Nirmala Deshpande - A Truly Great Soul

NKG,

Nehru visited Kerala at the invitation of Namboo but was against the imposition of Art 356. It's reported in the newspapers of that time. (There's widespread unrest in Kerala then).

However the Governor of Kerala Dr. B. Ramakrishna Rao gave his report to the Prez of India. It states interalia:

1. Mass release of prisoners (Commies) who murdered policemen

2. Interference in the police administration (tho laughable as if police and govt is separate)

3. Police interference in labour-management disputes

4. Govt's active backing in left Vs non-left trade unions

5. Meddling with civil service (weak point)

6. Use of govt-aided Co-Op societies in promoting Commie parties

7. Brutality and violent suppresion fo student agitations

8. Enactment of unpopular Education Act (run by Nairs and Christians)

9. Use of govt machinery to consolidate Commie party network



Inspite of the semi-chargesheet of the Governor, I am of the opinion that Nehru erred in dismissing the Namboo govt. However Indira Gandhi (bitch) was instrumental in effecting this dismissal.

Nkg,

JLN did not make much money becuase there was no money to be made. As they say, majoboori ka naam Mahatma Gandhi.

Regards

Re: # 221
"Nehru is not involved in any financial iregularity. Have u heard of Anand Bhavan in Allahabad?

P.S: U must have head of Ranjan Bhattacharya the son-in-law of Vajpayee who made crores of ruppes from wheelings and dealings? That sucker use to demand free kebabs from Ashoka Hotels in Dehli. What a cheap fellow he's!"

Ans: Who knows? Indian administration was nascent then. f you see the family tree (Indira, Rajiv, Sanjay...), it will be quite natural that he was not honest person.
Few kebabs are very less compared to stealing the entire Congress party and its power...
What is special about Anand Bhawan?

I think Vengat Bhai would share my thoughts on this...

Majumdar,

Poor peasants may not give away their land but would very much like to see themselves as part owners of all other institutions. The whole agri system we have is very well suited for a socialist system. GT will vouch for it. He has been expecting Wall-Marts of the world to run the Indian agri.

They know how evil are the capitalists. Afterall aren't they harassed unduly whenever they default because of crop failures which again is due to monsoon failures which again they have no control over it.


Poor peasants may not give away their land but when a government strips of their lands under aegis of developmental activities they have no other option egs Narmada, Vaigai, defence sites etc...etc...

Muthu bhai,

And among his Yes Men was a Krishna Menon who publcily defended Russian invasion of Hungary and later played politics with the Indian Army which cost it dear in the China war of 1962.

Regards

This is the reality of JLN's Mush like behaviour. Pandering to casteist and communalist outfits to dismiss a govt which tried to introduce land reforms and educational reforms.

Yes buddy,

I have read about the dismissal and wondered how Nehru was called the liberal democrat. After Patel's death, he became the supreme leader of Congress and got rid of leaders who were not 'yes' men.

Muthu bhai/VRV,

This is what I have dug up on the justification of the dismissal of EMS govt by the progressive, secular, democrat JLN.

http://kashaji.blogspot.com/2007/04/man-who-could-never-keep-his-job.htm l

(The Namboodiripad government in 1957 had irked the powerful Catholic church, the upper-caste Hindu Nair Service Society and the Indian Union Muslim League by introducing bills for radical land reforms and educational reforms. All these elements patronised the Oru anna samaram, the first student protest in Kerala, which employed violent tactics to protest against the government’s decision to raise the student concession rate in public sector boat services in the Ernakulam-Cherthala backwaters from 6 paise (one anna) to 10 paise.

As many as 15 agitators died in the police firing and finally the Centre invoked Article 356 to dismiss the government in 1959. “The struggle created an evil legacy of destructive politics in Kerala, of a brand of politics devoid of the element of sacrifice, of the politics that is a means of livelihood. This self-seeking politics deprived the Congress of the internal strength it had earned during the freedom struggle,� says political observer TK Ramachandran. Antony later expressed regret over his involvement in the anti-Namboodiripad struggle)

This is the reality of JLN's Mush like behaviour. Pandering to casteist and communalist outfits to dismiss a govt which tried to introduce land reforms and educational reforms.

Regards

There'e no comparison btw Nehru and Mush.

VRV:

I was comparing your justification of Nehru being a 'democrat' using constitutional means to dismiss the government of Kerala with the justification used by Musharaff.
That comparison is very valid.

Vengy,

I am not disputing your contention about agriculture being a loss making proposition. All I am saying is that India's peasants are very much attached to their private property (however miniscule or unprofitable it may be).

Regards

Re: # 222

Majumdar,

We have/had a huge proleteriat population outnumbering peasants . The land holding of most of the peasants is miniscule. A proleteriat coolie earns as much the small farmer can. Agri is for losers.


You speak what is served by the government and the media.

There is no way these
losers would have hated socialism. Where do you get the government to write-off the loand?

VRV,

(Nehru is not involved in any financial iregularity. )

I never said that AS lobbied.

Vengy Garu,

(The notion of everything owned by everyone would have appealed to the Indian bent of mine)

I am afraid, you dont know anything about the Indian mind then. Injuns, particularly the peasantry, tend to be very possessive about private property. They may agree to a family owned farm but never a collective.

Regards

#218 Posted by nkg on May 8, 2008 6:09:35 am

Nehru is not involved in any financial iregularity. Have u heard of Anand Bhavan in Allahabad?

P.S: U must have head of Ranjan Bhattacharya the son-in-law of Vajpayee who made crores of ruppes from wheelings and dealings? That sucker use to demand free kebabs from Ashoka Hotels in Dehli. What a cheap fellow he's!

Masan,

There'e no comparison btw Nehru and Mush.

Mohar,

That's funny.

Of course nehru was no saint.. evens the "saints" themselves are not always that saintly... example: mother teresa...

As for Nehru being a democrat, yes he was and he ramained. AS for sacking of Kerala govt, he used the Constritutional provision, which is far more restrained than Indira's rash dismissals.


:-) I heard Musharaff became president through constitutional provisions..

VRV...
First major stock scam in India in 195x...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haridas_Mundhra
Nehru was no saint...

Re: # 213
He was reluctant but relented later (to dismiss Namboo govt). What abt ur langoti BJP govt? They too did as well.

Ans: There are some basic differences. Wherever Congress imposed artcle 356, Congress is routed out of power. In the case BJP, Laloo was kicked out after couple of years.
You can not compare Congress and BJP in this regard.
Farokh Abdullah of J&K, N T Ramarao of AP, R K Hegde of Karnataka Congress is numero uno villain in this pack. During BJP rule, Central Govt. had far better relationship with Congress and other Govt.s. S M Krishna, Digvijay Singh, Vilashrao deshmukh, Budhdhadeb Bhattacharya have got much favourable treatment than their NDA counterpart like Babulal Marandi or Navin Pattanaik...

VRV...
Noble peace prize is now a total political stuff....

gtg & huried posts. mistakes crept in.

As for being critical of the existing realities, what's wrong with it - be it Nehru or us?

Unless u r critical of urslf u cant make amends or reform our system. That's the philosophy of criticism. To say that Nehru wanted to destroy the country is downright mental.

Majumdar,

U sound like Zeemax when it comes to seing ghosts in the afairs of Nobel Committee. Tho I cant deny some distortions but the way they award prizes incl to Amartya Sen is fair. To say that Sen lobbied is lie.

As for Nehru being a democrat, yes he was and he ramained. AS for sacking of Kerala govt, he used the Constritutional provision, which is far more restrained than Indira's rash dismissals.

He was reluctant but relented later (to dismiss Namboo govt). What abt ur langoti BJP govt? They too did as well.

Nehru economic policies were influenced by the centralised Planning economy of the Soviet model. At the heart of his decision was the wellbeing of the country. Btw, US was not an economic superpower then.

In 2008 we can say so so was wrong but we have factor in the realities of 1950s to cooment on the policies of that era.

Re: # 210

oxymoronic

Majumdar,

Stalinists would have shown knowledgible Indians, who knew the religion they belonged to, the rapid strides Soviet Union had made. At that point of time, it did appear to be a grand success. The notion of everything owned by everyone would have appealed to the Indian bent of mine and that would not have needed distortion of facts...

Valid question from majumdar.

If Nehru is such a liberal democrat and not a Stalinist why did he dismiss a democratically elected communist government of Kerala ?.

(I know the above statement has a lot of weirdness associated with it..:-) )

Majumdar,

It is a fact that Vaishnavites and Shaivites could not tolerate each other. The patronizing kings were used as pawns by the proponents of the respective faiths to decimate the opponent.

I will refer you to some books soon. And please don't bring in the rightist hallucinations here...

(That is preposterous...LOL... )

Nope. That is Stalinism for you.

Regards

Nkg,

Man Booker is Man Booker, Nobel is Nobel.

Regards

Re: # 204

Majumdar Dada,

That is preposterous...LOL...

Re: # 199
Majumder...
VSN was awarded with Man Booker prize ( UK) as early as 1971. You can not bring islamic angle at that time ( UK, USA were big supporter of islamists in Kashmir and Pakistan)...

Vengy,

The Stalinists needed to discredit Hindooism so that Hindoos wud turn to Stalinism. That is why they had to show up Hindooism's faults - some true (casteism, misogyny) some false (sectarianism)

Regards

Nkg,

(Couple of drops of tears for Nirmala-didi.)

Yes.

(All Gandhians are not as bad/hyppocrete as Gandhi )

Yes, again.

Regards

Majumdar,

How would sectarian clash truths fecilitate Red-Hinduism?

Enough debate...
Couple of drops of tears for Nirmala-didi. She had done quite a good job to reduce hiostility without causing any trouble to anybody...All Gandhians are not as bad/hyppocrete as Gandhi

Vengy,

(Can you enlarge on the motives, of the Stalinist historians, to play up the sectarian discrimination?)

Yes, the Stalinists needed to discredit the one thing that prevented India from going Red- Hindooism.

Regards

VRV,

Henry Kissinger got the Nobel because he was a great human being, right?

And isnt it quite curious how VS Naipaul got the Nobel in 2001 a month or two after 9/11. Maybe it was just a coincidence?

Regards

Majumdar,

Can you enlarge on the motives, of the Stalinist historians, to play up the sectarian discrimination? To my knowledge they were more interested in propounding the efficacy of state owned/controlled businesses...

VRV,

(Nehru was a democrat)

Maybe you can explain the sacking of the Left govt in Kerala (1959?). Or the death of SP Mukherjee in govt custody.

(but not a Stalinist.)

Stalinist (almost) in economic policies.

(Stop pretending like a soft liberal.)

When did I say that I was a liberaloon? I am a (slightly) right of centre Hindoo. And the Sanghis with their mindless opposition to kanjarpana and cow slaughter are no more closer to my heart than the Gandhians are.

Regards

Pl dont say that Nobel Committe is like a govt office in Calcutta where u can influence a person or a group of ppl to award Nobel.

OMG, u r far dangerous than Kaalachakra.

If JNU is anathema then u'd find LSE to be equally loathesome. U dont kow how REDD the campus of LSE is. JNU's supposed to be modelled on JNU and it's just living to its creed.

Have pride and call urself a saffronite. Stop pretending like a soft liberal. Be true to urself.

Majumdar,

Nehru was a democrat but not a Stalinist. We in India use these terms very loosely - perhaps to sund like analysts.

Nkg,

I never said that AS lobbied for it. It is just that Nobel guys were looking at a welfare economist to cover their faces after the LTCM fiasco.

(And what is this Mohammed Asadi folk?)

He is none other than our beloved Hazrat Masadi of chowk.com fame.

Regards

Re: # 179
Majumder...
Noble in economics...
AS was brilliant student throughout his career. It is very ugly to say that, he had received that through lobbying.
And what is this Mohammed Asadi folk? Is it Mohammed Younis of BD. Yes,that guy was also engaged in poor man's economics. AS was nominated for the same prize couple of times more.
Nobel peace prizes are mostly political...

Nkg,

RK Hegde was not a Lingayat, he was a Brahmin but yes he was favoured by the Lingayats of North Karnataka.

The Hindoos did discriminate on caste grounds but rarely persecuted anyone on sectarian grounds. That is just a fiction the Nehruvian Stalinists from JNU (alleged historians) have pulled out from their own rears.

Regards

Re: # 189
Vengat...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulothunga_Chola_II
This tells different story. I am not opposing your view. In Karnataka, Vokkaliga ( Vaisnavaites) and Lingayats (Shiviites) are two dominant groups, which generally competes in all sphere of life ( famous DeveGowda Vs. R K Hegde or very recent HD Kumarswamy Vs. Yedurappa in politics). I have not seen violence between these communities or aware of any such history. I will investigate with couple of our collegues. They will be able to tell me the exact story. In fact, Tipu Ghazi/Sultan's dark side you will find from the local folk tells in Mandya and Shimoga region...

Shaivites persecuted Vaishnavites...Start from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanuja

Re: # 186
Vengat...

Ram is not uniting factor for all Indians. In West Bengal, Assam & Orrisa, Ram is just a character from epic Ramayana. He might not be fictitious character and may be incarnation of Vishnu, but people don't connect him with divinity. Same goes the story with Tripura and other North Eastern states. Jammu, Punjab, Maharashtra and Konkan region. Ram is not main god of the people.
If you follow the path of Ram, it is UP, MP, AP, Karnataka and Tamilnadu. In these states you will find Ram temples.....

