Race to the Finish

Re: # 738
Masadi...

"which I posted for nkg a while back- HRW has published reports on the Indian "apartheid", do your google search"

Ans: Why don't moslems go to court and apply under RTI?
As per human achievment is concerned, moslems are poor achievers everywhere. Why are you segregating Indian moslems? Are muslims high achievers in UK, USA, Germany, France...? How should Indian muslims be different?
In Malayasia, majority moslems enjoys quota. Govt. policy encourages that. This is something different from most of the other countries.
SC/ST and dalits have suffered most in India. They should and enjoys some positive discrimination. Moslems simply do not have the ability of the brahmin/baniyas.
You 150 million Pakis can create enough terrorists/islamists to trouble the entire world, but can not produce number of science post graduates, Israel produces with their 15million people. Are moslems in Pakistan discriminated by Israel?
Indian Govt. does not allocate extra fund for moslems ( apart from Terrorist Training (Saudi Pilgrimage + Madrassa and urdoo education). Moslems should not be provided special power as religious minority, but they enjoy same like Christian, Jains, Sikhs...Indian Govt. pampers moslems toop much for the vote bank policies and keep goodwill with arab states...

#770 Posted by Zeena on May 10, 2008 12:08:28 am


wawawawa


zeena the retard princess: that's the only coherent part of your rant..

Re: # 770

Zeena:

"...Pakistan is a MISTAKE you're projecting yourself for seeing no boundaries with India...."

You might like to read again what Ana had written. She only wrote that Partition was a mistake.

What followed in terms of violence, might indicate that method of Parition could have avoided, if it was carried out on the British watch.

Re: #770

Zeena, janitors are great people! South Asians need to have more respect for those who do manual work!

Re: # 770

Little sis, the problem that many of these people (including those you characterize as "brown bhootnis") is they read too much into your individual words without making an attempt to see your intent in what you are trying to convey.

They go for the superficial - without trying to understand the deeper meaning.

Then they descend to gaali galauz! Such clueless individuals!

Pakistan3 (#773) is mistaken. Zeena, my little sis - is NEVER bitter...

She is merely outspoken - and she is no lurking coward!

Re: # 772

Zeena bahen,

what is the point of being bitter. It doesn't do anyone any good.

From what I have observed and read by ana here, I think you may be mistaken. We are all entitled to our individual views, but from what I can say, she appears to be very patriotic.

God knows best what's in everyone's heart and I think we should leave these judgements to Him alone.

Kindest regards

Re:#771 pakistan3
Sir
I don't act, I am always for real......and I am always bitter with racist people like ana who believes that Pakistan is a mistake.....tsk, tsk, tsk....

And also, I can be bitter with people like ana who in their bigotry love to twist other people's simple and pretty straightforward posts in a negative way just to paint'em with their own bigot brush...........

Re: # 770

Zeena,

I hope you don't mind me asking this. Is this part of some act or are you for real?

I am just curious.

Kindest regards.

Re:#700 ana
ana shameless aurat
You're desperate for my attention and that's the sole reason you keep on coming back to me after getting kicks on your racist arse....If you would've a lil shame left you would've jumped in a pond near your street or you would've eat dead squirrel or skunk....May God show you some ligt to make some sense.

Your self righteousness has no boundries...Well, obviously by saying that Pakistan is a MISTAKE you're projecting yourself for seeing no boundaries with India....

I didn't show any racism...If some black, white or brown or boohtni like you will attack Pakistan and will threaten Pakistan's existence like SOB(Obama) has had been doing by taking pot shot at Pakistan just to prove in front of Americans that he is not weak and that he is ready to bomb Pakistan as soon as he'll be in white house....

Obama is the most racist harrami I have ever seen, he feels no shame absolutely no shame , always in every interview and in every speech, he openly points out that he would like to bomb Pakistan just to get even scores with republicans...republicans got their scores by attacking Iraq, and now Obama is getting his pot shots over bombing Pakistan....wawawawa....

And that's the main reason, I called blacks and whites both as harramis.....Why you twisted my post and label me as a racist? But, again by portraying me as racist, you're projecting your own racism and bigotry which you've shown million times in the past and even now.

Pakistanis have always treated you(Christians) with more than equal respect and rights, but you always portray as if you're the most miserable people in Pakistan and Pakistanis call you,'chooras", I've never heard anyone calling you chooras....unless you're choora....there is no such thing as chooras, choora means janitors....In America they're called janitors and in Pakistan samething is choora...Then why you got offensive?

And then you openly stated that Pakistan is a mistake.....

If, Pakistan is a mistake then you shouldn't call yourself Pakistani......

This reflects your racist arse and bigotry against Pakistan...
Pakistanis don't have anything in common with Indians....they have absolutely separate identities and that's the main reason Pakistan got it's freedom.....If we don't recognize that separate identity which was the basis of Quaid's struggle for the freedom of a separate country, called our beloved country Pakistan then we got no right to call ourselves Pakistanis.....

Now, get lost with your verbal diarrhea....I won't respond to your senseless posts again....

Qualified or not, one thing is clear, I am heads and shoulders above(intellectually speaking) your kind of thugs and bigots, and on every occassion mop the floors of this Chowk with your dirty hair....fool

Qualified or not, one thing is clear, I am heads and shoulders (intellectually speaking) of your kind of thugs and bigots, and on every occassion mop the floors of this Chowk with your dirty hair....fool

#765 Posted by masadi on May 9, 2008 6:47:26 am

First I thought you were an affirmative action speaker..

now we find out you're not even qualified for THAT...

