I Spy Hindutva

Re: # 136
@ nkg

Please refer to Re: # 25

Vaibhab,
You can derive positive energy or negative energy from looking back to your history. The saffronisation (so called) does not create negative energy ( destructive) like Islam creates amongst muslims. You will find large number of mosques and madressahs associated with terrorist activities accross the world.
Positive energy can be brought with proper history.R K Mission, Satya Sai Institute, Arya Samaj, Mata Amritanandamayee have demonstrated that in India. I am sure, they provide one of the best academic environment in India. ISKCON, Art of Living, R K Mission serves people worldwide.

Harishbhai,

I think I framed my words badly. What I meant was that I had never abused any chowkie on chowk. So with suitable amendments #124 stands.

Regards

#130 by majumdar

Bhoots (esp of undesirable people) ain't allowed to become chowk members.

There you go Majumdar bhai! See, it took just a couple of posts for you to do the exact opposite of what you were saying earlier :-P

Re: # 107
Sanatani, Vengat...
"Also if we have to fight this sort of casteism (I believe in caste but not caste pride and esp not one that is detrimental to any other caste) it has to be done by religous or cultural groups and not by so-called progressives."

Ans: The very purpose of caste is not applicable now. So, the caste identity should be abolished. I prefer the way South Indians represents themselves. Name+Father Name+Village Name. This is very good. Some caste groups are now in socially disadvantegious position. Special positive discrimination should be provided to them such that they can compete in all sphere of life they wish.
I Bengal, caste system has become irrelevant. The brahmins enjoys no special status for being a brahmin.

Re: # 57
Ahmedmadani...
Tata to invest in Bd...

Ans: This is nice opinion Mr. Ahmedmadani. China and Pakistan had opposed the very concept of a country called Bangladesh and right to use their mothertongue. And Bangladesh should promote Chinese and Pakistani companies!!!

Re: # 105
Sanatani..

Problem with RSS...
Ans: RSS has no problem. It sometimes try to create uniform Indian identity, which is mostly Ram centric. Lord Ram do not have pan-Indian appeal.So, outside cow belt. It is very thin. Dalits and SCs were kept out of any religious activities. So, they are also not keen to join RSS (though RSS new feels the need to include them enmass).

Harishbhai,

Bhoots (esp of undesirable people) ain't allowed to become chowk members.

Regards

Re: # 128

Majumdar,

See Harish ...He's pushed you to a tight corner...LOL

#124 by majumdar

To tell you the truth I dont think I have abused anyone on chowk (hopefully).

Majumdar bhai, Bapuji is asking if he isn't a part of Chowk? ;-)

Vengy Garu,

Err... yes. But with so many multi nics sprouting all over the place mainly with the object of abusing people and derailing discussions, thought best to clarify matters.

Regards

Re: # 124

Maju Anna,

I know you haven't abused anybody on chowk...It was for fun...

Re: # 114
There is nothing monolithic in Sanatan dharma. I am sure, the prohibited list defers from region to region and sage to sage.

Vengy Garu,

(Dint see you for a few days or you were on another nic abusing me? )

On weekends I dont appear on chowk 'cos my wife does not approve of chowking. Mon and Tues I was away on an official trip.

No I haven't been abusing you with another nic. To tell you the truth I dont think I have abused anyone on chowk (hopefully).

Regards

Re: # 120

The copy/paste is not for Eklavya's consumption...

Re: # 104
@ Ananth07

well, each to his view.
Personally, I find Girilalji's scope of ethnicity and culture quite baffling.
But his writing basically highlights one of the main ideological agendas of Hindutva; that of needlessly drawing inspiration from archaic events/stories/notions and neglecting/misrepresenting immediate history.

Re: # 120

Maju Anna,

I thought you've been banned from writing on chowk...:) Dint see you for a few days or you were on another nic abusing me?

Vengy Garu,

Kaal bhai knows all 'bout Charvaka and his concept of materialism. If I am not mistaken he has already posted on the concept on chowk.

Regards

Re: # 114; 'O' mighty Eklavya

No concept will stand the test of time, however relevant it appears to be at a certain point of time. You may not be comfortable with the term 'Muslim Atheist' but you would have to accept and reconcile with Hindu atheism. Though I haven't studied Carvaka's Lokayata, I can fairly guess what it could be.

I am sorry for the copy/paste:


From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%81rv%C4%81ka

CÄ?rvÄ?ka
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For the village in Kyrgyzstan, see Charbak, Kyrgyzstan.
CÄ?rvÄ?ka is a system of Indian philosophy that assumed various forms of philosophical skepticism and religious indifference.[1] It is also known as LokÄ?yata. It is named after its founder, CÄ?rvÄ?ka, author of the BÄ?rhaspatya-sÅ«tras.[2]

In overviews of Indian philosophy, CÄ?rvÄ?ka is classified as a "heterodox" (nÄ?stika) system, the same classification as is given to Buddhism and Jainism.[3][4] It is characterized as a materialistic and atheistic school of thought. While this branch of Indian philosophy is not considered to be part of the six orthodox schools of Hinduism, it is noteworthy as evidence of a materialistic movement within Hinduism.[5]

Contents [hide]
1 Name and origins
2 Loss of original works
3 Madhavacharya and CÄ?rvÄ?ka system
3.1 Quotations attributed to CÄ?rvÄ?ka from Sarva-Darsana-Sangraha
4 Tattvopaplavasimha of Jayaraasi Bhatta
5 Astika schools, Buddhism, and Jainism versus CÄ?rvÄ?ka
6 Abul Fazl on Lokayata
7 See also
8 Notes
9 Bibliography
10 External links



[edit] Name and origins
The name LokÄ?yata can be traced to Kautilya's Arthashastra, which refers to three Ä?nvÄ«ká¹£ikÄ«s (logical philosophies), Yoga, Samkhya and Lokayata. Lokayata here still refers to logical debate (disputatio, "criticism") in general and not to a materialist doctrine in particular. Similarly, Saddaniti and Buddhaghosa in the 5th century connect the "Lokayatas" with the Vitandas (sophists).

Only from about the 6th century is the term restricted to the school of the LokyÄ?tikas. The name CÄ?rvÄ?ka is first used in the 7th century by the philosopher Purandara, who refers to his fellow materialists as "the CÄ?rvÄ?kas", and it is used by the 8th century philosophers Kamalaśīla and Haribhadra. Shankara, on the other hand, always uses LokÄ?yata, not CÄ?rvÄ?ka.[6]

E. W. Hopkins, in his The Ethics of India (1924) assumes that CÄ?rvÄ?ka philosophy is co-eval with Buddhism, mentioning "the old CÄ?rvÄ?ka or materialist of the 6th century BC"; Rhys Davids assumes that lokayata in ca. 500 BC came to mean "scepticism" in general without yet being organized as a philosophical school, and that the name of a villain of the Mahabharata, CÄ?rvÄ?ka, was attached to the position in order to disparage it. The earliest positive statement of skepticism is preserved from the epic period, in the Ramayana.

regard only that which is an object of perception, and cast behind your back whatever is beyond the reach of your senses (2.108)
The CÄ?rvÄ?ka school thus appears to have gradually grown out of generic skepticism in the Mauryan period, but its existence as an organized body cannot be ascertained for times predating the 6th century. The Barhaspatya sutras were likely also composed in Mauryan times, predating 150 BC, based on a reference in the Mahabhasya of Patanjali (7.3.45).[7]


[edit] Loss of original works
Main article: Barhaspatya sutras
Chatterjee and Datta explain that our understanding of CÄ?rvÄ?ka philosophy is fragmentary, based largely on criticism of the ideas by other schools, and that it is not a living tradition:

"Though materialism in some form or other has always been present in India, and occasional references are found in the Vedas, the Buddhistic literature, the Epics, as well as in the later philosophical works we do not find any systematic work on materialism, nor any organised school of followers as the other philosophical schools possess. But almost every work of the other schools states, for refutation, the materialistic views. Our knowledge of Indian materialism is chiefly based on these."[8]

Available evidence suggests that CÄ?rvÄ?ka philosophy was set out in the Barhaspatya sutras, probably in Mauryan times. Neither this text nor any other original text of the CÄ?rvÄ?ka school of philosophy has been preserved. Its principal works are known only from fragments cited by its Hindu and Buddhist opponents. CÄ?rvÄ?ka philosophy appears to have died out some time in the 15th century.

Countering the argument that the CÄ?rvÄ?kas opposed all that was good in the Vedic tradition, Dale Riepe says, "It may be said from the available material that CÄ?rvÄ?kas hold truth, integrity, consistency, and freedom of thought in the highest esteem."[9]


[edit] Madhavacharya and CÄ?rvÄ?ka system
Madhavacharya, the 13th & 14th-century Vedantic philosopher from South India starts his famous work The Sarva-darsana-sangraha with a chapter on the CÄ?rvÄ?ka system with the intention of refuting it. After invoking, in the Prologue of the book, the Hindu gods Shiva and Vishnu, ("by whom the earth and rest were produced"), Madhavacharya asks, in the first chapter:

...but how can we attribute to the Divine Being the giving of supreme felicity, when such a notion has been utterly abolished by Charvaka, the crest-gem of the atheistic school, the follower of the doctrine of Brihaspati? The efforts of Charvaka are indeed hard to be eradicated, for the majority of living beings hold by the current refrain:
While life is yours, live joyously;
None can escape Death's searching eye:
When once this frame of ours they burn,
How shall it e'er again return?

