PPP Isn’t Convinced!

one can not put the real problems of the people and reinstating the judges in the same basket. The real problem are gonna take much longer provided a sincere and systematic approach towards solving them is taken, whereas reinstaing judges is a matter of a resolution followed by the executive order - all of which can take less than a day.

Therefore don't try to make excuses in the name of peoples' real problems for dragging feet on the judges issue.

#16 Posted by bulleya on May 4, 2008 12:21:31 pm


those of us sitting in pakistan


geographical proximity doesn't automatically translate into brilliant insights...

I can tell you the situation in iraq is bad even though I've never in Iraq proper.

When you told us to wear t-shirts with paki flags, you were living in the US...

Hamid Mian,

I request your opinion on "The Second World" a book written by Parag Khanna. Where should Pakistan be? Under the Chinese influence? or under the US influence? Should Gwadar be under the influence of a US empire or under the Chinese empire? Could you help the "unwashed masses" understand this new developing world order?

Re: # 19

bubba mian,

.... as a rule i don't need books written by horrible hindoos other tha dinesh d'souza and that fool from trinidad and jhumpa lahri .... why? ... because i think that indians, like pakis, are an inferior breed and really don't have much to say ....... they have contributed 'zero' to civilization other than charlatans like deepak chopra and yogananda ........

..... having said that, i think pakistan should lead the muslim empire from the red fort in delhi ...... of course, first we have to solve the electricity and atta crisis and provide deodrant to the unwashed masses ......

Re: # 4
Jayp
It all depends on what angle you are viewing it from, the masses are dying to learn when they will have roti, kapra aur makan that was promised them in the 70's by the ancestor of those in current regime.
I am sure you can tell that when one is hungry they dont care who serves them food as long as it is served.
All these rallies are organized by the deceptive clown politicians as this is the only method for them to keep the public busy and away from sensing the thirst that needs to be quenched while the public is so naive that without understanding much they jump out to support anything that is being publicized to agitate and protest against the enemies of Islam.
You are right about the rallies on stupid issued but that can camaflouge the hungry stomachs only for a short while as the outrage is getting ready to outpour and then it could bring the need for another democratic movement.
Yes the priority is religion and it will remain religion but this is not what the religion preaches.
Sharia will not hurt anyone if it is adopted with sincerity and in its true spirits although it doesnt look possible in the foreseeable future.
Regards

Re: # 15

If you did not get it the first time, reference was to the common people, not crack whores like yourself.

#16 by bulleya

....sitting in an army house doesn't immune one from impeachment.....kindly point out anything in the constitution which mentions the army house......

What a chutiya..this guy isn't fit to even run a pan shop in Gerard Street. Do you think Musharraf diligenty pored over the Constitution to see under which law a coup is allowed before he unseated NS?

#14 Posted by sachasaint

We just want democracy. cuz supposedly, having general elections where people with the most muscle and money can gain access to power.

Then how come the Chairman of the ruling party lost his own seat in his home town?

#23 Posted by harish_hyd,

Musharraf still has the power to appoint Army Chiefs, which is why he's sitting in the Army House (pending refurbishment of the President house as claimed). That doesn't mean he can command the army to do his bidding anymore as he used to when he was himself Army Chief i.e. as in 1999 in your example.

Zee sahib,

Re: 25

So what is the latest update? Has the PPP agreed to the deal wherein 58-2 b goes and the judges get reinstated but in return Mushy gets assured 5 years term as Prez and none of his actions can be questioned?

Regards

#25 by zeemax

That doesn't mean he can command the army to do his bidding anymore as he used to when he was himself Army Chief i.e. as in 1999 in your example.

Do you mean constitutionally? If yes, Mushy has as much regard for the constitution as a puritan has for a whore. If otherwise, after filling in all senior positions in the army with his loyalists, do you think there are senior officers who would rise in revolt against him?

That said, both Zia and Mushy rose against the very men who handpicked them, so there's no reason why the same cannot happen to Mushy.

...what exactly is musharraf's trump card, at the moment.....

