Don’t Hang Sarabjeet

Pakistani legal system..well if only they had one. Take the case of national accountability bureau cases, all those..sorry only a few who have been charged have been left free and all cases withdrawn

Then the muktaran mai case. Initially no one was charged per the hoodood law..then five were charged and then ..wait for it, four sentenced to death foe rape in pakistan..well because mushy wanted it to appease the western media.

That is the legal system of pakistan and you talk about any one found guilty by a court in pakistan, what value what credibility any pak system has got, zilch

Re: # 162 Iqbal.

If Indians don't mind sarbjeet getting hanged, then we have no issue. Rest of your post is immaterial. You had 8 years to challenge the legal system, which you didn't. Questioning lax security is no defence and neither it can exhonorate anyone. Case closed.

Re: # 158
DM
Ans: This is possible. Provided, Indian Govt. does not release somebody like Omar Seikh. All the released prisoners from Kandahar Hijack, later proved to be fatal and carried out more henious crime...

Dear Moeed,masadi and Urstruly

The question of hanging Sarabjeet doesn’t arrive. We, Indians don’t mind hanging Sarabjeet provided he is guilty and has really committed the crime. Tell me if the accused Sarabjeet is left free and tomorrow commits a heinous crime in India, Will the Indian Government paradon or exonerate him. These are the questions to be answered. Not only that the witness in this case has taken a 360 degree turn. Some of the relatives of the victims have said they will commit suicide if the accused is left free. But first I ask u honestly to answer my question. What were the pakistani intelligence officials and police agencies doing when Sarabjeet crossed the Border with the Bomb. Where they (Police officials)sleeping or munching peanuts when he was planting the bomb. Since there was no fence or barbed wires, he might have actually slipped across the border. How is it possible for one person single handedly to orchestrate bomb blasts in different cities viz (Lahore, Multan & Islamabad). There must be some local people or local conspirators involved in this crime.

Regards

Iqbal

Urstruly,

Ur points sound plauible but India doesn't resort to Qoranic path to resolve this issue.

Prez of Pakistan is a titular head as on date therefore final decision on Sarabjit wud be taken by the govt of the day; given what the top guys who matter tell, there's a way out for the guy.

The stakes for India as very high as the intevention at the top-most level was applied in this case. So Pakistan wud play ball. Moreover the visit of the Foreign Misniter was fixed during this month followed by PM's slated visit sometime this year. Reckless Pakistan under Mush (if the Gillani's govt is dissolved) wud alone do some adventurous thing......

Instead of guessing abt the outcome, I'd prefer to rely on the key factors in this case. The qisas angle of Qoran is not on table for India at all. Lets see.

Re: # 159

Hey you half-hanood Salim Chauhan, what's your problem?... let pakis free the dude, he has suffered enough... if you have a dude on other side of the border, let's talk about an exchange... otherwise let him go...

The braggging and boasting bravado of self-admitted Indian spy Kashmira Singh upon his release does not help the cause of Sarabjit Singh and that Paki fool Ansar Burney. Of course the mutilated and tortured corpse of Khalid Mehmood taught all foolhardy Pakis the lessons of misplaced clemency for convicted Indians.

#156:

For saving the life of Sarabjit Singh, I think that a swap of prisoners is still a possibility; but to achieve that Indian diplomats will have to display much greater political savvy than they have done so far.

#155155:

I am suggesting that in a case of terrorism allegations involving the citizen of an enemy country with sensitive bilateral relations, political interference cannot be ruled out; whether or not such interference took place I have no way of knowing.

Re: # 154 DM

Try telling that to the dictator's government that his courts are not fair therefore let sarabjit go. I think you are not fully comprehending the garvity of the situation where the life of a man (presumed innocent by many) hangs in balance, and you are trying to engage in ideological debates?

There are only two possible ways to save Sarbjit's life:

1. Either this dicator commutes his sentence, chances of which are becoming bleaker as 1 pakistani per week is being extrajudicially executed in Indian jails.

2. The legal council of Sarbjits files a petition to invoke the law of Qisas. That will buy GOI sometime while they continue their diplomatic efforts on option# 1 as well. Thus GOI will have some leverage.

AS for Sarabjit, frankly, no one in India or Pakistan gives a shit whether he lives or dies. After he is hanged there will be hue and cry for about 7.5 days and no one will remember him until India will hang a pakistani in reciprocation.

#154
"Remember what happened when the CJ took some decision not to the liking of the men in khakis?"

What?
Mostly governments interfere in politically motivated cases.
I doubt that there is much interference in any court system over the criminal proceedings. Unless the case is against a politician and politically motivated.

CJ Iftikhar Chaudry was not removed for some criminal cases. He was asking that people be prosecuted, if there are cases against them. He wanted missing persons to be produced before the courts for prosecution.
He was also running political cases about Mush's election etc.

Urstruly#153:

Are you suggesting that Pakistani courts under military rule were independent of political pressures and decidedly solely on the basis of untainted evidence? Remember what happened when the CJ took some decision not to the liking of the men in khakis?

Besides this case, how many other cases do you know of mercenary,indulging in such acts? Whether it was Sri Lanka, Nepal, Ireland, India or Pakistan ideological considerations seem to be the primary motive.

Re: # 152

What you say is heresay and has no value as an evidence in court of law that could save sarabjit's life.

So far, paid operatives are not commonly known for planting bombs in the trains; this is another reason why this case is so suspect.

Re: # 150
what about the poor blokes who plant bombs in the trains?

