Can the Judiciary Save the Coalition?

Posting on behalf of Masadi sahib

Why Restoring the Deposed Judges is Priority #1 for Pakistan
M. Asadi


The most important issue facing the country today is the restoration of the judges. The ‘Judicial Crisis’ before Musharraf’s November ‘07 emergency was manufactured by the Pakistan Army/US in order to get Musharraf (who had fallen out of favor with the people and with the Americans) out of his uniform, staying in which he would have damaged the military and hence US interests in the region. This manipulation produced the unintended consequence of the lawyers’ movement. It is a movement that does not see eye to eye with the judges. Therefore when the judges termed the objection against Musharraf's presidential election "unmanageable" allowing him to go ahead with what was illegal, the lawyers took to the streets to protest this same court with the same judges they now support. The restoration of these judges who were removed unconstitutionally by Musharraf sets a very bad precedent for military rule (and therefore it is being opposed by the president, by the military and by the Americans), more so than any alliance that the PPP or PML-N can come up with, which thus far has been a molding of them into the PML-Q image, to legitimize the recent elections, that produced the results we saw in order to salvage military rule in this country. If this country has to change towards a democratic future then the judges must be restored immediately, the restored court will be beholden more to the people and the lawyers movement than to the military if such a precedent is set. Therefore there is no issue facing the country at this moment that is more important than this single issue, otherwise the status quo will ensure the repeat of what happened in the past and these new civilian leaders will return to their old ways under military over lordship. The problems of the people that have continued in the past though military dictatorships and the ‘stop-gap’ civilian rule under military over lordship will continue as in the past. The only difference is that time has almost run out to keep with the same forumula. If PPP prevents the restoration of the judges, the PML-N should resign wholesale from the cabinet and the parliament and join the lawyers movement and other assorted boycotters to challenge the farcial elections of February '08 and to restore the constitution which de-facto is still in abeyance, and will be until and unless the judges are restored and the person sitting in the presidential chair is removed for illegally occupying it.

Another unintended consequence of the US/Pakistan Army elections of '08 is the fact that Nawaz Sharif has a personal axe to grind against Musharraf, for the purpose of which he is taking the just and correct stand on the judges- the people and the lawyers should encourage this (personal enmity) and take it to its logical conclusion, a liberation of the presidential office from being a proxy of the Pakistan Army (and its US masters). That the Pakistan Army/US is resisting the restoration of judges proves that the restoration of the judges would set a really bad precedent for military rule in Pakistan (which the Americans desire because they work primarily through the military institution in our country), and would be a unique step towards damaging army rule; all the more that it must be accomplished as priority # 1- regardless of the personality of the deposed Chief Justice. It is not about the man but about restoration of a structure that would be conducive to democracy. Otherwise, the new PML-Q in the making (i.e. PPP and PML-N), will both be destroyed as political forces in the country- the people gave them a clear mandate and now these "incorporated to salvage the military" parties will lose their base of support, the military will emerge from these manipulations stronger than ever, and other than the lawyers’ movement the people of Pakistan will have nothing to fall back upon. That is why the restoration of the judges is priority #1 in order to salvage the nation and save its people from poverty, illiteracy and injustice. If the judiciary is not restored nothing changes, on the other hand, restoring them adds not only legitimacy to the civilian leadership with the people, it fragments the absolute power of the military in political affairs which is unprecedented (therefore it sets a bad precedent for the military) in the history of Pakistani politics (under de-facto military rule even during the so-called 'democratic' periods), a defeat for the military by the civilian leadership of this country- that is why it is not being allowed.

Eighty one percent of the people of Pakistan want the restoration of the judges, not because they love Chief Justice Ifthikhar Chaudry but because they hate Musharraf and want an end to military rule, direct or via a proxy. When the PPP agreed to the restoration of the judges and then waffled, it is seen by the people as being in bed with the military and with Musharraf- this does not sit well with the people of Sindh, just as it does not sit well with the people of Punjab . The PML-N if it quits, resigns and takes to the street will develop "street power" because of the changed situation, it will boost the lawyers’ movement and bring to an end this February ‘08 farcial election's attempt to maintain the status quo. This issue is a make or break issue for current political inroads through the present parliament for the people. The military will emerge stronger from the whole scenario if the PML-N decides to stay and the judges are not restored, and the PPP will be destroyed as a people's political party by hobnobbing with the generals and the current president. The status quo and working within the same structure that manipulates and corrupts politicians all for the purpose of strengthening the military and the US in our affairs will not achieve anything. The military has meticulously planned the destruction of the PPP and Zardari is helping them achieve that end.

Elections carried out after military manipulations and a declaration of emergency, not to mention the butchering of the main political party's leader (Benazir Bhutto), and then dictating to that party whose leadership was usurped by someone(Zardari) who has no real political history in that party whatsoever, who is trying to legitimize these entire manipulations including the emergency, where reconciliation means getting everyone on board with the military and destroying the legitimacy of any and every civilian alternative to it, by wiping out the major political parties' support-base in this careless manner, will ensure that nothing gets accomplished for the people of this country: Over 84% of whom are living below $2 a day (most below $1 a day), while water, electricity and food shortages are endemic and widespread, national debts have grown enormously, there is runaway inflation, rampant illiteracy, an unmanageable, young population and happenings on the western border with almost daily American meddling that is ensuring a physical break-up of the country. That is why the stand on the judiciary is issue #1 facing this nation, that first step will go a long way in changing this structure of manipulation, and it will be a major (not a minor) defeat for the military in political affairs. It is priority #1, for this reason alone, regardless of the person of Chief Justice Chaudhry. It is not about restoring a person but a first step in restoring democracy in this nation, a nation on its death-bed, a first step to get the Pakistan Army/US out of our political affairs, and to rid the country of the side-effects (mentioned above) of such meddling. There is no alternative.

Regards

...it is difficult to figure out what the ppp will gain from its current stance on judges......

i am in pakistan at the moment, and one can feel the sand slipping away from under ppp's feet......everyone is supporting nawaz sharif - from the lawyers, to the civil society to the media to everyone else......if elections are held today, a coalition of pml-n/ji/pti/baluch nationalists would win three provices.......while ppp would be left to rural sind........not sure where anp would end up....

.....ppp has tied itself up with the two entities, currently, which are truly disliked in pakistan - musharraf and usa (not to mention with mqm, which is disliked everywhere other than in urban sindh)....

why in the world has it done so, and let nawaz step ahead of the game.......even though, it was the ppp which fought the anti-establishment war against musharraf.....

nawaz sharif and family ran away to saudi arabia - running away, instead of going to jail is the ultimate political suicide in pakistani politics.......other than javed hashmi, none of the pml-n leaders spent any time in jail.....the pml split up into factions; most of it turning into lotas.......it was allied with maulvis who got a severe beating in the elections......