.....it is not the army....the army is not going to listen to him......it knows where its bread is buttered, and which way the public opinion is flowing......at most, it will not allow him to be jailed.......this is a general tradition, amongst generals.......they never jail each other.......nor do they allow any of their colleagues to be jailed.........

the reason being that each general knows this could become a trend......hence they don't want it started......to this day, only one air force general was jailed, after retirement......

.....it cannot be public opinion.........

..and what does ppp gain from him......they hate him......gilani and zardari suffered the most during his rule (along with javed hashmi, naveed qamar etc.).......

.....so why is the ppp leaning to save him....at the cost of losing popularity.......

one would have to say it is the influence of hamidm mian's best bud - W......i cannot think of anyone else.......i think the usa wants a peaceful exit for him.......so that he can retire to boston.......

the usa doesn't need him anymore either........they have already nominated kayani to the worlds' 100 most influential list......i am not sure why, but they have......a picture in time will keep him happy for the next 20 years.....

there fear of mullahs with nukes is gone.......they must have realized that elections in pakistan, actually do not result in mullahs in power.......

so what is their motivation.....well i think it is to ensure every other dictator they are supporting (and there is a long list) that a safe exit is gauranteed, once the tables turn.......(and because bush sticks with personal friends........he kept rummy going, even when hamid mian was fed up of rummy)........

so if musharraf is nailed.......what will the usa say to all the other dictators it supports......

hence the plan, i believe is to allow a safe exit to musharraf, with dignity.......with the aid of the usa......they must have offered zardari a lot of carrot and/or stick to gaurantee that.......

and nawaz sharif is reaping the benefits.......

ppp is screwing this up......they spend time in jail, while nawaz runs off to the palaces of riyadh.......but it is nawaz who reaps the benefits........

and musharraf goes laughing all the way to boston......much like shaukut is laughing all the way to new york......he turned out to be the smartest......got out at the right time.......he can gloat........

#26 Posted by majumdar,

It appears Musharraf has agreed to let powers under 58-2(b) go, as well as restoration of Judiciary as long as the existing ones are retained, but is still insisting on the power to appoint army chiefs. There's a deadlock there but I think both PPP and PML (N) have agreed to take one thing at a time and get the judiciary restored, and worry about the rest later.

#27 Posted by harish_hyd,

What I meant was that the army works under a very tight hierarchical chain of command. The Presdient is not a part of that chain of command.

He can appoint the army chief but can not give him orders.

But I knew you were going to come out with an argument like you just did :)

#30 by zeemax

But I knew you were going to come out with an argument like you just did :)

Which one? The one about Mushy's regard for the constitution or the one about Zia and Mushy going against their masters?

Great expectations were placed in Muslim troops of British Indian Army before 1914.German general Von Bernhardi writing in his book "Germany in the future war" hypothesised that Muslim troops of Indian Army would not fight against the Turks.The Muslim troops mostly Punjabi were loyal to British as a rock against the turks.Only the Tribal Pashtuns the Wazirs , Mahsuds and Afridis and the Ranghars of 129th Light Infantry rebelled.Even the Sikhs showed disaffection.As a result Afridi Mahsud Wazir Ranghar and Sikh recruitment was reduced after WW One and the Punjabi Muslims became the majority in fighting arms.Not for fighting well but for proven loyalty against Muslims.Such was the difference that when two Pathan squadrons of 15 Lancers refused to fight against Turks in Iraq it had to be replaced by the Hindu Jat squadrons while the Punjabi Muslim squadron of 15 Lancers stayed loyal.The same was proven again at Jallianwalla Bagh.The only instance of Indian troops refusing to fire against civilians was done by Garhwali Hindus of Garhwal Regiment at Peshawar IN 1930.This is the same pakistani army with the mercenary tradition.little good should be expected from it.mercenaries they were and mercenaries they will remain.

Pakistan is not the land of heroism.It is the land of opportunism and shameless pragmatism.Thats why Bakht Khan was killed by Muslim soldiers from the FF regiment according to its regimental history.Thats why Prince Feroz Shah in 1859 had to seek sanctuary in Bajaur.

