The Power of Faith

Re: # 53
"Abramhmic religion makes god alien, separate from us. It destroys our culture. Asks us to disown our ancestors, our language our saints and even our leaders. Not only that it asks us to disown our names."

You have a choice Mr.Guru, don't accept Islam! And when you've decided that, please refrain from commenting about its 'destructive' influence on ancester and grave-worship.

It probably destroys you, but it works for all of us!

Shaanti.

"
I'm sorry you think this way. The Qur'an does NOT speak of Adam as a sinner who is on earth suffering a jail sentence! He was forgiven when he realised and repented. Now his descendants are supposed to make earth a peaceful and just place according to God's revealed Law. Satanic ideas ruin us and are a source of all of our sorrows. The evil force is the TEST that we must understand and pass!

So simple! Even Plato admitted that the purpose of the soul is to indulge in virtuous activity.
"

Who is this damned Adam? A book which refer to these alien creatures need not be accepted first, esp. from wolf in sheep clothing. India suffered because of wrong understanding of Buddha & Jaina, the strengthening of arm was neglected.

Now what did this creature Adam realized? What is this crap of repenting? Guilt & repenting is a heinous crime one does on himself. He ceases to be a human. It's just a step above Suicidal Consciousness. Truly Pishachya! No wonder such verbiage creates suicidal Jihadis.

If the followers of this legion of yours are true repenters, like this Adam guy, then when they realize there mistakes, for example, of the near past, following need to happen: Instead of crocodile repenting and crying, Bakis will pay in $s for Kargil, pay to BDs esp the Hindus of BDs who suffered the most for the their holocoust (majority of intellectuls brutally murdered on 25th March 71, Dhaka university were Hindus) and compensate for Mumbai blasts of 7/11/2006 and of 92-93. Actions would speak louder! Compensate to Jagdeesh Kumar's family. It's one thing to write eulogies for Nirmala Didi and completely different which needs integrity to do something concrete for Justice. This "wordy" legion is devoid of basic humanity or spirituality. A giant cruel pyramid scheme indeed!

Re: # 35

[SECTS are based on personalities, not religion. Hence when Orientalists use the term 'Muhammedan' for Muslims, they imply as if the Prophet invented it all! This is wrong.]

I wonder if that means one can be a free-lance monotheist and do good without having to believe in mohammed?

This question, of course, is purely rhetorical...

Re: # 58; Taureen

Here is that quote that I found on the net but details the predictable response one gets from the 'muslim believer' when one 'asks questions' that require some metabolic activity in one's brain cells!

[Dear brothers and sisters in islam:

We live in kuffar country and daily we have to face the infidels who criticize islam and our prophet, and who want to debate us. In an Islamic country if some one did that all we have to do is to announce loudly what he said and the rest is taken care of by an angry mob. The critic is lynched in no time. End of the story. However here we don't have that luxury as yet. Inshallah in forseeble future after we grow by conversions of morons and criminals in prisons, legal and illegal immigration and procreation we will, inshallah, become a majority and will not have to face this problem on daily basis. However, for the time being following is an approach all muslim brothers and sisters can use when faced with such a pest. Jazakallah Khair. Inshallah the vermin will steer clear of you in future.
1. A popular question is "why islam calls for death of Islamic critics and apostates". Insist that their info is false. Quote aya "to you your religion and to me my religion".

2. To answer "Islam spread with sword", say that it is a big lie spread by the jews and hindus and that quran clearly says " there is no compulsion in religion".

3. If some one quotes violent ayas from Koran, accuse him of quoting ayas in bits and pieces and cherry picking .

4. If he then quotes full ayas and ayas before and after, than insist that the translation is wrong.

5. If he brings ten different translations than say correct meanings can be understood only by reading Quran in Arabic.

6. If he happens to be well versed in Arabic language than insist that those ayas don't mean what they appear to mean as they have allegorical meanings.

7. If he is adamant, than say you cannot understand those ayas and it's context without reading hadith and sira.

8.. If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet's rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran.

9. If he says Quran is a man made document and wants proof of it's divinity then refer to the sciences in Quran and the book written by Dr. Bucaile confirming the sciences in our holy book. You can also quote that Mahatama Gandhi read Quran daily and also spoke highly of it.

10. If he says that Bucaile was on Saudi payroll and that nor he nor Gandhi ever changed their religions and that Bucaile was challenged and proven wrong by many experts then challenge him to ask his experts to debate islamists like Zakir Naik..

11. If the pests still hangs around then change the topic and find faults in other religions and their books.

12. If he continues on then use personal attacks and insult him by calling him a jewish a- hole , a Chinese pig or a hindu dog .

