The Power of Faith

Re: # 39
Thanks for replying with Khanish fervor; I can sense how vexed you must feel sitting far away from your ex-countrymen.

I'm glad that link opened your eyes. Many windows on the web will show you the truth, others will lead you to a spiritual dead-ends.

You said "it is only in Western countries where you can get access to all information irrespective of ideology".

Is this the reason you left Pakistan? I've read many banned books right here and nothing has ever stopped me from doing whatever research I like doing. Calling it Pakiland is offensive. Is that how you represent us there (I'm assuming you're half a Pakistani and a full Australian by now)? And I hope you have no connection with a blasphemous kangaroo that now practises surgery in down-underwear?

The true mirror is the Qur'an if one wants to see what one looks like, and NOT some Ibn Warraqa anti-Islam rambling.

Be strong and upright. If you can't defend yourself, nobody out there will do it for you.

I wish you well (happy?).

Re: # 38
Glad you liked it. What else can a man do?

A simple walking stick is sometimes better than a specially-trained dog to lead the blind.

Regards.

My dear sirs:

I do not think for a second that anyone of the interactors have read the entire article; at best they have glanced at it or at best read the teaser! That is not on. The article is neither about conversion nor about opening up of more madrassahs as has been suggested. The point is that due to ignorance amongst Muslims especially the Pakistani lot who has been educated about Islam through Islamiat 101 and so on, the true spirit of the religion as envisaged by the Holy Prophet got lost somehow in the clutter and noise of the so called Aalim Deens, and an ordinary Muslim living in Pakistan does not know the difference between the true meaning of Shadaat or the true sense of the word jihad. Thanks to the westren media, the word jihad has been distorted to a point where the word itself has lost its meaning. I am no scholar but when my five year old asks me why is someone killing a lot of people in the name of jihad, frankly my dearests, I have no answer! This statement does not indemnify the state of affairs that prevails in modern world today and Muslims are not the only culprits so to speak, Jews have done it, Christians have done it and still do it, Hindus did it, Surbajeet Singh is one that comes to my mind.

To all that have gone into a different tangent, I request to read the full article and try to get the jist of it and not take sentences out of the context!

Thanks

Re: # 36 Tahir:

Do you have the courage to say what you have written in front of Muslims ?

Re: # 38:
"
What this means in this context is that we cannot even accurately discuss Islamic views on topics such as gender relations or warfare without also, at the same time, discussing Islamic views on economics, social justice, sexuality, political relations, etc. In Islam, the whole illustrates the parts, and the parts, in turn, illustrate the whole. Any discussion of particular ayats that may appear to countenance aggressive violence or sexism must also, at the same time, refer to other seemingly unrelated topics. In Islam, many topics that may seem unrelated to some people are in fact related and shed light on each other and cannot be discussed apart from each other
"

Granted Islam is this giant system which includes the best modules for manufacturing lifted from SAP, financial modules lifted from Oracle Finacials and Human Resources from .. not only that it also has Maya for sexy animations, well integrated Java, Tomcat and C++. But the real problem is the underlying 7th century Bedouin OS. Even the best of the super processor (called prophet) could not load this giant koranic Islam. There were perpetual page faults with this super processor. So they came up with Hadith.

Give me something like ruby which is small, easy to put it in practice by prototyping and does not depend on external resources .. I should not be referring to the Book on the disc to execute every instruction .. everything should be on RAM as today youcan have 16G RAM with 64B processor.

Don't give me organized religion. I will discover my own Dharma if you keep it simple ie All are One, Every Being is inherently seeking Bliss/Goodness/Anand, universal Consciousness pervades and resides in each one of us.

Glanced the article ... felt there is wailing. Author is wailing that there is no enough Islam.

Abrahmic religions make us "sinned ..destined to hell." It saps our self esteem. Then we are easy to give in to the prison/legion hierarchy. For the legion's survival there has to be external enemy all the time. So Islamic folks constantly complain Darul-something. This legion gets its marching orders on Friday Fatwas. Pyramid schemes sell their wares capitalizing on greed of potential converts. Here what is peddled is heaven with wide eyed houris. They will never say you are fine as it is... No need to waste your energy for/on houris ... go out and enjoy a good run. Seems Forrest Gump was a true prophet.

#39 Posted by TaureanKhan,

That article is written by a Jeremiah D. McAuliffe, Jr., Ph.D. Obviously a Convert.

My point is, Muslim Converts are the staunchest Muslims of all because they do not have the 'rudimentary knowledge of their faith' as correctly termed by Nadeem Akram here. Instead, they study it as a 'system' carefully and only then decide.

This is the reason that Muslim converts from other religions, without any missionary influence, are beyond comparison Vis a Vis their numbers than between any other ones combined.

Tahir,

Thanks for providing that excellent link. It again proves my point: you cant analyse religion by Scientific method. but if you cannot analyse religions in simple ways.... does that mean that everyone need to have the intellectual capacity of a philosopher to understand Islam?