Intelligence operatives and agents:

People who cross the border on behalf of intelligence agencies are not "agents" as the term is generally understood. These are poor, poorly educated people who are paid lump sum amounts by the intelligence agents and helped to cross the border to bring some low level information. I know that in the old days, agennts of both countries preferred to recruit Christian Punjabis who had relatives on the other side and could easily merge in the host society. Looks like they have run out of Christians now. But these poor blokes should not be confused with agents on the regular payroll of intelligence agencies.

Urstruly#139:
"From the secular point of view, if sarbjeet is hanged today, indians will hang a pakistani tit for tat"

It seems that you are not quite familiar with how the Indian judicial system works; it is not under political or public pressure. Death sentence is awarded in the rarest of rare cases, not more than five or six hangings have taken place in the last decade or so. However, what goes on in police interrogations or encounters is another matter.

zemax#133:

I haven't read the story but it doesn't look good for poor Sarabjeet. What happened to the followers of the famed Chanakya Neeti?

#135 Posted by iqbal492,

You're really amazing. The people who were targeted in Luna Caprese were FBI/CIA people. They had arrived in unmarked cars with just small stickers on the driver side windows giving the security code for the Embassy entrance. The bombers actually knew when they were going to arrive and where they were going to be seated. In the lawn and not inside. They bombed the lawn. It was not a suicide bomber but a planted bomb well in advance.

And you're worried about who will visit Pakistan? You want Pakistan Police to arrest and prosecute these bombers like petty thieves as if they could?

Grow up, kid.

Re: # 145

I think it is quite humourous who have any interest in wars, like war on terra, indo-pak wars, war of paniput, starwars, etc. etc.

If you still don't get it, R2D2 was the name of a robot in the some early starwar movies, who happened to be gay and whose personality was very much like that of the object of massadais praise.

Re: # 144

Massaddi Mian:

"...R2d(T)32...."

Is this your best effort to introduce humor in your write-ups?

Please remind us the humor in it. Is it you being mathematically challenged or something else?

PM= Pervert Musahrraf
PH= Pervert Hoodbhoy
HM2 & R2d(T)32= your guess is as good as mine ; )

like I said don't hang Sarabjeet before you hang PM, PH, HM2, R2d(T)32 and the rest of the peons of the West thugs that are either butchering the people of this country or facilitating their butchering by the Americans by fact (of hellfires) and by proxy (of policies and the Pak Army).....

People are dying of hunger and deprivation caused disease in both countries by the thousands, with or without suicide bombers, and all they are concerned about is if one side will hang a thug from the other side and is he actually the bomber? And the Einstein wonders how someone could have smuggled a bomb across the border but doesn't wonder how hundreds of thousands sneak across the US border, nor does he wonder how NORAD setup to take care of sophisticated intrusions by the Soviet missiles and fighters, was just clueless about the hijacked planes on 9/11 even after being alerted. These reasons by these dimwits who are defending Sarabjid tells me he must be guilty, he should pray that he is rescued from such BS defense, or he'll be hung for sure. Fools.

Iqbal Singh writes "My question to you how many suicide bombers have been arrested, punished, hanged and their operations foiled"

You are a certified idiot, what part of the body (parts) of the suicide bomber will they arrest? And when it serves the purpose of the powers that be, the US and the Pakistan Army why should they put an end to these? India is a haven for all kinds of dung, does not mean you should free a criminal because many who do it aren't caught. What kind of idiotic logic is this fool...

izuber writes "He is far from death under the circumstances specified by masadi..."

He is not far from death not in his health which is quite bad, nor in his trial which leads to the death penalty. The US A(rse) is cooked in Iraq, they don't have time to worry about Tariq Aziz...

Re: # 135 Iqbal

I proposed some suggestions, with in the legal framework of Pakistan, that if acted upon, would help save life of a convict. It does not matter now whether he was implicated rightly or wrongly, now does it? Yes it is true that under much despised unIslamic law the president has the authrity to spare the life of a convict but in the aftermath of a spate of killings of Pakistani prisoners in Indian jails even this dictator would have problem commuting sarbjeets death sentences.

But I assure you that Sarbjeet's life can still be saved if his legal council invokes the law of Qisas (compensation for murder). If the relatives of the vitims of Sarbjeet accept a monetary settlement or chose to forgive him without accepting any compensation sarbjeet can go home as a free man.

Why can't you see that there is a Divine purpose behind the law of Qisas. Islam does not promote taking human life, even that of a convict, if it could be helped. Therefore, it offers chance for closure to the survivors of a murder victim by forgiving the murderer of their loved one in excahnge for a monetary compensation or without it. Some people forgive their perpetrator for the sake of Allah, others across the globe do it because it makes them feel better about themselves anf gives them the closure to their agony and misery - and that without accepting any monetray compensation.

From the secular point of view, if sarbjeet is hanged today, indians will hang a pakistani tit for tat. And then this circle of depriving human beings their chance to live will continue ad infinitum. God has given us a chance to get out of this vicious circle of tit for tat. It would be our misfortune if we do not avail this blessing.

Re: # 135
Iqbal...

You must read the statement of Andrew Symonds who has openly refrained from visiting Pakistan.

Ans: He is paid 4.5 crore to play for Deccan Chargers. Why he should tour Pakistan?