[edit] Quotations attributed to CÄ?rvÄ?ka from Sarva-Darsana-Sangraha
The Agnihotra, the three Vedas, the ascetic's three staves, and smearing oneself with ashes —
Brihaspati says, these are but means of livelihood for those who have no manliness nor sense.
In this school there are four elements, earth, water, fire and air;
and from these four elements alone is intelligence produced —
just like the intoxicating power from kinwa &c, mixed together;
since in "I am fat", "I am lean", these attributes abide in the same subject,
and since fatness, &c, reside only in the body, it alone is the soul and no other,
and such phrases as "my body" are only significant metaphorically.
If a beast slain in the Jyothishtoma rite will itself go to heaven,
why then does not the sacrificer forthwith offer his own father?
If the Sraddha produces gratification to beings who are dead,
then why not give food down below to those who are standing on the house-top?
If he who departs from the body goes to another world,
how is it that he come not back again, restless for love of his kindred?
Hence it is only as a means of livelihood that Brahmans have established here
all these ceremonies for the dead, — there is no other fruit anywhere.
The three authors of the Vedas were buffoons, knaves, and demons.
All the well-known formulae of the pandits, jarphari, turphari, etc.
and all the obscene rites for the queen commanded in Aswamedha,
these were invented by buffoons, and so all the various kinds of presents to the priests,
while the eating of flesh was similarly commanded by night-prowling demons.
[10]

Those parts which survive indicate a strong anti-clerical bias, accusing Brahmins of fostering religious beliefs only so they could obtain a livelihood. The proper aim of a Charvakan or Charvaka, according to these sources, was to live a prosperous, happy, and productive life in this world.


[edit] Tattvopaplavasimha of Jayaraasi Bhatta
Main article: Jayarashi Bhatta
The Tattvopaplavasimha of Jayarashi Bhatta (ca. 8th century) is often cited as the only extant authentic CÄ?rvÄ?ka text, but which also shows Madhyamaka influence. It is, in any case, among the most important documents for the study of the CÄ?rvÄ?ka school.


[edit] Astika schools, Buddhism, and Jainism versus CÄ?rvÄ?ka
CÄ?rvÄ?kas cultivated a philosophy wherein theology and what they called "speculative metaphysics" were to be avoided. The CÄ?rvÄ?kas accepted direct perception as the surest method to prove the truth of anything. Though their opponents tried to caricature the Lokayatikas' arguments, the latter did not completely reject the method of inference. Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya quotes S. N. Dasgupta:

"Purandara (a Lokayata philosopher) [...] admits the usefulness of inference in determining the nature of all worldly things where perceptual experience is available; but inference cannot be employed for establishing any dogma regarding the transcendental world, or life after death or the law of karma which cannot be available to ordinary perceptual experience."[11]
A CÄ?rvÄ?ka's thought is characterised by an insistence on joyful living, whereas Buddhism and Jainism are known to emphasise penance. Enjoyment of life in a tempered manner, much like the Epicureans of Greece, was the CÄ?rvÄ?kas' primary modus operandi.

The CÄ?rvÄ?kas did not deny the difference between the dead and the living and recognized both as realities. A person lives, the same person dies: that is a perceived, and hence the only provable, fact. In this regard, the CÄ?rvÄ?kas found themselves at odds with all the other religions of the time. Of the five fundamental elements, the Panchamahaabhutas, Prithvi (earth or solidity), jal (water or liquidity), agni (fire or fieriness or brightness), vaayu (wind or movement), and aakaasha (aether or emptiness), the CÄ?rvÄ?kas recognised the validity of only the first four and thought that a combination of these four elements produced a certain vitality called life.

Rejection of the soul as separate from the body led the CÄ?rvÄ?kas to confine their thinking to this world only. This does not mean that they denied the cause-effect relationship. They accepted the "like causes like result" (Karmavipaaka) rule, restricted it to this life and this world and admitted exceptions to that rule.

Whereas most systems of Astika philosophy advocated a caste system, the CÄ?rvÄ?kas denounced the caste system, calling it artificial, unreal and hence unacceptable. "What is this senseless humbug about the castes and the high and low among them when the organs like the mouth, etc in the human body are the same?"[12]

The CÄ?rvÄ?ka scholars carried on research, termed Aanvikshiki, into every branch of knowledge and developed it elaborately. It is possible that they also observed and kept records of the historical supernovae, which the Chinese, the Incas and Mayans and all other ancient civilizations did, as per records left to posterity in the form of astrological writings (Chinese) and cave paintings (Incas and Mayans). However, the Indian records have not yet come to light, perhaps due to the predominance of oral tradition in India, liable to easy distortion. More probably, any records have been destroyed by the CÄ?rvÄ?kas' opponents.[13]


[edit] Abul Fazl on Lokayata
Ain-i-Akbari, written by Abul Fazl, the famous historian of Akbar's court, mentions a symposium of philosophers of all faiths held in 1578 at Akbar's insistence. Some CÄ?rvÄ?ka thinkers are said to have participated in this symposium.[14]

Under the heading "Nastika," Abul Fazl has referred to the good work, judicious administration, and welfare schemes that were emphasized by the CÄ?rvÄ?ka lawmakers. Somadeva has also mentioned the CÄ?rvÄ?ka method of defeating the enemies of the nation. However, the so called peasant religions or opinions never told that you should not live happily, rather they said that the means of happiness is giving up which goes in contradiction to carvaka, who said the material pleasure are enough to give happiness to the material body.

Re: # 99
@ KaalChakra

I completely agree.
I was being sarcastic when referring to Golwalker.

akcheema #97 {"I have no issues with you and would like to keep it that way, if it is all the same to you."}

Cheema Sahib,
I have no issues with you either, and in fact have enjoyed reading several of your posts and anecdotes. You have every right to your points of view and every right to express them, my friend.
As for me, I have never been a "tableeghi" type of missionary and do not enjoy giving or receiving lectures on religion, God, faith, or righteousness. My belief in God and the Holy Prophet (PUBH) is a personal matter that makes sense to me. I only discuss it when it comes under attack by those trying to ridicule me or insult me by using profanity against those I consider sacred.

I don't mind discussing "atheism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity," or any other lighthouse of absolute truth in an academic setting. My comments against alcohol and so-called aggressive "atheists," were directed at one implacable megalomaniac who persists in trying to hurt Muslims by using the most profane rhetoric against the Holy Prophet (PBUH). I strongly support true atheists in their God-given right to believe in the absolute absence of a Supreme Being. I look forward to polite and interesting discussions with you.

#96 Posted by mistaken_enigma on May 12, 2008 3:17:58 pm
Re: # 95
@ Selim_Chauhan ji
...Are you related to Salim_Chauhan by any means ? "}

Vaibhav,
Yes, Selim is the Turkish spelling of Salim. OTOH, there is an annoying imposter named "Saleem_Chauhan" who is stalking me lately with profanity, lewd comments, and general behavior resembling a Paindoo. Please ignore him as I do.

The downside of being an atheist is that ... you have no one to talk to when you are getting a blowjob.

Sorry for the digression; let's get back to bashing hindutvas and kaal's in-laws.

vengat, the question is of the use of language, and of use of important concepts in ways that remain understandable to others.

Suppose Hinduism had an absolute requirement - all Hindus must worship a black-reared chihuahua by offering it freshly caught sea-water fish three times a day.

Now comes a person who says he or she hates chichuhuas, is out to save sea-water fish, and certainly doesn't wish to see the two together.

Yet such a person wants to be a called a Hindu on the strength of freedom of expression.

This misuse of human language will destroy any social discourse using such concepts as Hindu or Hinduism.

Language is not an individual's creation. It is a social tool, collectively created and inter-subjectively understood. Individuals can have only so much liberty with distorting it before they begin to exact unacceptable cost from others.

Ref Sanatani #106

[But sorry to say (it is of course second hand info told by a friend) from what I have heard in TN in either the Vanniyar or the Thevar belt to do so would be suicide.]

But you should read "The Anti-Hindu" and read between the lines.

Recently, in a village called Uthapuram, a wall dividing the dalits from the rest of the village was demolished.

The Anti-Hindu consistently called the non-Dalits as "Upper Castes".

They are not "Upper Castes" in the Mandal Commission sense.

They are OBCs for which our politicians are carrying water in the form of 27% reservation.

But you wouldn't know that if you read the Anti-Hindu or any other newspaper in India.

Inscription on an actual tombstone: "Here Lies an Athiest. All wraped up and nowhere to go".

This may be irrelevant to the highly charged discussion going on here but I thought it'd be nice to throw in.

Eklavya,

For an atheist, even if he is a Muslim, he will not be worried about semantics. Call him an apostate, he will say, "exactly".

