in conviction for the husbands family.

In kerala, the tables have turned, wifes threaten with suicide and blackmail the husbands.

Re: # 108
nkg,

As far as I know, the animal sacrifices are carried out by the priest, not by the head of the house in the backyard with the children as witness.

Erecting galleries for people to see the killing of camels in pakistan is simply barbaric.

Honor functions as an opiate in backward societies like that of Pakistan. But before we go any further, we must clarify what is honor because it remains a widely misunderstood concept. Some believe honor to be self-respect originating from years of discipline, value and status. So automatically people with no status are freed from the shackles of honor - finally some relief for the poor! The dictionary definition of honor is a concept of direct relation between one's virtues and their status within society. In many societies honor by and large remains an external concept of the worth and stature assigned to an individual by the society. So in a way it is evaluation by the society of a person's "character" and actions. Just as character, a woman's honor is also tied closely to her sexuality. Combined with religion and tribalism, honor seeks to subjugate women, and a woman is killed justifiably in the name of honor by her own family for having defiled the family's honor.

A timely article. Timely in the sense that you are trying to bring in a sense of proportion to the debate – but it is an old subject and as you can see hacked about a lot, and every person has an opinion on it. Some them are pretty forthright in throwing it about.
My grouse is this:
(a) Honor functions as an opiate in backward societies like that of Pakistan : I thought religion was the opiate? Or has it changed? By tagging the phrase “backward societies” you have caused great umbrage. Tell, isnt honor also a corner stone of “advanced societies like Canada, US etc. The phrase “my word is my honor” comes to mind. I am unable to fathom this fashion for self-flagellation. This form of self-flagellation is often misconstrued to be a step first in recognizing an evil. Identify it as a bad thing, but do not associate it with a perceived sense of backwardness.
(b) The notion of honor – when you say Some believe honor to be self-respect originating from years of discipline, value and status it misleads readers into thinking an old grandmother is telling us all another tale. Honor killing is an extremely serious issue. But lack of rigor shown here shows your disrespect to the people dying as a result of this, and also to the emotional status of all concerned. You are demeaning everything here. Make no mistake Honor Killing as we know it and read about in the press is one of the most dastardly things which could be every carried out by man on another human being.
(c) people with no status are freed from the shackles of honor - finally some relief for the poor! another statement which made me cringe. You seem to indicate that there is a direct relationship between honor and material wealth. Perhaps its an indication of the callow rich’s shallow mind – one which wants to wear “liberal cloths” while at heart being an elitist prat.
(d) Next you provide a dictionary meaning of “honor” This couple with t above make a compelte mockery of your article and makes one wonder whether your heart is really in it or you are just jumping onto a feel-good band-wagon!
(e) You conclusion based on the above In many societies honor by and large remains an external concept of the worth and stature assigned to an individual by the society is eniterely misleading. In many societies a man’s word is his honor. The very rich can be the most dishonorable as well – they could have the “shaan” and “shaukat” but are the most disreputable and dishonorable people. There is a huge, and yawning gap here.
(f) Then from this material definitions you jump tp this Just as character, a woman's honor is also tied closely to her sexuality I mean for cry out loud – where the eff is the connection. For such a serious subject you seem to be all over the place. The dots are missing even for the reasonably dumb (like me) to join and figure things out.
(g) And then the piece de resistance Combined with religion and tribalism, honor seeks to subjugate women, and a woman is killed justifiably in the name of honor by her own family for having defiled the family's honor You have not set it up properly to be able to reach this point.
Issues like integrity, respect, honesty, fairness, come into play which you have conveniently ignored. Honor is essentially a concept which is both “relativistic” as well an innate, native, one. It is when when two cometogetehr you end up with the killings.
All in all a very severe let down. This whole article.. You could have done tremendous justice to this topic, but you have failed admirably and miserably.
Sad, really sad that a woman cannot articulate herself better.

At the age of twenty this nameless girl fell in love with a boy, Bollywood style

Love and falling in love - is universal - there is nothing hollywood or bollywood about it. That you want to categorise it as such, shews your hand Azra - that you are a wolf in a sheeps cloth!!!!!! 8)

Come on, once more iwill say it - you have taken a serious subject and made it awful to read - turgid, crap, banal, and worse than offal!

Azra,

The tyragedy is that you have carefully avaided the legal basis of teh hinour killing and why no one has dared to change the honour killing laws.

Today the pak supreme court has declared that the law which requires only graduates to take part in elections is illegal.

Tell me Azra, why no one has taken the honour killing laws to the supreme court or for taht matter to the sharia court.

Let me give you a clue....the killings have the sanction of the constitution and the book. Now name the book...

We have seen in Pakistan that laws are not easy to change, especially when they are enacted by the US-supported dictators who imported Islam to Pakistan and prescribed the "chaadar aur chaar-divari" pill for women. The weight of chaadar on a woman's head has transformed sexuality into a burden and the walls of chaar-divari have sought to imprison women behind the closed doors in a manner that one step towards overtly expressing sexuality becomes a crime of the highest degree, the one with moral stamp on it.

The classic elitist middle class rich Hand wringing act. What can we do.....bloody it does not effect you at all - in a material sense other than it tarnishes your perceived image amongstthe goras. So you have to put up a show.

Again, this article gives me the cringes......

Re: # 29
Partha
Now the feminists want 'Human Rights' - as Feminists!

What crap!

Ans: The amount of crime committed against women from the mediaval has no limit. The start of human rights should be with empowering woman. We are doomed (Central Asia and South Asia) due this attitude. Check the successful nations and their track record on woman empowerment....

Read Ramayana. Ram had to break Bow of Shiva and compete with other's to marry Sita. The concept of Swyamvara...The result of 33% reservation in village/local body elections had started showing result in India...
http://www.thp.org/reports/indiawom.htm

Azra - you could have tackled Honor killing as any one or more of the following

(a) as a social phenomenon - where men want to have power over "production" of the next generation. This is interesting as there could be a link between the "backward societies" *the words you used in the article), and "advanced soceities", and perhpas the link to soceities which are not stable (internally or externally).
(B) a religious phenomemon:
(c) simple one of human rights - a right to life.

(c) could be related to both (a) and (b).

the choice was yours, but you missed it. And produced this hash for us to consume.

Yeah, it will produce the required number of interacts and clicks - but that is all it will do nithing more nothing less.

Re: # 110
Jayp..
Ans: I am sure, laws are quite OK in India. It is not only in Kerala, but all over India...But the implementation in Kerala and other southern states can not be compared to that of Bihar and UP. If the bride's parents are poor, they easily get away by bribing the police.
Regarding religious sacrifice, I have said the same stuff.(only couple of people take up the job of actual killing. Most of these sacrifice is generally out of fear, people ask from God/Goddess....)...