I'm glad to know even AA has some minimum standards..

would be a mighty qualified man

arjun writes "qualified people are usually paid airfare and lodging.."

So it is damned if I do and damned if I dont. If I get paid its "affirmative action" in action for an unqualified person. If I pay my own fare, it is because I am unqualified. Make up your goddamned mind fool. Btw, when in professional conferences like the one I attended, no one is paid airfare or train or bus fare and noone is paid a penny to present a paper, comprendey? Air fare and monetary compensation does not determine qualification, otherwise the a-hole in the presidency would be a might qualified man, but I think not....

#762 Posted by masadi on May 9, 2008 12:15:53 am


I paid my own, and delivered the lecture for free.


qualified people are usually paid airfare and lodging..

more proof that your skills are less important than that of a handyman..I can get a dozen commie social scientists but a handyman for a job that's less than 200$...no way jose..

Anil, your posts on chowk coincide 100% with you making a damn fool of yourself, it is discrimination based on something which is group specific not, "we discriminate against everything" and all groups are equally affected BS that you and GT want to tout. Now go F yourself fool, regarding the first rate school, it certainly was not HBS whose "graduates" can't write a decent sentence in English, even when they have an email to "prove" their affiliation with the school.....what a moron

arjun writes "yup..it's called affirmative action...It's when people who are not usually considered qualified are given a chance because of a particular trait.."

No fool, I paid my own, and delivered the lecture for free. No affirmative action involved, just your jealousy at not being able to speak as well or having equal knowledge which prompts you to say this BS. BTW my qualifications are from the US, accredited by the same agencies that accredit your I L schools, how they might be "suspect" is something that a bigoted code coolie or was it cab "engineer" can decipher.

#760 by majumdar

Hopefully not MAJ (pbuh)

Don't think Jinnah was capable of that. He was so full of himself that he wouldn't recognize greatness in others even if his life depended on it.

Harishbhai,

(did you notice I never called him that?)

Thanks.

( And do you know that Gandhi didn't give himself that name? )

Dont remember, Gokhale ??? Hopefully not MAJ (pbuh)

Regards

#758 by majumdar

There is one canard about Gandhi that you may want to dispel. That he was a Mahatma.

Majumdar bhai, did you notice I never called him that? And do you know that Gandhi didn't give himself that name?

Harishbhai,

(But if people try to spread canards about Gandhi, I won't hesitate to come in uninvited. )

There is one canard about Gandhi that you may want to dispel. That he was a Mahatma.

Regards

Re: # 738

Massaddi Mian:

"...Regarding discrimination, there was an extensive study done by an Indian on institutional discrimination regarding Indian Muslims..."

Finally, you are using discrimination. These reports do little to address the problem for those who suffer. There was one leader who had emerged in the first half of last century, his name was MAJ. He abandoned, and India abandoned him too. Muslim Indians suffered.

Education (not the kind you pretend to teach), female empowerment and community based economic initiative to get share of economic pie is the way. All this is way beyond you, your 7th century and Mills theory of nonsense.

Please do let me know your definition of "first rate schools".

#723 by zeemax

But let's not have a Jinnah/partition debate. It will invite BJ Kumar/Harish. Manto is MIA though!

I couldn't care less about Jinnah or the Partition. Both are long dead. But if people try to spread canards about Gandhi, I won't hesitate to come in uninvited.

Re: # 752

Arjun:

"...Massaddi Mian: I was there just last year again delivering a lecture at one of "the first rate" schools..."

What would it be, if Massaddi Mian calls "first rate" schools?

Re: # 753

I think it is no. 2.

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#741 Posted by masadi on May 8, 2008 9:59:18 am


I was there just last year again delivering a lecture at one of "the first rate" schools


yup..it's called affirmative action...It's when people who are not usually considered qualified are given a chance because of a particular trait..in your case, it's AA for pakis...pakis, you see, need a helping hand...there are hardly any paki profs in US schools...

Re: # 714

ana,

You misunderstood what I wrote. it was a bit of sarcasm gone wrong if you like and I am sorry for that.

To me christians, hindus and muslims are all part of the fabric of Pakistan and I consider them as equal citizens with equal rights.

I am also against any discrimination on those grounds including separate electoral systems and the like.

Kindest regards.

zeemax#735:

My case was an exception. Besides having a Canadian passport (which in itself doesn't mean much) I had an "approach" at the Canadian High Commision in Ottawa, that's why I got a one month travel-anywhere visa for Pakistan. Normally, people of Indian background get a visa for one or two cities only.

BTW, I think that ghin is a Punjabi/Urdu/Hindi word derived from the sanskrit "ghrina".

Zee, and you shouldn't know. that is the point. if you knew, then we would be on the same page. But as I am not a jihadi choot....we cannot understand eachother. No matter how hard we try.

# various Posted by CreateAlpha,

I really don't know the point of any of your posts in this discussion. I think UP is a great place for you to be.

Zee:

Yes ..... "ghin" ..... same meaning in Hindi.

"is what you're doing fool....don't think that people cannot look beyond your dimwitted facade. You're a third rate bigot like nkg, just more polite with your dirty nose always in Pakistani affairs that you seldom understand....go F yourself"

Bravo! ....