It requires more courage and conviction to be a Muslim apostate than a Hindu one...and lots of reasoning ability too...

Believers know that if you call an atheist an apostate then it would mean a far damaging contrasting truth they would have to confront with.

"it has to be done by religous or cultural groups and not by so-called progressives."

I have no problem in the religious or cultural groups fighting the casteism, once they start doing it the so called progressives would keep quite. Happy now?

Thevar side suffered most of the casualties and many don't openly admit to the truth.

Re: # 107
"I believe in caste but not caste pride and esp not one that is detrimental to any other caste"

Sanatani,

I think I share this.We need the caste system but not the vertical arrangement and no caste should equate to any particular profession.

Vanniyars and Thevars are glorified inappropriately. I think in todays Tamilnadu, nobody would dare to prick the dalit pride. Dalits have nothing to lose vis-a-vis thevars and vanniyars. Tamil dalits cannot be subjugated by violence like their 'rest-of-india' counterparts. Its been quite some time since the last major caste violence took place. It was between the dalits and the rest of the castes with thevars leading in front. Thevars' side suffered most of the casualties and many don't openly admits to the truth.

Also if we have to fight this sort of casteism (I believe in caste but not caste pride and esp not one that is detrimental to any other caste) it has to be done by religous or cultural groups and not by so-called progressives.

But unfortunately Hindus never understand enlightned self interest.

Sanatani

Re: # 102

Vengat,

For a commie sometimes you do speak the truth.

It reminds me of a trip to a village in west UP when I told the Brahmins. Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars there that well as an outsider I saw no difference in their hygeine level and that of the Chamars and other Dalits in that village with the exception that the Dalits at least did a lot to clean up will they only spread dirt and if the Chamars were untouchables so were they in my eyes.

It nearly got me lynched but the message went home. The marriage dinner was eaten with the Dalits also sitting down with all in the same line instead of 2 rows back except they had to lift and clean their plates after the same.

But it was profoundly enlightening to one's thought process. Why I did not get lynched and why were they allowed to sit down. That was because there was some groundswell of support for such a move amongst the locals but lacked courage to do so openly, when I acted as a catalyst they coalesced behind me.

But sorry to say (it is of course second hand info told by a friend) from what I have heard in TN in either the Vanniyar or the Thevar belt to do so would be suicide.

Santani

Re: # 103

Thanks for your delving on atheists. Do tell us Saab if you have come across carnages in the name of atheism.

Specifically the slaughter of Orthodox priests by Commies in Russia in 1917. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

Specifically the slaughter of Buddisht and Taoist monks by Mao. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

Specifically the slaughter of Buddisht monks and Hindu Priests by Pol Pot. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

Specifically the slaughter of Anand Margis by the CPM. Of course they were counter revolutionaries so it does not matter.

In fact so long as the first 3 of the 4M's slaughter people there is no problem with the 4thM.

The problem with Hindutva is the RSS and its failure to define a coherent ideology. Maybe we should convert all Hindus to the Khalsa. The coherent ideology will come from the Adi and Dasham Granths.

This is not to say that both are perfect but is as close to perfect that we will get to define a concrete religous ideology that can be used politically.

Many years ago we had suggested to the VHP for a true Hindu ideology but unfortunately it went over their head.

Their ideology is based on Neti, Neti no this not this. No wonder one who is not muslai, isai, yahoodi or parsi is Hindu.

Whither Hindutva?

By the way those confused may read Shri Sita Ram Goelji's magnum opus How I became a Hindu at Bharat Vani.

Jo Bole So Nihal
Sat Sri Akal
Sanatani

Nice to read what Vaibhav Jain has to say. Here are a few quotes from another Jain.

Quotes from Shri Girilal Jain

"It is sheer dishonesty or naivete to suggest, as is being widely suggested these days, that Hinduism can admit of theocracy. That is a Muslim privilege which no one else can appropriate.".
"Such is the grip of the misrepresentation of Hindutva in anti-Muslim terms that (even) its proponents, including some leaders of the Bhartiya Janata Party, themselves, speak of it defensively".
"The BJP is not a communal party; it cannot be, for the simple reason that Hindus have never been, and are not, a community in the accepted sense of the term. They represent an ancient civilization not known either to draw a boundary between the faithful and the faithless, the blessed and the damned, or to engage in heresy hunting and its counterpart, persecution of other faiths. Hindus are, in western terms, pagans."
"Unlike Islamic fundamentalists, the BJP does not claim to possess a blueprint. It shall have to struggle to evolve an Indian approach to modern problems."

Re: # 95

Selim Saab,

Thanks for your delving on atheists. Do tell us Saab if you have come across carnages in the name of atheism.

Atheist is actually a wrong label, an atheist is born out of love for the fellow human beings whereas people becoming pious after coming to hate all things human.

Re: # 92

Salim Bhai,

Angrez aren't that bad. Yesterday, on NDTV, a show with Shane Warne, McGrath and a few Indians was on air. You know the amount of effort the Indians took to make the whites feel loved, these shameless creatures would abhor if the shadows of low castes happen to touch theirs.

1Safe sahib #98: Actions speak louder than words - and Nawaz Sharif has demonstrated his commitment to the restoration of the Chief Justice. The rule of law is the enemy of the lawless - and extremists are nothing if not lawless. So, I think fears of the extremists coming to power under a democratic government (PML or PPP, it doesnt matter) are not justified.

Thus, to use the example of BJP that you mention - India, which of course unlike Pakistan has its Consitution intact from any attacks by its own generals, even when in power BJP's extremists were kept in check. The Islamic government in Turkey is another example. So, even if PML is considered right wing, that does not matter given its commitment to the rule of law.

Fascism in Pakistan is the result of military interference in politics - the ethnic fascists of mqm and the islamic fascists of taliban were both fathered by Zia, and both have been nurtured by Musharraf as part of his strategy of retaining his illegal position.

Re: # 97;

as for the term "kaala angrez";

I have a brownish complexion, often generalised as 'kaala' by many; I was born in England which technically makes me "an angrez";

I hope that clarifies all this once and for all.


Kaal Chakkerbaz mian,

same applies; I'd like these speculations to stop now and let us move on. I'd like to be able to interact here and voice 'my personality' exactly how it is without having to give lengthy, unnecessay explanations everytime.

Not that much to ask, is it?

Vaibhav, the dharmic requirement is not to see each other as 'problems' but to recognize real differences across religious ideologies and across different large groups of people adhering to those ideologies.

#59
Tahmed Sir,

I agree with most of your post too. Don't mean to divert from the important topic of this article.

All I am waiting for is for Nawaz Sharif to once condemn unequivically the extremists. I get all the TV-channels here, and there's the Internet; and if he has, I must have missed it. I think PML-N is our BJP; they want the cake and eat it too.

Of course, rule of law is essential.

The term Islamo-fascists means different things to different people. To me the noun is fascist, the qualifier is Islamo. Hatred and anger born out of a feeling of 'impotence' is the overriding quality of these hotheads. In this case they appropriate the religion as a justification. These very people would be the same no matter what their religion.

Re: # 95; Selim sahib,
I have no issues with you and would like to keep it that way, if it is all the same to you.

Just to Clear the Record, if it is being kept somewhere, that is:

1 - I donot go to mosque/church etc and openly talk about the same issues I have now and again raised here

2 - I donot (again openly) observe, even under false pretences, the month of Ramadan; if I am not reminded, I some times don't even realise it is upon us!

3 - I really DONOT believe in the 'super-natural' sky fairy people label as God (be it of arabic/abrahamic or any other variety); my friends and associates know this and the subject comes up very infrequently anyway
My family are aware of this too and after years, they have learnt to live with it

4 - I, generally donot drink; mostly personal choice and I don't get moralistic about others choosing to do so. Socially, I don't mind a glass of wine, now and again; This is well known to my family as well as friends of the religious variety

5 - The "burger' types, if you read my posts here, I find to be the most irritating too; I am not one of them and resent being generalised into a category, any category; I have had a standard mainstream middle class upbringing, nothing special

6 - my parents are practicing and devout muslims; if there are any 'pretences' involved, it is purely 'going along' with them at times to keep the peace; my siblings are not deeply religious (save my brother - not too different from Zeemax actually!! I have said that before)

7 - for the record, I donot celebrate christmas either, my main problem with it is the religious connotations involved; I'd celebrate Eid, again for cultural solidarity with friends and family; I have said that before as well

8 - the question of 'pretend muslim' only arises in the context of a non-muslim asking about my background; it is easier to answer yes, at least initially when you don't know them; When they get to know me, they figure it out invariably as I make no secrets of my lack of belief in sky fairies etc

You are right; who cares!!

Obviously you do for one!

Re: # 95
@ Selim_Chauhan ji

Ah ! You refer to Pascal's Wager.

Are you related to Salim_Chauhan by any means ?

Christian atheists, Jewish atheists, Muslim atheists, and Hindu atheists

While these morons sound like oxymorons, they are merely conveniently hypocritical labels.