Re: # 135
Iqbal...
Ans: Couple of valid points...
Without local conspirators, it is not possible to manufacture bomb and blast in three cities single-handedly. If some other Indias were also associated with this, they should be equally punished....
India had more VIP casualties than Pakistan- Mohandas, Indira and Rajiv Gandhis. It has taken several years to punish the killer of Indira Gandhi, though the killers were identified immidietly.Sir, Indian judiciary and police are also very incompetent and corrupt....
Now the suicide bombers in Pakistan are committing crime as per Islam (Halllal) and compliant with sharia/hadith/quoran. Had this fellow (Sarabjit) planted bomb with same compliance (sharia/hadith/quoran)? May be not. So, Sarabjit should be punished not the islamic bombers/jihadis. The people who are loosing there life due to islamic bombs, they will land up in heaven ( with 72 virgins...). Why their kins need compensation?...

serious: What Sarabjit was doing in Pakistan? If he had accidentaly crossed border, he should have brought that in the notice of Pak rangers and BSF. Was his VISA stamped properly?
I am sure, people of Punjab (India) are aware of hostility between India and Pakistan (at that time, Jia regime)...

Somebody has brought price list of life as per saudi government...
I think, Narendra Modi also started following same...
One set of compensation for rioters and another set for train passengers, who were burnt....

Heaven for suicide bombers...

Arjun,
72 arab virgins (in heaven they take bath regularly, unlike in arab countries) is not mean stuff. May be Gibril has increased the quota. We need another Muhammed to listen to Akashvani and convey us the actual amount. So, for a poor Pakistani it is not improper deal...Deadliest suicide bombers are Tamil Tigers. For petty political right, if people can resort to such violence, why not for heaven?

#135 Posted by iqbal492 on April 30, 2008 5:05:14 am


Secondly Pakistan is a haven (paradise) for suicide bombers,


yup...that would be like china importing lead tainted toys...

Dear Moeed and Urstruly

First let the law of the land take its own course. Sarabjit’s case leaves many questions unanswered. First what were the pakistani intelligence officials and police agencies doing when Sarabjeet crossed the Border with the Bomb. Where they sleeping when he was planting the bomb. How is it possible for one person single handedly to orchestrate bomb blasts in different cities viz (Lahore, Multan & Islamabad). Secondly Pakistan is a haven (paradise) for suicide bombers, robbers, smugglers, dacoits. In the past one year there has been so may suicide blasts. Suicide Bombers have targeted everywhere in Pakistan whether market places, public rallies, airports, army recruitment camp, army cantonment, Naval college, Lahore High court, police stations, religious places. My question to you how many suicide bombers have been arrested, punished, hanged and their operations foiled. How may people (victims) have been compensated till today, not even one, forget justice. In the first week of January 2008, 2 dozen policeman were killed outside the Lahore High court by a suicide bomber. The policeman were sitting ducks. Last month a popular Italian restruant was bombed. Most of the victims were Europeans, those who survived have a hearing problem, their ears were blasted. Tell me who will visit Pakistan if this is the case. You must read the statement of Andrew Symonds who has openly refrained from visiting Pakistan. You own Prime Minister Mrs Bhutto was assisnated by a suicide bomber in a gun and bomb blast. Even the Australian cricket team had to cancel their tour after the entire security building was targeted. It was a seven storeyed building. Last year the south Africans had to cancel their visit to Karachi. The first bomb blasts was at a hotel which was done by the RAW according to Pakistani newspapers. Next day there was a second blasts at the same hotel which was done by the hotel management. Actually speaking, there were some differences between the management and the hotel workers. This is the quality, type of Pakistani investigation and reporting.


Iqbal Singh

Ps: When the Olympic torch arrived at Islamabad. U must read the news report from France “Olympic Torch arrives at the land of Suicide Bombers”.

Re: # 122
Naqsa..

I guess we have to deal with it. It was ever thus...when the Chinese become the mightiest nation on Earth (by 2050 or so) do you think they'll be any nicer?

Ans: That situation (China is mighitiest nation) may not happen. The biggest boon (large population) is also the biggest curse for China and India. The internal problem will keep it engaged than to pursue hegemonic action in remote areas. Chinese defence technology is mostly pirated copy of Russia. If Russia joins western european countries, China will face problem.
The basic infrastructure avaialable in EU and North Americas are thousand times better than that of any asian nation (except Korea and Japan). Japan is showing no sign of joining China...
China immensly benefittted by siding with USA when cold war was at it's peak. Recently, USA and NATO agreed to share power (with USSR) in central asia and may help USA fight against Taleban in Afg and Pak...

... in the meantime, India is handing Pakistan another prisoner body at Wagah.

Dost, are they mad or what? Or are they doing it on purpose for some reason?

Re: # 117
He is far from death under the circumstances specified by masadi, he is in the safe-keeping of the USA and accommodated right in the good old US of A.
People better forget him.

Naqshbandi writes "...when the Chinese become the mightiest nation on Earth (by 2050 or so) do you think they'll be any nicer?..."

You cannot justify the current actions of the barbarian country's elite with hypotheticals. China will not become the mightiest country of the world, now more than in the past it is trapped within the machinery of the capitalist system that will keep it subordinate...with minor tweakings using India, Tibet, Taiwan, Japan, Korea etc when it decides to step out of line...

Re: # 86
VRV...
India owes an apology to Pakistan not for the 'killing' of Khalid but the 'death' of the same coz he died in India’s custody. So India shud apologise officially.

Ans: Custodial death in India is not uncommon. If you are Paki and overstaying in India, be prepared for any type of action from Indian police. That is the area, where Indian police can do anything without fear. Westerners receive different treatment.
The Pakistanis, who come with family (mostly medical purpose) are spared. Indian jails are still jails.Only Kiran Bedi tried to change that for Tihar jail(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiran_Bedi). So, more such Khalid you may find from Indian jails ( dying in police custody), unless and until they are hardcore terrorists/islamist ( like Omar Sheik etc...)....Indian police and jail needs reform for last 30/40 years. GOI can not foot the bill now. When India will be rich, Khalids will return from jail to Pakistan.