#736 Posted by GT,

GT, what ashtray would have said was 'ghin' not 'ghrin' in "feel ghrin". It must have been a typo.

'Ghin' means 'a nauseous aversion' in good Urdu.

g'night

Ghrin or no Ghrin- whatever the F that means, when you write "In India we discriminate on the basis of everything ...", while not even living in India, let alone the BS claim made therein to trivilize discrimination on the basis of caste and religion that is persistent in that society,...hiding behind BS and not any "logical discourse" is what you're doing fool....don't think that people cannot look beyond your dimwitted facade. You're a third rate bigot like nkg, just more polite with your dirty nose always in Pakistani affairs that you seldom understand....go F yourself

Example of "logical discourse" driven by "ghrin":

"A banal excuse for Indian apartheid against Muslims and lower caste Hindus and other minorities by an idiot who does not even live in India."

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GT writes "Hindus discriminate against Muslims (when they can) and vice versa because they "feel ghrin" for each other..."

The vice versa is absolute BS because both groups do not have equal power within the Indian social structure. No Muslim who "discriminates against Hindus" will ever reach a position of consequence in any facet of Indian society....Similar to his BS claim that discrimination against AAs in the US was an untestable hypothesis, which he would say is similar to black on white "discrimination"...

GT writes "In India we discriminate on the basis of everything .... it is so prevalent and accepted that we do not even notice. "

A banal excuse for Indian apartheid against Muslims and lower caste Hindus and other minorities by an idiot who does not even live in India.

GT writes to DM "What do you mean by "responsibility of India"? What is this India .... the govt., people? And why are Muslims "a responsibility of India" ... why not Sikhs or Arunachalis?

Muslims should expect nothing from the Indian polity (and frankly most of them do not). They should fight to get whatever they can (and they do) just like everybody else."

Don't act like a fool. DM's post made it very clear that the "responsibility" was viz a viz the (farcial) claims of MAJ and Co regarding the need for a seperate Muslim homeland. Compared to the other minorities you mention, the Muslims had the political clout with the colonials and feudals to break the nation and hence the "guarantee". Regarding discrimination, there was an extensive study done by an Indian on institutional discrimination regarding Indian Muslims (where no fight will prove useful until the resistant institution changes, dumbass), which I posted for nkg a while back- HRW has published reports on the Indian "apartheid", do your google search....and desist from posting Absolute Nonsense....

Zee, the situation of muslims is very bad in India and a lot of other places where they are not in the majority. You should petition the gov't of pakistan to open up its arms and take them in. Imagine a pakistan double its muslimness, then take in bradfordites, others from outer paris aggrondisments, from sri lanks, from thailand.....pakistan would be the new mecca of muslims. I think you should get started right away....there is no time to lose. Why...on my last trip to mumbai, my muslim driver abdul had a ganesh sticker on his dash under the dangling kaaba door ornament or something. Its getting crazy out their and you have a religious duty to save them. Chop chop buddy!

#731 Posted by dost_mittar:

D_M,

OK, I understand where you are comming from. While you maybe right about this "loyalty" business, I do not think Muslims are discriminated because people think they are not loyal. Hindus discriminate against Muslims (when they can) and vice versa because they "feel ghrin" for each other (sorry could not come up with a better word). You can see it for yourself when you read interacts here in chowk. Actuall a nick called ashtray (I think) used this exact word in UP!

#734 Posted by dost_mittar,

I don't think Police registration is required at all in Pakistan for Indians. Did you need one when you visited?

And yes, I think visa-less travel will ultimately come about. It is essential for both countries.

At a time the residents of NWFP did not even need a Passport for travel to Afghanistan. Just something called a 'red pass'. But that was before the Afghan war.

zeemax:

There are the laws and then, there are the practices. The two are not necessarily the same in India.

BTW, I am surprised that the rule of police registration after a certain period does not apply to Indian visitors in Pakistan.

You know my position - I am for a visa-less travel between India and Pakistan - just like Canada and US although things are tightening between these two countries as well.

#730 Posted by dost_mittar,

That's very strange because the penalty for overstaying visas for Pakistanis to India is extremely harsh. Immediate imprisonment when caught and torture. Indian visitors to Pakistan don't even require Police registration. That's a lousy law and should be removed.

#729 Posted by GT,

There was only one instance when I was just out of Uni and a Daudi Bohra (I think) lady refused to let me the upper portion of her house because I couldn't accept her condition I will NEVER wear any sort of shoes within the house! They have to be left outside the door!

GT:

I did not say that they are more a responsibility of India than any other group. But discrimination against Muslims, especially at a private level, is different from discrimination against any other group whose loyalty to the country is never in question.[but no other group -as a group - has this concept of ummah uber alles either!]

Zeemax#725;

At official level, there is no difference on the basis of religion; at a practical level, there are several Hindus who have come to India from Pakistan and have stayed on; so, too, have far more numerous bangladeshi muslims, but there is always talk of sending them back.

Zee:

"I haven't heard of any discrimination on account of religion or any ethnic origin within Pakistan."

Good for Pakistan and good for you.

In India we discriminate on the basis of everything .... it is so prevalent and accepted that we do not even notice.

#727 Posted by GT,

Yes it is different. I haven't heard of any discrimination on account of religion or any ethnic origin within Pakistan. I still have some Pakistani Hindu friends.