They will go to church and be seen worshipping to gather votes. They will deny the existence of God, but claim the land of Israel due to the "Covenant" between God and Abraham. They will stuff their faces in secret or even starve themselves during Ramadan just to impress others. They will break coconuts over their laptops to launch new software and even smear war paint on their faces.

But they will all deny the existence of God. Not because they really believe that He doesn't exist, but because they fear Judgment Day and the retribution that He may prescribe for their evil deeds on earth.

...and of course to shore up their own weak belief in the absence of God, they must be zealots in propagating their "faith" to avoid being in the minority. As if, a majority of atheists is going to scare off the Supreme Being from holding court on the Final Day.

Little do these hypocrites realize that if they are right and there is no God, then who cares? They will not be around to celebrate their victory over the "foolish" believers. But if there is a God, then they are the ones who are screwed for eternity. LOL

#67, Vaibhav,

In general, the impression that I am forming is that "modern" Hindus, especially upper-caste Hindus, don't really believe in the religious teachings or dogmas of their faith. Instead, they identify with the aspect of Hinduism that gives them elevation, power, and prestige in the caste-based totem pole of Hinduism. 8-|

Re: # 65
@ Eklayva ji

I again can't take credit for projecting the death of Sanatana Dharma at the hands of Hindutva. I picked it up from the Ashis Nandy's work although he hypothesized this outcome a good 15-16 years ago.

I see what you mean but see there is a difference in the two things that you compare. Neither Shankara, nor Gautama, Vardhman or Nanak had the keen eyes of Gowalkar that identified Muslims and Christians to be a problem.
Of course the first three never had to deal with the issue cuz there were no muslims or christians then. (In Shankara's time too, it had a limited spread way south of where he lived)

Nanak, even as a boy, would give the same answer to any question posed to him: "nÄ? kÅ?i hindÅ« nÄ? kÅ?i musalmÄ?n".
------------------------

Given this modified scenario, I'd still want to repeat that I'm not saying cultural nationalism is bad or the wrong way. It might help our nation in the long run and that is to be seen. That it is surely going to overpower and erase Dharma is a total possibility

vengatramanan #68 {"Don't tell me you hate India...You have so much love for this country...:}

Vengatramanan Sahib(a),
Of course I don't hate India or Pakistan. I love both countries - I just detest and abhor the kaala angraiz who seem to always enjoy their hedonistic pursuits on the bodies of the poor and neglected people of their countries. Whether it's "India Shining" or "Defence" burger types, we all know what they stand for.

Re: # 85
In between 'nok jhok' of insomniac Aussies..
what change in your view mean to You? .how does it differ .Change is time period specific .All change in both side mean the same.
In terms of physics when a point is moved from A to b it is change in any context.
U dont mean to say Hinduism is still in the period of Sati ,Polytheism ,And plans to remain castist, misogynist, dowry ,imbalance inheritence ridden remnents of 'jahilya'

@ KaalChakra Re: # 85

That's Funny.
See I don't know how your discussion went but the fact that you discussed it out precedes this coming together (and realizing that there is no need to fear) that I am talking about. Because the way one identifies this friction is dialogue.

Re: # 88; nb "Good on you to help out"

but I AM good!!

all surgeons are...you should know that of all people!

Me too, akcheema, I'm counting on the bit of luck. Good on you to help out, I'm too burnt out to do it.

Re: # 85; eklavya..long time!

Muslim atheist huh! that is what Zee said

Look, I grew up as a muslim and that is part of my identity. Same, perhaps, for whoever was a hindu atheist.

We have discussed this elsewhere and you know very well where I stand. One of the reasons people find it hard to connect with me (people from muslim b/g) is that they don't know who the hell I am!

I am in a unique position here; I grew up in the East and West simultaneously; can speak all the relevant languages and have detailed insight into all the philosophies concerned. Despite that, I can make my own decisions! I live where I live and there is nothing anyone can do to intimidate me. If I was in Pakistan, I would be a goner for saying the things I have said, and you know it too.

They feel helpless that they can't do anything about me!

At the end of the day, I do have my sympathies for the cause of the muslim world. I'd like to see them prosper, be scientifically advanced and free-thinking etc. They are a part of me as much as I am a part of them. Like Khalil Gibran said, it is akin to separating your skin off your body!

Saying all that, I really donot believe in the supernatural gods, allah inclusive. Religion plays absolutely no part in my daily life (or my family for that matter).

You are the "deep" philosopher here; what would you call me?

Re: # 84; nb

What overtime? I finish at the end of the year and will be my own boss, with a bit of luck?

Around for a helping hand for a junior colleague; not a crime I take it?

Shah bhai, it is true that Islam represents dynamism and change, but change and dynamism, like almost everything else, mean the opposite things to Islam than they to the Indian mind (The Indian mind may be closer to the one in the pre-Islamic or jahiliyah period - I am guessing here).

-------------------

vaibhav, sometime back our atheist friend chaltahai, mirzai brother verizon, and the Hindu righter, yours truly, had a little discussion on whether things exist merely in our minds, or whether they have an objective existence outside of our minds. You should read through that to get a broader perspective.

In short, the atheists, the Indian mind (represented by all its great streams) agree that things (and frictions resulting therefrom) exist only in our minds.

Mirzais and right wingers like me disagree. We believe there are real reasons for conflict. And that these conflicts will not go away so long as those reasons exist.

--------------

vengat, cheema ji

We should find a way to identify Muslim atheists. What should they called? It's a serious question. Muslim atheist sounds odd, unless we find a way to describe the followers of Islam different from Muslims. :)

---------------------

Whether it is all in the minds of people who have gotten control of Chowk, or whethere there is any real reason for this but I have been banned. So I will not be interacting here for a while.

Stranger things have been known to happen.
Come off it, didn't you start late too, or is this overtime? I'm fanatical about giving away as much overtime as I can,even though I could do with the money to give the mortgage a push. It's too exhausting and not worth it.
Sorry for using your board to chat, kiddo!

Re: # 82

nb; in surgery we don't knock off early in the day like some!!!

and Khuda Hafiz....for all I know, I may be working with you!!

Re: # 79; nb

Thanks. Sydney eh!! I do need to be careful

btw, I am moving to the National Capital soon....

Re: # 78; vengat

I am sure they will; it is more a matter of principle if you will.

Zeemax, to my knowledge, didn't use bad language per se; nor did Dash. So to penalise long term nics is unfair in my humble opinion; surely some may have 'earned' it but many didn't.

Re: # 79

g'nite...

Akcheema and I turn up at the same time, because we are in the same time zone, unlike the rest of you, mainly across the Pacific or Indian Oceans. You still at work, akcheema?
Yes, a cretin, but umm, we don't say that any more, do we??

I am generally in favour of freedom of speech, but when it is only used to abuse women, I have to rethink. I still don't believe he should be banned, though. I totally appreciate that Vaibhav has the best interests of our country at heart, but in his place, I would be very worried if the person I am referring to had praise for my article.

BTW, I may be moving Sydney side, so be very careful :)
And g'night, both of you.

Re: # 75; akcheema


"looks like a lot of people got banned which isn't fair "

Cheer up...they will all come back with a new nic...

Re: # 76; vengat

they have been on my case for a while; I try to stay away from these distractions if I can

generally harmless I reckon but I don't like my name displayed all over the place

Re: # 75

Visit unplugged...peon Saab says you are a Kafr :D...okie...no more rumours from me ...hahah

Re: # 74; vengat

I am still at work mate; which post are you referring to?

btw; don't try to spread unnecessay rumours; looks like a lot of people got banned which isn't fair

Re: # 73

akcheema Saab,

There's very little activity on the site...Everybody must have had the sanity potion a little bit too much yesterday. Btw isn't it time you aussies say 'goodnite'...

I was wondering where you were. There is a post that has you as its protoganist...See be a Hindu atheist or a Muslim atheist, the result is the same...

Re: # 72; vengat

for the record, that isn't true. She seems to be the only person around today!!

what the heck is going on?

Re: # 69

nb,

akcheema is stalking you. I have been observing him on UP too...Tell him it looks obvious :)...

Re: # 70

and who is this person you are talking about?

Re: # 69; nb

do you mean to say a CRETIN??

Vengataraman, Vaibhav, neither of you has any idea what you're dealing with. He was born hypothyroid and never treated.

Re: # 64

Salim Bhai,

"A lot of people see success in today's India - I see nothing short of an oligarchy deliberately manufactured for the self-interests of a few high-caste hedonists at the top. This unfair monstrosity will definitely come tumbling down in good time - hopefully with as little violence as possible."

Don't tell me you hate India...You have so much love for this country...

@ Salim_Chauhan ji Re: # 64

I can't take credit for that. All I did was translate Arun Kumar Tripathi's work.

Thanks for the supportive note at the end.

Hate stems from fear.
Both Shakespeare{"In time we hate that which we often fear"} and his biggest critic GB Shaw {"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated"} concurred on this one.

The day calls for all of us to come together and realize that there is neither any real need to fear anything and the friction that exists is simply in our minds.

Chowk does a great deal in initiating this.