Re: # 48
Stuka...
My sincere advice to Hindus is that they should make an offer to pay Qisas and Diyat pre-emptively to the next of the kins of sarbjeet's victims. Make them an offer that they ccould not refuse.They must hire lawyers and file a case in supreme court asking for its interference to facilitate Qisas proceedings. "

Sirji, Sarabjit Singh is a Sikh and we are Baniyas. ;)

Ans: What an Idea!!!! And do this rule apply for the general people of Pakistan also? Paying money to evade law (buying law)!!!!

Re: # 95
Treetop...

the year was 2001 and pak economy was in shambles the forex reserves had dwindled to paltry 400m dollars,it was becoming increasingly difficult for pak to pay its debt inst.pakistan was on the verge of bankruptcy,and then boom 9/11 happens all the restrictions are lifted,and money starts pouring from all corners and within 6 months pak forex reserves shoot up to 12 billion dollars.Just for alowing US to use the airspace pakistan collected 7 billion.WAS THIS JUST A COINCIDENCE?
Who are talaibans and alqaida? who was the mastermind behind 9/11and who was pulling thier strings?think about it.
who stood to gain from this surreal drama?
dear indian friends do not under estimate the adventurous spirit of pakistan, when cornered pakistan is capable of doing anything.BEWARE.

Ans: Oh no, I am not undermining nuicense creation capability of Pakistan. I meant, USA had the hard option on Pakistan than using USD12bn. This amount may be petty small for USA, but definitely saved Pakistan to large extent. Pakistan is ally of USA for long time. USA will help Pakistan as much as possible....

Re: # 126 HP

I actually agree with you. I think NS will be let present a resolution in the Assembly and same assembly will overwhelmingly approve it. But when it will go to senate, where 2/3rd majority is that of Lota League and fascists MQM the resolution will be shot down. This is oldest fukking trick in the history of parliaments when the "elected' memebrs do not want to do something. Its gonna be interesting. Meanwhile I suggest people to stay away from crowded places etc.

#121 Posted by Urstruly

No one is walking out of the coalition. The most they will do is suspend the participation of ministers until the constitution package is out. Zardari is providing cover for NS. He will take the blame because he is not going to be impacted by the backlash.

I do think that another campaign by the lawyers would only hurt temporarily. The jolt may actually put the army under pressure more than the civilians.

I saw former Indian FM Mishra’s statement somewhere and I think his idea of India providing support to the civilians will check the Pak army is good.

Re: # 119

Please read that as 'does' have a valid case.

As 'they' say: the truth will set you free.

Re: # 81
Mr. Naqshbandi,

Disregard my abhorence for all things sufi. I'll drink a large glass of 'sattu' (and say cheers too) to your admission that we are 'zinda dil' folks!

Re: # 73

And let us not forget Zeba Bakhtyar marrying and finally divorcing the over-grown Meiji baby!

the golden rule of geopolitics is and has always been, "jiski laaThi uski bhains" or "Whoever pays the piper calls the tunes"...In simpler terms: Might Is Right.

I guess we have to deal with it. It was ever thus...when the Chinese become the mightiest nation on Earth (by 2050 or so) do you think they'll be any nicer?

Re: # 111

Amen,

probably walking out of the coalition will be the only gurantee that they will have for their physical and political survival from now on. I think we have entered the final phase of the mortal combat between people and corrupt, pro-western, oppresive ruling elite.

Power to the People!!!!

the US looks after its own strategic interests first and foremost --and that is not surprising--and will do anything to further them just as other countries will. in the real world of realpolitick that is what matters and everything else and talk of human rights and power of the people via the ballot box is just pious bullshit.

Yes, sometimes, when the entirety of the people unite--e.g. in iran in 1979 -- even the best laid plans of the superpowers come to nothing but those are rare exceptions and not the rule...

that the oil pipeline with pak/india/iran is going ahead is good for pakistan...i hope it brings in lots of money and raises the living standards of the countless poor...if that means working with the devil in the process so-be-it.

you know many consider masadi a madman but when one reads what is actually out there and not in the mainstream media --e.g. the pulitzer prize-winning book , "Ghost Wars" or the book version of Charlie Wilson's War one realises just how far the tentacles of the US --via the CIA --actually reach in determining the fates of elections in other countries...
and that masadi mian may well have a valid case.

#117 Posted by masadi,

Tariq Aziz is not even a Muslim. He's a Coptic Christian. But yes, you're right.

Btw, Tariq Aziz (of Saddam fame) faces the death penalty for having a hand in punishing price hikers (who were sucking the blood of the people). He will be put to death if convicted...

Bush blames Congress for slowdown, wants to make taxcuts (trickle down) permanent, refuses to acknowledge that US is in recession.....and you want to talk about Zardari's waffling.....I told you where these perversions originate, and from there they trickle down to the military and political institutions of the slave countries...

now finally g'night ...

Ras " This Indo-Pak animosity has already created

a fountain of misery.... "

Not as much as the animosity between the elite in the US and the rest of the world, that "fountain of misery" is killing over 40,000 a day, destroying the world's environment and causing food shortages, not to mention the direct killings in laying whole countries to waste, directly and indirectly by pushing militarism and military sales in the hundreds of billions and altering agendas of the developing world from "development" to fighhting farcial wars and causing internal strife. Those barbarians outdo the India/Pakistan BS by a factor of a million to one...

nasah writes "What a sadistic godforsaken subcontinent -- plague be on both houses."