D_M

"I fully believe that IMs are a responsiblility of India..."

What do you mean by "responsibility of India"? What is this India .... the govt., people? And why are Muslims "a responsibility of India" ... why not Sikhs or Arunachalis?

Muslims should expect nothing from the Indian polity (and frankly most of them do not). They should fight to get whatever they can (and they do) just like everybody else.

Zeemax:

Yes they are massively discriminated in the Hindu rental market ... just like they discriminate against others in the Muslim rental market. And moreover everyone discriminates everyone in India ..... is it different in Pakistan?

I know of IMs being refused rental property in India. So there is something seriously wrong in Indian perception of IMs.

#724 Posted by dost_mittar,

Is immigration of Pakistani Hindus allowed in India?

zeemax:

No, I do not want to go 'there' (the Jinnah debate). My question was hypothetical. I fully believe that IMs are a responsiblility of India; it made a commitment to them way back at the time of the partition and it must live by that commitment. But I also believe that Jinnah's promise of a land-of-their-own applies also to IMs today.

Incidentally, why India did not make any such promise to the Hindus of Pakistan and Bangladesh, to this date, any Hindu who comes to India from Pakistan or Bangladesh and does not want to go back is not harassed, unlike any Muslim visitor from those countries. In other words, India has quietly accepted the TNT.

#719 Posted by dost_mittar,

There had to be a deadline (somewhere in the 50's before which many UP Muhajirs arrived) because of the evacuee properties claims issue. Israel doesn't have that. Besides, Israel is not a good comparison since it desperately needs population to outnumber the Palestinians.

However, as I have always maintained exchange of populations wasn't planned nor intended. Jinnah himself retained the Bombay property and wanted to live there simultaneously as in Karachi.

But let's not have a Jinnah/partition debate. It will invite BJ Kumar/Harish. Manto is MIA though!

Re: # 719
DM...
I will like to advocate for masadi's push and pull theory. If Pakistan is not PULLing with proper force, Indians need PUSH little harder. We have enough madressah educated retards. Just need to relocate them in proper environment like Red Mosque etc. to complete their islamic education.

This question of identity is a useless debate. We all have multiple identities, don't we? I have a Canadian identity, an Indian identity, a Punjabi identity, a Hindu/Sikh identity and sometimes even a cultural Muslim identity (as I identify myself with Urdu culture). And being born in a pind near Choa Saidan Shah where my ancestors were born since before the time when Alexander's soldiers crossed Jhelum, I am irretrievably tied to a Potohari identity as well. So, let's not get hung-up on a single identity.

Re: # 713
Ana...

Indians does not bother about Pakistan, unless it creates trouble for India...
How funny it is to see people of a 4000 year old civilisation fighting over two equally stupid,mediaval, middle eastern barbarism...

zeemax:

"Pakistan gave a choice. Those who didn't take it, are Indians, not Pakistanis. Pakistan even allowed migration till 50's."

I am not sure about this part. I compare Pakistan to Israel, which too was made for the Jews and has remained open for Jews until today. Similarly, Pakistan was made for India's Muslims, no qualification was made that it was made only for Muslims who happened to be living at that particular time. An Indian Muslim could argue that he or she should not be punished for the "foolish" decision of his grandparents.

ana,

One of my office colleagues (an economic research expert) is a Christian guy and refused to move to Canada when his family immigrated. Says he'll miss the ecstasy parties on the Karachi Beach too much!

#714 Posted by ana,

Haan yaar wohi hay. Gujrat waley Chaudhrion ki kothi key samney!

#714 Posted by ana,

Haan yaar wohi hay. Gujrat waley Chaudhrion ki kothi key saney!

#711 Posted by tahir,

err ... Tahir saheb, ana is no faithless person .... looks like some misunderstanding here :)

tahir:

nice of you to just point out what reflects poorly on me. :) but thank you. I do understand why you chose to ignore everything your fellow Muslima said.

zeemax:

I will think about it, okay? And thanks for the info on Esena, but ye vohi Esena hai na, F.C college ke qareeb?

pakistan3:

oh but we "chooRas" do live with the rest of you. In Lahore. In Karachi. In Pindi. What more do you want? Let us have the few (or the many)villages we have to ourselves. We are free to do that remember? As long as it does not interfere with the affairs of the state!

Historically, "Christian" villages were set up by zealous missionaries, both American and British. Like the Salvation Army, for example in my mother's village. It was not as if we Christians all decided we wanted to live apart, and formed communities of our own. . . .But since you deem to think of us as "chooRas" why would you want us to live with the rest of you?!!!

As for the jokes about Christians not being extinct, they are in very poor taste, or missing a few. . .

And now I'd really really like to move away from this board. . . so I guess some of us will continue this conversation elsewhere. Or not.

#710 Posted by bjkumar,

Are you aware 95% of the nursing and paramedic profession is staffed by Christians? No you wouldn't. Because bhartis are liars when it comes to Pakistani minorities (as most other things as well).

Anil writes "Discriminators make problems and are problems. For all its worth, Massaddi Mian is not part of discriminated. He, in fact, would be part of discriminators. People like him will not hesitate in discriminating against those who disagree with them. Massaddi Mian demonstrates this quite well here at Chowk."