#65

Many things can be said about change
1}rolling stone gathers no moss

2]A change is as good as fiesta

Even often misunderstood by hindus Allama Iqbal warned


3)

Na sambhlo ge aiye hindustan wallon
Tumhare dastan tak na hogi dastanon maine

Somthing like my country men ( at that time undivided India)if you dont correct yourself

You will perish so completely that no signof you will remain even stories

It is important to note that ijtihad is an accepted concept in Islam( Not static ,dynamic ,changing like in adaptation.) No one, not even most orthodox 'alim, can deny its legitimacy.

This tradition clearly brings out the significance of ijtihad in Islam. It must be borne in mind that Islam itself came into existence in a Meccan society which was undergoing basic socio-economic 'changes'. The pre-Islamic or jahiliyah laws not only were becoming obsolete but downright obstacles for further moral, spiritual and material growth of society.Islam needs some serious IJTEHAD

Islam and its laws thus were not the product of a stagnant society but a society which felt a need for transcendence. Islam catered to the spiritual, moral and material needs of this newly emerging society. It gave new principles and laws acutely needed by the people. The Islamic response to the changing needs of the Meccan society was not only material but also moral and spiritual. Since Islam came into existence in a changing society it emphasised the need for dynamism and the principle of ijtihad embodied its spirit of dynamism.

It was the later generation of 'Ulama who while accepting the principle of ijtihad in theory de-emphasised it in practice. They evolved the concept of taqlid (unthinking imitation) in its place though they cannot quote any hadith from the Prophet in its favour. Taqlid, in a stagnant Islamic societies, thus became a widely accepted principle, as pointed out above. However, today all Islamic societies are experiencing fundamental social changes and rethinking on many issues has become very vital

vaibhav, gratifying to find you discussing issues and ideas without resorting to cheapening tactics or abuse. This requires both conviction and courage. Please excuse my frosty welcome in #10.

-----------

I am among those small voices advocating a partial re-orientation of the Indian mind. Throughout our existence, we have made these critical shifts - be they under the great leadership of Adi Shankara, the Buddha, Lord Mahavira, or Guru Nanak.

These great souls changed the Indian mind without ever hurting it, let alone killing it. So change should not be equated to death (especially in our change-oriented framework wherein change EQUALS life).

As before, the trick may be to position ourselves somewhere between the two extremes and twin dogmas (from our pov) of "no change" and "death."

{"Hindutva seeks to assert its victory2 in every feasible way. From all possible sources, it seeks to produce and display its success. In doing so, when Hindutva faces the ire of traditions, it turns to modernity. When rebuked by modernity, it sings the praises of traditions. When it fails to adopt the principles of communalism, it treads the path of secularity and on facing a dead end it retreats to seek solace with communalism again. It has abhorred both Gandhi and socialism, yet accepts them together whenever it feels the need ."}

Vaibhav,
Beautifully written and in the above quote you have summarized the essential spirit of "India Shining." It is this self-righteous, "our shit doesn't stink" jingoism of right-wing BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/SP/SS/JS/MNS hate-mongrels that drives people like me away from any sympathy or positive feeling for "modern" India. A lot of people see success in today's India - I see nothing short of an oligarchy deliberately manufactured for the self-interests of a few high-caste hedonists at the top. This unfair monstrosity will definitely come tumbling down in good time - hopefully with as little violence as possible. Good article, please keep writing.

@ tahir Re: # 62

I've become averse to Indian film music since Reshammiya.
I guess it's not a fair equation.

Re: # 41
Have you ever stood up for anything or anybody? What faith do you belong to BJ?

If you stop abusing Islam, we may discuss something as pleasant as Indian film music one day!

Your choice.

yar laddu/sha, the most "interesting" acthitecture in rajastan in in jain tamples...neigther "hindu" not mussalmani. go check out the temples in delwara, jaisselmer fort, or better, ranakpore..man the shilpis play some serious tricks on you. besides magnificent domes, and pillar etc..you pay good attention to detail..and you will find out the the repeated patterns of apsaras etc are actually not repeated and there is always the mischivious touch of the shilpi (mason)...mostly porn offcourse,

#59 the last sentence may be a bit too pessimistic - the rogue general has already lost the absolute power, or even any significant power. And that is good.

But still - the potential for mischief remains unless the rule of law is restored. And ppp's disgraceful stand on this issue of the restoration of the chief justice thus keeps the possibility open of future ambitious generals seeking to become ataturks of Pakistan.

Safe1 #51 Agreed with most of your post.

wrt "Just as I realize that the only true danger to our beautiful Pakistan comes from Islamo-fascists. ", they are certainly the "worst case scenario" which in a sense is already upon us - yesterday, these animals blew up a degree college in Swat. last week they burnt a girls school. To associate the name "Islam" to these animals is to disgrace the name of Islam.

I would therefore suggest taking back not just Pakistan, but also our religion, from these animals.

But these animals are small fry, and can attack only those who are weak or have the misfortune of falling into their control. The root problem these small fry are a problem is the rogue general and his kind who have abused their military power to give rise to the taliban and for whom the voice of the Pakistani people is totally unimportant.

Until and unless the rule of law is restored in Pakistan, these problems will fester. The PML may seem to stand alone today in upholding the rule of law against the corrupt politicians of ppp and pmlq, but in fact there is vast public opinion in support of the rule of law. The next few months will be critical to determining the future course of Pakistan - whether it is towards civilization or towards the rule of the animals.

Re: # 56

You mean Hindu architecture never knew in lay work before mohamud ghori started to kill us?

I did not say (or believe that)t Indian tourism map site

http://india.mapsofindia.com/culture/monuments/hawa-mahal.html

Its common sensense not to think that Moghul / muslim brought EVERYTHING or India was not great prior to that.Let us celebrate now after independence EVERYTHING within the LAND of hindusthan .England Muslim , Ancient Indus valley civilisation The greek ,China ,India, Arabs when europe was in dark ages.

THis not good news. India is trying to exploit Bangla Desh. Concerned countries China, pakistan and muslim nations need to offer same things and build same stuff in Bangla Desh. This indian company entering B.Desh will be detrimental to interests of pakistan and china. China and Pakistan should help bd to industrilse. Tata is old age company without high tech like china steel making. Fools are wasting time in tamasha of CJ and india will be investing in BD. Sorry state. now real Bad news.

BD to reopen talks with Tata



Sunday, May 11, 2008
DHAKA: Bangladesh’s military-backed government will reopen negotiations with Indian conglomerate Tata on Sunday on the group’s record three-billion-dollar investment plan, officials said.

Senior Tata officials led by its executive director Alan Rosling will meet top government bureaucrats nearly two years after the conglomerate postponed what would be the biggest single foreign investment in Bangladesh.

The Indian salt-to-telecoms giant offered to build a steel plant, two power plants, a fertiliser plant and a coal mine back in 2006, after upgrading a 2004 plan.

Bangladesh investment board chief Kamaluddin Ahmed confirmed the talks, but refused to provide agenda details.

A Tata official said the group was encouraged by “positive indications� from the Dhaka government.

“Yes, there is an intention to move it forward,� said Tata’s Bangladesh chief Syed Manzer Hossain. He said the company was ready to discuss all the issues.

“We submitted it in 2006 and it’s now 2008. Obviously there are some changes. The government may have some issues. We’ll evaluate the changing scenario after we meet,� he said.

Bangladesh has been under emergency rule since January 11 2007 when the president cancelled elections amid allegations of poll rigging.

The government has promised to “take up all necessary projects� to promote long-term economic growth and vowed to clean up corruption before restoring democracy and holding elections before the end of 2008.

The Bangladesh Nationalist Party government had promised a decision on the Tata project by June 2006.

"...and, on the other hand, it has elements like stone inlay work and arches, which are reflective of the Islamic style of architecture"

You mean Hindu architecture never knew inlay work before mohamud ghori started to kill us??

@ bjkumar ji (Comment # 50)

I will take your advice and start studying once next semester begins. For now I'm gonna sit back, enjoy the summer and probably make a trip to Palanpur.

I think that some time Indians should have a historical Truth and Reconciliation exercise where both sides can present their viewpoint and come to some kind of a consensus. Facts and myths are mixed on both sides. Even if a consensus is not possible because the two sides have completely different perspectives, this amrit-manthar could produce a nectar of truth.



naqshbandi:

"Also, from what I have read of Iqbal (ra), his Pakistan was to be an autonomous PART of the Indian Union not an independent country..."

His statement at the Muslim League annual conference was ambivalent and could be interpreted as a call either for a separate country or an autonomous region. In any case, there is no doubt that he was the one who mentored Jinnah who called for the resolution of Pakistan in 1940. There is nothing to suggest that Iqbal would have voted against that resolution.

His statement at the Muslim League annual conference was ambivalent and could be interpreted as a call either for a separate country or an autonomous region. In any case, there is no doubt that he was the one who mentored Jinnah who called for the resolution of Pakistan in 1940. There is nothing to suggest that Iqbal would have voted against that resolution.

I think that some time Indians should have a historical Truth and Reconciliation exercise where both sides can present their viewpoint and come to some kind of a consensus. Facts and myths are mixed on both sides. Even if a consensus is not possible because the two sides have completely different perspectives, this amrit-manthar could produce a nectar of truth.



naqshbandi:

"Also, from what I have read of Iqbal (ra), his Pakistan was to be an autonomous PART of the Indian Union not an independent country..."