Easy for you to say sitting in or near the most barbaric country the world has seen (I assume USA). Things happen over there that would make the most perverted a-hole in this country of ours remember his mama...

Its all a FARCE, same old sh** Time to raise hell by all and sundry, the country is dying and these fools want more of the same

g'night

Sherry "Ugly" Rehman just declared coalition or no coalition they will continue with their BS...Contesting the elections was a mistake that legitimized a farce (as I wrote as people were celebrating this farce as a 'revolution) and now staying with the coalition is also a mistake. The N should all resign and walkout, as should the others, isolate the sellouts and let them make themselves into a new Q

It is not a good idea to hang some one for reasearch and analysis -- same way to beat someone to death for watching a cricket match without a visa.

What a sadistic godforsaken subcontinent -- plague be on both houses.

#105, that might be

treetop writes "MASADI Sahib;
We cannot take seriously the revelations bestowed upon you
untill you declare your prophethood. "

Humans other than prophets are bestowed with the power of analysis, other than the peons of the West whose intelligence goes to the extent of monkey see what bigger monkey (the white elite) do. If you cannot guage this from your own pathetic condition, look at the "ideal type" peon of the West, tahmed, the poor fool has spent his entire life trying to defend lies and because of a few $$ which his masters throw at him when he whelps, he has sold his nation, his soul and his family for their worship.....read his posts and learn what you are fast becomming fool

tahmed writes "there is hope for correction in case of a miscarriage of justice - as happens everywhere, but particularly more so in developing countries..."

Shut up you ignoramus regarding the "developing countries". Nowhere in the developing world are a third of the young males of a particular race involved as offenders with the criminal justice system, as in the USA. Nowhere in the developing world is rape the least convicted of all crimes, nowhere in the developing world is the per capita prison rate as high as it is (in the USA) and nowhere in the developing world is there eleven to one disparity in implementation of the death penalty as the USA

(quote)

Death By Discrimination:Skin colour influences who lives and dies in the US judicial system Amnesty International

"Today, whether you live or die in the USA as a result of your crimes appears to be largely determined by the colour of your own skin and the race of your victim," said Pierre Sané, Amnesty International's Secretary General, during the launch of the report, adding that "the Federal authorities are unwilling to act because of the popularity of the death penalty." ...........
The odds of a death sentence in cases in which blacks killed whites has been shown to be as much as 11 times higher than in the murder of a black victim by a white person."

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510751999?op en&of=ENG-392


----

ras #104 greetings. I think simply banning the death penalty, as is being proposed, is the best option. So at least there is hope for correction in case of a miscarriage of justice - as happens everywhere, but particularly more so in developing countries.

#99 Posted by masadi,

But I had always stated that Benazir was not killed by any suicide bomber or shooter but someone in a window far away with a high powered rifle. Rest were all decoys.

If he was not involved in murder then he should be

released. This Indo-Pak animosity has already created

a fountain of misery....

#90 Posted by majumdar,

Yes. How wrong I was. HP and Masadi were right.

MASADI Sahib;
We cannot take seriously the revelations bestowed upon you
untill you declare your prophethood.

later...

The US elite gave the go-ahead to the Pakistan army thugs to kill Benazir, arranged in no little part by Zardari and the info minister and others who are going to spill the beans sooner or later...The reason: the center of the farcial WOT is now shifting from Iraq towards Pakistan, and it will involve geographical restructuring of the area as well, the mullah will be injected with super strength testosterone for the purpose.....

#40 Zee writes "and a major power is involved in her murder.."

Check my ilog posted on the day she was butchered...

If I am incoherent sometimes it is because my link with the (BS) matrix was severed after I discovered the "real world", and when I try talking to those deeply immersed in it and in their language, it sounds incoherent to them....in other words in their inverted reality the schizophrenics, the members of the 'mass society' think that those in the real world, the very few of us are the sick ones...................

Correction: This guy is as clueless as a (lost) tourist from tokyo lost in Chicago's Cabrini Greens

#93tahmed writes "By trying to play games with the restoration of the judges, zardari has indicated the same lack of concern for the rule of law as musharraf. ...As for the "compromises" you say zardari is making, these are the same unprincipled "compromises" that musharraf made when he made "deals" with mullah fazloo."

This guy is as clueless as a lost tourist from tokyo lost Cabrini Greens in Chicago. Best get your ass together and run off before you get caught in some crossfire fool. The ONLY compromise Musharraf made was with the devil itself, the US elite and that put the entire nation onto this destructive path, never forget that, second, powers bigger than Zardari are making him waffle, nor is he a meglomaniac as Zee suggest (he wrote "HP, seriously I think Zardari has become a mad megalomaniac very fast"), rather he has toned down his maniacal nature, he is a mere peon who was promised a trend breaking political role by the US after they got rid of his wife, the US now wants to incorporate the political into the power equation with the military to a greater extent than before, that is why you see his railing against this and that, in the end as the old saying goes, "Actions speak much louder than words", he will never go against the military, never against the structure of power that the US wants, the restoration of judges, removal of the illegal judges and the "rule of people's law"- not the US BS, is what will set a bad precident for the US and its BS in Pakistan. That is the only reason why this fool is waffling, they wont allow it. You do not need packages to undo what was against the law to begin with, and you don't need waffling and the PM does not need the go ahead by the party chief feudal thug in order to do the right thing or he is violating his own oath- comprendey now? And the sob excrement of the army, Musharraf should face a carried out by the state, public execution and nothing less for what he did with the nation, but is that going to happen? This fool tahmed will deliberately mask the higher powers that regardless of the rhetoric of one side or the other determine affairs of consequence in Pakistan. Restore the judges, rattle the structures of power and we'll have martial law at the very least, with new elections and a Q victory forthcoming......now carry on tahmed with the "rule of law" BS