Majumder, Haris...
Ans: We have obligation towards Bangladeshi Hindus. That is OK, but then, Bangladesh had to take the obligation of WB moslems. We have taken obligation of Bangladeshi Hindus, poor Bangladeshi Muslims and we have WB moslems. Eastern districts (Nadia, 24 PGS, Malda...) have exceptionally high population density and this excessive population is killing WB...
Regarding ration card etc.. it is controlled in rural body level. Each political party is equally responsible for this. SUCI,CPI(M), Congress, TC...everybody needs muslim vote (fastest growing and only segment of vote in WB)....

Re: # 185

Nkg,

Then do we need Ram?

Guru, Vengat...

I am not aganist Gandhi. Every person is fallible. So was Gandhi. He knew public sentiment and so was able to transform elitist movement of Congress into the common masses . Both Congress and ML had problem with interaction with masses. ML had the weapon of Islam to connect to muslims. They have used it properly (Islam is in danger etc...) and it is no surprise that Pakistan is doomed into a islamic state rather than state for muslims....
On the other hand, Congress had no such tool. You can not say Hinduism is in danger (it does not work). So, Congress have to use Gandhi and his acting (single cloth, travelling in second class...) to bring commoners in their fold. It will not be outragious to say, Laloo is the politician who uses the mathod quite effectively.
Lalloo has created an effective image of an non-elite.
A 4000 year old civilisation does not need any "Father of Nation". It is against the ethos of Indian culture. This is kind of islamisation (prophet concept)....

Nkg,

I think you are right, apart from Jayakanthan we do not have many to boast in the literary world. I will even go as far to accept the rest of India's population is culturally and intellectually superior. What Tamilnadu has achieved and others have not is social amity and self respect. Though it was achieved at a great cost to the upper castes, I would still rate it as one of the best things to have happened to the world.

Even, at this point of time, the lower caste people of Tamilnadu has far more to catch up with the upper castes of the rest of India. What is remarkable is, the belief in them that they can achieve intellectual and cultural parity. They have proudly defended their language and they have not indulged in religious animosity. This, I believe, is where tehe rest of India has failed. Appropriate credit has to be given to the upper castes of Tamilnadu for contributing to the social revolution.

We will come to a point where we will have no more frustrated kids, of any caste.

#181 by nkg

BJP is for migration of Bengali Hindus into West Bengal.
Congress, TC and CPI(M) for everybody....

The question is not whether we should allow Bangladeshis, it is whether it is being done legally. The commies simply need votebanks and the illegal B'deshi migrants fulfil that need nicely.

I agree with Majumdar bhai that India has the moral obligation towards Hindus in Pakistan/B'desh.

Nkg,

(BJP is for migration of Bengali Hindus into West Bengal.)

BJP is right. If Hindoos are persecuted in Pak/B'desh we have a moral obligation to provide them shelter.

Regards

Re: # 178
Haris
It is not monopoly of CPI(M)...
BJP is for migration of Bengali Hindus into West Bengal.
Congress, TC and CPI(M) for everybody....

Re: # 176
Guru...
Gandhi died at ripe age (more than 75). How much more time you want to give a person?
Gandhi had the full support structure with him- Congress party with its cadres - Bajaj, Birla with their money. Still he is not icon. Majority of Indians follow different icon. Isn't it a matter of shame for a "father of nation"?
Compare the life of Swami Vivekananda. How within 39 years of life span, he had created an instution ( R K Mission), which without any Govt. support or support from business class flourished...

Nkg,

I for one don't want to kick out any INDIAN Muslim from India. But there was no need to invite Bong Muslims who believe in the TNT to settle down in India.

Re: Nobels

RNT got the Nobel 'cos the Brits wanted to mollify the Bongs from leading the freedom movement. The Bongs were pretty p***ed off becuase of the partition business.

AS- Remember the year before AS got the Nobel, the Nobel had gone to the guys who formulated the Black Scholes equation for derivative pricing. These gentlemen were also bosses of a company called LTCM which went bust shortly after they got the Nobel. The Nobel people ended up with lots of eggs on their faces and to cover up their shame were looking for someone who writes on development economics. Now no one writes on development economics except muddle headed folks like Amartya Sen and Mohammed Asadi and given the quality of competition, it was no wonder that Amartya Sen won out.

I hope I have explained.

Regards

#177 by nkg

Yaar I saw a documentary series on NDTV which showed how local authorities from the CPI prepared voter and ration cards for infiltrators and helped them settle so that they could bolster their votebanks.

Anyways, I don't what to label Bongs wholesale as you have done to Tamilians. I've met Majumdar bhai and he's a gem of a person.

Kalam, Haris, Majumder...
Ans: This 2.5 crore people you have to receive due to the following reason...
1. The Hindus of Bangladesh had committed no crime such that they have to suffer in a moslem country. So, they have to be rehabilitated in India.

2. Bengalis are not barbaric like moslems, such that they will kick out moslems from West Bengal. This is our nature. I think, will you kick out minority mislims into some other country.

3. The ration card/voter Id card is controlled by loac bodies in West Bengal. The Bangladeshi moslems come to India in the pretext of health and other purpose and settle in muslim majority areas. The local muslims in border districts help migrate Bangladeshi muslims. It is not in the hand of us ( non Bangladeshi Hindus living in West bengal)...
BSF is very corrupt. Pay 200INR, they will allow Bangladeshis to enter India without any document. After that, how will you identify whether the person is Indian or Bangladeshi and how will you deport him/her? It is very difficult situation...

I have nothing against JJ or APJ. I dislike the hype created around APJ.

RNT had written national anthem of two nations. It is no mean feat. AS was nominated for Noble couple of times. I am not aware of any political connection, which helped them winning the noble.Majumder please elaborate...

Re: # 163: Nkg,

Genius of Gandhi is not in new ideas or the wordsmithy about them in debating clubs like other his contemparies. He put them in practice like Ramkrishna became Muslim, Christians etc for a while. Other important is his ability to take simple ideas to the unwashed masses,eg cleaning latrines by higher castes. I wish he also had started working on Sulabh Sauchalaya, and so no one has to carry night soil. As Harish said if he had little more time to live he would have done that as well.

My dear student nkg,

See this senility made me forget, what I wanted to tell you...Agni could not have pin-pointedly hit a bus full of Agri students, you know, but Amma, you know, can do that more precisely...

Thats the reason out wise Tamil population always prostrate before Amma. You are insulting our Amma, when you say she had to support her family. You know her dad was a doctor with Mysore Maharaja and her mother a musician WITH Mysore Maharaja too.

My dear student nkg(even if you were not under my tutelage, you are learning isn't it),

I know you are surprised, why this old man without any achievement speaks to me. I will tell you my boy. I am not feeling bad when you say I am an underachiever, I feel bad only when you put me and JJ madam on the same plane.

How I can be equal to that Madam, my student dear...Afterall I just fine tune some missile navigation systems, which other scientist had done by then...You know this Bhagavatham and Thevaram has made me like this.

You know there is nothing big about Agni when you compare to Amma's potentialities. The other day my dear student nkg, when Amma JJ got convicted by the court, a bus full of Agri graduates were on their educational tour. Amma's devotees burnt the bus and three beautiful children (girls) were charred. You see how powerful Amma is...If I had done this deed, it would have caused so much pain. But see Amma, she is as beautiful as she was before burning the bus...She still smiles...That is the mark of a good leader , my dear student.

When you say Tamils are insane, why these insane Tamils are getting angry at you. In the name of Bhagwan and my Vision 2020 these guys should stop hurting you...

God bless you my student...When you are free I can teacj you Veenai too...:)

Nkg,

The only Nobel laureates from Bongland, RNT and AS got for Lit and Eco and as we know very well these are politically motivated. The two Tams who got it, CVR and Chandrashekhar got it for Physics which are not awarded on a biassed manner.

Why is WB's population a disadvantage. More people means more economic units (producers and consumers) provided these people are not lazy fools like Bongs.

Regards

#170 by nkg

With 2.5 crore ( at least) aditional population for a small state like Bengal, it is doing quite good.

And who welcomes those 2.5 crore additional people, giving them voter ID and ration cards? The very commies you elect term after term. Why blame them?

#170 by nkg

Only living Noble Laurate from India is a Bengali :-)

When Sir CV Raman was alive, he was the only living Nobel Laureate from India and a Tamilian too. What does it prove?

I bet if Prof Amartya Sen had remained in Bengal, he would have turned out to be another chain-smoking commie loving gentleman :-)

Majumder, Haris...
Ans: Way ahead of Bongs!!! With 2.5 crore ( at least) aditional population for a small state like Bengal, it is doing quite good.


Only living Noble Laurate from India is a Bengali :-)

#164 by majumdar

Maybe he would have accepted that the TNT was right!

Gandhi's principle was that all human beings were one. TNT being such a divisve ideology would never have found favor with him.

#166 by nkg

Anyhow, regarding politics and entertainment, Tamils are totally crazy,insane. I have not seen such political scenario in any other state ( UP is trying to emulate it- Mayawati Vs. Mullayam similar to JJ Vs. Karuna)....

The crazy and insane Tamils are way ahead of the brilliant Bongs in every respect, despite the antics of JJ and Karuna, while the chain-smoking bhadralok lag far behind the Khushboo-worshipping crazy Tamils. Are the brilliant Bongs so blind that they cannot see what is good for them and continue to be enamored by the Commies when even China is discarding Communism slowly?

Nkg,

(Tamils are totally crazy,insane.)

These crazy Maddus also have some of the best social and economic indices in the country. And some of the best brains too.

Regards

Re: # 159
VRV...

"Jayalalithaa is not a school drop-out. She studied up to 10th and discontinued studies as she had to support the family. Secondly, she stood state-first in 10th class (that's what I read).

Finally she's not supposed to use the honorific title Dr in her name (cos it's an honorary Doctorate). Same goes for APJ Abdul Kalam. Tho he had some inventions in his name the Dr he had is an honorary title and they are not suposed to use them regularly."

APJ is not great scientist. He is very good materials engineer; thats all. RSS made him hero. He has no basic contribution towards science. Almost all DRDO/ISRO projects are hired technology from Russia. Now, we are colaborating with Israel & France to get better defence technology (in fact China does the same)....
J J is good leader. Anyhow, regarding politics and entertainment, Tamils are totally crazy,insane. I have not seen such political scenario in any other state ( UP is trying to emulate it- Mayawati Vs. Mullayam similar to JJ Vs. Karuna)....

Re: # 160
VRV...
History instills confidence within a nation. From 6th/7th standard onwards, we learn mathematics for the sake of learning and for the students it is an alien subject. At least the students should know, it is our own. It may attract more love for the subject.
A nation with 1Bn people is placed 25th in mathematics olympiad. Though we are doing quite well in Chess in recent times, that can not be said about mathematics or basic sciences. Grassroot level, the ownership or love is missing.

Harishbhai,

(The man was constantly learning and evolving and would have wanted India to do the same and not remain stuck in a time warp. )

Maybe he would have accepted that the TNT was right!

Regards

To VRV,Guru, Ekalavya...

I was never part of RSS or any other organisation. I visited Belur Mutt once. I am aware of the works of R K Mission and admire it.

I have stated some facts. You counter that with facts. There is no point being emotional. Gandhi was

Regarding ancient mathematics, I was amazed to see how simple math can be represented using simple lines....

Please tell me one of the Gandhis social idea, which was totally unknown to India.

#156 by majumdar

Similarly of course India has largely discarded MKG's legacy (mercifully) Even Harishbhai and VRV dont want India to follow Gandhi's footsteps.

Majumdar bhai if Gandhi were alive today, he would be most disappointed if we still carried on with his ideals 60 years later. The man was constantly learning and evolving and would have wanted India to do the same and not remain stuck in a time warp.

My, what a board! :) :)

No matter how cynical and crabby one gets, seeing Indians still retain respect for Gandhi makes one happy.

Way to go, vrv, vengat bhai, harish and others of the Light Brigade. You beat back the cynical 'old' (well, majumdada and masanamuthu are young) gang of nkg, majumdada, masanamuthu, santani, and kaal! (Thumbs up icon here)

NKG,

What shud say now? To me u r a soft-RSS guy. Lemme tell u one thing. I too went to RSS for over one year in my late teens. So u need not educate me on RSS' view of Bharat.

Vedic Mathematics :

The video is a bit funnier. Tho Vedic ppl were the inventors of Zero concept, the mathematics they knew was no more than additions, subtractions and multiplications (?). There're no complex mathematics involved. If Varaha Mihira, Arya Bhatta, Bhaskara had some contributions it's becos they worked on mathematics & NOT becos they worshipped some stones.

Tho Vedic ppl are ahead of the times then, the same stuff cant be used now for the times we live now. World has moved a long way & we need to catch up with the rest of the world. It's better not to be stuck in the olden times.

++

Gandhi's social ideas :

Tho some ideas are outdated and some are refashioned to the modern times (Gandhi era) but his work of uniting Indians regardless of caste distinctions is unmatched. He inspired millions of Indians who worked to erase caste rigidities.

Gandhi was a faddist but he shone like a star during the final stages of Indian freedom struggle. Ur langoti RSS effers are not worth a mention as far as freedom struggle is concerned.

#143 Posted by majumdar on May 7, 2008 5:14:42 am

Majumdarda,

It's an outburst and I apologise for that.

Venkat,

Jayalalithaa is not a school drop-out. She studied up to 10th and discontinued studies as she had to support the family. Secondly, she stood state-first in 10th class (that's what I read).

Finally she's not supposed to use the honorific title Dr in her name (cos it's an honorary Doctorate). Same goes for APJ Abdul Kalam. Tho he had some inventions in his name the Dr he had is an honorary title and they are not suposed to use them regularly.