.....on the other hand, ppp did not split too much....its top leaders went to jail - zardari, gilani, naveed qamar......they became the opposition......its leader - benazir - died in a manner which many ppp workers blame on musharraf......it took on the mqm in karachi.....it took on the maulvis everywhere.....

so nawaz sharif spends his time in a palace in saudi arabia, while zardari/gilani spend their time in jail cells.....yet, ppp has now allowed pml-n to steal the show.......a show - freedom of judiciary - which pml-n had nothing to do with......freedom of judiciary (and media) is something pml-n pposed tooth and nail, when in power........

........i think ppp's internal structures are out of touch with reality......there brightest mind and only true urban leader - aitezaz ahsan - is in conflict with them and may be left out in the cold........

......pakistan is evolving from feudal/pir political structures to an urban democratic strucutre.......even a cynic like me has had to accept this after seeing the reusults of the recent elections.....

pml-n has evolved with this structure.....it has no feudal structures left any more....it is a true urban and non-pir party......its complete top leadership is non-feudal.....

ppp is the oppposite.....its manifesto is progressive, its leadership if feudal/pir.....

hence, i think what the ppp is doing now, is simply to secure zardari's NRO.....it is the singular decision of a feudal head, which the party is forced to follow, due to its dynastic and feudalistic history......i am quite sure the rank and file of ppp and most of its leaders must be opposed to it......i am 100% sure yusuf gilani is opposed to it.......and it is obvious aitezaz ahsan is opposed to it.....jehangir badr, raza rabbani (the two other urban leaders; though non-electable) must be opposed to it, also......

anyways, ppp is missing the bus, to save zardari - who has no political background in the party......the three leaders after benazir should have been amin fahim (feudal), yusuf gilani (pir) and aitezaz ahsan (urban)......they are out of the loop.......

....lawyers and media are alreayd chomping at the bit to start their agitation.....they have tasted blood....apdm (ji/pti/baluch) are seeing their predictions coming true and will join it.....nawaz senses that he has stepped ahead of ppp, and will join it.......if civil society also joins it (whict it might, since ppp cannot go after it, like the army could), then ppp has had it........

ppp will then have only one option left.....join up with pml-q and mqm (and thus fully with musharraf), rely on us support and force pml-n into the opposition.......at which point, ppp will be reduced to a rural sindh party.....

all of this to save one person's personal assets.......

later....

Free again, had been banned by Chowk Staff, anyway,

I have submitted an article to Chowk Staff on "Why Restoring the Judiciary is priority #1 for Pakistan" presents my views, most are stated under on the issue. In the note to editors I have asked them not to censor it so that there can be healthy discussion on the issue. Let us hope they don't take the Musharraf path of lies and censorship and barbarism....

testing

Re: # 94

izuber sahib,

we started off on the wrong foot. This is what I wrote in reply to Hurricane sahib elsewhere.

Donot make any mistakes as I am a practicing Muslim, you seem to insinuate somehow I am not!!

Re: # 60

Hurricane sahib,

[Re:Kulharee, pakistan3,
izuber has said nothing offensive. You may think Islam is the root of all troubles, I think otherwise. It is a beautiful religion and I am hapy and proud to be a muslim.]

Hurricane sahib, where did I say anything against Islam? I am a practicing and passionate Muslim and resent being regarded otherwise.

I was talking in the context of some, taking it upon themselves to "evaluate" the Pakistani situation, social or otherwise, and dictate what Pakistan should or shouldn't look like when they chose not to live here themselves. As if we are part of some "experiment" for them.

By the same token, if where they live is SO bad and un Islamic, they are more than welcome to return to their motherland.

We can all share its fortunes and misfortunes, eat "aadhi roti" but with pride and make it work. No one should just assume the right to tel us what we should do when they don't actually live here!

Surely that is not a difficult point to understand?

I have to get going.

Allah nigehbaan

Re: # 90

"It is a disgusting discussion because it didn't suit your self riteous personality."

I would disagree that "it is a disgusting discussion" -- but I would agree that this discussion perhaps doesn't suit the self rioteous personality of anyone -- who lives in Karachi...:)

g'night...

Btw talking about radio, back in the 1980s, SW would catch Radio Moscow's clear english broadcasts, now they are missing, once in a while you can catch Voice of Russia, filling in the Vacuum however is China Radio International, with an American face but cruder propaganda than the more subtle propaganda of the VOA, BBC is still the best out there except when it comes to hot issues in which their pro-govt propaganda is quite obvious, like the Zimbabwe, Burma, China/Tibet case, it is quite blatant and much worse than what they used to broadcast in the past. On a clear night you can catch Radio Australia, and Radio Deutchevelle. Iranian radio broadcasts some leftist propaganda in English regularly. Radio Pakistan's broadcasts are still where they were back in the 1980s. Jesus-saves (freaks) from the US are all over the SW bands in order to fish souls for christ, and you can get all this "media freedom" for under Rs 300 ($4) if you can run into a Khan who is selling Chinese SW radios, freshly smuggled from the border.....enjoy

Re: # 87
Pakistan3 states:
"It is a disgusting discussion because it didn't suit your self riteous personality."

and then signs off as "idiot"

Had I known your level of "idiocracy" I would have saved some minutes and mileage responding to you as my brothers in Islam are better than your sign off.

the most vile way

pakistan3 writes "Before Mush, this WAS unthinkable in Pakistan, or wasn't it?

Let us give credit where it is due."

Horse shit. People who have lived in Pakistan pre 1999 coup know very well that i) CNN was being broadcast almost 24/7 free for all by the national television service
2) People had satellite dishes and could get assorted channels w/o censorship
3) Lahore could get Indian channels with the most vile anti Pak govt propaganda at time
4)BBC urdu was easily accessible with better more open analysis than anything on the current media to every chowkidar with an SW radio

In this context and in the changed relationship with the Americans who wanted inroads into this country (and who fund many of these channels) the Army propaganda machine allowed them to benefit from them, only when the military started using them against the current dictator to get his wardi off (with American support) did the fool (after claiming credit for all of them) clamp down in the mist vile way (worse than Zia ul Fcuk) to punish them and this country saw a media blackout unforseen before.

Now these goddamned a-hole generals like to take credit for everything, converting a propaganda noise generating nonsense as if it were freedom and when it goes against the implicit controls that are understood clamping on them- and denying censorship, the fact is they'd cut the toungue out of every Pakistani if they were to voice dissent that causes trouble for them. Information cannot be controlled, it couldn't before Musharraf and it certainly couldn't even when he clamped down on the media...

hamidm sahib before you flush the toilet, I must remind you that we are not just talking about CJ, there are 60 other judges too; and many more who resigned on the call of their conscience.

I still believe that the future of your superpower and its local chamchas and lotas in this country have been numbered.

Re: # 87

It is a disgusting discussion because it didn't suit your self riteous personality.

Idiots!