the year was 2001 and pak economy was in shambles the forex reserves had dwindled to paltry 400m dollars,it was becoming increasingly difficult for pak to pay its debt inst.pakistan was on the verge of bankruptcy,and then boom 9/11 happens all the restrictions are lifted,and money starts pouring from all corners and within 6 months pak forex reserves shoot up to 12 billion dollars.Just for alowing US to use the airspace pakistan collected 7 billion.WAS THIS JUST A COINCIDENCE?
Who are talaibans and alqaida? who was the mastermind behind 9/11and who was pulling thier strings?think about it.
who stood to gain from this surreal drama?
dear indian friends do not under estimate the adventurous spirit of pakistan, when cornered pakistan is capable of doing anything.BEWARE.

Salim #67 we are basically on the same page here. The rule of law is the paramount and common interest for all Pakistanis. because only then is any kind of economic progress or civilized life possible. If ever there was an issue where all Pakistanis - regardless of ethnicity - need to stand united it is on this issue of the rule of law.

HP#72 By trying to play games with the restoration of the judges, zardari has indicated the same lack of concern for the rule of law as musharraf. By reneging on his promise at Bhurban, zardari has indicated the same lack of concern for his personal integrity as musharraf. He has not yet fully demonstrated the personal vanity of musharraf, but has shown indications that he is of the same mold here as well.

As for the "compromises" you say zardari is making, these are the same unprincipled "compromises" that musharraf made when he made "deals" with mullah fazloo.

These weaknesses on the part of musharraf have cost the nation heavily, and the same weaknesses on the part of zardari are costing the nation even more.

It is no longer the "thin line" of lawyers alone that is fighting for save Pakistan now. The panjab government is in place, and nawaz sharif and the rest of PML have been firm on this issue. The frontier government is in place, and wali khan and the rest of ANP is fully supportive of PML on this central issue.

I asked eklavy saab that zeemax munafiq saab says he has had sex recently with women in muscat. I say that is wrong but eklavy saab say it is ok as the girls had good time too.

i ask as Islam stops us from comitting "zina" why it is ok for zeemax to have sex and not others saab?

this is what zeemax saab says
{"Yaar forget it. I just fucked half a dozen hindoo wenches in three holes each last week in Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat. This idiot just wants one Muslim right? So all I'm saying is go ahead and do it."}

this is the conversation with eklavy saab that i had and then he did not reply to,

eklavy saab,

the question was not about what individuals got out saab

question is about moral value saab

for example, is it ok saab if i have sex with zeemax's sister saab without marrying her saab?

as long as she has good time saab and i guarantee that saab

is zeemax saab happy about that saab? you should check with him saab

what is good for him saab is goo for me saab

then he should not bring Quran e Majid into this saab as Quran e Majid clearly talks of this as a moral issue saab and not just individual matter of having good time saab

maybe zeemax saab can reply as i want to make sex with his sister and if i can go ahead or not saab

all i want to know saab if it is ok for zeemax to drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage then why cannot the ordinary man and woman in my country.

there seem to be double standards, no??

Re: # 87
Tree...
They want to blackmail US...

Ans: Is it so? I think the reverse...the famous Richard Armitage threat ( "...back to stone age". Anyhow Pak is already in 7th century. It does not make much damage) and Pak owner ( General+reformer+president+....) brought to the knees...

Dash,

Just the other day Zee sahib was mentioning that the Pakis had the US by their balls.

Regards

#87 by treetop

pakis standereds are little higher,they like to blackmail U.S. not a pauper india.

Compared to Pakistan, India still comes out looking richer.

Re: # 87 precisely - if we take the doctrine enunciated by Urstruly so effectively here on chowk sometime back (in the after math of the nuke blasts) then the US is the one being blackmailed here.

I would have thought sitting on the treetops you would get a better view of the land. Maybethe rarified atm and lack of xygen.....;)

Re: # 85
pakis standereds are little higher,they like to blackmail U.S. not a pauper india.

I read this article in Daily Times. The journo of Pakistan is making a case of Sarabjit's release with a rider and that sounds very reasonable.

The person who kept the ball rolling is Ansar Burney even tho he's now labelled as an Indian agent. If the generation of Kuldeep Nayyars is fading but the spirit of goodwill living thru the ppl of Burney-genre.

India owes an apology to Pakistan not for the 'killing' of Khalid but the 'death' of the same coz he died in India’s custody. So India shud apologise officially.

The art of spying is as old as the history of kingships but Indians seem to depend on poor, gullible farmers, soldiers for espionage. The art of spying is now hi-tech but India's spies are of the breed of bygone era.

This drama of holding each other's men as trophies is the baggage of history and ppl like Burney are trying to undo this mindset but the entrenched interests are trying their best to keep their hands busy.

++

India has of late set in motion a series of contacts with Pakistan and Pakistan on its part - thru the new govt - is making right sounds that shud lead to eventual release of not only Sarabjit but hundreds of such Indian men in Pak jails. The most disgusting thing abt India is that it's tight-lipped as well as moving slow on reciprocation.

The real reason for all this niceness is a 2600Km long Metallic Garland which Pakistan wants to put around its neck - which will give it some money and maybe trade as well.