However we can exclude Kalam as he's some inventions in his name but Jaya invented none but bus numbers like 1J and 1JJ in Madras.

Sanatani,

If you are a product of a single father you would not have abused somebody behind a nick and the net.

It speaks a lot about your family and your women. You probably were excreted in the loo through a rectum.

Re: # 156

Majumdar,

I believe its time we stopped believing in the 'Patriotism' business. Visit the nearest government hospital, you will see how many are in a queue for a obsolete dialysis machine. We are killing our own people in the name of defence spending.

Mohar bhai,

You are right. What matters today is what today's Injuns/Pakis want. Pakis shud be free to have an Islamist society if that is what they want irrespective of what MAJ (pbuh) wanted. Similarly of course India has largely discarded MKG's legacy (mercifully) Even Harishbhai and VRV dont want India to follow Gandhi's footsteps.

Sanatani shaib,

Kindly refrain from abusing Vengy sahib, he is a patriotic Injun.

(Thanks to J Man we have a clear Hindu state albeit one where we will lose Asom, North East and Bengal due to infiltration .)

Yes. But MAJ cannot bebalmed for Hindoos own foolishness.

Regards

Re: # 151:

Even Godsay would not say what you said. Gandhi was higher consciousness. His contribution to civilizational India is immense. Mind also that he was life long learner. He would have learned why all our gods and goddesses carry weapons by 49-52 because of Hyderabad, J&K and Tibet.

The man was honest, selfless and acted upon his convictions. Lot of leaders get following on negatives such as fear mongering, Islam Khatre Mein Hai, how many get followers for life for positives such as non-violence, organic living etc. He created real men and women. google on Mrudula Sarabhai. There is link in one of the post on Power of Faith.

Gandhi was Indianization of Marxism to some extent. Commies feared him more than Kangress.

Present day India could have played little game of good cop and bad cop to transform Islam of Indian muslims into Indian Islam. Gandhi would have played well the role of good cop.

Islam has to be Hinduized for the survival of the humanity. West is also coming to the same understanding. End of re-legions is ineviatble.

It is so beautiful that the 1st 3 letters of your name are the same as Shri J Sahib

ROFL..

Sanatani, looks like we are getting into a 'fetish' on Jinnah. The more I learn about the pre-partition conditions the more I become grateful to Jinnah. He is really the saviour.

Thankfully, Nehru/Patel/Jinnah deserve our Kudos.
we should start a movement for awarding "Bharat Ratna" to Jinnah.

Maj Bhai,

It is so beautiful that the 1st 3 letters of your name are the same as Shri J Sahib.

This Mo fkr Vengatraman seems to be a commie thug parroting commie nonsense like Shaivites killing Vaishnavaites

They have no proof of the same and yet parrot these innanities.

Thanks to J Man we have a clear Hindu state albeit one where we will lose Asom, North East and Bengal due to infiltration.

Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 131
Vengat...

"A few days back I saw a news item on a self-sustaining British village. Looks like Gandhi was not only ahead of his contemporaries but our contemporaries too."

Ans: Self sustaining,village based society was in India for long time. Indian society was very much harmonius with nature. Now, with large amount of population, we may not be able to sustain with the same model...

Re: # 140
VRV...
Ans: I don't like Gandhi. That does not imply that, I like Jinnah...

"Gandhi's political, economic ideas are not feasible but social ideas are very much necessary else there'd be more caste fissures that're comparable with Hindu-Muslim detente."

What new social idea Gandhi had brought into India, and what was the repercussion on Indian society?
The "ahimsa" and "class/caste equality" was part and parcell of Jains and Budhdhists and later Vaisnav movement followed that...
Gandhis "brahmacharya" was really funny. He was not born Brahmachari. He fathered so many children ( I can not prove Harilal etc.. were his biological son). And suddenly he decided to be brahmachari!!!
Ramakrishna Paramhansa had shown, how you can be brahmachari as well as living a perfect social life.If "brahmacharya" does not come to you naturally, then practise yoga (was it Sukracharya, who pioneered it?)...
Entire life of Gandhi is full of hypocracy and nice acting. That is the reason, though GOI pushes Gandhi to the largest extent (Father of Nation), it bears no meaning in common Indian mind. In each region, the religious leaders and social reformers get more respect than Gandhi...

Amogst Dalits - B R Ambedkar, Budhdha
Amongst Bongs - Ramakrishna/Vivekananda, Subhash Bose
Amongst Gujjus - Sardar Patel and Swaminarayan organisation and RSS is more acceptable
Amongst Maharastrians - Shivaji
Amongst South Indians- Perriyer, Sir MV...

R K Mission,Mata Amritanandamayee, Swaminarayan movement have more followers than the Ashramas in the name of Gandhi. That tells the truth....

Re: # 137
VRV...
The list of things u gave are good but do u think that Indian schools dont teach abt the great ppl u mentioned? If so then u are not educated in India. If u think that the works of those ppl ALONE be taught then u better live in a cocoon.

Ans: You are not correct. During my 10th standard, as part of math, I was learning the Sridhar Upapadya ( Quadratic Equation). I was not knowing who this Sridhar Acharya was and assumed that he must be some one from Calcutta University (for people of our village Cal University was best institution in India and may be in Asia (in mid 80s)). I have learned about him from internet, later.
History of science section (6th and 7th standard) do not cover Indian mathematicians or scientists of ancient age. The school environment is such that, math is an alien subject imported from West.

How amazing indian Mathematics was in ancient time check this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZKOPKIHsrc

Indian schools teach more about Hyppocrete than Charak or Sushruta. In West Bengal, the Govt. is trying to kill Sanskrit by not filling the vacancies in school level. This will eventually dry up the supply of students in higher education and then we will turn into another Pakistan. History of Pakistan starts with Arab invastion and history of India will start with Congress, Mohandas Gandhi and to appease moslems, Mughal and mediaval period will be there with distorted version.
India govt. wastes money on urdooo and madressah education and the present Govt. is trying to ban Yoga and Saraswati Vandana from schools. Govt. funds is used to breed more terrorist/islamist and ignore the health aspect of the student...

You will feel actual India in South (including Orissa). May be it is true in North East also (Assam, Nagaland, Manipur etc...).
Each state has their own culture, rich with style of painting, dance form, music and beautiful architecture. The women folk are liberated. You will not find veil system there.

Remixed IGiri Nandini...enjoy in your pastime...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP8lJPp-N94&feature=related

Re: # 138 dada

This is NOT about gandhi and jinnah - this is about people... does not matter what j-man said - pakis wanted an islamic dar-ul-islam and so they should have that, they have no reason to follow so-called secular intentions that J-man may or may not have...

On the otherhand - people of india in general and hinuds in particular have always wanted a "secular" polity, which what they should have... regardless of what G-man may ahve said...

You are the one who puts too much focus on long dead personalities... you and YLH... let it go...

#145 by akcheema

May be we are talking about the 'working' class of the colonials?

Again no idea Cheema bhai, but I guess Muslims then were more rigid than they are now about such things.

akcheema,

A politician doesnt have to know anything and still suck. You know we have a fulllly endowed opposition leader Jayalalithaa, in Tamilnadu, who regularly bark inanities.

1. She would parrot how dangerous the India - US nuclear deal going to be without really knowing what the deal is all about

2. She would pose before TV cameras on her meeting with Ernst&Young consultants .....LOL

3. The one that takes the cake is how great she was in her academics. Though I dont give much importance to academic credential, this lady claims to super achievements when she is just a school dropout.

4. When speaks about Tamil culture and chastity, it is difficult saab to go og....

Jinnah was miles ahead of the contemporary politicians we have now.....Shameful existence we have now...

#143 by majumdar

MAJ (pbuh) espoused the separatist path very very late only in 1930s, he had been active in political life long before that.

Majumdar bhai, how does that change the fact that he used blatantly communal and provocative rhetoric and just one dishonest speech was not going to undo the legacy of hate he spawned?

Re: # 144; harish

I don't like ham sandwiches; so working class.

May be we are talking about the 'working' class of the colonials?

Khuda Hafiz

#142 by akcheema

I have no idea Cheema bhai, but it was perhaps a ploy to buttress his Muslim credentials as at that time he wasn't very popular with the ordinary Muslim because of his fondness for Ham sandwiches and whisky.

VRV,

(I'd shoot all these mothefukkas (Godseites) in one go )

Spoken like a true Gandhian!!!

Harishbhai,

MAJ (pbuh) espoused the separatist path very very late only in 1930s, he had been active in political life long before that.

Regards

Re: # 141; harish
"Jinnah raised slogans such as "Islam khatre mein", "Koran contains the complete way of life" etc"

Excuse the French but what the f... did Jinah know about what was written in the Koran!

#138 by majumdar

And Pakistanis disavow Jinnah's legacy including the principles laid down in his 8/11 speech.

All his life (well at least after he joined the ML, before which he was an insignificant non-practising Muslim (at least for the Muslim masses)) Jinnah raised slogans such as "Islam khatre mein", "Koran contains the complete way of life" etc. aimed at inciting Muslim masses, and to expect one hollow speech to guide Pakistan's future is like sowing a Pudine ka beej and expecting a Banyan tree to sprout out of it.

Majumdar,

That makes sense but the quid pro quo is quite funny. U dont attack Gandhi but u Godseites bat for Jinnah??????

I love peace but given a choice I'd shoot all these mothefukkas (Godseites) in one go as a one-off measure.

++

Gandhi's political, economic ideas are not feasible but social ideas are very much necessary else there'd be more caste fissures that're comparable with Hindu-Muslim detente.

Majumdar,

"Also you guys admit that although MKG was a great man, his ideas should not be followed either by us in our personal life or by India politically, socially or economically."

We don't have to. When people of your ideas get to rule, do whatever you want. Till then remember you live in a democracy where the numbers count...

VRV,

Let us make peace. We, the Godseites (sic) give up attacking MKG and you guys give up attacking MAJ (pbuh). Also you guys admit that although MKG was a great man, his ideas should not be followed either by us in our personal life or by India politically, socially or economically. And Pakistanis disavow Jinnah's legacy including the principles laid down in his 8/11 speech.

Regards

#133 Posted by guru on May 7, 2008 4:03:39 am
guru,

Country is greater than individuals. I agree but talking abt a Mahatma (abt his murder) is abhorrant.

The list of things u gave are good but do u think that Indian schools dont teach abt the great ppl u mentioned? If so then u are not educated in India. If u think that the works of those ppl ALONE be taught then u better live in a cocoon.

What Greece did and doing is to the detriment of that great civilisation there. The best brains of Greece find jobs elsewhere leaving Greece for the teaching of its greats sons of the bygone era. India want to emulate Greece i.e learning abt India's great past???

I am gald that u proved urself right here.

"Indian civilization is still under gulami and probably more so, as prophet Munnanhai (PBUH) says "Des Apana Hogaya Par Log Paraye Hogaye."

Few sound bytes for right perspective:

"In the modern planetary situation, Eastern and Western 'cultures' can no longer meet one another as equal partners. They meet in a westernized world, under conditions shaped by western ways of thinking."
--- W. Halbfass"

(u neened a gora to prove ur point. SO much for love for native wisdom:( )

++

Whatever said and done Gandhi was the key figure in India's independence. His ideas of cohabitation were pulverised by Islamists then but now the Hindutva brigade wants his name earsed from India is something I find unpalatable. His ideas are stupid as well as sublime but he never had a charter for India. He had a vision, a vision of goodwill and good people.

Guru,

You were against us participating on Chowk. I thought you would never come back :)

Re: # 134:Majnu,

dont have much time ... religion and dharma are like chalk and cheese. Pl read my past posts filtering out gali-galoch and anger. dharma is rooted in the land you stand on and enjoying life you are living.

If you truly mind your regards then you would read before spit out ...

Guru,

Please do not despair. A (Islamic) version of the ideology that you worship is fast gaining currency in NWFP under the able guidance of Mahatma Baitullah Mehsud.

Regards

Nkg,

Godse fool aborted India's true emancipation. Pl dont go by the caricature of Gandhi. If this Gandhi phenomenon had ran its course for another 15-20 years then following would have happened:
1. Dissolution of congress and birth of true democracy.
2. JN and other job seekers who were colonized in mind would not implemented alien concept of "secularism." Dharma is secular by design.
3. More integration of Dharmic folks ie uprooting of casticism.
4. Babu license raj would not have taken birth.
5. Citizens with more sense of belonging and social responsibility. Less corruption.
6. Franchise based on character and not on age. Caste politics would not have taken birth.
7. Environmentally benign real long term growth instead of fake green revolutions.
8. More emphasis on primary and secondary education and that too in vernacular medium. We would know more about our Pannini, Patanjali, Buddha, Nagarjuna, Dharmakirti, Bharthrhari, Shankara, Abhinavgupta, Bharata Muni, Gangesh, Kalidasa, Aryabhata and dozens of other great classical thinkers produced by India.

9 Technology and science growing from the grass roots. Now too late in the game, west will go on printing more $/Eu and we will go on doing testing, maintaining and nominally improving the technological products, the ownership will be always in their hand in forseeable future.

Indian civilization is still under gulami and probably more so, as prophet Munnanhai (PBUH) says "Des Apana Hogaya Par Log Paraye Hogaye."

Few sound bytes for right perspective:

"In the modern planetary situation, Eastern and Western 'cultures' can no longer meet one another as equal partners. They meet in a westernized world, under conditions shaped by western ways of thinking." --- W. Halbfass

Spiritual and intellectual svaraj (self-rule) is as fundamental to the long term success of a civilization as is svaraj in the political and financial areas.