Go home to your confy beds now whilst we struggle with the load shedding, mosquitos, heat, and the like

Allah nigehbaan

Re: # 87
Understood HP, this needs to be concluded.

Re: # 86
Wake up Pakistan3, you cant survive without us, and your frequenting here is a proof of that, otherwise you would have gone back to your cage and stayed there.
When the people forget their creator/sustainer the wrath of Allah SWT descends in many shapes and forms like natural disasters, cruel rulers, shortage of food, famine and much more. Not only the Muslims of America but also some from other faiths as well become concerned about the "people" in Pakistan and do all they can to help their brotherhood in that part of the world.
But, it hurts to see the arrogance of some brainless emotional people alike you and all we can say is a prayer that Allah SWT comforts you folks better than he has provided for us so that you get out of this envying, ameen.
According to a Hadith, the Prophet PBUH has recommended that when you see or feel that another person has something that your eyes cant avoid, dont envy, instead pray to Allah SWT(sincerity is a must) seeking for yourself as well, as Allah SWT is pleased when you dont envy and seek.
Come to senses Pakistan3.

How abt people who came to Pakistan after leaving their lands, go back to their original places?

We are the sons of the soil...Pakistan or no Pakistan, we still would own that land, that country.

This is a disgusting discussions. No more posts from me.

Re: # 85

Good. Take them with you. Get them visas and all that.
We have enough people as it is.

You ex-Pakistanis are worse than the Americans and British that we have to deal with.

In the last ten years the price of land has risen beyond what the locals can afford. Because of "overseas Pakistanis" buying "investment land" in this country.

Now we have to compete with you to literally survive hand to mouth, so idiots like you can come once a year and brag about their achievements!

Shame on you, all of you.

Like I said, have your fun with your bid talks and all but don't dictate like you own this land. You don't!

Allah Nigehbaan

#83 Posted by pakistan3

I am not into childish discussions. It is true Pakistan is for the people but the army is not the people. They are the servants. The army and its generals like Musharaf do get credit for ruining that country.

Lastly, we cannot leave our families, our lands, and our fathers and mothers, who still live in Pakistan, in the hands of a bunch of criminals also known as the Pakistan Army Generals.

Civilian demands, ah, those are for some civilized societies not the robbers, theifs and hoodlums who believe in the system of Might is Right.
If you are the first one to slap the other driver after an accident you are the winner this is only a small example.
None other than Musharaf in those living today would have served Pakistan in the manner Musharaf and his govt did and no one did so since the time of Ayub Khan.
But it is our tradition to put holes in the same plate that we eat from, so be it, only Allah SWT can guide the misguided and astray ones, may HE bless the Muslims of Pakistan with better wisdom and resolve, ameen.

Re: # 80

You people are disgusting. You have left this country so get used to that idea. We live here and it is for us to decide what we need.

You self riteous bunch think you have a God given right but you don't.

Leave us poor Pakistanis to solve our own problems. They are not your problems anymore.

Kindest regards

nasah:

These are timeless sayings and have nothing to do with the Italian woman. And Urstruly is right in giving the exact translation of "lundee".

Re: # 80

HP sahib,

you don't half talk a lot of rubbish and you know it.

where was this "freedom" before Mush? Pakistan has gone through similar "dictatorships" before. Yoy don't remember that as you live overseas. We do as we live there day by day. That is the difference.

Like I said before, you overseas Pakistanis should leave us poor Pakistanis to work out our own problems. You donot belong here anymore.

Kindest regards

#79 Posted by pakistan3

"Do you think we should say thank you to Musharraf for that?"
Ridiculous! The credit should go to the people who fought for the Press freedom. Mush was forced to accept it and as soon as the his own power was shaken, he clamped down on the media.

Using your idea, should we also thank him for restricting the media for opposing him?

The media is talking again because of the civilians. As soon as the parliament is gone, Mush and the army will shut down the media again!

Re: # 77

HP sahib,

(Interestingly, what we published underground then is now main stream.)

Do you think we should say thank you to Musharraf for that?

Before Mush, this WAS unthinkable in Pakistan, or wasn't it?

Let us give credit where it is due.

Even in the "democratic" days of Bhutto(Z), there was no such freedom of media.

kindest regards.

Hamid, I admire your way of telling the truth.

"mushy owns the toilet,"

The CJ issue is not abt the man, droopy eyes or not, it is abt a civilian demand and the first one ever in Pakistan's history . So its significance should not be lost.

The civilians may lose out on this as the opposition the toilet owner, the army , and the US currently have more guns in their arsenals.

When a political struggle starts, its initial failure opens the doors for successes in other areas. Though I just don't think that it is a good idea to lose the parliament over the issue but if they do, they will come back even more stronger and perhaps the loss of parliament would also put dents in the Pak army and US Armour in Pakistan. If nothing else, we might just have a new toilet owner and that would be a victory!

#68 Posted by masadi

Your article captures the essence of what’s going on and the game that is being played there.
Shame on Chowk staff for not publishing it.

I would again say that you start sending your article to newspapers in Pakistan. You may hit some self-censorship initially but the way the crisis is deepening, the newspapers too would be forced to publish the truth.

Long time ago in Pakistan, we had an underground press and many political groups used to print their own cyclo-styled magazines. Then we bought a photocopying machine and used to photocopy and distribute magazines.

Interestingly, what we published underground then is now main stream.
You should not rely on Chowk to publish your articles. Chowk has very limited and now dwindling audience due to the level of the discussions here.

There are some Pakistani sites with wider audience and controlled discussions and no Indian trolls. I am sure they will publish you.

Re: # 67

urstruly,

"THe cj issue will flush the political future of all three of them down the toilet. "

..... i beg to disagree, but the cj will be flushed down the toilet along with the toilet paper sticking to him ..... mushy owns the toilet, the toilet paper, the lotas and, if he needs it, he also has the kiyani plunger .....

Re: # 72

I think the correct translation is "....presided over by a useless one-armed woman."

Re: # 72

I think the correct translation is "....presided over by a useless one-armed woman."

"useless" woman? -- doesn't it sound a little chauvinistic -- even for that head of the Itali Congress?

DM -- please explain the background of this 'misogyn' "kahawat"...:)

nasah:

It refers to a place where thieves and pickpockets are the leaders, presided over by a useless woman.

""chor uchakka chowdry tay lundee runn pardhaan"." DM please translate -- sounds spicy.

nasah#64:

I was a fan of Mushy, the dictator, but not of Mushy, the dirty politician.

And I am no fan of the lawless Indian democracy which allows the likes of Delhi massacres of 1984 and Gujarat massacres of 2002. In Punjabi, we call such govt as "chor uchakka chowdry tay lundee runn pardhaan".

later........