13. If that does not frustrate him, then ask him how much he is being paid by jews to throw dirt on Al Islam.

14. If he still does not stop then run for his mother and sister and use very filthy language.

15. If he is very stubborn and wants to continue, then curse him like "Burn in hell, you will repent on last day, Allah will get you in your grave" etc

16. When all of the above has failed, threaten him with bodily harm and end the debate by drum beating and announcing that you won the debate hands down because Koran is the word of allah.

17. If possible anounce about this debate in an islamist website and that you had won it handily. Such announcements do wonders for the iman of muslim website readers and for dawah operations in prisons to convince low IQ prisoners of the truth of Al Islam.]

Re: # 39; Taureen sahib,

There are two types of indoctrinations; one by one's parents/society/schooling etc. The second is by oneself, especially after reaching a certain conclusion after being lost for a while. The rest is just constant re-affirmation of the same.

Islam, alongwith other religious traditions, is the same; the convert reaches a certain conclusion in his mind and then he makes a point of excluding all else, especially reason, and every counter-argument seems to 're-affirm' what one has already decided to believe. You'd hear the "faith begins where science ends" here a lot as well!

I'll try to give an example here; one doesn't have an explanation for a lot of things around; two ways the human mind can potentially go. One is to try to explain and look for a reason, often finding one when one looks hard enough. The alternative is 'fate', 'destiny' and 'gods' amongst other 'nice & easy' explanations; they vindicate one from the responsibilty of 'looking'; the famous saying "it is ALL there", etc. Its constant 're-affirmation of the already known'. Some of us would call it "the real jahilia"; others label it as "faith".

Koran (I spell it advisedly), is an old, archaic, plagiarised, and poorly written mythological tell-tale of jewish prophets of old, conveniently adopted to become 'part of the CHOSEN club' by the 'underdogs' of the time; obviously pissed off at the fact that 'their cousins' had this STATUS that appeared EXCLUSIVE; they themselves, on the other hand, had descended from 'Hagar - the slave girl'; that didn't seem fair. The story continues.....ad nauseum, if I might add. Then you'd hear the 'golden era' quoted where jews/muslims/christians lived so happy together, they never wanted to part! even if they tried.

As far as any 'distinction' from other 'faiths' is concerned, there is an important one. We have an "exclusive and chosen status", only in our twisted minds mind you, and the "ghalba" position is the goal. Throughout history we have had conflict after conflict with 'others' until we had that position of authority; it is a patriarchial tradition, where the 'convert' is constantly 'reassured' about his 'exclusive and equal status' that nobody else is prepared to offer him. Then there is a constant reminder of this newfound status if one chose to remain within the fold. There are many who don't but those stories are never told within the 'mainstream'.

Another thing is regarding 'the versions' one hears; apparently as it finally transpires, the Mohammed Asad translation of the Holy Book was the one mankind was waiting for; it seems to have explaianed issues that remained un-explained until then to the non-arabic speaker. I find the whole concept literally 'beyond belief'.

Yes you are right that in the horrible west is where one is 'allowed' as it were to read/analyse/challenge any of these concepts; in the fatherland, we would have long parted with our crania or worse made some other form of 'example' so others might learn from the expereince.

I first went to Pakistan when I was 13; I could speak the language but couldn't read or write Urdu. I learned very quickly though. The most striking thing I noticed, despite being at a 'good' school was the whole attitude towards education. I was used to 'questioning authority' which was taken to be 'rudeness'; I wanted to 'analyse' but was advised to 'rote learn' and pass exams etc rather than worry too much about what everything really 'meant'. Same with religion; one is 'brought up' in a 'certain way' if you will; the rest is one's own 'analysis' later in life which is again constantly to 're-affirm' rather than 'question'. Big difference, I reckon but there are those who'd vehemently disagree.

Has anyone ever wondered why more than 99% of religious adherents are "born within" any faith? the converts overall are a very small community, especially when 'the sword' is taken out of the equation. Why is it that all these 'born-agains' are almost always 'born within' the same traditions? But then again on eis NOT ALLOWED to wonder, is one? Predictable response would be to quote the 'verses from the holy book' that ask mankind to 'think'; but think about what exactly? Again mainly to start with a pre-determined result walking backwards to 're-affirm' what is ALREADY THERE!!

I quoted something a couple of months ago here and I'll see if I can find it again; it is the predictable response one would come across to what I wrote now and before.

Key is to keep looking though; I have said many times now that "the onus of proof is with the believer"; he should tell me there IS SOMETHING to talk about or otherwise shut up about it. No one can "disprove a negative"; If I told you there were fairies at the bottom of the garden, try as you may for eternity, you can't 'disprove' that; or can you?