Hardware is civilizational India but the OS is western. Cut and paste constitution is not Indian. far away from RamRajya so every one is breaking the law ...people have dont feel ownership of the law.

While India supplies information technology, biotechnology, corporate management, medical and other professionals to the most prestigious organizations of the world, it is unable to supply world-class scholars in the disciplines of its own traditions.

The most comprehensive and challenging knowledge representation systems available outside the West are contained in the Indian Classics but we are on the verge of losing it, because of foolish secularism of JN.

India even the non-aligned JN's India inspite of its economic growth is fast falling into the ghetto of South Asia.

They are talking End of History hope they start talking End of Religion, an Abrahmic exploitive concept.

Towards the end Gandhi had become the only tablet which could trnasform the western mind from inside. Godses of this world could have used it for his and Golwalkar's goal which were not that different from Gandhi's.
...Sorry I do not have time to elaborate or discuss, but I could not help this one. Young folks please don't murder Gandhi over and over again.

Vengy,

One swallow does not make a summer. But I am surprised that his homeland (India) has not disarmed itself volunatrily and turned the other cheek to Paki karnameys in Kashmir, Kargil etc.

Regards

Majumdar,

A few days back I saw a news item on a self-sustaining British village. Looks like Gandhi was not only ahead of his contemporaries but our contemporaries too.

It was on CNN-IBN.

Vengy,

Look. We all admire his ideals but none of us wants India to adopt his ideals unilaterally. That about sums up MKG's greatness!!!

Regards

Re: # 128

Majumdar,

Nobody cares if Gandhi was foolish or intelligent. What endears him is his ideals, which brings out the innate goodness of human beings and which reassures us about the goodness of being good.

Have we ever analysed the foolishness of Ram and Lakshman in running behind a deer or Yudhistra's acceptance to sit for a game of gambling?

VRV,

(not going to take away the greatness of Gandhi.)

MKG is a great man. And yet his followers will never advocate that India follow "Gandhian ideals" (unilaterally that is).

Beej bhaiyya,

(Jinnah tapped into it rather well and benefited in attaining his ambitions.)

So basically what you are saying is that Muslims are basically fundamentalist and separatist people by nature and that MAJ (pbuh) merely tapped into their basic tendency. In that case would it not be fair to admit that:

Pakistan was created by Muslim's innate fundamentalism and that MAJ (pbuh) was merely a unwitting agent of it.
MKG was a fool to have tried to represent both Hindoos and Muslims and that it wud have been better to have just defended the Hindoo's interest.

Regards

Re: # 124

Majumdar,

Muslims know that their God is different from Ram. Afterall almost all of the IMs know Ramayana upside down...:)

Majumdar,

Whatever u try to dominate the board here is not going to take away the greatness of Gandhi.

Gandhi is Gandhi. What I get from ur michief is that Gandhi was not khattarpanthi enuff.

Just in short…

(5) Anybody who thinks that Gandhiji believed in state controlled religion is either deluded or engaged in the worst form of deception. The term “Ram Rajya� was used symbolically, and only symbolically.

(6) Support for the Khilafat movement was VERY prevalent among large sections of Indian Muslims around the First World War, well before Gandhiji became active in INDIAN politics. Gandhiji did not bring it about. His intent in supporting it – perhaps misguided – was the notion that it would generate goodwill among Mussalmans and Hindus and coalesce into one force. To an extent it did happen – during 1919-1922, Indians were very united although a point has been made by historian Lawrence James that many of the Muslims did not believe in Gandhiji’s techniques and were only interested in using his “vehicle� of the agitation. Anybody who preaches the canard that it was Gandhiji’s support for the Khilafat movement which caused Muslim fundamentalism in India is being dishonest – the roots of that characteristic are far deeper and longer in history. The fundamentalism was there to be tapped – Jinnah tapped into it rather well and benefited in attaining his ambitions.

More in the evening, if I can get around to it.

Both concepts mean rule of God and I dont think the Islamists have ever claimed that they intend to oppress the minorities and women (what happens in actual practise is a different matter altogether!!!). We feel threatened by Talibs but I am sure Muslims dont feel comfortable when they hear the word Ram Rajya either.

Regards

#122 by majumdar

MKG's concept of Ram Rajya is the same as Hukumat-e-Ilahi that Maulana Baitullah Mehsud and his ilk advocate in Pakistan.

Majumdar bhai, you know very well what the Taliban rule meant for women and minorities. Are you saying Mehsud is going to do anything different? OTOH, is there any evidence that Gandhi's Ram Rajya meant the Hindu equivalent of Taliban rule?

Vengat,

(We have a sizeable Muslim population with us )

When have I argued otherwise? Btw, what needs to done to win their heart is no different from waht is needed by non-Muslims as well. These include:

Fast economic growth.
Improved policing, law and order and administration of justice.
Investment in the country's HRD sector (education/ healthcare).
Social harmony.

Re: Dharmam. MKG's concept of Ram Rajya is the same as Hukumat-e-Ilahi that Maulana Baitullah Mehsud and his ilk advocate in Pakistan. I hope you have no problems with H-e-I either.

Regards

Majumdar,

It is STILL right to think through the eyes of Gandhiji. We have a sizeable Muslim population with us and its time we started to think how we win their good will.

As Harish said, if INC or the Indian people thought Gandhiji was making unrequited and inappropriate concessions, which was against their will, they would have prevailed on them. This is what a Hindu is capable of. The concept of 'Dharmam' is too ingrained into the people of this land; they could not have acted in anyother way other than Gandhi's. In a way Gandhi represented the commoners of the majority pool. At least this has inculcated a sense of fairness or at least the importance of being fair. That’s the reason we have had upper caste people becoming the champions of lower caste.

Bharathyar, an important Tamil poet, a Brahmin revolted, against the upper caste for their discriminatory behaviour. He was duly ostracized. There are several instances and leaders like him. What I am trying to say is it was Gandhi or largely Gandhi's way of thinking that others related to shaped/shapes our conscience and made/make aware what our Dharmam is. We cannot afford to deviate.

Harishbhai,

( are you saying they were discriminated by Hindus when the British were ruling India? )

No. But they felt that they would be once Hindoos gain control of independent India unless they were given the sort of safeguards that INC was unable was to give, rightly or wrongly.

(Muslims (mainly B'deshi) have changed the demographics to such an extent that in many districts of Assam and Tripura, Hindus are already in a minority.)

Had MKG not cooled down the atmosphere in Calcutta, there would have been a complete exchange of population in NE India (Bengal/Assam) as well like in NW (Punjab) and the scenario that you are visualising would have never happened.

(What do you mean by fair treatment Majumdar bhai? )

I am by no means implying that IMs are treated unfairly in India (except aberrations like Gujarat). And that is why IMs are not talking about TNT nor are so many IMs invovled in the global jihad as some other countries are.

(What makes you think I'm advocating MKG ideals? )

Are you saying that you dont advocate MKG's ideals?

Regards

#118 by majumdar

If Hindoos dont violate the principles of Indian Constt I dont see any reason why IMs shud want another Partition, particularly as Pak/Bdesh do not show an exactly golden precedent.

Majumdar bhai, are you saying they were discriminated by Hindus when the British were ruling India? As for the Pak/B'desh, some Pakis already believe that Pakistan's sorry state of affairs is because Pakis are not being true Muslims and that the imposition of Shariah would be the perfect panacea. How difficult would it be for some IM to pick it up and then demand a separate state where they could correct the "mistakes" made by Pakistan?

Besides at the time of Partition Muslims formed a majority in NE and NW India, they dont do now anywhere.

AFAIK, Muslims (mainly B'deshi) have changed the demographics to such an extent that in many districts of Assam and Tripura, Hindus are already in a minority.

They are a minority everywhere (except in Kashmir) and if given a fair treatment I dont see them opting for another TNT.

What do you mean by fair treatment Majumdar bhai? Muslims are as discriminated against as other communities including Hindus are. But if you make this discrimination the basis and then turn it into a widespread campaign, it wouldn't be long before it turns into the bogey of Hindu domination, which is what Jinnah did 60 years ago.

Then lets follow MKG's precedent and follow his principles- disband the army and nukes, give up JK without a fight, allow Moplahs to set up Khilafat all over the place and all the rest.

What makes you think I'm advocating MKG ideals?

Harishbhai,

If Hindoos dont violate the principles of Indian Constt I dont see any reason why IMs shud want another Partition, particularly as Pak/Bdesh do not show an exactly golden precedent. Besides at the time of Partition Muslims formed a majority in NE and NW India, they dont do now anywhere. They are a minority everywhere (except in Kashmir) and if given a fair treatment I dont see them opting for another TNT.

(Jinnah set a dangerous precedent)

OK. Then lets follow MKG's precedent and follow his principles- disband the army and nukes, give up JK without a fight, allow Moplahs to set up Khilafat all over the place and all the rest.

Regards

#113 by majumdar

Well, the IMs agreed voluntarily to live with Hindoos under the Principles of the Indian Constitution in 1947-50 didn't they?

What Cheema Sahib says is spot on. What if the younger generation of Muslims say they weren't the ones who agreed to voluntarily live under the Indian constitution and that they cannot be held responsible for their grandparents' choices? Jinnah set a dangerous precedent; at least theoretically, there's no guarantee that it won't repeat. Like they say, you can be a virgin only once.

Re: # 111
AKCheema..
Have they gone separate ways sir? There are as many (at least) muslims in India as the population of Pakistan.

Ans: Muslims in India are thinly populated in most of the states. Muslims can survive only through integration. If they want separate state, in current setup, it is not possible to identify an area, which can be made exclusive for muslims.

Re: # 114; vengat
"I wish to think that the majority of the Muslims, who chose to stay back, wanted to have their destiny unfolded in India. "

nicely worded vengat; lot of wishful thinking there!

majority stayed back because of obvious logistics involved in mass human movement; let's not be foolish about it.

Cheers

Re: # 111

Cheema Saab,

I wish to think that the majority of the Muslims, who chose to stay back, wanted to have their destiny unfolded in India. They, proly, did not subscribe to the notion of religion as the only uniting factor.

Cheema sahib,

(How happy and supportive would you be if they all decide to have a repeat of 1947 in the future?)

Well, the IMs agreed voluntarily to live with Hindoos under the Principles of the Indian Constitution in 1947-50 didn't they? They made their choice and as long as the principles of the Indian Constt are not violated by the majority, I dont see why they wud want a repeat of the Partition.

Regards

Re: # 102
Haris...
Jinnah was representing moslems. They will resort to any level to achieve their goal. They are not loosing anything. Why should not we/indians make it in such a way that, it does not create ugly situation?
Couple of gems from MG...
"Islam unites, it does not devide...The division of India will be unislamic"- So, he was preaching Islam to moslems. How Islam unites? Khilafat movement...and India will be under Khalifa of middle east...

Re: # 107; majumdar sahib,

" And thankfully we didnt and allowed the Partition to happen. The point is that the Muslims and Hindoos had different POVs and it was best to go separate ways."

Have they gone separate ways sir? There are as many (at least) muslims in India as the population of Pakistan.

How happy and supportive would you be if they all decide to have a repeat of 1947 in the future?

I think we all need to move on from this parochial attitudes like I said on the other board

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 107

Majumdar,

"But do I take it that you agree that Muslims had far too many whims and fancies that were not acceptable to Hindoos. In that case would it not be unfair to blame MAJ (pbuh) for the Parttition, rather the blame shud be put on the entire Muslim community."

The foremost duty of a leader is to censure if his followers go wrong. When Gandhi could reproach his Hindu brethren, why not Jinnah?

Periyar makes a good example...

Re: # 102
Haris...
Ans: Partition without violence was quite a possibility. The Brit administration was quite capable enough to handle such situation. At the time of direct action day, Brits just allowed Surawardy to carry out massacre.When British Govt. decided to leave, they had almost allowed the anarchy to prevail.

Harishbhai,

(The ML demands were atrociously unfair and against the very principles of democracy.)

From our POV, yes. But from the POV of Muslims who feared Hindoo domination, no?

(Do you seriously think the INC could have accepted those and still remained a true and fair representative of all Indians?)

No. The ML demands were not acceptable to Hindoos and INC wud have been untrue to Hindoos had they accepted it.

(lest we repeat another Derby here )

Nothing wrong in having a derby as long as decorum is maintained. And to be fair you have always been polite and fair as far as interactions with me is concerned.

Regards

Vengat,

(Do you mean to say that we should have been perfect and have yielded to all the whims of Muslims to keep the country intact?)

No. And thankfully we didnt and allowed the Partition to happen. The point is that the Muslims and Hindoos had different POVs and it was best to go separate ways.

But do I take it that you agree that Muslims had far too many whims and fancies that were not acceptable to Hindoos. In that case would it not be unfair to blame MAJ (pbuh) for the Parttition, rather the blame shud be put on the entire Muslim community.

(Gandhiji was ready to go all the distance)

He did say "the country will be divided over my dead body" but didn't keep his word on Aug 14-15, 1947.

Regards

#103 by majumdar

I have never blamed MKG for India's poor economic growth, I have merely blamed him for making JLN the PM.

Majumdar bhai, in #91, you said the following:

#91 by majumdar

I blame him for imposing JLN as India's PM who (along with his daughter) screwed up India's economy.

If we go by the logic in this post, since Jinnah asked for the Partition, and the British for whatever reason did not/could not prevent violence and since the violence happened, Jinnah is to blame. Isn't it?

Had INC accpeted all of ML's demands there wud be no Partition either.