My March 8 ilog, written actually a day after the election results came in, originally submitted as an article but was censored by chowk editors. Tahmed praised it by saying every rickshaw driver knew about the ideas therein- which told me that it spoke the voice of the people:

---------------

Legitimizing a Farce: The 2008 Pakistan Election and the Pakistan ArmyPosted: Mar 8, 2008 Sat 09:59 pm Views: 118 Interacts: 3 CHOWK STAFF CENSORED THIS ARTICLE.


Legitimizing a Farce: The 2008 Pakistan Election and the Pakistan Army

M. Asadi

For people who are saying that these elections are a “landmark in Pakistan’s history”, let me remind them that they are repeating in different words what Musharraf had been saying all along in his "dictatorship as the best defense of democracy" rhetoric, that followed last year’s declaration of emergency. In other words, those who are celebrating these elections and their results are trying to justify all the undemocratic maneuvering by the military and its dictator (Musharraf) that described the immediate context of these elections (part of which was the assassination of Benazir Bhutto) and thereby absolving the dictator of all wrong doing by saying it was “worth it” for democracy. Both these "winners", the PML-N and the PPP will fit into the ‘hierarchy of power’ prescribed for politicians by their superiors (the commanders of the Pakistan Army in our case), and if they try moving out of line they will be brought straight back in or sent home packing. Was it not the same "democratic-alliance" before the elections that vowed to boycott these elections, given their dictatorial context and then did a total turnaround to get power, rushing to outdo each other in legitimizing the same structure that is anti-democracy to the core?

To take part in the elections was to legitimize what led up to the elections and that was maneuvering by the military in order to salvage itself and its reputation from a total rebellion by the people to oust the occupiers. To take part in them was to legitimize Musharraf‘s rhetoric about his three stages of getting to “democracy through dictatorial control” where the Army remains firmly in charge. Elections have not brought democracy to this country and will not unless a charismatic leader of the caliber of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, people who in the absence of viable institutions are institutions by themselves, emerges who can move the masses against military domination in political affairs. The Pakistan Army has certainly not disappeared from the power equation, it is still in command, and total command, and will be regardless of the elections, which are merely a way to mask their rule. Such “masking” occurs ever so often when America wants to cut off Pakistan, needs it for some ulterior motive and wants to rescue those (the Pakistan Army) that have been serving it from being rejected violently by the local population through a revolutionary war. No issue facing Pakistan is greater in urgency than the domination of its dominant institution, the Pakistan Army by the American elite and the resulting forced atrophy of the rest of its social institutions including the political and the economic.

By punishing civilian “democratic” governments, the US elite achieve a two prong objective:

i) Discredit civilians and democracy in the eyes of the Pakistani public
ii) Prevent the alienation of the Pakistan Army from America, making it go against the civilian government and then supporting such dictatorship wholeheartedly by economic injections for short term relief- the famously and often tried "stop gap" formula, with its reputation with the people enhanced due to such manipulation of constructed failure of the civilian governments.

The final results of the current elections in Pakistan reveals Army over lordship (checks and balances according to US defined parameters) presiding over a victory to the opposition, when the Army rule legitimacy is at the lowest level that it can possibly get before a civil war breaks out. How do you manipulate this situation to turn it into a win-win for the Pakistan Army: We don't have to go too far back in history to see how it occurs. Every so many years when the Americans want to salvage the Army (for their own purpose) and cut off Pakistan (for their own purpose) they encourage a so-called circumscribed "democracy". Now when the opposition forms a government, the belt will be tightened around Pakistan's neck by the Americans, the situation will get worse, setting the scenario for another military takeover where the previously (hated by people) military now appears all the more attractive. The Army will be salvaged for another almost a decade before this mantra is tried again.

However it is getting more and more tenuous for the Americans to try this formula in Pakistan with every successive Martial Law as they have done in the past because:

i) Every martial law produced unintended consequences, this run produced the lawyer's movement, which has become a thorn in the side of the establishment (military/feudal/political nexus)

ii) The subordinates of the Western elite at the top of the Pakistan Army, due to the geographic distance from their real command (in Washington) feel after a while that they preside over the nation quite independently and develops false notions of “sovereignty”.

For these reasons, the Americans might soon break from the past and try their hand at breaking Pakistan with actual occupation of certain parts because dealing with their proxy occupation force (the Pakistan Army) gets tenuous with every Martial Law. In the meantime let the fools celebrate their victory even as General Kiyani looks towards the near future with hopes of salvaging through such celebration what would have turned out eventually, were the people’s sentiments not manipulated through the political establishment, to be the end of Pakistan's occupation by the Pakistan Army (by a seemingly civil war). Finally, this vote was not so much an endorsement of the PPP or the PML-N as it was a rejection of military rule.

Let the protests continue for therein lies our salvation as a nation.


-------------------------

Re: # 66 HP

What do I think?

I basically agree with you on all three - zardari, ns, and amreeka. The way they are trying to micromanage this issue is quite revealing that how desperate amkika and its local chmachas have become. THe cj issue will flush the political future of all three of them down the toilet.

#61 Posted by Urstruly
Re: # 58 HP
"You missed the correct answer."

No, urstruly. I never miss these things. Even before Bouchar hit the news, I knew at least Zaradri was in constant touch with either the US ambassador or some other CIA operative in the embassy. I am sure Nawaz must be updating some one.
You missed this in my post.

"There are many parties in these dialogs and communications from Pakistan to the outside world are not secured."

The US is micromanaging the talks.
Here is my proposal to break the deadlock and resolve everything...:)

Only the US can do it... it would be minus one, minus one on both sides. The US should give up Musharaf and Nawaz should give up the CJ. It is a win-win situation. Nawaz wants the CJ to deliver Mushy's head to him and if the US delivers Mushy to him, he does not need the CJ.US does not want the CJ to sit in the SC and look for the missing persons.So they both give up one each and after that Nawaz would be a bigger US chamcha, even bigger than Zardari.

what do you think?

The funniest part of the whole thing is there is no war of terror going on anywhere because Pakistanis are busy in the CJ affair. That tells you how hollow the whole thing is.

Dear all loosers,

Question: Can the Judiciary Save the Coalition?

Answer: NO

Now can we move on?

Regards

The US Elite

DM sahib -- despite the fact that "lay gaya jalim chora kar sonay kee janjeer bhee" you do love Musharraf don't you...:)

Re: # 56

"Hamidm sahib:

"president ... zindabad!
"sheikh ... zindabad!

Don't you think you devalued your "Zindabad" to shouts of "unwashed masses"?"

Anil sahib -- you are taking Hamidm's satire a little too seriously -- in reality Hamidm sahib is a satirical anarchist.

Re: # 60 DM

I may be the skeptical one but it is quite obvious that we cannot get out of the hole we are in today, with climbing a ladder of democracy. The corrupt ruling elite, the pirs, the fouji harami, the feudal lords, the drug dealers, and other assorted m/fs are deeply entrenched to keep the status quo alive and well. This system of corruption, inefficiency, and lawlessness has benefitted them immensely. Some of these assholes are probably the richest people in asia today, because of this system. I do not think that anything less than guillotines, firing squads, and lynching can solve our problems. THese assholes have just lost their last chance as well.