#49
Laddu ko itna gussa kyon ata hai ..

It may be b/c your families collective memory from too far a distance in the southern india was too overwhelming.

If tejo mahal was indeed so why no such 'mahal' in the south??????????.After all u guys did not even have to face any army....socho

The invading Moslem came 1000yrs ago so about 800 t0 1000A.D. ago ..theek

is taj mahal more than 1000yrs old ...haan ke na

Rajput built Hawa Mahal in Jaipur around 1800 'influenced by Moghul architecture '.How could taj be tejo mahal when muslim had already been in rule for 600 to 800yrs inconsolidated rule...theek

Hawa mahal of Jaipur was built in 1799!!!!!!!!!!!!
A study of Rajput monuments shows that it was strongly influenced by Mughal architecture. However, the Rajputs adapted and used Mughals styles so tastefully in their buildings that it led to the development of a distinct architectural style of great sophistication and imaginative invention. The Rajput style, on one hand, has traditional Hindu elements like the chhatris (small domed canopies, supported by pillars), fluted pillars, lotus and floral patterns, etc., and, on the other hand, it has elements like stone inlay work and arches, which are reflective of the Islamic style of architecture

Vaibhav,

When I read your article I felt optimistic reading from an Indian who GETS it. Who has realized that the only true danger to his country comes from his own right-wingers. Just as I realize that the only true danger to our beautiful Pakistan comes from Islamo-fascists.

That in your country, a single gallone of petrol can cause the burning down of half of a state. No need to worry about Atfs, and Gaznivis.

But, it wasn't to be; I read the Interacts. As expected, the RSS-wallahs--and even worse--the Godseists, were on your case. No surprise there. What surprised me was how SELECTIVELY you respond to the interacts. That is, the interacts thus far!

Being in Texas, I am sure you have heard of the saying 'You can take the boy out of the village, but you cannot take the village out of the boy.'

Realizing this, the Hindutvadis are going to love you now!

Neverthelss, for the sake of the innocent in this region, I wish you all the best in your honest inquiry. The fact that you are a young person bespeaks your potential and,that you are miles ahead of a lot of others.

Please do not bother responding, I understand.

Look Vaibhav, maybe I was a bit too harsh on you yesterday. But the simple fact is - based on reading this piece, I strongly recommend you to focus on your studies more than mistakenly trying to solve the enigma that is Hinduism.

I agree- calling a tomb as mahal makes no sense unless you want to denigrade the dhimmi 'mahal' as a tomb.
The place pre-existed as a mahal and was used to house mumtaz's kabr in a hindu dhimmi's palace.
It is like some one entering your house and asking it to be vacated for burying one's family member!!

Lahol!!

Re: # 46
Bharti Laddu

So you read official historical 'truth 'or you just feel that it was UN truth not sure what truth is .



What is YOUR truth .Is this line of direction more in line with non Marxist No ncert Non one sided view Histriography

"The term Tajmahal itself never occurs in any mogul court paper or chronicle even in Aurangzeb's time. The attempt to explain it away as Taj-i-mahal is therefore, ridiculous......

Re: # 44 mr.n. those things are gone. anotomous part etc could have worked in 1040s, now talk of that , or such things can lead to bifercation of country, especially baloachistan, and MAJOR ENERGY gas comes from there. without cheaper gas export economy can get hurt very badly. talk of atonomy is extremely dangerous and terror tactics use like bla will have god sent opportunity tojustify in historical sense.please do not bring back that . thanks

"My friend feels the same about Marxist academics and their conceptualization of Indian History."

Let the text books , when they provide Marxist Historiography say it loudly that it is based upon the marxist view. Same should be about the hindutva view of history. I think that would make things fair enough than teaching children contorted and one sided view of the history as 'official truths' in text books.

I remember reading the NCERT books that certainly was based upon the marxist reading of history. It was much later I could understand the other side of story.

We need to provide the school going children an understanding of politics of historiography as well so that they can understand that what is being taught is NOT an official 'historical-truth'.

Re: # 43

Naqshbandi sahib, thanks for the clarification. I have no idea where I read about his emigrating to Pakistan - but I had always wondered how anyone writing those lines could actually emigrate! (But then, poets are notoriously unstable!)

Also, from what I have read of Iqbal (ra), his Pakistan was to be an autonomous PART of the Indian Union not an independent country...

correction: bjkumar sahib--allama iqbal -may Allah perfume his resting place!--passed away to His Lord in 1938--a full 9 years before Independence.

Re: # 40

Mr. India, you are of course aware that the guy who wrote that song (Iqbal) left for Pakistan as soon as he got the chance?!!

Harimau is Harimau, but the point you miss is there is legitimate room for making the argument that the "seculars" in India are hypocrites whose rant is limited to beating up on the Hindus while letting all the Muslim fanaticism go undiscussed. It is entirely possible that the rise of the BJP and like-minded parties over the past two decades is more a result of the general population becoming wiser to that duplicity rather than anything else - including what these BJP wallas are saying.

#36 Tahir

Kambakhat Tahir,

Why are you so "fond" of the Cheema? Calling him a naked saadhu on a board he is not even on.

And BTW, why are you and your Islamist pals so sensitive to the "abuse" of Islam?

If your faith is strong enough, shouldn't it be able to handle it?

Why do you have to go chopping off heads simply because anybody - man, woman, or child - squeaks "I don't know about this!"?

#2Harimiou

'Self-hatred has been instillled in Hindus more effectively by Jwahirullah Nehru and his minions at JNU than by the Britishers.

Vaibhav Jain, however, is the first example of a Jain ashamed of not being a Muslim or Christian'

And what kind of Indian are you who does not understand any of the three national anthem of HINDU india?

Looks like u r ashamed to be Indian is it b/c u r more Tamil or dont understand Hindi or detest equality of human practiced in mosques unlike u r brahmin mandir ?Inquiring mind wants to know Jai Hind



sÄ?re jahÄ?n se acchÄ? hindostÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?
ham bulbulain hai is ki, yeh gulsitÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

ghurbat men hon agar ham, rahta hai dil vatan men
samjho vahÄ«n hamen bhÄ«, dil hain jahÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

parbat voh sab se Å«nchÄ?, hamsÄ?ya Ä?smÄ?n ka
voh santari hamÄ?rÄ?, voh pÄ?sbÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

godi men kheltÄ« hain is ki hazÄ?ron nadiyÄ?
gulshan hai jin ke dam se, rashk-e-janÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

aye Ä?b, raud, ganga, voh din hen yÄ?d tujhko
utarÄ? tere kinÄ?re, jab kÄ?rvÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

maz'hab nahÄ«n sikhÄ?tÄ? Ä?pas men bayr rakhnÄ?
hindvi hai ham, vatan hai hindostÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

yÅ«nÄ?n-o-misr-o-romÄ?, sab miá¹­ gaye jahÄ?n se
ab tak magar hai bÄ?qi, nÄ?m-o-nishÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

kuch bÄ?t hai keh hastÄ«, miá¹­ati nahÄ«n hamÄ?rÄ«
sadiyon rahÄ? hai dushman, daur-e-zamÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

iqbal ko'Ä« meharam, apnÄ? nahÄ«n jahÄ?n men
m'alÅ«m kya kisÄ« ko, dard-e-nihÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

Translation
Better than the entire world, is our Hindustan;
we are its nightingales of mirth, and it is our garden abode

Though in foreign lands we may reside, with our homeland our hearts abide,
Regard us also to be there, where exist our hearts

That mountain most high, neighbor to the skies;
it is our sentinel; it is our protector

In the lap of whose, play thousands of rivers;
gardens they sustain; the envy-of-the-heavens of ours

O waters of the Ganga mighty, do you recall the day
when on your banks, did land the caravan of ours

Religion does not teach us to harbour grudges between us
Indians we all are; India, our motherland

While Greece, Egypt , Rome have all been wiped out
till now yet remains, this civilization of ours {it has stood the test of time}

Something there is that keeps us,our entity from being eroded
For ages has been our enemy, the way of the world

Iqbal! Is there no soul that could
understand the pain in thy heart?

#2Harimiou

'Self-hatred has been instillled in Hindus more effectively by Jwahirullah Nehru and his minions at JNU than by the Britishers.

Vaibhav Jain, however, is the first example of a Jain ashamed of not being a Muslim or Christian'

And what kind of Indian are you who does not understand any of the three national anthem of HINDU india?