The ML demands were atrociously unfair and against the very principles of democracy. Do you seriously think the INC could have accepted those and still remained a true and fair representative of all Indians?

All said and done, I don't want to press you on this anymore lest we repeat another Derby here :-) You are entitled to your opinion.

Vengat...
Improperly managed partition had destroyed Punjab and Bengal (most powerful states in British India). Punjab recovered. Bengal was totally neglected by successive govt. It was Jinnah and ML's greatest work againt India ( damage two most powerful states).

Re: # 103

Majumdar,

I am not a student of history. Whatever it is, you cannot ascribe partition motives to Gandhiji. Do you mean to say that we should have been perfect and have yielded to all the whims of Muslims to keep the country intact?

To my knowledge Gandhiji was ready to go all the distance, human wisdom at that point of time would have allowed. Muslims (majority of them) never expected the partition demand to go through. They thought it would be wiser on them to keep Gandhi&Co on tenterhooks.

Harishbhai,

I have never blamed MKG for India's poor economic growth, I have merely blamed him for making JLN the PM.

Re: Partition

Had INC accpeted all of ML's demands there wud be no Partition either.
Had INC formed a coalition with Fazlu in Bengal and Allah Bux in Sindh and formed honourable coaltions with ML in Punjab and UP, therw ud have been no partition.
Had MKG not first roused the Muslims during the Khilafat movement and then abadnoned it without a word to Muslims after Chauri Chaura Hindoo Muslim distrust may have been halted.

Regards

#101 by majumdar

I have balemd Brits for the violence not for the Partition.

Majumdar bhai, I am well and truly flabbergasted now. If there was no Partition, would there have been violence? Who raised the Partition demand? Wasn't it Jinnah? So logically, shouldn't he be held responsible? When you can blame Gandhi for India's poor economic growth, why can't Jinnah be blamed for the violence during the Partition?

Harishbhai,

(you once said that the bloodshed during the Partition occurred because the British had advanced the date by a few months. )

Indeed that is ture. I have balemd Brits for the violence not for the Partition.

(You have also blamed the Congress and not Jinnah for the Partition. )

Sigh! Why wud I "blame" someone for a thing that was good? All I have said is that niether INC nor ML were willing to come to terms.

Vengat,

Re; 99

Thanks. It is time we (Injuns/Pakis) reconciled ourselves to separate existence and learn to live amicably rather than fight all the time.

(BJKumar's emotions against partition is quite understandable. He comes from Punjab )

He comes from Bihar, not Punjab. And incidentally my folks come from what is now B'desh and I have not the least regret that Bengal got partitioned and that my ancestral village wud forever be a foreign land for me.

Regards

#98 by vengatramanan

Vengat bhai, I am absolutely not against the Partition. It is the manner in which it was accomplished that I am against. While Pakistan escaped the harmful effects of that, it is still visible in India because we have a substantial Muslim population and the distrust it brought between the communities can still be seen and experienced.

I subscribe to Majumdar's thoughts on this. It is time we started living as good neighbours and stop enriching the wallets of others by sustaining hostilities.

Re: # 96

Harish Brother,

BJKumar's emotions against partition is quite understandable. He comes from Punjab and partition had a direct effect on the people of Punjab. There are many good things that has come out after the partition in the ensuing years. I am not sure if India had remained a single entity, it would have walked down the same course and the results at this point of time could have been undesirable.

I think neither of the majority, living today, feels bad about what happened earlier. It is time we exorcised the sadness, if at all.

#96 Posted by majumdar

Majumdar bhai, if I'm not mistaken you once said that the bloodshed during the Partition occurred because the British had advanced the date by a few months. You have also blamed the Congress and not Jinnah for the Partition.

Harishbhai,

(by the same token can we blame Jinnah)

Why shud I "blame" someone for something that is good. We need to find someone whom we can give credit for Partition.

(and not the British/Mountbatten as you always do for the Partition?)

I am aghast. When have I blamed the Brits and MB for the Partition. What I have always maintained is that the Partition 'cos neither of the parties was willing to come to a common point regarding the safeguards reqd by the ML and legitimate demands of the Muslim community.

Regards

....can we....

#91 by majumdar

I dont blame him for the economic woes. I blame him for imposing JLN as India's PM who (along with his daughter) screwed up India's economy.

Majumdar bhai, by the same token can be blame Jinnah (and not the British/Mountbatten as you always do) for the Partition?

Re: # 85
BJ...
...repenting...

Ans: Who is repenting? They are moving more towards arabs. Now, Pakistan is part of middle east and purely arab slave. Even people of Pakistan demands to remove the pre barbaric/mediaval period of history (Early Indus valley civilisation, Gandhar , Kushan period etc...).
Gandhi supported Khialafat movement. I presume, he would have supporetd OIC also. And then shariat for all Indians etc...
BD is folloing the same path...
BJ the more space you create for moslems, more trouble you bring for yourself. UK, France and Germany is realising it through the Paki, Turk and Algerian migrants.

BJKumar
Lot of emotional outburst...
While in SA, he supported Brits against native Julus. While whites are killing julus, Indians including M K Gandhi provided help to British soldiers. When Brits kicked him, he suddenly realised the value of freedom.

Gandhi had no bright side, which make him natural leader.
So, he required to resort to drama like wearing a single cloth, leading asutere life etc...He will travel in 2nd class compartment, but the total cost of journey will be more than 1st class one...It was his USP (like AkashVani for Muhammed, without that cheating mechanism, Muhammed reduces to a petty gangster). Gandhi, as a baniya, was aware of Indian sentiments. Why will he dilute his image?
Partition was total messy and Bengalis, Sindhis and Punjabis suffered a lot. If you agree with this, then we can take the debate further.

Beej bhaiyya,

(But how does that make Gandhiji a villain?)

No one is blaming MKG for the violence unleashed by Moplahs. I am only blaming him for overlooking the violence by Moplahs against Hindoos. He called off NCM after the Chauri Chaura violence where 22 policemen were killed by a mob. Why not call it off after the Moplah violence (which happened well before the CC incident) where many more people were killed.

(Hindus AND Muslims – knew that Gandhiji was right.)

So why did these Muslims who knew that MKG was right vote for MAJ (pbuh).

(They followed him in haste and they and three of their generations repent that act now…)

Pakis and Bdeshis are (not much) worse off than Injuns, (if at all they are worse off to begin with).

(Regarding the economic system…)

I dont blame him for the economic woes. I blame him for imposing JLN as India's PM who (along with his daughter) screwed up India's economy.

(perhaps it would not have worked against Hitler)

How I wish MKG had been born in Hitler's Germany

Regards

Side note to Harish Hyd:

Harish, thank you for being a sane voice in this crowd of rabble-rousers!

Just so there is no misunderstanding, in #88...the parantheses are implied in the (a) below:

(a) Socialism was the new kid in town (and was considered the effective counter to the feudalism which prevailed all over the world) and was considered by many of these leaders as the best thing since Baba Adam.

#various

(4) Regarding the economic system…

Yes, Gandhiji’s ideas in this area were isolationist/protectionist etc. He certainly did not believe in the supremacy of the capitalistic system. In that, he was not alone. Most of the freedom fighters of those days were believers in some mild variety of (Fabian) socialism. The reasons are understandable in retrospect:

(a) Socialism was the new kid in town and was considered the effective counter to the feudalism which prevailed all over the world and was considered by many of these leaders as the best thing since Baba Adam. Gandhiji can not be blamed for the decisions made by people who took power and implemented the socialist policies long after his death!

(b) Communism/socialism had not been proven to be a failure at that time. In fact, it was very much in ascendency. In particular, many of the "independence strugglers" were very impressed by how quickly the Reds dethroned the long-entrenched Russian czars! The evil side of communism (especially the dictatorial nature of it) was something that was yet to be experienced. Also remember that because many of the leaders were struggling against the British and the Russians were the counterweight party to the British, it was understandable that many of them looked toward the russians for inspiration.

(c) No, Gandhiji was not a communist or a socialist – but he truly believed in empowering the weakest people and empowering them not through the use of arms – but by changing the heart of their adversaries. One can argue forever if that is practical or not! After all, if your whole premise is that “all human beings have a heart� and will listen to it – well, your ideas will only work if indeed people have heart! If bunch of them refuse to admit that they have a heart then it will not work. Gandhiji firmly believed that if one offers enough sacrifice of one’s own – it will open the eyes of the other side. Perhaps it works (as in many places in the world, including during the US Civil Rights movement) and sometimes it does not (perhaps it would not have worked against Hitler) – but again, that does not make Gandhiji the villain – it only shows that he was well-intentioned – more than any of his contemporaries.

#86 Cheema sahib

I understand and I agree. The kindest thing I can say of the Jinnah is that he never pretended to be a good guy, or a democrat, he was first, foremost and last a "champion of Muslims" - whatever that term means!

As if the Muslim faith were going to disappear without his intervention! Talk about being "khatre meiN!"

I will leave it at that, too!

Re: # 85; bjk

Comparing Jinnah and Gandhiji is not a fair deal; there can be no comparison

I'd leave it at that I reckon; I have said plenty on the subject before in my discussions with Majumdar sahib

#various

(3) Annie Besant was an interesting person with strong convictions. Perhaps what she wrote about Muslim atrocities of those times IS true. But how does that make Gandhiji a villain?

Without casting aspersions on anybody, reality is that a large chunk of pre-partition Muslims did not identify with Gandhiji – perhaps many of the things he said were not things they could connect with. But how can one blame the large body of those illiterates for heeding the cries of “Islam is in danger� when “educated� bigots like the Jinnah believed nothing different?!

But only an absolute hideous hypocrite will – instead of blaming the creeps who stoked communal passions like the Mullahs (AND the Jinnah) did, turn around and start blaming Gandhiji – the one person who was trying to bring sanity back!

Fools, what would you have Gandhiji do? Turn into a Hindu Jinnah of a hypocrite?

Shame on you!

Where were your other leaders? If they felt so strong, well, why did not they push Gandhiji aside and take charge?

Why did they not rile up Hindus like the Jinnah and his gang of crooks riled up the Mussalmans?

I will tell you why. It was not for the lack of trying, for sure! They tried but Gandhiji prevailed always – because in their hearts, the vast majority of Hindustanis of those times – Hindus AND Muslims – knew that Gandhiji was right.

It was the subcontinent’s misfortune that the vast majority of the Muslims of what is now Pakistan followed the other guy – the megalomaniacal demagogue.

They followed him in haste and they and three of their generations repent that act now…

In leisure!!

#various

Jum dada, Eklavya, nkg and all the rest of the other assorted hypocrites!

You guys are so foolish I don’t know if I should even bother to interact here! But being what I am…

Let me pick individual items in random order…

(1) First, it is highly unfair to blame Gandhiji for the endemic ills of the country which we currently call India. Only an utter hypocrite or a lunatic would blame Gandhiji for such things as corruption after the British left. Give me a break! Here is a guy who felt guilty when he ate a bit of goat meat with some friend – you call him a proponent of corruption?! Get real!

Even a simpleton would know what brings around corruption. When public servants are not well-paid they supplement their income from below the table – if they can get away with it. Perhaps the Britishers were tougher on corruption – but more importantly, they set high standards for themselves – except for the early crop of East India Company wallas they were squeaky clean and honest in business dealings. That sets a good example. Corruption always starts from top – so blame the crop of leaders that came in – not Gandhiji.

(2) The same holds for other evils of the society – casteism, etc. Remember Gandhiji used to take turns at cleaning the toilet and other people in the ashram were made to do their turn! Would a casteist do what was called a “bhangee� job?! The reality is – Gandhiji was way ahead of his contemporaries on many of these ideas. For instance, can you imagine your idol – the Jinnah – cleaning his own toilet (what to say of that of others)?! Again, get real!

More points as and when I get around to those.

Re: # 74:
nkg,

"Indira Gandhi, in which sense was better PM?"

Compare 71 vs ABV's performance in 2002. What was prevented from happening does not come in news papers or electronic media. Smart IAS/IFS babus also have a large role to play. But keep it in mind that alternatives to her were leaders like Morarji not only foolish but also are very obstinate about foolishness. Other contempory were wimps. Taking this into consideration the lady was a boon for the time. Her limited intellectual ability was well compensated by her guts ... a real man among the pigmies. Listen how her enemies Kissinger and Nixon talked about her.
Keep it in mind that was the era when Salvodor Allandes and Mujibs were bombed or murdered. There were enough triators within India at that time.

Children drinking hot milk at 7 AM would not know the toil of the mother who got up early in morning at 4 AM and milked the cow in dark.

You must dig up chowk's archives and read posts by Yasser (nicks- Mantiolives/YLH) on MKG. Your eyes will be opened. He has proven beyond doubt that MKG was a Hindu rcaist, casteist, fascist, misogynist bigoted freak.


Are you joking?. I have read Mantolives' cut and paste articles on Gandhi. They are not convincing. Sure, Gandhi had some backward ideas, but to call him such words is a joke. He encouraged inter-caste weddings and arranged for his son to marry out of caste.

Majumder...
I am not fan of Godse...Gandhi was supposed to be killed...Be it Godse or somebody else...

VRV,

(That's a good repartee. I liked it. I am not a Gandhain, btw)

You can appreciate a differing POV and you have a sense of humour, so you can never be a Gandhian. The second sentence above was superfluous!!!

(Behind the veneer of soft Chowky lurks a mini-Godse.)

Your fellow secularist Sadnaji recently described me as a spokesperson for the Taliban and drug peddlers. Maybe the two of you can sort out whether I am a Godesite or a jihadi 'cos I can't be both at the same time.