Denying that race discrimination/racism exists in the US, claiming that his personal experience which he generalizes as "life" in the US has taught him so and then claiming without an iota of evidence that I (who btw does not have any power of authority on chowk) discriminate is something that is the hallmark of dimwit bigots like Anil, his new slogan to mask racism is : "It's discrimination not racism"- thereby he conveniently masks the victims and claims like the white bigots that they are being discriminated against, that there is a "war on Christmas" in America and other such nonsense. Regarding discrimination on Chowk, I am indeed a victim of it as censorship of my multiple articles has shown, and how have I discriminated against people with different ideas? By arguing against them? By mopping the chowk with their dimwit rebuttals? By not agreeing with them because they make no sense? Of such discrimination I am guilty, having a discriminating mind, that discriminates based on truth and justice and fact is what is need not race and other BS discrimination of which the white man, his peons and the Hindu bigots are prime examples...

Re: # 678
"if you want me to leave you the f... alone you pathetic excuse....and Allah hafiz!"

To use a swear-word and Allah's name like this reflects poorly on you! Angry you may be, but keep your head on the shoulder please!

Re: # 706

[There are villages upon villages of Christians in Punjab.]

No kidding! You guys actually missed a few?!

#704 Posted by ana,

how ... get lumped into one non-static mass ... that is what I mean by monolith.

Yes, but an 'identity' HAS to be a non-static mass by its very definition. You can't compare it with generalizations like Feminists etc. But I know you don't want to debate this so ... maybe think about it???

Re: # 706

Zeemax,

(There are villages upon villages of Christians in Punjab.)

Why do they live in separate villages when they could live like "chooRhas" with the rest of us?

#704 Posted by ana,

No no 'Haseena' Foundation is still at the same spot next to the roundabout. My father's house was in the adjacent lane. So I know the name fits perfectly!

#705 Posted by bjkumar,

Not to mention extinct!

There are villages upon villages of Christians in Punjab.

Re: # 702

[Pakistani Christians are some of the MOST 'Pakistani' of them ]

Not to mention extinct!

acha zeemax, you know how feminists get lumped into one non-static mass, or Muslims, or Pakistanis. . . that is what I mean by monolith.

the next lane? acha, is it true that "haseena" isn't there anymore. someone told me uss ka naam o nishaan hi baqi na raha.

ana,

LoL 'Haseena Foundation' ... my family lived in the next lane (thumbs up)!

#697 Posted by anil,

Actually I don't know what ana means by no monolithic identity. Perhaps she would care to elaborate. Pakistani Christians are some of the MOST 'Pakistani' of them all as far as 'Pakistanyat' is concerned. There have been many heroes amongst them and still are. Google Benjamin Sisters or SB John for example in matters cultural.

Re: # 700; ana bibi
"i apologize if being grammatically incorrect hinders your comprehension, but as I said before, I no longer wish to continue interacting on this thread."

no need to apologise behn ji

Khuda Hafiz

cheema,

the connection you keep insisting on is not there. my identity is connected to the first part of the sentence, my shelf life here on Chowk, is another part. My shelf life here at Chowk is more connected to not participating in conversations such as the one I did today.

i apologize if being grammatically incorrect hinders your comprehension, but as I said before, I no longer wish to continue interacting on this thread.

Re: # 696; ana bibi

you said a lot of thing including attempting to answer my post; you still, however, haven't answered why 'being wedded to your Pakistani identity' should prolong your 'shelf-life' here at Chowk?

Feel free to say if you can't be specific about your answer.

Sorry to be persistent...

Khuda Hafiz

Anil writes " request to both Zeena and Ana to come back and debate their points. Both are important for Pakistani identity, and I for one would like to learn from both viewpoints"

Anil, the certified ignoramus (and a-hole I must add), who cannot write a decent sentence in English, is always forthcoming with insults and bigotry against Islam and has ruined the entire reputation of Harvard Business School by claiming to be from there (with an email to match), and who thinks at best at the junior high school level wants to get the benefit of "both viewpoints"- give me a break you miserable f'ck

Re: # 696
Ana:

Thanks for sharing your views with me here.

We all display our identity each time we interact or even get out of our cocoon.

“if there is such a thing as an Islamicized Christian, I was that being...”

What is an “Islamicized Christian”?

“Being that I was influenced by all these different faiths, I never considered anyone to be "the enemy".... ...And my upbringing is what shaped me as I am. “

Faiths is interesting way to define, I prefer to call these as belief systems. Faiths / belief systems bring out the differences, moment they are out in the open society. You obviously grew up in multi-religious set up. Contrast is fascinating, Zeena proudly demonstrates it.

“There is our collective identity, and then there is the individual one....”

This is so true. “... And there were times when being part of the collective was challenging. ...” Will you care to share these challenges?

Clifton correctly identified the two view points. I am very certain such two distinct viewpoints exist in India and even here in the U.S. How will you explain, FLDS women also are among us and happily living ever after – an extreme for sure.

anil,

i don't do debates. i also do not like talking to people the way i did with zeena today. i questioned her generalizations, and she began the usual abuse.

I have written many times about what being a Pakistani is to me, and what being a Pakistani woman is, and all the other aspects of my identity, and I am not going to put them on display again. As far as I know, most of my family has not moved from what is now Pakistan in centuries, we are not Muslims, although Muslims have come into our family. We were not always Christian either. I have grown up amongst Muslims, if there is such a thing as an Islamicized Christian, I was that being.