Looks like u r ashamed to be Indian is it b/c u r more Tamil or dont understand Hindi or detest equality of human practiced in mosques unlike u r brahmin mandir ?Inquiring mind wants to know Jai Hind



sÄ?re jahÄ?n se acchÄ? hindostÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?
ham bulbulain hai is ki, yeh gulsitÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

ghurbat men hon agar ham, rahta hai dil vatan men
samjho vahÄ«n hamen bhÄ«, dil hain jahÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

parbat voh sab se Å«nchÄ?, hamsÄ?ya Ä?smÄ?n ka
voh santari hamÄ?rÄ?, voh pÄ?sbÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

godi men kheltÄ« hain is ki hazÄ?ron nadiyÄ?
gulshan hai jin ke dam se, rashk-e-janÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

aye Ä?b, raud, ganga, voh din hen yÄ?d tujhko
utarÄ? tere kinÄ?re, jab kÄ?rvÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

maz'hab nahÄ«n sikhÄ?tÄ? Ä?pas men bayr rakhnÄ?
hindvi hai ham, vatan hai hindostÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

yÅ«nÄ?n-o-misr-o-romÄ?, sab miá¹­ gaye jahÄ?n se
ab tak magar hai bÄ?qi, nÄ?m-o-nishÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

kuch bÄ?t hai keh hastÄ«, miá¹­ati nahÄ«n hamÄ?rÄ«
sadiyon rahÄ? hai dushman, daur-e-zamÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

iqbal ko'Ä« meharam, apnÄ? nahÄ«n jahÄ?n men
m'alÅ«m kya kisÄ« ko, dard-e-nihÄ?n hamÄ?rÄ?

Translation
Better than the entire world, is our Hindustan;
we are its nightingales of mirth, and it is our garden abode

Though in foreign lands we may reside, with our homeland our hearts abide,
Regard us also to be there, where exist our hearts

That mountain most high, neighbor to the skies;
it is our sentinel; it is our protector

In the lap of whose, play thousands of rivers;
gardens they sustain; the envy-of-the-heavens of ours

O waters of the Ganga mighty, do you recall the day
when on your banks, did land the caravan of ours

Religion does not teach us to harbour grudges between us
Indians we all are; India, our motherland

While Greece, Egypt , Rome have all been wiped out
till now yet remains, this civilization of ours {it has stood the test of time}

Something there is that keeps us,our entity from being eroded
For ages has been our enemy, the way of the world

Iqbal! Is there no soul that could
understand the pain in thy heart?

It's funny that I'm euphemistic about this too.
'Banter' ... HA !

So, initially I thought I was to blame for this banter.
But on retrospect, I don't think we have ever needed a stimulus to start fighting amongst each other.
If y'all are indeed proud chowkies, please remember that this is a platform for dialogue and introspection and our motive or goal is lasting peace and understanding.
We all joined on this pretext.

Re: # 28
Any fake naked 'saadhu' can be your REAL friend, all because he abuses Islam!

I would not label Geeta-haters my friends.

Start talking sense by your 16th. birthday!

Re: # 30

Harimau,

No way. SC/STs are more affluent than you.

Btw, When is the sambandhi bojanam with them?

Muslims know to fight Amrikans. Can you fight the SC/STs?

@ nb (Comment #33)

I like your stand. It is definitive and sincere.
My friend feels the same about Marxist academics and their conceptualization of Indian History.

What about writers like Ram Sharan Sharma, Satish Chandra, Arjun and Indra Dev ? All of their stuff was scrapped and rewritten too. I mean evidential arguments is one thing but when passages upon passages are removed from textbooks with no explanation; that is simply distortion for political purposes - intellectual barbarianism.

Mistaken enigma: it is your perception, or dare I say it, your ideology, that determines the difference between ideological scrapping and ideological writing.
At least you have the honesty to admit ideology does play a role in the writing of history, and has for millenia.
For decades, there were no complaints when a predominantly, if not entirely Marxist/Congress view of history was sold to generations of schoolchildren. The other side of the picture needs to be seen as well, and I support the telling of the whole story.

*Correction*

I meant his/her language.

Though I'm tempted to think that it is definitely not the latter.

@ harimau (Comment #2)

It's convenient to say rectification of historical distortion and get away with it.
But then, why should I debate this 'who is right' issue with a person so judgmental that he/she lets it take charge of his language. The last thing I'll ever be ashamed of, sir, is being born a Jain.

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@ bjkumar ji (Comment# 27-28)

That was very poetic bjkumar ji.

I do look like I'm picking my nose. It's funny no one hypothesized that before. But then again, you have the poet's eyes.

Correction:

"there is no such creature as a kind Pakistani of the chowk kind!"

should be read as

"there is no such creature as a kind Pakistani of the chowk kind! (except Cheema sahib, of course!)"

Re: # 10

Eklavya, if this kambakhat writer is really a 20 year old student from India, shouldn't he be doing what he came here from Chandigarh to do?!

You know – like STUDYING!

Like studying Petroleum and Geosystems Engineering – instead of hanging out with a bunch of useless Pakistanis?!

Not just ANY bunch of useless Pakistanis – but the useless of the most useless – Pakistanis of the chowk kind!

Scratch out the “kind� – there is no such creature as a kind Pakistani of the chowk kind!

Kambakhat gaya kaam se!

BTW, if any of you want to see how this writer looks when picking his nose (come on, you all are DYING to see it!) check out this URL:

nazaronline.net/profiles/vjain.html

Vaibhav,

As a minority living in UK, I can give my view of political scenario in UK.

We have London Mayoral elections recently and the real contest was btw Labour and Tories. There's UK's BJP i.e. British National Party with an agenda similar to our BJP's. Tho their Mayoral candidate managed to enter the London Assembly on the basis of overall votes recvd, he's not treated as another politician by the rest of the Assembly, incl by conservatives. Even Mayor Boris refused to shake hand with the BNP leader.

The BNP's Richard Barnbrook is treated as a big pariah with even Tories NOT SITTING NEXT TO HIM NOR THEY WANT TO TALK TO HIM IN the London Assembly.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3872821.ece

The mainstream party candidates walked off the stage when Richard Barnbrook stepped up to speak after becoming, early on Saturday morning, the first member of the British National Party to win a seat on the London Assembly. Mr Barnbrook was unpeturbed.

He expects to be treated as a pariah for the next four years, but insists that he will not be cowed. “If I have to be a lone wolf I will be one,� he told The Times.

Mr Barnbrook, 47, said that he intends to become the voice of “true Londoners�, fighting against political correctness and preferential treatment for racial minorities. He will press for the Union Jack to be flown permanently over City Hall,........

++

There're demonstrations against Barnbrook at City Hall by many whites.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23482865-details /City+Hall+protesters+vow+to+force+out+new+BNP+politician/article.do


City Hall protesters vow to force out new BNP politician
Sri Carmichael, Evening Standard
07.05.08 Related Articles

More than 400 protesters gathered at City Hall to register their disgust at the election of a British National Party member to the London Assembly.


+++++++++++++

Tho we have this Islamic extremism in our midst in India but the kinda of polity that's evolving is not good for India in the long run.

I only hope that India doesn't become a Hindu Pakistan.

However, I dont care if I become a foreign national by then.

@ Mr. India (Comment #24)

If you see ghrina as my motive then that is your perception. I don't think I need to shirk from calling a spade.

If my analysis is incorrect then so be it, but I don't think I'm guilty of misinterpretation. Only, probably, misled by all my sources collectively.

I never said that the Hindutva hasn't done good to society. In fact, I am part of a couple of organizations. One that promotes Sanatana Dharma on campuses and another more Hindutva-oriented. And for all the good reasons that you and I are aware of.

I do come from the business community ... you are right. So my views should simply be branded and put aside, right ?

Hindutva is the ideology of a section of the lower middle class.

It feeds off of an anger that has embedded itself in their consciousness. This anger is rooted in a feeling of being cheated by that modernization that hasn't kept its promises. Young men who didn't get anywhere in life are susceptible to manipulation because what Hindutva offers is a sense of belonging from which they extract a sense of society and purpose.."

Its true of any community.The riots and visible discrimination is on the 'street' mainly .In the country clubs exclusive resturants and society the rich of every community sing kum-bayas.

Such ghrina for the other group is customary for the socially and economically well of.The wrter comes from business community known for its wealth.

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Re: #5
"It feeds off of an anger that has embedded itself in their consciousness. You can make the same statement for Communism or Islamism. "

Mr. Laddu, I thought you very busy reading some enlightening material! Calling Islam ISLAM-ism and equating it with man-made Kameena-ism is a mistake!

And there's no embedded anger here, and if there is, it is only against evil and wickedness.

Regards.

Vaibhav:

Sometimes it is OK not to be polite. These Hindutva freaks derive inspiration from badly printed photographs of Shivaji, Rana Pratap and Bhagat Singh. It is, of course, beyond their comprehension that none of these guys were "mobsters".

#13 Posted by mistaken_enigma

Vaibhav:

"What I have done, instead is picked up Hindutva and talked about ..... Its intellectual agenda"

Sorry, but how can you talk about something that does not exist?

#13 Posted by mistaken_enigma:

Vaibhav:

" I am not fighting. I am not preaching a need to fight anything."

Yeah, I understand you .... but the hindutva types will brand it as "cowardice". Needless to say that their bravery come out while operating through mobs and their brave acts are manifested in actions such as those which involve pulling out unborn babies from wombs.

#14 Posted by HP,

Is it true that Hindutva ideology is for sexually frustrated people?

This may or may not be true, but certainly the below line by the author is 100% true as seen right here on Chowk:

"Hindutva is the ideology of a section of the lower middle class."