(We export all anti-Gandhians i.e Godseists )

I am no fan of Godesites either, they oppose my fundamental right to enjoy the sight of my fellow (esp female) citizens indulging in kanjarpana. So we export our Godseites as well to Pak (along with the 3 of the 4 Ms- Marxists/Missionaries/Mullahs, the 4th Macaulayites will be needed for our IT/ITES industry)

(U can join hands with Muslism fundoos; tho u despise each other in public)

I don't despise Islamic fundoos at all. It is just that I want them to leave us Hindoos alone. Apart from that I have no dispute with them. As they say, there is no compulsion in religion, to them their ways, to me mine.

Btw, are you implying that YLH is a Muslim fundoo that wud be a surprise for I dont see how a non-Muslim (YLH) can be a Muslim fundoo.

Regards

#72 Posted by nkg on May 5, 2008 9:18:13 pm

nkg,

I need more time to answer ur points.

Majumdar,

U can invite Yasser to attack Gandhi now. That'd be great i.e. Hindu fundoos and Paakis joining hands (no surprise that Shyaama Prasad Mukherjee joined hands with Muslism fundoos; tho u despise each other in public u are blood bohters).

#71 Posted by majumdar on May 5, 2008 8:28:41 pm

Behind the veneer of soft Chowky lurks a mini-Godse. I am scared now.

OK, What abt this Dada. We export all anti-Gandhians i.e Godseists and they export all liberals.

That'd complete the Partition in spirit.

#70 Posted by majumdar on May 5, 2008 8:26:55 pm

Majumdar,

That's a good repartee. I liked it.

(I am not a Gandhain, btw)

Re: # 72
vengat..

Gandhi was not proponent of peace. He had adopted the path, Indians prefer and Gandhi earned fame.

Re: # 68
Guru...
Ans: PVN was the first decent, educated PM of India. And fortunately, next PMs are also good.(ABV and MMS are also good)...

Re: # 68
Guru...
Ans: I know, L & T was not british company.
When we talk about Konkan Railway and and other nice engineering construction created by L & T, we should remember, we had far better quality ( if you turn your clock back 1/2 century), British owned companies like B & R, Burns Standard used to produce best quality work in Asia...
Indira Gandhi, in which sense was better PM? The process Nehru started (politician & cow belt businessman nexus and resulting corruption), Indira Gandhi had taken that to peak.
In which field she had done good to India?

Nkg,

You must dig up chowk's archives and read posts by Yasser (nicks- Mantiolives/YLH) on MKG. Your eyes will be opened. He has proven beyond doubt that MKG was a Hindu rcaist, casteist, fascist, misogynist bigoted freak.

Regards

Re: # 67
VRV...
The basic technology of civilisation is provided by civil engineering companies. Civil and Mechanical engineering is mother of all engineering and technology. It creates the backbone of nation- Dam, Roads, bridges etc...During 1947, what other technology do you expect them to produce? Color TV, Refrigerator, Digital Camera?
Burns Standard, Bridge & Roof, Martin Burn etc. were pioneer in construction and railway engineering. Howrah Bridge was the largest cantelever construction in Asia..Thanks to the Bengali Engineers and Bihari workers...
The steel industry, chemical industry were adversely impacted by British exodus...
A vibrant industry was killed by Gandhi and his disciple Nehru to suppress Bengalees...What you are seeing now is the result of successful poisoning by cow belt leaders Gandhi and Nehru...
Regarding IITs...
Nehru had nothing to do with Technology. His father was servant under a moslem lawyear. During those days, lawyears used to earn more money than any other profession. Motilal somehow managed money and sent his son to study in UK. Before becoming PM), Nehru had no interaction with Technology.
IIT saga started with Dr. B C Roy. The premier engineering institute at that time was Bengal Engineering College, Sibpur, Howrah ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_Engineering_and_Science_University,_Shibpur) . It used to get technical assistance from Manchester University ( one of the poineer institutes in UK). Dr. Roy was closely associated with B E College and wanted to create similar institute in West Bengal. Brits had just left India. So, instead of relying on Manchester University, he wanted similar institute in USA and opted for MIT. The first IIT was setup in Kharagput with help of MIT. It was replicated later...
Regarding work culture...British had invested most in Bengal. If Bengalis were averse to work, then how come these industries were flourishing. What was the first steel plant in India? IISCO- Burnpur. The same work culture of Bengalis made them number one state during British rule and after 1947 Bengali work culture got changed!!!
Yes Mr. VRV, Gandhi needs peace....
Such a mass murderer needs peace!!!
Do you know, how many people of East Bengal were displaced, how many people were killed during 194xs? Who was responsible for large refugee influx into West Bengal?
http://www.bengalvoice.com/uproot_chapter6.htm

Gandhi was a petty lawyear. He had no extra-ordinary quality in any field (good academician? No. Extra-ordinary legal professional? No...). To be a leader, you need something above average talent, such that people respect you and follow you. When he was kicked in South Africa, he had realised the need of freedom and problem of racism!!! And you make such a person (needs to be kicked to teach- laton ka bhoot), father of a nation with 4000 years of civilisational history!!! Gandhi was pure baniya and with the people interaction skill,he was quite aware that majority of Indians dislike violence. If common people would have preferred that path, islamic invaders would have been kicked long back as well as these Brits...So, he had toes with the public sentiment...
Vengat, Gandhi was not proponent of peace. He had adopted the path, Indians prefer and earned fame...

Kaal bhai,

(Adieu Gandhi and Gandhism. May you prosper in the rest of the world. We will miss you but like any good parent, India must part with your for your own good.)

I have already offered Zee sahib an exchange scheme. Pakistan exports all its kanjars, kanjaris and mirasis to us, in turn we export our mullahs, Gandhians and Marxists to Pak.

Regards

VRV,

(You guys kill him everyday. )

And his followers dont follow him.

Regards

I am glad that her ashes will touch the Indus River.

Ras

Both Larsen and Toubro were not British. Started as ship boiler repair shop. Both took voluntary retirement in 1950s. They did not have great engineering or business background. This was their first venture. Genius was puting Inidan management in place and giving 100% control to it. Professional managers and technocrats built this highly professional organization. It was/is Indian company from the beginning.

Infact they got large BARC contracts some very stealth ones.

JN may not have been the best of the leaders of that time, when compared to stalwarts such as Subhash Chandra, Vallabhai Patel, Rajaji and few others, but he was defnitely in league because of his vision, sacrifice and dedication. Little vain and foolish dreamer in the world politics. Definitely created solid industrial base for India.

Tata & Birla actually had a free ride because of license raj, so became lazy.

India could not have become S. Korea because Angloes always felt threatened by civilizational India and socialistic argumentative Indian. We might have turned into Bakiland if we had not used Soviets well. Pl give some credit to JN and his daughter. His daughter was the only real man who ruled India since 66. Narsimha Rao comes close second in statesmanship and shrudeness. Tactical Baki leaders which includes MAJ & Bhutto are not worth comparing to these three.

#55 Posted by nkg on May 5, 2008 5:54:28 am

'Kicked all the British owned companies (construction companies), which used to provide technological backbone.'

Constrcution companies providing technological backbone? Give some other points. It's laughable that construcution companies are tech backbones!


'Today you are seeing L & T etc...Calcutta/Howrah was host of such companies, which was number one in Asia (Burns Standards etc...).'

What I saw in Calcutta is nothing but the graveyards of the bygone era. Do some introspection as to what ppl say abt Beganali work culture. (Have u heard this? Bengalis are like sperm, one in a million work). If companies were closed, it's only becoz of the host of non-Nehru reasons. Pl find some other scape-goat.


'The IIT, constitution etc...was brainchild of Bengal Congress leaders (Dr. B C Roy); which people give credit to Nehru...'

Boy nkg, even Ambedkar shud not be given credit for the Constitution. He's just the Head od the body! Need no elaboration.

'Regarding Nathuram Godse...Gandhi was supposed to be killed. So much bloodshed, and he will evade it!!!! But this poor chap made it very early. Gandhi was supposed to see his unpopularity and then die...Poor chap had not allowed that... '

Godse killed Gandhi once but ppl like u never seem to let him rest in peace. You guys kill him everyday.

Re: # 62

Eklavya brother,

Your wish my fortune.

He is seen as the main reason of uncontrolled immigration problem, Bengal is currently facing.

ROFL. yeah right. also blame Gandhi for the rising gas prices.

majumdar, venkat,

I've been reading the interacts (esp. arjun and hamid's for a few laughs), but work was keeping me busy.

I think people have to open up and at least read / listen to what the other side is saying. My principle has been to read all the viewpoints, and see what makes sense for me. Ofcourse, anyone reading the same stuff can reach a different conclusion.

I am borrowing Orwell's words.

http://www.readprint.com/work-1260/George-Orwell

One may feel, as I do, a sort of aesthetic distaste for Gandhi, one may reject the claims of sainthood made on his behalf (he never made any such claim himself, by the way), one may also reject sainthood as an ideal and therefore feel that Gandhi's basic aims were anti-human and reactionary: but regarded simply as a politician, and compared with the other leading political figures of our time, how clean a smell he has managed to leave behind!

My uncle( maternal) was working for GOI, ministry of Supply. This Dept. used to supply equipment and materials for Govt. Projects. The noticable change he observed was the creeping in corruption in the Govt. mechinery. People used to get scared of Brit officers. They used to think twice before committing any crime. As soon as they have left, entire Indian administration started becoming corrupt and, when Indira Gandhi become prime minister, it had become part and parcel of our life. All this happened as the leaders were corrupt (Congress), including Nehru...
Coming back to Nirmala Deshpande,what legacy is she leaving for Indians? We are not sure about it.
The Gandhian myth is creation of Congress and media. Our value system developed over thousands of years. Making Gandhi father of nation is too much....For us ( Bengalis), his contribution is almost 0. He is seen as the main reason of uncontrolled immigration problem, Bengal is currently facing. Furthermore, his dirty politics with Subhash Bose makes him villain than hero...

vengat bhai, at some time we must discuss this fighting the oppressors business and how or whether it is not related to religion, or whether Subhash Bose was the same as Osama bin Laden. :)

Re: # 54
VRV...
Tatas, Birlas grew inspite of the bureacracy inherited from the British Indian govt. Nehru never crippled them. If
Ans: Those business family, who were close to Congress got favourable treatment and enjoyed the monopoly. Gandhi was a baniya and was close to both Bajaj and Birlas. They have done nothing towards Industrial development in India...
Toyota and Hindustan Motors started production in the same year. Now Toyota is No. 1 Automaker of the world and Hindustan Motors stooped producing it's own model and assembler of Mitsubishi cars...

Re: # 58
Vengat...
Civilian/Non-Civilian ideas were bored into our craniums by the whites.
Ans: Not at all....
It was purely Indian concept right from Ramayana era... later UN adopted it...

Masanamuthu,

Long time no see :(...

Re: # 51

nkg,

Moplahs fought their opressors. Subash did the same, he fought the opressors.

Civilian/Non-Civilian ideas were bored into our craniums by the whites. It helped them to decide where, when, how and whom to fight. So they kept the rest of the population anticipating. Now they are getting their taste of their own medicine.

Gandhism can be followed only in India OR only in the rest of the world.

When India followed Gandhism, the rest of the world despised it. I still remember the sense of horror I felt in school days reading Gandhi being described as a cowardly Hindu political acrobat in a foreign magazine.

Now that we have no use for the man, the word has gone in a tizzy celebrating him, particularly in our neighborhood.

India is small. The rest of the world is large. I would MUCH rather Gandhism have a larger scope and following than us poor Indians can offer it.

Adieu Gandhi and Gandhism. May you prosper in the rest of the world. We will miss you but like any good parent, India must part with your for your own good.

nkg,


gtg. I'd reply to this tinite.

Re: # 47
Nehru had no magic wand to remove poverty. India was bled white by British for 2-3 centuries. Nehru also inherited the hate and social dissonance son ater 1947. He cant speak Jinnah's language nor he's saintly.

Ans: Yes man. But China was in worse situation than India. British had created basic infrastructure in almost all the fields. We needed to scale up. Nothing more was required. What had he done?
Kicked all the British owned companies (construction companies), which used to provide technological backbone. Today you are seeing L & T etc...Calcutta/Howrah was host of such companies, which was number one in Asia ( Burns Standards etc...). What was the need for Nehru to do that?
Nehru was not the only power centre in Congress. Couple of other leaders contributed. The IIT, constitution etc...was brainchild of Bengal Congress leaders (Dr. B C Roy); which people give credit to Nehru...
Regarding Nathuram Godse...Gandhi was supposed to be killed. So much bloodshed, and he will evade it!!!! But this poor chap made it very early. Gandhi was supposed to see his unpopularity and then die...Poor chap had not allowed that...

52, Majumdar,

"The result is there for all to see. How does one justify the crippling of India's private enterprise or the complete neglect of basic education and healthcare?"

Now u are a bit clear. Thanks.

Can u tell me how Nehru crippled private enterprise? Tatas, Birlas grew inspite of the bureacracy inherited from the British Indian govt. Nehru never crippled them. If the existing laws were cumbuersome, he didnt bother since propping-up business class was not his first priority. I think his economic policies were piloted by Mahalanobis.

Increasing arable land was his first pririty but he bothered to take care of higher education and made statutory
provisions for an enlightend India (not Gandhian India). His conributions to Indian Constitution (at least facilitation), Knowledge-base, Industrial sector are unquestionable.

Abt basic education and healthcare, u knw that these are the state subjects. How can the PM of India is blamed form PHCs and schools in villages.