Being that I was influenced by all these different faiths, I never considered anyone to be "the enemy". And one does not have to be influenced by different faiths to be that way. I grew up pampered by Muslim uncles and aunties who felt the same way. And my upbringing is what shaped me as I am. I can only speak for myself. I can't get into a debate about Pakistani identity as a whole. There is our collective identity, and then there is the individual one. And there were times when being part of the collective was challenging.

When Indians ask me if I am Indian or Pakistani and I tell them I am Pakistani, and some of them say, oh same difference, I used to laugh at this. It is not the same. That is what I have been trying to say all along. We have certain things "in common", so we are not "completely different" but we are not the same. Now if certain proud Pakistanis are going to curse at me for this, I really don't give a fcuk. And I am not interested in getting into a debate with someone when there is no chance of any real understanding developing.

Perhaps anil sahib, rather than trying to get viewpoints of people on Chowk who by being virtual and anonymous might be suspect, you should make that trek to the "enemy country" and get the real scoop. If you are indeed interested in a real education. Chowk is only the superficial part of it. . .

I am not returning to this thread.

Beti:

Oops, I never thought it would be so difficult. Anyway, you really did bring two points of view out of the clutter. It just might be worth it, Clifton.

anil chacha are you saying if i build the acropolis they will come :)

Re: # 690

Clifton beti:

You indeed make the most important point.

I truly was looking for this debate between to point of views on Pakistan identity. I hope you can bring Zeena and Ana out to debate it as two debators.

May be you write a Front Page essay, and let them and others come and debate.

clifton jee aapki guftugoo mein say aqraba parwari kii boo aarahi hay

clifton jee aapki guftugoo mein say aqraba parwari kii boo aarahi hay

I think both ana and zeena did a great job of portraying "our POV" pakistaniat insaniat and zananiat.

Mirch masala aside there were two genuine points of view , as in Zeenas traditional approach and Ana's saying pakis are not monolithic and lahore belongs to her as much as she belongs to it. Good stuff all round.

Re: # 687

BJ:

"... are you running low on your stock of Punjabi gaalis?!..."

Zeena, I thought is not Punjabi. Isn't her language different from Indian languages?

Please spare me, I have never called anyone racist. I have only raised objection to having an identity based on genetic traits.

its a sad sad day when zeena is tasked with presenting our POV....saray special bachay hamaray hi hissay mein kyoon aatay hein..:(

Re: # 681

[I for one would like to learn from both viewpoints.]

Why, are you running low on your stock of Punjabi gaalis?!

BTW, it is rather unfair to call little sis a racist when clearly she does not spare black OR white!

What to say of the blue-colored ones with puny noses!

hasb-e-maamool = as usual, the usual.

Re: # 683

Ana:

"...why does this debate interest YOU so much?..."

Probably, because of curiosity and being able to spend time on Chowk.

Re: # 683

Ana:

"...Pakistan is not a monolith..."

I do not think any identity is a monolith.

Pakistan (not Pakistani) Identity cannot be complete with you, as as it cannot be complete by excluding Zeena (I am not implying that you are excluding her or anyone). I am not sayin this because you are Christian, but because you have a perspective and feel equally strongly about being from Pakistan.

Zeena says that she believes in Jinnah's vision, and his often quoted speech, then she may need to rethink her definition of Pakistan identity.

Making genetic traits as part of identity does not sound right to me.

What is "hasb-e-maamool"

anil, i hate to disappoint you, but i do not wear kid gloves anymore. plus, why does this debate interest YOU so much? there is no debate. i hurt people's sensibilities. zeemax and i talked it over. the leviathan zeena turns the tables around and calls ME a racist. And there is no debate possible when one refuses to see reason. there is just the hasb-e-maamool at chowk.

i am afraid you will have to get your jollies elsewhere. identity in Pakistan is not a monolith, and that is your lesson for this evening.

good night.

wawawawaw

Is it possible to get back onto the debate, or its curtains down?

I request to both Zeena and Ana to come back and debate their points. Both are important for Pakistani identity, and I for one would like to learn from both viewpoints.

and zeena, a few more lights up your proverbial ass before i go.

1) i was born in Pakistan, behooda aurat, I lived in Lahore. I am a Pakistani. I am a Pakistani who identifies as a Pakistani, but has friends from various parts of the world, including India and Africa, and I am so sorry if that hurts your demented sensibilities. NOT.

2)Before you call me demented, look at your own posts, look at the style in which you write. And you call yourself an educated doctor. Obviously you are a doctor who cannot write without sounding hysterical, a word I hate to use for women, but since I think you're a fraud to boot, all bets are off.

3) I can slap just as hard as you can. Unfortunately I have practice. So please do not go wawawawawaing about how many slaps you've given me. Bas samnay aao jaan-e-maan, tainu maiN vhi dikhavaN gi.

And finally, I have no desire to interact with your puny ass self, who thinks she is so superior to everyone else, especially black people. But I'm telling you, unlike your dear friend majumdar, the root cause of your anger and hysteria is of no interest to me. If you think you are free to say whatever you want, and call the rest of us names, then so are we kuttiya. So don't get your chaddies all in a knot, baat aayi samajh maiN?

I am through talking to your ass today. Kal phir aa jana.

"#678 Ana: zeena, teri aisi ki taisi,..."

"#676 Zeena: looks like your itchy racist arse is still itching to fight.."

How can two of you helping your points. Both of you valid points.