One can easily see the difference between various Hindu interactors here in proof.

Vaibhav,

A very good article. What is scary about these Hindutva fanatics is that they are just a few steps away from using State power (the commies have already done it in WB and the dhotis in Gujrat). Fanatical thugs like Togadia and Modi are being backed by intelligent, calm and calculating butchers like Sudarshan (I actually like to call him the DON of Jhandewallah). They have already started defining a Hindu in their own terms for, as you correctly say, ".... they have always been embarrassed and felt humiliated by Hinduism as it is."

..... The actual reason as to why they are humiliated by Hinduism is because Hinduism never accepted them in the past (remember the Jan Sangh).

@ nb (Comment #11)

I think ideological writing is very different from ideological scrapping, and rewriting on the basis of appropriateness.

@ Laddu ji (Comments# 5-8)

I don't think I have confused the 2 concepts, though, as you say, I may not have done a decent job at saying that the two are different.
You have referred to the age old Dhimmitude. I'm not at all as well read as you seem to be and honestly, I would never have heard of it if not for the September 11 attack. My point in quoting whoever, was to say that by writing so we are in a way maintaining double standards. On the one hand, a picture of Arab Imperialism is being distributed whereas on the other, nationalistic origins and loyalties are being announced.
I am indeed may be less knowledgeable about Jinna-dharma (although what you have listed as your summary of Jainism are concepts that I have high regard for. I particularly enjoy talking about Anekantavada to people here in Texas as well as back home). At the same time, I am involved as and promote Sanatana Dharma here in the United States even as a university student.

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I am not fighting. I am not preaching a need to fight anything. You must notice that this article doesn't point at anyone or wag a severe finger at anyone in particular. I have refrained from taking any names. Why? I simply don't believe that violence with words is necessary at all.

What I have done, instead is picked up Hindutva and talked about
1) Its roots
2) Its double standards
3) Its separation from the secular
4) Its intellectual agenda
5) Its projected inevitable reign

And though all this is the bulk of what I have written, the point of my write-up is everything apart from this. I wanted to sing a song in which Sanatana Dharma which began out as a rhythm-less melody has been drowned in the loud beats and tones of nationalism (I apologize to all music lovers for using such a horrid analogy) and eventually hypothesize the death of Hinduism (in India) at the very hands of Hindutva – an idea of Nandy's.

"Hindutva is the ideology of a section of the lower middle class. It feeds off of an anger that has embedded itself in their consciousness. This anger is rooted in a feeling of being cheated by that modernization that hasn't kept its promises. Young men who didn't get anywhere in life are susceptible to manipulation because what Hindutva offers is a sense of belonging from which they extract a sense of society and purpose..."

Baivab,
you are absolutely wrong. The upper middle class is more close to BJP/RSS than any other segment. They may not like destruction of Babri Mosque, but treat this as harmless (not the way secularists treat as hell imposed upon it) activity.
The way sectarian violence gripped in Pakistan ( Shia, Sunni , Ahmadis), you should be grateful that Indian culture does not promote such activity ( Jain, Budhdhist, Sikhs Vs. Hindus never happened).
It is simply useless (better to say harmful) to have mediaval, middle east barbarism on this soil. It does not serve any purpose. It rather creates a 3rd class, mediaval slaves, who are totally disconnected from the land and it's civilisation. Pakistan, Bangladesh etc... is glaring example of this. If RSS becomes successful in suppressing this evil in India, this should be welcomed.
Apart from Jains,Budhdhists and Sikhs, there are couple of thousands of Parsis and Jews. I have never seen any confrontation between RSS and these people...

Vaibhav, did you get any death threats for joining the facebook group you did? Just curious, surely such a malignant, dangerous cult would issue death threats?
You deny that Jainism is the same as Hinduism, and that is your choice-not that of many of the many, many Jains I know-but at the same time you seem to want to criticise Hindutva from the inside. As a non-Hindu, your fear of Hindutva is entirely justified, and an article like this is unremarkable, except for the obvious confusion of it's author.
There are many forms and degrees of Hindutva, just as there are many forms of Hinduism. By lumping them all together, you do exactly what the most right wing elements want you to do.
Lastly, surely you do not suggest that the history books which were written before the rise of the BJP owed nothing to ideology?

Come on, guys, give the author a break. He is a twenty year old kid. He has a right to try out different ideas. His last article elicited exactly zero (0) responses.

We should be engaging him - if he feels confident enough to enter into discussions -, and teaching him, instead of criticizing him.

(If he is not ready, let the poor kid go. The debate, if any, should be communists and other outsiders who leverage children for their own purposes.)

----------------

Mr. India, what does Taj-Mahal have to do with any of this?

The term Tajmahal itself never occurs in any mogul court paper or chronicle even in Aurangzeb's time. The attempt to explain it away as Taj-i-mahal is therefore, ridiculous.

2.The ending "Mahal"is never muslim because in none of the muslim countries around the world from Afghanistan to Algeria is there a building known as "Mahal".

3.The unusual explanation of the term Tajmahal derives from Mumtaz Mahal, who is buried in it, is illogical in at least two respects viz., firstly her name was never Mumtaj Mahal but Mumtaz-ul-Zamani and secondly one cannot omit the first three letters "Mum" from a woman's name to derive the remainder as the name of the building

Vaibhav,

I doubt you even understand your own Jinna-Dharma. It is one of the most sophisticated of hindu thought.
It's Syad-vada, Anekanta-vada, the atomic theory of karma particles and the entire yogic system of nirjara to achieve liberation is indeed beyond you!!!

Hindutva CANNOT replace hinduism .
Hindutva cannot be a substitute for 'Sanatan Dharma' but it does provide political conditions necessary for the re-sugence of Hinduism.
Hindutva is necessary to check mate the rise of Islamic Fascism in India and the momeen hordes.
Hindutva is a necessary political philosophy to protect Hinduism.
Hindutva are the neo-kshatriyas for hindiusm and it must be in good condition for hinduism to survive!!

"A central minister of the former BJP-led government writes, “For centuries wherever Islam actually ruled it had been sacrilegious and traitorous to study, develop or propagate ....� 14."

I am surprised that you have little understanding of Islam and its political history in India!!
You have to read the law of Dhimmitude and the way the India was divided into Zimmi-dari where the Nawabs were given Zimma for the Zimmis in a particular jurisdiction- the Nawabs aimed at collecting specific KHARAJ on behalf of the Muslim Badshah in Delhi.
There were little relaxations when it came to re-construction of temples defiled by the momeen hordes - Go to those temples in North or even south- you would find the defiled and dis-membered statutes still on the Gopurams and temple pillars.
They remained dis-figured because the law of dhimmi-tude DOES NOT ALLOW for reconstruction of the defiled temples.

Islam simply DOES NOT ALLOW for propagation of dhimmi religion in the occupied land. Dhimmis have to be extra careful if they attempt to do so and can be killed any time if they try it.

"
Hindutva is the ideology of a section of the lower middle class. It feeds off of an anger that has embedded itself in their consciousness."

You can make the same statement for Communism or Islamism.

But I am disappointed because you have neither been able to succesfully understand and segregate the twin concepts of "Hindutva" which is essentially a political and 'social' concpet of RSS and that of 'Hinduism' or Sanatan Dharma which have clear common philosophical threads of liberation, karma, transmigration through renunciation (vairagya), meditation (dhyana) and knowledge (jnana).

RSS and their "Hindutva" is NOT 'Hinduism' and confusing the two is a very common strategy by the commies to erect the strawman before accusing it of all sorts of things!!

Re: # 2

Assertiveness? Yes, the upper caste Hindus will exhibit the increasing assertiveness over the SC/ST population.

Vaibhav, Jainism is very much part of Indian culture.It is far different from imported mediaval,middle east,barabric nomadic practises. Jainism does not look bizzare in Indian context. Influence of Mahaveer and other Tirthankars on indians are far larger than the Jain community. You need to know the state of Ahmadias and Shias in Pakistan. When you need to tackle barbarism, you need to adopt some unethical steps (not always), sometimes. This is kind of scavenger's work. RSS is doing that. We all should be thankful to RSS.

Ref nkg #1

[Man, what you want to say? If people want to rectify historical distortions, what is your problem?]

Rectifying historical distortions might lead to self-respect and assertiveness on the part of Hindus. Which is what the pseudo-secularists don't want.

If Aurangzeb granted a firman to one Hindu temple giving it some money, that is magnified and trumpeted as the example of the secular humanism of Auramgzeb and that is used to hide the fact that he destroyed hundreds of temples.

If Akbar, in his megalomania, tried to synthesize a new religion called Din-Ilahim that is secularism but the fact that under him Hindu capitals such as Chitorgarh were utterly devastated never to be populated again can be conveniently ignored.

Self-hatred has been instillled in Hindus more effectively by Jwahirullah Nehru and his minions at JNU than by the Britishers.

Vaibhav Jain, however, is the first example of a Jain ashamed of not being a Muslim or Christian.

Man, what you want to say? If people want to rectify historical distortions, what is your problem?