Re: # 58 HP

You missed the correct answer. The correct answer is that both of these mutts have gone abroad to take orders from their foreign masters. In case you haven't heard; Richard Boucher is arriving in London today to meet these two assholes and tell them how to get out of this mess, which they created to give this ruling elite a modicum of credibility.

Urstruly:

I was reacting to the post which suggested that the military rule was better than the spectacle of fighting politicians now.

I think that you also missed "what some call democracy" in my post. Even in the US and Canada, the percentage of people voting is not very high. And while elections in India are more or less clean, they were not always so, with booth-capturing and what-not; even then the so-called civil society did not question the system itself. Even in the US, many people think that Al Gore was cheated out of a victory by false counting. That's the western system of democracy for you and it ain't perfect and may not even be suited to the genius of all peoples.

Re: # 55 DM

I think people get pissed at you not because you interfere in their affairs but because of your innanities. You take them some kind of stupid? There is a military dictatoir sitting on top of this banana republic who throws bones to the so called elected ones and make them wag their tails like the mutts they are and you call this a democracy? Less than 10% voting population casts its votes in a scitifically rigged election and this is democracy for you? People are not averse to the unintended consequences of democracy; they just hate it being taken for a ride all the time by these arrogant piece of shit, pro-western ruling elite.

#53 Posted by hamidm2
"can anyone answer a simple question : why are these clowns meeting in london instead of islamabad ?????"

Are you sure you're from pindi cantt? Every paindo on murree road knows the answer(some from the outside know that too). The short answer is they have run out of the safe houses in Islamabad.
The long answer: there are many parties in these dialogs and communications from Pakistan to the outside world are not secured. Mostly agencies listen to politicians conversations.
I am sure Zardari house in Isloo is bugged. Read abt the secured phone and eavesdropping in Bhutto's book from his death cell, if I am hanged. Also Benazir and Nawaz both knew and made sure they never talked abt something important on the govt property. Farooq Laugari when he was President, used to look for rooms in the President house that he thought were not bugged.usually found them on the tenth floor. Even the bedrooms in the PM and the president house are bugged. Now you now why Mushy is still in the army house...

The army and its agencies in Pakistan have loooong reach!

Enough secret information on a nonsecured site...

Re: # 53 pLEASE READ FOLLOWING.
nOW ALL THIS IS DONE SHOW THE CONTEMPT FOR HAMID'S UNWASHED PEOPLE. PEOPLE DO NOT PAY RESPECTS TILL YOU SHOW THEM THEIR PLACE.THIS IS MEETING LIKE BIG COMPANY EXECUTIVE AND ADDS GLAMOR OF DUBAI AND LONDON. MAY BE INDIANS SHOULD START DOING IT, GOING TO LONDON. ALL BADMASH

#25 Posted by ahmedmadani on May 9, 2008 9:14:03 pm
Mr. Masadi, HP , Mujumdar and all...... You all been right in many ways.
CJ stuff helped to damage general and withstanding that same CJ person has accepted and sanctified general. I feel it is sad the poitical parties can distract mainattention from real country facing more not so moral but mortal problems of inflation of essentrial basic like wheat, atta,fuel and general down grading of law and order. Real inflation is definitely raging like wild fire and I can note in the amount spent by my wife and how much reduced things she buys just a year back. It is classical case of elites over concerned about CJ and Z and NS personal politics , like when rome was buring the roman emperor was busy with trivial thgings.
The way things are going is distressing. Look at in short time mr. Z and NS have gone out of country. Why future of pakistan not be decided in Lahore or karachi. Why need to all these leaders of PP and PML NS have to go to Dubai and then to London , tamasha , why take on world tour. Only excuse that can be accepted is MQM Chief is in London and he is crucial player and PPP chief mr. Bilawal Zardari Bhutto are in london. But there is no news anout meeting of 4 giants in london. Even for show when the discontent is at pick and people are very angry , instead of paying attention to read problems , people should feel the leaders are trying best, it absolutely does not appear. If take back yourself and look at problems they are huge like Me. Churchill faced and he stood eith his people, we have problems of Churchillian magnitude but no churchill in Site.
Every day passing is blowing of targets by BLA and religious warrier have met stalement with army. And NS and Z are worried about CJ. Even if CJ is restored and NRO is intact still there is no hope. It appears in first 40days the performance of govt is very negative and regressive. It appears the so called elected people have not offered any thing not even false hope. Rupee is constantly loosing against weakened dollar. Rupee has reached nadir but it is still going down does not seem to hit the bottom.
If these elected people do not do anything be atleast do not go on foreign trips when country is reaching bottom every way.
The talk of C J is totally discordant note and jarring. Tomorrow if if Zeemax goes with his G machine and cuts necks of all "leaders" nobody will miss them or shed tears but people will say make sure and trow in Arabian see for sharks.

Re: # 45

Hamidm sahib:

"president ... zindabad!
"sheikh ... zindabad!

Don't you think you devalued your "Zindabad" to shouts of "unwashed masses"?

Atleast in India these unwashed naare baaz get paid. Here you paid for it through devaluation.

hamidm:

"..... i am ready to call for an annulment of this farcical election and reinstatement of musharraf and sheikh rashid ....."

I try to restrict my comments on Pakistani politics these days, partly because some Pakistanis don't like outsiders commenting on their issues and partly because the life span of any prediction is still too short.

However, since you are very fond of saying "I told you so". let me restate what I said on a board a few weeks ago when everyone was celebrating the victory of democracy. I had said then that the true test would come a year or two later when the politicians have made a mess again and the civil society once again starts clamouring for a military rule. Looks like that such a situation might happen sooner than two years.

See, for good or bad, Pakistani civil society - and the unwashed masses did exactly what the civil society wanted, so don't blame them!- does not have the patience either for corrupt politicians or the khakis. They love democracy as a concept but are not willing to accept its outcome. The Indian civil society, too, is not proud of the outcomes of its democracy which produces corrupt, bickering and uncouth politicians like Lalu, Mulayam, Modi or Maya. But, again, for good or bad, the Indian civil society, while whining against such outcomes, never thinks of changing the process (which some call democracy) that produces such outcomes.

So, the Pakistani civil society has to decide; if it really wants democracy, it has to put up with the unsavoury outcome it produces. If they can't, then the unwashed masses would go for the taliban who do speak the language they understand and the outcome which would be more or less what they promise.

Re: # 53; hamidm sahib
"can anyone answer a simple question"

a simple question that demands very complex answers; maybe someone here is learned enough to rise to the occasion.

where did tahmed go?

can anyone answer a simple question : why are these clowns meeting in london instead of islamabad ????? ...... who is picking up the travel expenses for these jokers and their entourages ? .....