Why can we not hear this debate instead.

zeena, teri aisi ki taisi, why don't you come on unplugged and jharofy me there, are you afraid everyone else is going to light into you too.

if you want me to leave you the fcuk alone you pathetic excuse for an open-minded ----, then you're the one who has to stop being delusional. Now go take your dawaiyaN and Allah hafiz!

#Little sis

You have the stamina of a tiger, and the attack style of a lioness!

Those who ridicule you do so at their own great peril!

And you sure know how to defend yourself. And you sure know how to defend that Pakistan - which sure needs a LOT of it so often!

I think miaN Mushy made a grave mistake by sending in those Jihadis into Kargil! If only he had any foresight, he would have sent you and not just the Indian security forces - perhaps even the inhabitants of the valley would have run away!

What to say of J&K, you could have easily grabbed Rajasthan and Punjab on the side!

Nobody dares to face my little sis - without running away!

To borrow your own inimitable words...

WAWAWAWAWAWAWWW!!!

[[[Post by ana on May 7, 2008 5:28:53 pm
i am done with zeena's racist ass for now -- until the next time.]]]

ana byatch
You see this is what I am pointing out...You're just pathetic.....

Well, I have had been DONE with your racist arse long time ago, but, it looks like your itchy racist arse is still itching to fight with me for NO reason at all. How many times do I got to remind you of my prior slaps on your both cheeks?...tsk, tsk, tsk....your cheeks don't got hurt and you itch for more slaps, you know why ? because you've now an addiction to all these slaps....

Listen, have mercy on your pathetic self and seek some psych treatment, I feel sorry for your racist arse and cheeks got beaten up million times, but still come back with no shame , no shame at all.

[[[#636 Posted by ana on May 6, 2008 9:24:12 pm
Oh good grief, who the hell said that we should share one identity? Having things in common does not mean sharing one identity.

Can some of you simple learned minds understand that?]]]

ana sahiba
First of all I just wished to remind you which I have done million times in the past Not to interact with me in any sense or to my posts. My reason for not interacting with you are very clear. You always seem to be very senseless, irrational and confused delusional woman who has proved herself demented over and over again....

Anyway, I am NOT in any mood of interacting with you or about you, for me thats a waste of my precious time to waste on an illogical woman like you.
But, since you are harrassing me and attacking me along with your Indian friends persistently, I don't wish to stay quiet , as low class people like you feel threatened and then try to project as if my silence is my weakness....

First of all why are you harrassing me by attacking me and calling me racist? Where did I sound racist?

If, you're Christian and some Hindu threatens that he will bomb your home, what'll be your reaction? You'll smile and say thank you....b/c you'll react to that person, you'll be racist....wawawaw, what alogic.....only a moronish mind can have a twisted mindset like this....

Then I do not have anything in common with Indians....starting from my language, my features, my likes , my dislikes, my culture, my religion, my cast, my genes, my traditional values and my nationality are no way similar to Indians.....these are the things that needs to be shared when we talk about commonalities.....
If you feel you're Indian , then be it I will never question your identification issues, you are adult and have every right to be identified with Indians if you feel that you're NOT proud to be PAKISTANI and feel insecured by admitting that you're Pakistani and that separation of Pakistan from Hindustan was a mistake.....

If, you believe that it was mistake, then you already have closed this case of your identity. You are proud to be IDENTIFIED as an Indian, be it and congratulation for finally finding your lost identity.....LOL..

And I feel proud of Quaid-E-Azam who got us freedom and a great country, Pakistan....

If you believe that Pakistan is a mistake, then you should never go to Pakistan and call yourself Indian.....But, never ever tell all other patriotic Pakistanis that Pakistan is a mistake...

You're just a pathetic, jealous, and confused demented woman with NO sense at all and your mind is full of utter nonsense...

Now, get lost and never interact with me or about me and about Pakistan.....

[[[#636 Posted by ana on May 6, 2008 9:24:12 pm
Oh good grief, who the hell said that we should share one identity? Having things in common does not mean sharing one identity.

Can some of you simple learned minds understand that?]]]

ana sahiba
First of all I just wished to remind you which I have done million times in the past Not to interact with me in any sense or to my posts. My reason for not interacting with you are very clear. You always seem to be very senseless, irrational and confused delusional woman who has proved herself demented over and over again....

Anyway, I am NOT in any mood of interacting with you or about you, for me thats a waste of my precious time to waste on an illogical woman like you.
But, since you are harrassing me and attacking me along with your Indian friends persistently, I don't wish to stay quiet , as low class people like you feel threatened and then try to project as if my silence is my weakness....

First of all why are you harrassing me by attacking me and calling me racist? Where did I sound racist?

If, you're Christian and some Hindu threatens that he will bomb your home, what'll be your reaction? You'll smile and say thank you....b/c you'll react to that person, you'll be racist....wawawaw, what alogic.....only a moronish mind can have a twisted mindset like this....

Then I do not have anything in common with Indians....starting from my language, my features, my likes , my dislikes, my culture, my religion, my cast, my genes, my traditional values and my nationality are no way similar to Indians.....these are the things that needs to be shared when we talk about commonalities.....
If you feel you're Indian , then be it I will never question your identification issues, you are adult and have every right to be identified with Indians if you feel that you're NOT proud to be PAKISTANI and feel insecured by admitting that you're Pakistani and that separation of Pakistan from Hindustan was a mistake.....