Oh, BTW Ahmadinejad is visiting delhi soon.

This is called blackmail is everyday parlance. Let us see what happens next?

apparently the guy is going to live a for a few days more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7372536.stm
06:48 GMT, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 07:48 UK

Hanging of Indian 'spy' deferred

#82 by sachasaint

The case has been proven.

Abay if Sarabjit indeed planted those bombs, what was the need for keeping him in prison for 18 years? And even if he is indeed guilty, 18 years is punishment enough. That's what we're saying, and even Nawaz Sharif seems to have joined in the chorus along with Burney to get the man released, even if as a quid pro quo.

The man has killed innocent Pakistanis. Every court from the sessions court to the supreme court found the man guilty of murder and terrorism against Pakistanis on our homeland.
This man was using these means to instigate war against Pakistan.
The case has been proven. Hang him!

This is the law of the Land.

majumdar,

as a panjabi i agree! we r zinda dill alright! ;-)

i had assumed zardari was a feudal buffoon but i heard this interview with him on bbc world service yesterday and, like him or loathe him, the man is extremely eloquent and has a certain charm. His arrogance was breathtaking: his public attempt at charming Jemima Khan's panties off was incredible for its audacity and speaks of a man used to getting his own way. Listen to it here: (Interview by Owen Bennet Jones):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/the_interview.shtml

#78 Posted by majumdar,

Yes of-course. Thanks for the correction :)

Zee sahib,

Btw Ms. Alam's first hubby is a FORMER CM of Punjab, not the current incumbent. The said gentleman is the current Maharaja of Patiala and his ancestors (particularly one Maharja Bhupinder Singh) were much famed for their rangeela characters.

Regards

#76 Posted by majumdar,

You bet they do. The lady in question is a hot number, still!

Zee sahib,

You have to give credit to the Punjoos where they deserve it. They know how to live life.

Regards

... I watched the interview live.

#72 Posted by HP,

HP, seriously I think Zardari has become a mad megalomaniac very fast. He expressed his contempt for Judiciary, Lawyers, Army, ALL political parties except his own whom he believes he has successfully manipulated and they're all dependent on him and him alone and he on no one, and seems to believe fate has put him in an all-powerful position where he can get back at everyone for jailing him. Politics of revenge. Same thing as his wife, with the only difference that Benazir was taking revenge of her father, and Zardari believes he will take revenge for his wife' murder and his own imprisonment.

#932 Posted by tahir Re: # 918 (carried over):

"Gen Yhaya’s friend was Gen. Rani. She is the grandmother Adnan Sami"

... and the mother (Rani's daughter) is Uroosa Alam, the great English language journalist, and second (occasional?) wife of the Indian Punjab's Chief Minister. Can you believe how far the reach of kanjarpana is?

Zeemax, Tahmed,

I watched Zardari interview and I understand what he is saying.
I don't think it really matter whether the judges are restored in 30 or the 60 days.

What surprises me is that the lawyers, who get paid for negotiations and arguing their cases, never asked to see Zardari or the PM or even Nawaz at one place to present the CJ case or to help remove his doubts abt the judiciary.

It is one thing to fight an army general but using the same tactics against the civilians that are willing to talk or negotiate, is not entirely a good way to resolve the issues.

I don't know whether you actually watched the interview or not and I see in the papers that no one reported the most important thing that he said in the interview. He said it quickly but he may be right that there are some elements from the establishment that are trying to create a rift between the PPP, MLn, and the lawyers.

He clearly said what the hurdles are and it is important for him to approach the lawyers to resolve the issue.

I think in the long run lawyers taking the streets would be good. They can really intensify the conflict and might be able to bring out other sections of the population on the streets. A little anarchy may actually be helpful.

Oh Yes! Forgot about the main topic.

Yes, hang the terrorist bastard.

treetop #69 {"salim sahib
You have questioned the questionable intellect of the pakistani populace by elevating the status of Zardari to that of a statesman"}

Mr.Top Branch,
I defer to the Theory of Relativity which states that all qualities and vices are relative. In Paki politics, Zardari appears as a statesman. Heck, if Mushy can be President, Zardari can be Mother Teresa.

BTW, Mr. Branch, I do like your style - guerilla warfare at its best. Good luck to you, sir.

Re: # 67 salim sahib
You have questioned the questionable intellect of the pakistani populace by elevating the status of Zardari to that of a statesman.Even Machavely would be throwing up in his grave by the induction of Zardari in the hall of statesmen.

#67 *upon his party and not up his party

HP,Zeemax, and Tahmed32
We need to separate the extinguishing aspirations of the lame duck dick traitor from the genuine concerns of the Urdu-speaking citizens of Pakistan. It is obvious that MQM and its absentee strongman in London do not represent the legitimate interests of Karachi or Pakistan.

The people of Pakistan voted overwhelmingly, despite all forms of rigging and pressure by Mushy, for the restoration of true democracy. Urdu speaking people, above all else, are Muslims and Pakistanis first. Any attempt by MQM or Mushy to hijack their interests will backfire.

While Asif Ali Zardari has demonstrated superior statesmanship and diplomacy, he should not squander the goodwill and trust that the people of Pakistan have bestowed up his party and coalition. The very fact that Mushy is President is an insult to democracy, the rule of law, and the image of Pakistan. The dick traitor used a lame duck Parliament to manufacture an outcome that would never have occurred in an honest vote. He had already manipulated the judiciary to cause a favorable outcome for himself. Even the most stupid person can recognize the shenanigans of this buffoon who has stayed on the stage far too long for any audience not to vomit.