...... i find it intriguing

Yeh Munsif Bhi to Qaidi Hain
Humain insaaf kiya dain gey
Likha hai in key chehron par
Humain jo faisla dain gey
Yeh munsif bhi to Qaidi Hain...

(written by the Late Habib Jalib)

Re: # 48

hp,

"You see on this thread Urstruly sounds like he is abt to commit suicide anytime"

........... every cloud has a silver lining :)

Re: # 48

hp,

.... i will admit that i am particularly upset today because i did not move my rupees into an fe25 account ...... and i blame these two clowns for my considerable losses ........ as far as the unwashed massses are concerned, they could not afford a four rupee roti so it doesn't make any difference if it goes to six or twelve - those poor bas$$&ds are destined to starve in any case ....

..... i am ready to call for an annulment of this farcical election and reinstatement of musharraf and sheikh rashid .....

........bhar mein jaye democracy shamocracy ! ..... i just want the rupee to go back to 60 .......

Illiterate Zardari -- a 'will-work-for-bribe' man of easy virtues -- was a ten ton albatross in Benazir neck -- that always prevented the literate murhooma to achieve her deserving heights in national and internation politics.

Now Zardari is an albatross around Nawaz's neck preventing him to rise for the occasion. Zardari reminds me of the lead 'Kheda Elephant' -- trained by Mahout Musharraf through NRO bribes -- to entice and bring back the wild elephants of Pakistan political jungle -- like Nawaz Sharif for the Musharrf's stables -- from where such useless donkeys like chaudrys are about to be kicked out.

It is timme for Nawaz Sharif to re-evalute his relationship with the monkey on his back -- if the CJ is not reinstated.

Well Hamid,

This is may be true but not because the army would sent them away. Public may just refuse to look at their faces.

I see your disappointment despite your posts to Tahmed.
Like you I think it is bad but the reality is different and we need to be mature enough to deal with it. You see on this thread Urstruly sounds like he is abt to commit suicide anytime.

Re: # 46
Any chance you can give less than 5 years to zardari
it looks like eternity.

hp,

.... in a year or so nawaz sharif will be sitting in dubai and people will be saying, "nawaz sharif? who?" ..... and in another five years zardari will be exile in london and people will be saying "good riddance to bad rubbish" ...

.... it is sad ... really, i mean it

well, well, well !

...... i am glad i did not totally drop my support for musharraf ...... he has these foolish, compromized, corrupt, incompetent and cowardly politicians running from dubai to london and pillar to post while he sits in his camp office and my man sheikh rashid sits across town in lal haveli ........ sheikh sahib, don't worry - just walk down the street and have some piping hot nihari or murgh cholay .... you will be back soon ........ and shame on the people of pindi for deserting a man who has always stood by them ........ lanat on these rajas and their khotis !

president musharraf zindabad!
sheikh rashid zindabad!

#40 Posted by masadi
"but I fail to see any alternative whatsoever..."

Well we will see. I think you will figure out the realities of the Pakistani politics. There may not be an alternate but is it doable or even practical to think now considering the political leadership in Pakistan.

before you say it masadi saab, i'll just go and F__myself saab.

but you need to show me how you do it to yourself once again saab

Re: # 41

masadi saab says "later......... "

how much later saab?
may be we are lucky, never? saab
time for medicine saab, easty is bringing it today saab

later.........

Elections carried out after military manipulations and a declaration of emergency, not to mention the butchering of the main political party's leader, and then dictating to that party whose leadership was usurped by a thug who has no political history in that party, who is trying to legitimize the entire thing including the emergency, where reconciliation means getting everyone on board with the military and destroying the legitimacy of any and every civilian alternative to it, by wiping out the major political parties support, can never get anything accomplished for the people period. That is why the stand on the judiciary is issue #1 facing this nation, that first step will go a long way in changing this structure of manipulation, and it will be a major (not a minor) defeat for the military in political affairs. That is why I say, it is priority #1, regardless of the thuggish nature of the CJ. Call it a mental "block", but I fail to see any alternative whatsoever...

the New Q in the making (PPP) will suffer the same fate as the old Q, it will be converted into nothing if the military is successful in getting what it wants....

HP writes "Only the Pmln has tied its political fortunes with the Judiciary issue. Other parties are not in the assemblies. So only Nawaz would worry abt the fall out."

This is certainly not the case, 81% want the restoration of the judges not because they love the CJ but because they hate Musharraf. When the PPP agreed to this and then waffled, it is seen as being in bed with the military and with Musharraf- that will not sit well with the people of Sindh, just as it will not sit well with the people of Punjab. The N if it quits, resigns and takes to the street will develop "street power" because of the changed situation, it will boost the lawyers movement and bring to an end this farcial elections attempt to maintain the status quo. I have thought this out and I still maintain what I said. This issue is a make or break issue for current political inroads through the present parliament for the people. The military will emerge stronger from the whole scenario if the N decides to stay and the judges are not restored, and the PPP will be destroyed as a people's political party by hobnobbing with the generals and their excrement (Musharraf). No question about it. It is a very different country now and NS can very well emerge as the street politician if he breaks from this farce. His personal grudge against Musharraf gives us hope towards that end. The status quo and working within the same structure that manipulates and corrupts politicians all for the purpose of strengthning the military and the US in our affairs will not achieve anything. The military has meticuloulsy planned the destruction of the PPP and Zardari is helping them achieve their end....

Asadi,
I think you have met some block. It could be the current day to day charged up environments in Pakistan or for some reason you have stopped thinking.

“If they are not restored and it seems they wont be, like I said, it will damage the political parties- as you also seem to concur regarding Sind- and the military will emerge from this stronger than ever.”

You obviously don’t know the Sindh situation. There aren’t very many choices. Sindhi don’t like the deal but they are stuck with the PPP. In fact, it is the situation in Sindh that is forcing the PPP to stay in power. Only the Pmln has tied its political fortunes with the Judiciary issue. Other parties are not in the assemblies. So only Nawaz would worry abt the fall out.

“Therefore this was at this time, the issue #1 facing the country and its future which has apparently been squandered, it can be salvaged by the PML-N quitting the govt, resigning from the parliament,”

It was issue #1 in Punjab and not in any other province.
Quitting the assemblies would be suicidal. Nawaz has no strength on the streets. He is not the type of politician who works the streets. He needs to stay in the coalition and let the lawyers and other parties take the streets. He needs to hang on to the Punjab government for as long as he could to allow the lawyers and others to build momentum. But my thinking is that as soon as he leaves the federal Govt, the army would exert pressure on the PPP to remove his party from power in Punjab. They will use the PPP and not Musharaf to do that. If he quits the assemblies, he would be giving up 90 seats to the army’s handpicked people. We also need to understand that NAWAZ has limits. He is no revolutionary. He is approachable and he will be kept as an alternate to play the musical chairs that the army orchestrated in the 80s and 90s.