Yesterday army chief General Kiani should have briefed secretary defence only . What business does he have of briefing the politicians directly.The question is that minister of Defence or secretary defence instead of controlling the army are controlled by the army.Most of the politicians have served in some military government in Pakistan.Independent spirit was stifled as a policy by all four military governments of Pakistan.Pakistani defence forces are heavily dependent on US/European suppliers for their hardware.The army is a standing regular army instead of an army based on universal military conscription.An attempt by ZAB to introduce a smaller regular army with a wider expandable civilian reserve in time of war like Israel and many European armies was sabotaged by ZAB.The army as an institution has a vast share in the country's economy.

Seein in this situation little dynamism or independence of spirit can be expected from the present political set up already swelled by opportunists joining the coalition.There seems little hope that a leader will emerge who has the statesmanship , the intellect and above all the resolution to say No to the USA.The Unipolar World Order established after 1990 has successfully and without any moral regret successfully attacked and occupied two independent countries Iraq and Afghanistan.It appears that soon Iran will be on the hit list.Big business , banks with huge profits and big interests have already penetrated Pakistan's economy and stock market.Unemployment is on the rise and extremist outfits small in number but force multiplied by ruthless efficiency and fanatical motivation seem to be terrorising the silent majority.Just like 12,000 Bolsheviks held Russia hostage after 1917.A confusion of principle has been introduced by the contradiction between what the state stands for and its linkage with Pakistan's ideology.On the other side is the dilemma of balancing the Indian threat with the US threat and to walk a tight rope in between.Who will perform this extremely difficult balancing act.The military led by its generals mafia seems to have withdrawn but this is only a tactical withdrawal.A suspension of action by the generals.In hunting terminology it is said that once a tiger or a lion tastes human blood it becomes lazy , no longer hunts and prefers human flesh which is far easier a pray.Similarly Pakistan's generals have tasted the blood of their own people.They have been blinded by real estate and mega deals.Its difficult that they would abandon man eating.

The Pakistani politicians main benefactor is the USA , thanks to the National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) manipulated by USA they were bailed out.Its outrageously illogical to assume that any Pakistani politician would have an independent outlook.Rhetoric and some cosmetic gestures apart , docility timidity and meekness in front of USA would be rule of the game.

Peace between India and Pakistan is also a mirage.A glance at India's increasing defence and intelligence budget proves that the conflict will continue at low intensity till Pakistan is denuclearised.Every sell out to USA would be rationalised by Pakistani politicians and generals by saying that it had to be done to prevent Indian hegemony.

The USA is a strange ally of Pakistan.On one side its an ally and on the other it is preparing to reduce Pakistan to size.No joke that Henry Kissinger said that to be an enemy of USA is one thing but to be its friend is deadly.The USA has occupied Afghanistan not as a final objective.Its long term strategic agenda includes reducing Pakistan to size on one hand and to use its army as a mercenary just like the British used it against the Turks and the tribal Pashtuns.

A long hard road lies ahead for Pakistan.While Musharraf thoroughly discredited the army by his major policy blunders after 2002 there are many Musharrafs in the waiting in the army.While present politicians have got yet another opportunity to prove that politicians have not failed Pakistan.The challenge is phenomenal.Already the many hopeless intelligence agencies of Pakistan master at killing its own people and failing miserably in war to find out where the Indian Armoured Division was have re-commenced the game of divide and rule and breaking or blackmailing politicians.

This does not mean that the paki generals are invincible.History will take its course.Pakistan will be Balkanised because it is a failed state.This process may take up to two decades.Pakistan's army will outlast Pakistan and the potohar mercenaries will serve the Americans and even the Indians as loyally as they served the brits.


The future is not as bright as many hope and the man eater or man eaters has not been dealt with.Pakistan is sandwiched between a dangerous internal threat basically created by its army's misuse of religion and by a dangerous external threat compounded by a weak economy .One can only say that the remedy in this situation is not the job of a mediocre politician.Statesmanship appears to be sadly lacking and generalship extremely rare in Pakistan's army.May be we should expect a miracle ? But as Machiavelli well said more than 400 years ago " God was neither on their side nor ours".