The justices must be restored, including the reinstatement of the CJ and then Mushy must be removed, tried, and hanged for his usurpation of power and betrayal of Pakistan. I supported Mushy when I thought he was the least of all evils for Pakistan. I detest Mushy when he is the most obvious evil confronting Pakistan. I supported the MQM when it was struggling for the rights of Karachiites. I am now against the MQM for its support of Mushy and its role as spoiler in the redemocratization of the nation.

#62 zeemax: "They talk in the language of bullets and bombs."

however: the pen is mightier than the sword. the mullah may have the guns, but the civil society of Pakistan has God on its side. but dont let that stop you from dreaming of mullahs taking over pakistan.

Devil's Advocate HP #61:

1. On What Zardari promised: he never mentioned any package deal in Bhurban. There is no question he made a promise he did not plan to keep.

2. On military/US/EU pressures: This is a poor excuse. The tremendous people's mandate PPP received gives it the legitimacy it needs. If it refuses to exercise it, then it has done nothing less than betray the trust of the people when they voted for it. In stalling on the judges issue (when it could and should have restored them at the same time they were freed) the PPP leadership has lost credibility - the same way ZAB lost credibility when he similarly betrayed the false hopes he created.

3. On provincial issues: Contrary to what you think, the judges issue is one that affects every single pakistan - since it goes at the heart of whether Pakistan will be ruled by law or by strongmen (waderas, ghondas, or military generals). As a practical matter, if waderas and mqm ghoondas are too strongly entrenched in Sindh (as per the Zardari-altaf friendship), if mullahs and tribal rulers are too strongly entrenched in NWFP and Baluchistan, then that is no reason for the panjab to step back on this issue.

Finally, you write: "Now they need to figure out how to keep pressure on the PPP and the Parliament to restore the judges and bring Musharaf down thru the Supreme Court." Agreed. And that is why Nawaz Sharif and PML are now the standard bearers alongside the lawyers on what is nothing less than the Freedom Struggle for Pakistanis.

HP,

Who the eff is zardari to decide whether the judges should be restored or not given whatever pressures. This is what the people voted PPP into power for. USA, Army or not. People want Judiciary restored - period.

But he has spilled it. And he too will be hung for that alongwith musharraf ... side by side.

#61 Posted by HP,

Why're you avoiding stating that the European Union also said the Karachi election was rigged by MQM?

#58 Posted by tahmed32,

Mehsuds don't ask for votes, nor do they care about these. They talk in the language of bullets and bombs. And you'll see whether the lawyers join them or not.

I don't think PML-N will be able to do much either, even though they would not want to. I think eventually they will join the bullet vote as well.

What else can a person do with zardaris and musharrafs?

#53 Posted by tahmed32
“Also I think Zardari has made a huge blunder by making it clear that he never meant to live up to his commitment to restoration of the judges.”

He did not say that. He said that it will be done thru a package. However, that too is a vague promise and I don’t expect any action on that.

Let me be the devil’s advocate here.

Apparently, the coalition and Pakistan are under tremendous pressure from the Pak army and perhaps the US to keep Mush as president. It seems to me that choice is between Mush and the Judges. You bring Judges in, Judges would go after Mush. Annoying both the US and the army and they may act against the parliament. Where do you go from there?
Remember just the other day the EU secretary firmly and publically said that Musharaf will complete his term…Wasn’t that a strong message for the political parties?
Army is dragging its feet on the Baluchistan issue. Akhtar Mangel is still in jail along with thousands of Baloch nationalist. What is important saving Baluchistan or the Judges?

In reality the Judges issue is just a symbolic issue. Three smaller provinces don’t see it as the primary issue. For NWFP the primary issue is the situation in FATA. For Baluchistan the primary issue is the release of Baloch leaders , workers, withdrawing the army from Baluchistan, and the missing persons. For Sindh, it is about jobs, the law and order, and thousands of unresolved issues. Did you read about how thousands of people swarm the secretariat and ministers offices in Karachi everyday for resolution of problems that were shoved under the rug by the previous govt.?

From the PPP pov, any confrontation over the judges’ issue will not help the country. If the govt. is forcibly dissolved, a great opportunity to help the constituents will be lost in every province but Punjab.

There are two groups in the judges’ issue the PMLn and the Lawyers. The whole thing is a setback for them as they were looking for an easy victory and a grand victory parade in Lahore. That did not happen so they are in for a long haul. I think they should move forward with their plans and come out on the streets. Build pressure the govt wouls use that pressure to get a deal from the army.

As I see it, Zaradri failed to convince the army that Judges are needed and Musharaf is not. Not every issue in politics is resolved. Some issues are used for bargaining, some to fight another day and some for getting to some other things. The MLn and the lawyers wanted the judges back to get Musharaf.

Now they need to figure out how to keep pressure on the PPP and the Parliament to restore the judges and bring Musharaf down thru the Supreme Court.

Anyhoo - if you pakis need any other reason to let this dude go - we let your 90K pows go, so give us one back... quid pro quo...

#57 thanks.

#56 zeemax: How many votes did Mehsud get in the last elections? :-)

In any case, I think the PML is doing a great job of not letting Zardari get away with being "overclever".

..if he had said aired his grievances in Bhurbhan rather than making false promises at that time.

This is very well said.

tahmed32,

tahmed, Baitullah Mehsud will hang Zardari upside down. Even you don't realize the consequence of this.

I'll post a pic on UP tomorrow from near Peshawar. Watch it. I've run out of threads today.