Thanx u clarified on Godse but retracted by heaping abuse on Gandhi.

Re: # 37
Vengat...

Cholas, Cheras and Pandias butchered Vaishnavites and Buddhists in the south. Do you know the temples in Sabarimalai and Tirupati were Buddhist monasteries once?

Ans: The vaisnav movement was offsoot of Budhism/Jainism. So, it should not be surprising that Budhdhists/Jains become vaisnavs and performed puja of local avatar of vishnu...
Indian are God loving/fearing. Budhist/Jain philosophy is OK; but without the presence of God, it was not supposed to survive...
I am not aware of any violence by Cholas against civilians...

Muthu bhai,

Welcome back, missed u a lot.

VRV,

(He prapared the solid base for India's development. )

The result is there for all to see. How does one justify the crippling of India's private enterprise or the complete neglect of basic education and healthcare?

(He made some mistakes like believing China blindly but made amends soon after that.)

Yes, that he did. China licked India in Oct 1962 and he popped off in May 1964!!! Good amends.

(Do u think u are perfect.)

NO!!!

(that many here celabrate Godse but cant say it openly.)

OK let me say it openly. Godse was an a***hole who killed MKG and allowed him to be apotheosised (sorry for the spelling) as a five star saint. Both of them deserve to rot in hell.

Regards

Re: # 34
Vengat...
was an uprising that was similar to Subash Chandra Bose's violence.
Ans: Vengat, equitaing a Haji (completed course in barbarism/terrorism) to Subhas Bose is something of very poor taste. Subhas Bose was President of Congress with left leaning. He had never harmed any civilian, even the British people living in India. He was mayor of Calcutta and knew the pros and cons of democratic movement and military activity. You are equating these barbaric jihadis with INA!!!! Very sad.....

#48 by masanamuthu

Do you think Muslims despise Aurangazeb?.. I think that he is appreciated by Sunni Muslims. He is the one who stemmed the rot creeping into Islam in the form of culture et..al..

One side of Muslims admires him for being a pious Muslim who never missed a single prayer and bringing in Sharia-type rule to India. Another side despises him for being the man under whom the decline of Muslim rule in India started.

#48 by masanamuthu

Do you think Muslims despise Aurangazeb?.. I think that he is appreciated by Sunni Muslims. He is the one who stemmed the rot creeping into Islam in the form of culture et..al..

One side of Muslims admires him for being a pious Muslim who never missed a single prayer and bringing in Sharia-type rule to India. Another side despises him for being the man under whom the decline of Muslim rule in India started.

Yet he is despised by Hindus as the man who imposed Jiziya and Muslims as the man under whose rule decline of the Mughal empire started.

This is interesting. Do you think Muslims despise Aurangazeb?.. I think that he is appreciated by Sunni Muslims. He is the one who stemmed the rot creeping into Islam in the form of culture et..al..

Why do people think Jinnah and Gandhi as adversaries. Both have done good to India. I think Jinnah's contribution is more and under appreciated in India. Think about this. All the news reports now would talk about "Indian jihadis" instead of "Pakistani jihadis".

If not for Jinnah / partition we would all be living as "dhimmis" in the new caliphate initiated by Gandhi .

#44 Posted by majumdar on May 5, 2008 5:16:05 am

Majumdarda,

Unless, u say anything clearly, it's impossible to talk abt any issue. What muddled thinking? What's it?

Nehru had no magic wand to remove poverty. India was bled white by British for 2-3 centuries. Nehru also inherited the hate and social dissonance son ater 1947. He cant speak Jinnah's language nor he's saintly.

He prapared the solid base for India's development. He started big insuduries. He invested in higher education and becoz of him we have Reseach instts, IITs, Nuclear and Space acievements.

He made some mistakes like believing China blindly but made amends soon after that. Nobody is perfect. Do u think u are perfect. I am not.

The recurring problem on Chowk is that many here celabrate Godse but cant say it openly. Thye want eternal bloodshed but cant lift dhoti to start one real fight. :(

Harishbhai,

Pakis (barring YLH, Zee and Zeena) dont go out to defend MAJ (pbuh) but they all revere him very much. And Pakis dont criticise him either or say that Pakistan was a mistake.

Regards

#44 by majumdar

But is MAJ (pbuh) despised by his own countrymen.

Apart from Yasser and a couple of other Chowkies, I haven't seen any wholesale admirers of Jinnah either.

VRV sahib,

His muddled thinking substantially delayed India from breaking about of poverty.

Harishbhai,

(Yet he is despised )

About Aurangzeb, yes. But is MAJ (pbuh) despised by his own countrymen.

(Gaffar Khan, the man who inspired the fiercely proud Pushtuns to embrace non-violence. )

Not all Pushtoons. Only the Verkottey Vilayetis (you can ask Zee sahib about that). The true blue Pushtoons (the Waziris, the FATA gang et al) never accepted his leadership.

Regards

#35 by majumdar

Just on the strength of his personality and incorruptibility.

Majumdar bhai, Aurangzeb was also said to be very austere and frugal. Yet he is despised by Hindus as the man who imposed Jiziya and Muslims as the man under whose rule decline of the Mughal empire started. It is easy to whip up paranoia amongst the masses and incite them to tear their opponents to shreds, far more difficult to inspire people to withstand beatings and yet not retaliate; and through the force of moral invincibility, force the oppressors to free them. Both Gandhi and Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan were great men who achieved that. If Pakis need a hero, they needn't look beyond Gaffar Khan, the man who inspired the fiercely proud Pushtuns to embrace non-violence.

Majumadar,

Poverty is the result of pluner of India for several cennturies. Why Nehru is to blame for that?

Vengat Garu,

(but not the cause?)

Becuase there was no cause to begin with. Moplahs were jihadis like the Waziris. And at least the Waziris are fighting for their legitimate right to sovereignity.

Regards

Vengat Garu,

(Cholas, Cheras and Pandias butchered Vaishnavites and Buddhists in the south.)

Sources please. By the way if there was any violence by Hindoos against Buddhists, I dont justify that. Neither do I jutsify MKG's support for Muslim violence against Hindoos.

(Do you know the temples in Sabarimalai and Tirupati were Buddhist monasteries once? )

Sir in ancient times waht was Jainism, Buddhism and Hindooism (if such a thing existed) was possibly never very clear. Hindooism adopted Buddha as the ninth avatar of Vishnu and also adopted much of Jain philosophy especially vegetarianism.

Regards

Maju Anna,

Annie Beasant too was a human and she could have had tinted eyes too. Why is that she was horrified about the effect but not the cause?

VRV,

(JLN's a statesman. )

The results of his statesmanship can be seen every morning- besides the railway tracks.

Vengat Garu,

Pls read Ms. Besant's description of the Moplah rebellion. To the best of my knowledge Ms. Besant was not a bajrangi.

Regards

And I don't remember Gandhi condoning/condemning Subash hyper-actively.


Cholas, Cheras and Pandias butchered Vaishnavites and Buddhists in the south. Do you know the temples in Sabarimalai and Tirupati were Buddhist monasteries once?

This is from Annie Basant...She was neither Hindu nor part of RSS...

Annie Besant stated: "They (Moplahs) murdered and plundered abundantly, and killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatise. Somewhere about a lakh (100,000) of people were driven from their homes with nothing but their clothes they had on, stripped of everything...Malabar has taught us what Islamic rule still means, and we do not want to see another specimen of the Khilafat Raj in India."

Harishbhai,

I do not mean to belittle Saladin but MAJ (pbuh) achieved his goal, an independent nation for desi Muslims without having any guns or army on his side. Just on the strength of his personality and incorruptibility. Supporters of non-violence would surely appreciate that. Besides Saladin had the unstinted support of Muslims in his jihad against Crusaders, MAJ (pbuh) often faced a hostile Muslim clergy.

Regards

Majumdar,

"I am blaming him for overlooking the killings by the Moplahs, not for the Moplahs actual act of killing."

It was not the case of Muslims killing Hindus but a case of proletariats killing landlords. It was an uprising that was similar to Subash Chandra Bose's violence. Would Subash Bose have of thought of taking to weapons if the British had allowed us to live with dignity and opportunities?

Majumdarda,

It's a lie that SVP had majority support. Right wingers like him for his anti-Jinnah stance. That way I too lke him but he's not a PM material. JLN's a statesman.

Re: # 29
Vengat...

Ans: How can a peasants movement turns out to be Jihad? The Moplas had declared the land as part of Khalifa. Is that something to do with land rights to the farmers?
Budhdhism and Jainism incorporated in Indian value system, much before Gandhi. The vaisnav movement is the melting pot between Budhdhism and Sanatan Dharma. There is no point bringing Gandhi into this picture...

Vengat Garu,

This is what Annie Besant had to say about the Moplahs.

"They Moplahs murdered and plundered abundantly, and killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatise. Somewhere about a lakh (100,000) of people were driven from their homes with nothing but their clothes they had on, stripped of everything...Malabar has taught us what Islamic rule still means, and we do not want to see another specimen of the Khilafat Raj in India."

And no Ms. Besant had no links with the Bajrang Dal.

(and the killings of Buddhists doesn't come to our mind?)

To the best of my knowledge only Pushyamitra Sunga and Shashank of Gauda have been known to have persecuted Buddhists. Can you show an authentic source to prove widespread violence against Buddhists?

Regards

#25 by majumdar

No. I have criticised him for his hypocritical stand in calling for the Partition of India but opposing the partition of Punjab and Bengal.

Thanks Majumdar bhai for clearing that up. Obviously, I must have been mistaken. Apologies!

But he is undoubtedly Islam's greatest leader since the Prophet himself.

It is unfortunate that many stalwarts like Saladin etc. fail to find mention but a man who divided India finds a place just behind the prophet :-)

Mind you, my beef is not so much against the division as the manner in which it was achieved; by driving a permanent wedge between Hindus and Muslims.

Re: # 27
NKG,

Moplah violence started when the Hindu landlords denied the Moplah's the lands they were tilling.

Hinduism was once an equally, if not more, gory religion. Why is that Shaivites Vs Vaisnavites and the killings of Buddhists doesn't come to our mind? It doesn't occur to us because Gandhi repositioned and branded Hinduism in a different plane from other violent religions. We have accepted to see Hinduism as a non-violent religion and all credit to the Mahatma.

But for him we would have been butchering on intra and inter religious premises.

Vengat Garu,

Moplah wasn't Gandhi's creation as Majumdar et al want us to believe.

You dont read me properly and then put words in my mouth. Kindly read what I wrote to Harishbhai in 18.

I am blaming him for overlooking the killings by the Moplahs, not for the Moplahs actual act of killing.

(he had no chance of knowing what would have been good for Muslims. )

Or Hindoos either.

(Perhaps he too was confused )

Yes.

I am glad that Vengat Garu agrees that:

MKG was an ignoramus.
MKG was a confused person.

Regards

(Harishbhai thanks for showing me how to paste in bold!!!)

NKG,

Moplah wasn't Gandhi's creation as Majumdar et al want us to believe. Gandhi was no authority over Muslims and he had no chance of knowing what would have been good for Muslims. Perhaps he too was confused like our own Eklavya who seems to understand Muslims as belonging to a system different from Maslow's hierarchy.

VRV,

Unlike Yasser mian I dont keep notes very well but if I can get a reference I will surely post it.

Regards

Harishbhai,

(Are you saying Jinnah was the perfect human being?)

No. I have criticised him for his hypocritical stand in calling for the Partition of India but opposing the partition of Punjab and Bengal. I have criticised him for his short-sighted and opportunistic policies on the princely states (and so incidentally has Mr. Noorani) which ultimately cost Pakistan Kashmir.

But he is undoubtedly Islam's greatest leader since the Prophet himself.

(except the very man who raised such a foolish demand. )

I do not consider the Partition a foolish demand to begin with so I can't comment on your observations.

Regards

23,

Majumdarda,

Can u show me a reference where 'majority of MPs supported SVP' was evidenced?

As for the comment on condolences, it's self-evident.

As for rearends, it's all over the UP.

VRV,

SVP enjoyed majority support from INC MPs and should have been allowed to become PM. Instead MKG opted for JLN for no rhyme or reason.

(word of condolence became a ridicule that Ekalavya and u want us to die)

When did Kaal bhai or I say that. We merely wanted peace for the soul of the great Gandhian leaders of India.

(Instead offer rearends to enemies. )

Who offered his rear end to his enemies?

Regards

#18 by majumdar

OK Majumdar bhai, so Gandhi made mistakes. Are you saying Jinnah was the perfect human being?

Despite numerous mistakes (prominent but not the only one among them being the partition and DAD), he continues to be the object of your affection while you deflect blame on to everyone (the British, Congress, JLN, Gandhi) except the very man who raised such a foolish demand.

18 Majumdarda,

"I am blaming him for imposing the ga**** JLN as India's first PM overlooking SVP."

U mean to say that SVP was popular than JLN? It sounds like Devilal was popular than VP Singh. Lol!

++

Gandhi was too foolhardy to be a leader who commands followers. He's inspirational and following came on its own.

Niramla di died and a word of condolence became a ridicule that Ekalavya and u want us to die. :((

Many of the Godseists want nothing but revenge but have no balls (esp Ek) to face ur enemies. Instead offer rearends to enemies. Is there a word in psychology for this trait? Lemme find out. :)

Is there any Gandhi Asram in UrdoooLand/PakiStan? Gandhi was very fond of Urdooo dialect and Urdooo people....
Vengat Anna,let us take up Gandhism and start another Moplah style revolution in India, ahimsa for Indians and bloodbath for moslems....