Regarding your comment on Kangaroo Land, it is only in Western countries where you can get access to all information irrespective of ideology. Will a Muslim country like PAkistan allow such free flow of information?


Labelling people as 'misled' again proves my point. People like you avoid looking at alternative views....Looking at alternative views is not being misled...it means expansion of intellectual horizons/maturity... In my post I did not say that I am antimuslim or Kafir... I am just looking at various view points (you have helped me in that by giving that link!) .......... calling me names i.e Cahn is typical ad hominem.

Regards

T Khan

#37 Posted by tahir,

Wow! This is what I've been saying all along. Great link.

What this means in this context is that we cannot even accurately discuss Islamic views on topics such as gender relations or warfare without also, at the same time, discussing Islamic views on economics, social justice, sexuality, political relations, etc. In Islam, the whole illustrates the parts, and the parts, in turn, illustrate the whole. Any discussion of particular ayats that may appear to countenance aggressive violence or sexism must also, at the same time, refer to other seemingly unrelated topics. In Islam, many topics that may seem unrelated to some people are in fact related and shed light on each other and cannot be discussed apart from each other.

Mr. Cahn/Khan (and others who are misled),

Do read this too:
http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/warraq.htm

Re: # 31
"I suggest you guys go through 'Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq.... if anyone of you has done that please share your views. It is not available in Paki-land"

The advantage of living in Kangaroo-land is that you can read such trash and recommend it to others! I'm glad you're out of harm's way over there. Do you really know this rat? read on:

"Ibn Warraq was born into a Muslim family and grew up in a country that now describes itself as an Islamic republic. His earliest memories are of his circumcision and first day at Quran school, and his family still consider themselves Muslims. He, however, now considers himself a secular humanist who believes that: `all religions are sick men's dreams, false - demonstrably false - and pernicious'.

For Ibn Warraq support for Rushdie has to be seen as part of a larger war against the rise of `fundamentalist` Islam: For those who regret not being alive in the 1930s to be able to show their commitment to a cause, there is, first, the Rushdie affair, and, second, the war that is taking place in Algeria, the Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, a war whose principal victims are Muslims, Muslim women, Muslim intellectuals, writers, ordinary decent people. This book is part of my war effort.

These facts and arguments concern the wholly human origin of the Quran.

Finally, we should note two further important points made by Ibn Warraq. First, that Islam never really encouraged science, if by science we mean `disinterested enquiry'. What Islam always meant by ' knowledge' was religious knowledge, anything else was deemed dangerous to the faith."

Good-bye Mr. Cahn (or is it Khan?)

Re: # 27
Mr. Rashid,

You made some fine points but by stating "This is what has happened with all RELIGIONS. Religions are based on personality cult..." you missed something essential.

SECTS are based on personalities, not religion. Hence when Orientalists use the term 'Muhammedan' for Muslims, they imply as if the Prophet invented it all! This is wrong.

Every community needed to heed to what was revealed to it according to the social, moral or economic conditions of its time. That the Qur'an is the final message means that we now know practically everything about past cultures and their decadent life-styles. We need to identify the traps set by Satan for mankind and stay on the 'path of safety' in all matters.

I wish you peace.

Re: # 24
Mr. Maj,
If He likes obedient beleivers and the do-gooders, it means He dislikes the arrogant and the disobedient.

You'll have to read the relevant verses of the Qur'an to see Satan's attitude and how this force was declared 'outcast', 'reject'.

Do read the Book if you have time; better yet, find some time.

Regards.

Re: # 27

Rashid Sahib

Incisive, intelligent, brave and worth reading again and again.

Re: # 27- Rashid:

You are a bad Muslim who corrupts young Muslims.You should be banned from Muslim Ummah. What do you say?

Kamath

Dear Friends,

We cannot convince each other on meta-physical issues relating to religion which are I guess beyond the 'human intellectual machinery' i.e. the 'scientific method' cannot be applied to them. The age old effort to find the proof of the existence of God is one example. Even if you make a convincing argument (Has Richard Dawkins made one?), I bet people wont change their beliefs..

However, I strongly advise everyone to know about different view points regarding religious doctrines etc and compare ... just for the fun of it!!!

For a start, I suggest you guys go through 'Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq.... if anyone of you has done that please share your views.It is not available in Paki-land but if you google it, you can find it a free online version... I also suggest reading Ghamdi... very interesting stuff!

Again, dont read for conversion to a view point.... read for comparison of view points......This is harder to do!

Warm Regards


T Khan
Sydney

nadeem,

the real land of milk and honey per the islamic system is happening in nwfp. You should move there.

This is also in line with pak military doctrine of strategic depth. They wanted taliban in afghanistan for the sake of strategic depth, now they have agreed to create a taliban country in NWFP and the pak military has withdrawn from there, the final escape place when the indian troops move in.

But the history will repeat itself, the afghan taliban were bombed out and moved to NWFP, they will be bombed out and will move to interior pakistan. wait for that to happen.