If, you believe that it was mistake, then you already have closed this case of your identity. You are proud to be IDENTIFIED as an Indian, be it and congratulation for finally finding your lost identity.....LOL..

And I feel proud of Quaid-E-Azam who got us freedom and a great country, Pakistan....

If you believe that Pakistan is a mistake, then you should never go to Pakistan and call yourself Indian.....But, never ever tell all other patriotic Pakistanis that Pakistan is a mistake...

You're just a pathetic, jealous, and confused demented woman with NO sense at all and your mind is full of utter nonsense...

Now, get lost and never interact with me or about me and about Pakistan.....

[[[#636 Posted by ana on May 6, 2008 9:24:12 pm
Oh good grief, who the hell said that we should share one identity? Having things in common does not mean sharing one identity.

Can some of you simple learned minds understand that?]]]

ana sahiba
First of all I just wished to remind you which I have done million times in the past Not to interact with me in any sense or to my posts. My reason for not interacting with you are very clear. You always seem to be very senseless, irrational and confused delusional woman who has proved herself demented over and over again....

Anyway, I am NOT in any mood of interacting with you or about you, for me thats a waste of my precious time to waste on an illogical woman like you.
But, since you are harrassing me and attacking me along with your Indian friends persistently, I don't wish to stay quiet , as low class people like you feel threatened and then try to project as if my silence is my weakness....

First of all why are you harrassing me by attacking me and calling me racist? Where did I sound racist?

If, you're Christian and some Hindu threatens that he will bomb your home, what'll be your reaction? You'll smile and say thank you....b/c you'll react to that person, you'll be racist....wawawaw, what alogic.....only a moronish mind can have a twisted mindset like this....

Then I do not have anything in common with Indians....starting from my language, my features, my likes , my dislikes, my culture, my religion, my cast, my genes, my traditional values and my nationality are no way similar to Indians.....these are the things that needs to be shared when we talk about commonalities.....
If you feel you're Indian , then be it I will never question your identification issues, you are adult and have every right to be identified with Indians if you feel that you're NOT proud to be PAKISTANI and feel insecured by admitting that you're Pakistani and that separation of Pakistan from Hindustan was a mistake.....

If, you believe that it was mistake, then you already have closed this case of your identity. You are proud to be IDENTIFIED as an Indian, be it and congratulation for finally finding your lost identity.....LOL..

And I feel proud of Quaid-E-Azam who got us freedom and a great country, Pakistan....

If you believe that Pakistan is a mistake, then you should never go to Pakistan and call yourself Indian.....But, never ever tell all other patriotic Pakistanis that Pakistan is a mistake...

You're just a pathetic, jealous, and confused demented woman with NO sense at all and your mind is full of utter nonsense...

Now, get lost and never interact with me or about me and about Pakistan.....

Re: # 671

Zeemax Sahib:

"because that would be enna vaDDa jhut jeda koi hisaab naeeN. "


Yeh tou aap sazaa de rahein hain, Zeemax sahib.

#669 Posted by ana,

ana, thanks. Just needed reaffirmation, that's all.

You're a Pakistani, and everyone knows that. If you ever gave the slightest indication you agreed with these Indians, even Majumdar who's amongst the mildest, it would be "because that would be enna vaDDa jhut jeda koi hisaab naeeN. "

Take care ana.

#668 Posted by dost_mittar,

But I do not agree with your statement. Pakistan was created to protect the interests of India's Muslim minority, which it hasn't, as the Sachar report correctly points out.

Pakistan gave a choice. Those who didn't take it, are Indians, not Pakistanis. Pakistan even allowed migration till 50's. Pakistan has no issue with those who didn't take it.

Indian Muslims are Indian responsibility (except Kashmiris. They weren't given a choice).

What Pakistan has achieved, instead, is in protecting the Muslims of the majority provinces (esp. Bangladesh) from domination by the Hindu minority.

Of-course I agree with that. Where did I say I didn't? Perhaps you never asked me!

zeemax:

first of all, even if I thought once upon a time that Partition was a mistake that doesn't mean that I have any disregard for my country or more love for Indians than Pakistanis. I don't feel I have to defend myself again and again on this score. So do not be so quick to judge, please.

Secondly what I said was in response to majumdar's comment about Beejay, and partition being a mistake and delegitmizizing Pakistan and whatever else he said, (am in a time crunch, so cannot go back to look). My response was that I may think Partition was a mistake, but I do not see it in the same light. I was not agreeing with any of the "horrible hindoos" here. I was not delegitimizing, or de-anything Pakistan. Now if you do not accept my explanation, ye alag baat hai. But do not tell me that I do not love my country and where I come from, because that would be enna vaDDa jhut jeda koi hisaab naeeN.

and now I am late to work.

zeemax:

"firstly she shouldn't and secondly she should read the Sachar Report"

I do agree that Pakistan has been hugely beneficial to the Muslims of Pakistan (largely by removing competetion form Hindu and Sikh Punjabis).

But I do not agree with your statement. Pakistan was created to protect the interests of India's Muslim minority, which it hasn't, as the Sachar report correctly points out. What Pakistan has achieved, instead, is in protecting the Muslims of the majority provinces (esp. Bangladesh) from domination by the Hindu minority.

g'night, let me hear Zardari make a damn fool of himself by trying to appear smarter than he actually is....reminds me of that other damn fool, Musharraf...