Re: # 14
Vengat...

Not bad idea, but not for Siiree Raaaaaaaaammmmmmmmm...

It should start with Tamilnadu ( http://www.maduraimeenakshi.org) and Karnataka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampi)

Harishbhai

I am not blaming MKG for his follower's doings. I am blaming him for his own misdeeds:

I am blaming him for overlooking the killings by the Moplahs, not for the Moplahs actual act of killing.
I am blaming him for cheerfuly accepting Johar's comments on debased Momins being better than virtuous Hindoos.
I am blaming him for his utopian ideals.
I am blaming him for imposing the ga**** JLN as India's first PM overlooking SVP.

Regards

#15 by majumdar

1. We disarm our army.
2. When Pakis slap our left cheek (come asking for J&K) we give them our right cheek (NE) to them too.
3. We accept the right of neo-Moplahs and assorted fundoos to slaughter Hindoos.
4. We accept the right of neo-Moplahs and assorted fundoos to impose their obscurantist views on their fellow Muslims and scupper any chances they may have to come to terms with modernity.
5 We accept that the most debased of Muslim is superior in character to the most virtuous of Hindoos.
6. We oppose birth control.

Majumdar bhai, you're creating a strawman and then using it to beat up on Gandhi. You are ready to give Jinnah the benefit of doubt when it comes to some of his followers' doings (re. the DAD and the lack of proper democracy in Pakistan), yet you do not hesitate to blame Gandhi for what his "followers" did.

Granted some of Gandhi's notions were highly utopian and even unrealistic (disbanding the army, reliance on nature cure etc.), but you must give credit where it is due.

Harishbhai,

All the best to our Verkottey Vilayeti friends!!!

Regards

Harishbhai,

(Gandhians seem to be going great "guns" in Jinnah land.)

I have always been optimistic about Pak's future. Maybe I need to reconsider now....

Vengat Garu,

(Let Gandhianism die)

Maybe we can give Gandhianism another chance.

1. We disarm our army.
2. When Pakis slap our left cheek (come asking for J&K) we give them our right cheek (NE) to them too.
3. We accept the right of neo-Moplahs and assorted fundoos to slaughter Hindoos.
4. We accept the right of neo-Moplahs and assorted fundoos to impose their obscurantist views on their fellow Muslims and scupper any chances they may have to come to terms with modernity.
5 We accept that the most debased of Muslim is superior in character to the most virtuous of Hindoos.
6. We oppose birth control.

Regards

Let Gandhianism die...then we can demolish a few more masjids and we can stage a few more Godhras without guilty pangs...

Jai Siireee Raaaaammmm (spit pan wallah icon with a red ribbon on the forehead).....Now we are part of the brigade, let us grope women (muslims better) on the road now...nobody would dare to ask us anything...

An excerpt for Majumdar bhai:

"Al Qaeda and Taliban militants have the upper hand in these Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), where the region's colonial-era rules limit the new government's authority.

The job of overcoming these obstacles has largely fallen to the overlooked member of Pakistan's new ruling coalition, the Awami National Party (ANP). As Pashtuns, the ANP can talk to the Taliban as ethnic brothers. Yet as disciples of the nonviolence espoused by its late founder, Abdul Ghaffar Khan – the so-called "Frontier Gandhi" and follower of the Mahatma – the ANP is uniquely qualified to attempt peacemaking."

#11 by majumdar

Gandhianism will die with them.

Majumdar bhai, you're mistaken. Gandhians seem to be going great "guns" in Jinnah land. Read on:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0505/p06s01-wosc.html

Nkg,

(I wonder what will happen to the Gandhism, after these people die.)

Gandhianism will die with them.

(Are the getting new followers.)

Nope. Bjkumar was the last convert.

Regards

I wonder what will happen to the Gandhism, after these people die. Are the getting new followers.

Re: # 6: A true eulogy would be if a Pakistanis donate money to help Jagdeesh Kumar's family who was brutally murdered few week ago. Actions always speak louder than any thing else.

Kaal bhai,

May her great soul, and the soul of all such great Gandhians throughout India, rest in eternal peace.

I second that.

Regards

May her great soul, and the soul of all such great Gandhians throughout India, rest in eternal peace.

Eminent Pakistani social worker Abdul Sattar Edhi on Thursday condoled the death of Indian parliamentarian and veteran Gandhian Nirmala Deshpande, saying she had played a key role in promoting Indo-Pak ties.

In a message, Edhi and his wife Bilquis Edhi expressed grief and sorrow at the death of 80-year-old Deshpande, who died in her sleep early Thursday in New Delhi.

Noting that Deshpande was a pioneer in the independence movement along with Mahatma Gandhi, the couple said she had "played a vital role in promoting India-Pakistan friendship".

Bilquis Edhi said Deshpande had been impressed by her husband's social work and had been translating his biography into Hindi.

Her death had created a void in India and Pakistan and she would miss a "humanity loving friend", Bilquis said in her message.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/001200805011269.htm

The Passing Of Nirmala Deshpande

By Mirza A. Beg

http://www.countercurrents.org/beg020508.htm

Nirmala Deshpande, 79, a veteran Gandhian, died in her sleep at her home in Delhi, Thursday morning. It is natural to mourn the passing of a dear friend. Though I did not know her personally, I mourn her passing as if she was a close friend. We knew of her great sacrifice and struggle to keep the flame of humanity and justice alive against powerful winds of hatred and strife around the world, particularly in her homeland, India, the land of Gandhi.

Her being was a source of strength to many who saw and felt her piety. Many took sustenance from her selfless work for the downtrodden and marginalized in a fast changing society, where sectarianism has become entrenched in the halls of power. In that respect she became a dear friend to all who cared. To them she was popularly known as "Didi" (respected elder sister in Hindi).

Her passing is particularly sad, because she was a great soul. She was seventy-nine years old and no one has defied the law of nature to live forever. Her life was a beacon and her death should be a time of reflection. People like her are a gift to humanity by the providence. Fortunately humanity continues to produce people like her in every generation to carry the torch of humane concerns. Democracies, though imperfect, provide secular saints such as Nirmala Deshpande a modicum of sustenance to nudge the conscience of many to uphold the values we often preach, but do not practice.

All freedom and justice-loving Indians loved and respected her. Muslims, Christians and untouchables in India are especially indebted to this frail woman born in a Brahmin family, for her tireless efforts against discrimination and marginalization. Her fearless stand rallied many Indians against the pogrom carried out by the fascistic provincial government of Gujarat against Muslims in 2002, in which about 2,000 Muslims were brutally burned and massacred.

She saw the tyranny of governments cloaked in crass nationalism, used as an excuse to foster hatred. She tried to bring the peoples of India and Pakistan, former brothers, now contentious neighbors, towards understanding and amity. She knew that constitutional safeguards work only when the majority community considers it a duty to protect the minority rights. Therefore she took up the cause of marginalized minorities in India.

In her memory, Muslims all over the world, especially in India and Pakistan, owe it to Islam and humanity to convince the Muslim majorities in all countries to protect the rights of minorities. Thoughtful Muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh have found their voices in Nirmala's Gandhian tradition to speak up for Hindu and Christian minorities. Their rights have been violated by some out of visceral hatred or financial gains, especially resulting from seemingly good, though egregious blasphemy laws.

Protecting the minorities is a test of civilization. It protects the rights of all. Looking the other way or ignoring small violations of human rights leads to greater discrimination and injustice.

She adhered to the best of the creeds that humanity offers. Widely known as a Gandhian, she was able to carry the torch of Gandhi Ji's ideals at a time when Gandhi Ji's name is reviled by a large section of Indian polity or at best is used only for ceremonial purposes by those who profit from his name, but consider his ideology and humanity to be impractical or at best, quaint.

Of course the Gandhian path that Nirmala Deshpandey traveled is difficult to follow. Gandhi Ji did not live an easy or opulent life. It is certainly much more difficult than succumbing to self interest in the pursuit of wealth and political power to the detriment of the weaker sections of the society.

Humanity has innate potential to rise above its selfish baser instincts, but only a few harness it to help lead their people towards a better tomorrow. She lived in the tradition of the great conscience keepers of their nations.

Mirza A. Beg writings are available at http://mirzasmusings.blogspot.com/

Nirmila Deshpande, a well known peace crusader of India, died on May 1, 2008, after a long period of illness. She was 79-years-old and left behind so many followers who like her, wanted peace.

http://www.mynews.in/fullstory.aspx?storyid=4462

From her early years she was a Gandhian and an enlightened person whose only aim in life was to work for the cause of humanity. Nirmila was the one by whose efforts the bus service between different cities of India and Pakistan particularly, between the Kashmiri people of both sides, were started.



She worked extensively all her life for peace among various religious and linguistic communities in India and to achieve this cause she undertook a 40,000-km padyatra (long march) across India to carry Mahatma Gandhi'''s message of Gram Swaraj. She firmly believed that although it was difficult to practice Gandhian principles, it was the only way towards a truly democratic society.

At the time of her death she was Chairperson of the Pakistan India People's Forum for Peace and Democracy, an organization with chapters all over India and Pakistan that works for peace in the region.

For peace in South Asia, she worked hard, particularly for a people to people dialogue between India and Pakistan and also between different countries of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation, (SAARC).



The Asian Human Rights Commission expressing condolence over her death said that the South Asia has lost a great crusader of peace.



She remained closely associated with a very large number of diverse, dedicated and committed social and cultural organizations, a few prominent ones being the Indo-Pak Soldiers' Initiative for Peace (I.P.S.I.), Harijan Sevak Sangh (H.S.S.) and Association of Peoples of Asia (A.P.A.). The Peoples' Integration Council was one such association that was very dear to her heart which she had personally nurtured to mobilize all sections of the society for national integration and communal harmony and which led a Satyagraha on the Indo-Tibet border.



This was done in 1997 along with organising and participating in conferences, seminars and marches for the cause of Tibet and Burma. Akhil Bharat Rachnatmak Samaj (A.B.R.S.) was another one of her very close groups which has thousands of dedicated social activists committed to peace and non-violence, working in all parts of India.

Nirmila Deshpande was known as Didi (elder sister) all over South Asia and other parts of Asia. She was member of the Rajia Sabha (Upper House) and she was elected twice for its membership. She got three honorary doctorate degrees from different universities.



Didi was the writer of several books including novels, dramas and travelogues. The books written by her include, her memoirs of the days she spent with Vinoba Bhave (published in four languages- Hindi, Marathi, Telugu and Gujarati). Another book she wrote was about the life and times of Vinoba Bhave (titled Vinoba, again in four languages Marathi, Hindi, English and Gujarati) and one on Gandhi and his ideology named Sewagram te Sewagram in Marathi. In addition she also edited a Hindi fortnightly, Nityanutan and a journal Maitri on service and spirituality.

She was awarded on so many occasions by so many organizations that she had herself lost count of them. A few very prominent ones include the Rajiv Gandhi National Sadbhavana Award and the Padma Vibhushan, India's second highest citizen's award.

Didi will be remembered for her time as a peace crusader in a region which is on the verge of self destruction by racing to acquire nuclear arms over the importance of feeding millions of poverty ridden people.

'Didi' departs



Saturday, May 03, 2008
Scores of people across Pakistan have been mourning the death, in her New Delhi home, of peace activist Nirmala Deshpande. Known as 'Didi' to almost all who knew her, Deshpande, aged 79, had campaigned tirelessly for peace between Pakistan and India. She had travelled many times to Pakistan, always promoting her Gandhian ideal of peaceful co-existence. Her unflinching optimism, even at the worst of times, offered hope and a sense of direction on many occasions. It was this spirit which played a key role in establishing the vibrant peace movement that today exists on both sides of the border. It was as such fitting that a wreath from the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi was proudly displayed on her coffin, while condolence messages have poured in from Pakistan, as of course from within India, to her family. President Pervez Musharraf is among those expressing their condolences. Nirmala Didi departs at a time when there is still a great deal to be done in terms of building ties between Pakistan and India. The greater cooperation of the past few years has helped demolish some of the obstacles that prevent this. But many others remain in place. As Deshpande herself said on more than one occasion, the key to building peace is to enable and allow people to meet freely. Sadly, tight visa restrictions still prevent the people of India and Pakistan from moving closer to each other and in the process proving untrue the myths that have been constructed regarding the other country. People across the subcontinent must play a part in ensuring such hurdles are overcome and friendship is established, for in this lies the welfare of everyone in the region.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=110237

Nirmala Deshpande (1929-2008)

Pakistanis recall Nirmala Deshpande as a great humanist with a worldview which completely excluded partisanship in the Indo-Pakistan rivalry in the region. Her demise has saddened many because she championed the cause of the minorities neglected by states. Many Pakistanis will be individually bereaved because she went out of her way when they needed help in India.

Out of respect for her stature as a social worker, Deshpande was made a member of the Rajiya Sabha, the upper house of the parliament in India, in 1997, and she was also considered for the post of president of the republic, which ultimately went to another lady, Pratibha Patil. Unmarried under a vow of service, she was nominated for the 2005 Peace Prize on the basis of her services to India’s underprivileged and the minorities. Deshpande was also known to be the spirit behind the peace marches in Punjab and Kashmir when violence was at its peak in these regions. Her peace mission to Kashmir in 1994 and her initiative to organise an India-Pakistan meeting of citizens across the Lahore border in 1996 were some of her major achievements. We will miss her patronage of worthy causes and generosity of spirit.


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C05%5C04%5Cstory_4-5-2 008_pg3_1

May Her Soul Rest in Peace.