You see the things would continue to get grimmer and with economic and the power situation in the country as it is now, no one knows how people would respond. If it gets ugly, we may see the army on the streets but I am sure that the agencies are working on all the scenarios too. The process to break up the PMLn would also start immediately after Nawaz leaves the Fed government.

The poor people of pakistan seeking the rule of law in the country and asking for CJs restoration should realise that the entire country and all walks of society in pakistan are corrupt, and pakistan deserves euthenasia.

Cry pakis cry


33pc of exports are fake, minister told



By Parvaiz Ishfaq Rana


KARACHI, May 9: The federal commerce minister was briefed about the issue of fraudulent exports in a meeting of the Export Advisory Committee held in Islamabad recently to discuss the new trade policy.

Shahid Khaqan Abbasi was informed that certain exporters mis-declared their goods to take undue advantage of the export incentives. They are sending cotton/textile waste in the name of leather garments to claim higher rate of duty drawback, a source privy to the meeting told Dawn.

A visionary pakistani.

Political future


AS of today the following scenario best fits our political future: Pervez Musharraf and Asif Ali Zardari cannot afford to reinstate Iftikhar Chaudhary. The May 12 deadline passes without event.

The Pakistan Muslim League (N) is forced to quit the coalition. The lawyers, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (Qazi group), the PML(N), the TI, society as a whole take to the streets. Everything comes to a standstill and there is chaos.

Mr Musharraf is happy, the Americans are delighted, Mr Zardari goes away to enjoy his billions and Mr Kayani takes over to bring peace and prosperity to the nation and promises elections in 60 days.

HAROON PARACHA
Karachi

Hp

"So stop crying over the CJ. I hope people keep fighting and someday you will have more than one principled CJ."

The CJ is no hero, he is as corrupt and as partial as any one before him and after him. Only fact is that he turned out to be anti mushy that is all which found a vibe with not the paki public, but with a few lawyers.

This CJ was not impartial or upheld the law, his talk about burying the doctrine of necessity whih has been upheld and found valid by the supre court several times, he wanted to bury it.

Hence he was sacked, because he was planning to unseat mushy.

It will be the doom of pakistan when more such CJs emerge.

Coincinding with Zardari's meeting with Altaf Hussein yesterday was the meeting of the whore (US Ambassador) with the MQM leadership in Karachi yesterday, not to mention the US invitation to the mayor of Karachi who is/was in the US this past week, and the meeting in Dubai that Anne W(hore) Peterson had with the MQM in Dubai two weeks back. Seems like micro managing political alliances to me. If Musharraf wasn't there the N would just as soon blend into the status quo, it is a blessing for us that he is, so the N has a grudge, and if taken to its logical conclusion (the restoration of the judges and the removal of the a-hole) it will be more beneficial to the political process in this country than having no a-hole to begin with. The 9 years that he destroyed this country piece by piece is lost, than can never be recovered...

HP writes "Aitzaz kept warning them in the court for at least a week that emergency is coming but they ignored him until 3rd Nov and then too, they did not issue a stay until late in the evening."

Like I mentioned in my first post here there was a disconnect between the lawyers movement and the judiciary when they let Musharraf go ahead with his election, they protested and that protest did make a difference be it incremental- that was my point, now it will make a more than incremental change if they are restored because the civilian government and not only the lawyer's movement would have won a major victory against the military/US, the change would be greater than before and that is what I guaranteed, let it happen (though the powers that be wont let it) and you'll see........

HP writes "Do you really believe that Zadari and Nawaz did not know what the hurdles would be? .."

Zardari made a deal with the devil, regarding Nawaz like I said earlier, he has a personal axe to grind against the a-hole in the presidency, which has kept him on the right track, the track that is in tune with the political movement of the lawyers and one that will salvage his party even as Zardiari, who illegally took over the PPP, the nations only real political movement, is going to destroy it on behalf of the military........Incorporation and appeasement will result in the same old subordinate political areana, we need head on confrontation at this time when the military's rep with the people is at its lowest and in that the personal grudge of NS against the a-hole has provided a unique opportunity to the people of Pakistan...

HP writes "This is actually no argument at all. The Judges had a limit and even though they were under pressure from the lawyers, they managed to hold for enough time for the Army House to finish the Judiciary.."

It was actually a very good argument, there was a qualitative change in the relationship of the judiciary viz-a-viz the military, and now if they would be restored I can guarantee that it will be damaging to the military, its excrement and the US, that is why they are opposing it- that was another part of the argument. If they are not restored and it seems they wont be, like I said, it will damage the political parties- as you also seem to concur regarding Sind- and the military will emerge from this stronger than ever. Therefore this was at this time, the issue #1 facing the country and its future which has apparently been squandered, it can be salvaged by the PML-N quitting the govt, resigning from the parliament, calling the election farce (which was to salvage the military) and joining with the lawyers and raising hell, the Army needs to be on the streets and the people need to take care of them, otherwise the nation is on its deathbed, no ifs, ands or buts about it...............

#15 Posted by Urstruly
“That is where you are wrong. The judicial process does not and cannot work on perceptions (of corruption), it works on hard evidence, witness, and letter of the law.”

You are talking abt some ideal situation, not Pakistan. This is one country where the Supreme Courts manufactured laws on the fly to help the people in power.

Look your whole post is based on one person. That person cannot remain the CJ forever. And if he wants to support someone else, he can always change his mind.

His restoration is an issue when it is related to Mushraf and his unconstitutional actions but the problem in Pakistan is not Musharaf or the CJ. The problem is the Army which clearly has sold its soul to the US.

You cannot beat that army with one CJ here and there. His restoration would help but that is not going to stop the army from taking over some other time. In fact, the break up in dialog would help people understand the issues clearly and we may see some more militancy against the army.

The fight against the army will take a long time and I learned it a long time ago. Unfortunately, your political baptism was with the JI types who looked for immediate gratification in politics at that time. The Pak army would not let go of power. It will take some major and long hard efforts to get rid of them.

So stop crying over the CJ. I hope people keep fighting and someday you will have more than one principled CJ.

#23 Posted by masadi
“If that period produced such pressure to change an institution's historical role, prompting the general (then) to do what he did (his motive was also to save his uniform then, but the Americans directly got it off), imagine what the pressure would be on a restored judiciary, restored by civilian dictate to do the right thing. I believe my points are very solid...”

This is actually no argument at all. The Judges had a limit and even though they were under pressure from the lawyers, they managed to hold for enough time for the Army House to finish the Judiciary. You can check the record, Aitzaz kept warning them in the court for at least a week that emergency is coming but they ignored him until 3rd Nov and then too, they did not issue a stay until late in the evening.
I understand that political activism needs some hope to keep it going but you are not an activist and should be able to figure out the whole thing.