“After having witnessed the cold-blooded murder of Iraqi women and children by trigger-happy Americans.”

Very touching Nadeem Akram Sahib. I wonder if you had mentioned how sickened did you feel to learn about the plight of Muslims of Darfur and their rape and murder at the hands of fellow Muslims, whether it had been published in the paper that it was. Thought provoking, however.

The price of having a faith in one of the major religions of the world (Islam being the most expensive one) is substantially greater than any perceived power of the faith. It is utter nonsense to talk about it in terms of reason.

#43 Posted by nadeemakr

"I am no scholar but when my five year old asks me why is someone killing a lot of people in the name of jihad, frankly my dearests, I have no answer!"

Your five years old asked this question? I think you are a negligent parent. How could a five year even know abt jihad and killing. Either you are telling him these things or you are letting him watch too much tv.

Shame on you for exposing your young child to the nonsense. You need to fix your household before you come and talk abt improving other people.

Re: # 43:
"
Hindus did it, Surbajeet Singh is one that comes to my mind.
"
From May 78 till Dec. 2007 on an average 40 Indians were killed by Baki IEDs, AK47, jihadis and infiltrators. Surabjeet must be innocent. But Indians should have made Baki pay in 84 or 87 itself. Gen. Sundarji should have done it so that innocents would not suffer. Geeta teaches this and India should make Geeta compulsory reading for every citizen so that this world can be paradise. Meek is as much responsible as the aggressor. No response is true violence because it violates the Natural Law.

Re: # 48: Have you seen Forrest Gump?

Millions of such prophets are alive so this world is truly paradise for many with right outlook. Read 40-50 condensed book of selected verses from Kuran first being Kalima for seven days with old Indian Muslims in US after 9/11. Frank those 40 pages might be good as manual but very mundane for some one who studied (might not have understood that well) Vedanta under the guidance of Swami Chinmayananda and different swamis of Ramkrishna Mission. More frankly and even according to these swamis all these scriptural reading is not necessary, if one tries to keep purity of childhood intact through out your adult life ..then you are that super consciousness. No need to visit temples and mosques. No need to read books in alien languages or join some desert land legions. If I do not find god within my body, parents, children, wife, neighborhood and country, then I will not find any where else. Dharmik understanding makes me see God/myself in the poorest of the poor, the maid, the driver and the janitor.

Abramhmic religion makes god alien, separate from us. It destroys our culture. Asks us to disown our ancestors, our language our saints and even our leaders. Not only that it asks us to disown our names.

Re: # 51
Mr. Eklavya,

"Some people argue that new converts to any religon are 'extremists' and hence beyond the pale."

I think 'those' who say this are themselves extremists! Read Dr. Muhammad Asad to see if his Qur'an translation or the famous autobiography (The road to Mecca) is extremist!

Regards.

tahir, zee,

If one wants to see the distinguishing features of Islam one will do well to focus on the views and opinions of new converts to Islam (not to sufism).

Some people argue that new converts to any religon are 'extremists' and hence beyond the pale. Well, may be, but new converts to Islam will differ from new converts to, say, Buddhism, and by looking at the differences between these two we can get a fairly intelligent idea of the differences between these and other religions.

Re: # 43
NADEEMMAKR becomes Nadeem 'makr'. Please change this; it'll make me very happy.

Re: # 42
Dear Kamath,

You've asked bravely! Yes I do have the courage; I neither hide behind the keyboard nor--like some interactors--behind their mothers' skirts.

You are wrong in assuming that I'm writing this either to please myself or a brain-washed readership. Have you interacted with sick animals? Well, I have, and some of them feel cured or are on their way to better health.

My discussions are not restricted to CHOWK. I speak my mind with Muslims 99% of the time. Many bark, a few bite, some purr in submission and understand.

Success is a relative thing.

Shaanti.

Re: # 41

You said "Abrahmic religions make us sinned ..destined to hell. It saps our self esteem"

I'm sorry you think this way. The Qur'an does NOT speak of Adam as a sinner who is on earth suffering a jail sentence! He was forgiven when he realised and repented. Now his descendants are supposed to make earth a peaceful and just place according to God's revealed Law. Satanic ideas ruin us and are a source of all of our sorrows. The evil force is the TEST that we must understand and pass!

So simple! Even Plato admitted that the purpose of the soul is to indulge in virtuous activity.

Shaanti.

Re: # 46

{One million blind mullahs are nothing compared with such men!}

So speaks almighty Baal.