I am not against the restoration of judges. I think it should be done but I also think the political parties did not handle it well enough. Do you really believe that Zadari and Nawaz did not know what the hurdles would be? Was Nawaz really taking that as an easy issue? I also know for sure that Zardari had apprised Nawaz of all the pressures he was under. People in Sindh are upset too. Zardari knew there will be some political backlash but really choices were very limited. The US came out strongly for Musharaf. The army cannot go against the US even if it means country going to dogs.

Re: # 26 General's departure will make main benefactors of country USA and China and Saudi and all muslim nations angry and sad at same time.

Only foreign minister seems to be doing work. He went to china with president. Also he was amd mr.Z is of opinion departure of general will make our major benefactor USA and China.
Hope he also pays attention to Kashmir problem as Indians are getting free run and that can lead to war. Recent Launching by F-16 cruse missile was greatly satisfying to people as not no major dam , factory or city can be protected against missiles cruse type ground hugging and closing fast on target by india disturbs indian military planners.
"“Time has come we have to look towards East,” he said, citing the “all-weather friend” China and regional economic forums such as the Asean on which Pakistan “must put more focus”.

The minister, who accompanied President Pervez Musharraf during a visit to China last month, said Beijing was ready to give cheap credit to help Pakistan’s development programme and its leaders had promised to encourage its major companies to increase investment in Pakistan at a time when investors from other countries hesitated to come here."
It only general and defence chief are working made working visit to china to strengthen special relationship. Rupee is sinking only good out of is exporters have edge of indian and china exports.
Rest all bad, its darkness at noon and general as sun is in deoression phase not good for country

Mr. Masadi, HP , Mujumdar and all...... You all been right in many ways.
CJ stuff helped to damage general and withstanding that same CJ person has accepted and sanctified general. I feel it is sad the poitical parties can distract mainattention from real country facing more not so moral but mortal problems of inflation of essentrial basic like wheat, atta,fuel and general down grading of law and order. Real inflation is definitely raging like wild fire and I can note in the amount spent by my wife and how much reduced things she buys just a year back. It is classical case of elites over concerned about CJ and Z and NS personal politics , like when rome was buring the roman emperor was busy with trivial thgings.
The way things are going is distressing. Look at in short time mr. Z and NS have gone out of country. Why future of pakistan not be decided in Lahore or karachi. Why need to all these leaders of PP and PML NS have to go to Dubai and then to London , tamasha , why take on world tour. Only excuse that can be accepted is MQM Chief is in London and he is crucial player and PPP chief mr. Bilawal Zardari Bhutto are in london. But there is no news anout meeting of 4 giants in london. Even for show when the discontent is at pick and people are very angry , instead of paying attention to read problems , people should feel the leaders are trying best, it absolutely does not appear. If take back yourself and look at problems they are huge like Me. Churchill faced and he stood eith his people, we have problems of Churchillian magnitude but no churchill in Site.
Every day passing is blowing of targets by BLA and religious warrier have met stalement with army. And NS and Z are worried about CJ. Even if CJ is restored and NRO is intact still there is no hope. It appears in first 40days the performance of govt is very negative and regressive. It appears the so called elected people have not offered any thing not even false hope. Rupee is constantly loosing against weakened dollar. Rupee has reached nadir but it is still going down does not seem to hit the bottom.
If these elected people do not do anything be atleast do not go on foreign trips when country is reaching bottom every way.
The talk of C J is totally discordant note and jarring. Tomorrow if if Zeemax goes with his G machine and cuts necks of all "leaders" nobody will miss them or shed tears but people will say make sure and trow in Arabian see for sharks.

asadi,
Will come back to your posts later.. Looks like this thing is over. Are the Lawyers and PMLn going to take over the streets now?

one more thing:

HP writes "One the one hand you claim that “Judicial Crisis pre November was manufactured by the Pak Army/US in order to get Musharraf out of his uniform” and then you turn around and propose that the same judge would be people’s representative after the restoration. That does not work."

Actually it did work, you saw as empirical fact that the judges after siding with Musharraf by holding objections against his elections "unmanageable" were later under tremendous pressure by the lawyers movement and were willing to reconsider which prompted Musharraf's Nov emergency. If that period produced such pressure to change an institution's historical role, prompting the general (then) to do what he did (his motive was also to save his uniform then, but the Americans directly got it off), imagine what the pressure would be on a restored judiciary, restored by civilian dictate to do the right thing. I believe my points are very solid...

g'night

HP writes "Do you think this crisis will be over if by any stretch of imagination, the Judges are restored? I don’t think so. ....The US has not dropped its plan in the mideast or against Iran. Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture. How could the restoration of judges be the biggest issue in the country when Baluchistan and Parts of NWFP could fall off the country’s map in a very short period of time?"

You know we agree on these things regarding the US, NWFP and Baluchistan, that said, the "Pakistan (or Islam) khatray mey hai" defense has been used by the Pak Army to do all kinds of BS in this country. Why I consider the restoration of the judges to be the priority #1 in Pakistan these days (for the sake of its people) is as I stated, the judiciary that a military dictator had to remove using his uniform, if it is allowed back by civilian dictate sets a very bad precident for the military, it further breaks with the past role of this institution as a legitimizer of military rule. The CJ might be an AH who was supported by the military/US to take the uniform off musharraf, and also the lawyers movement was financed and organized by them but it blossomed into something that they had not expected, a genuine political movement, restoration of the judiciary is of paramount importance for the civilian leadership otherwise they are fast becomming another Q that will strengthen the military and weaken the political parties in this country, as I explained in my post.

Now, the US might want to break up Pakistan but its people are already broken, the structure needs to change to unbreak them, and if the judiciary is not restored NOTHING changes, period while restoring them adds not only legitimacy to the civilian leadership with the people, it fragements the absolute power of the military in political affairs which btw is unprecidented (therefore it sets a bad precident for the military)in the history of Pakistani politics under the military, a defeat for the military by the civilan leadership of this country- that is why it is not being allowed. If it was so benign to the military and the US role in our affairs, they would have gladly allowed it but they are resisting it- proof that what I say is correct.

Further, make no mistakes about it the last victory in these struggles will be of the people (as ZAB also stated btw), the military will not give up without a fight, there will be bloodshed which will eventually fragment the military itself, short of that there will be no change, this prinicpled stand on restoration of the judges (and it is not about the individual) is a step in the right direction towards challenging the military and defeating it. You should be foremost in supporting it. On the other hand, leaving it be, transforming PPP and N into the new PML-Q will not only destroy those two as political movements, they will keep the status quo going. Regardless of what happens, the US will go ahead with its plans and our best hope is not in the Pakistan Army saving us from them, the best bet are the people and a democratic leadership that is not possible without the restoration of the judiciary at present. You need to reevaluate your stand on this...

p.s by bad precident I did not mean the military would have some conscience, they would like I said gladly sacrifice the last among us for their perversions, it would set a bad precident by making it clear to all that they can be defeated by the civilian leadership, the people will do the rest like I said, on the streets...........