When a Knock at the Door is Not Enough

Aisha boudi,

Nice to see you back on chowk. Dunno what the actual stats for domestic violence are- the 25% you have quoted seems genuine enough. And you are right in that this percentage may not vary too much across class, caste, religion and ethnicity and surprisingly perhpas even education levels at least in the subcontinent. Wealth and "education" do not seem to have made too much impact on the males psyche and even many woman sadly seem to have internalised it.

Regards

Disturbing.

#1 Jum dada

Dada, as usual, you are totally clueless!

Aisha Sarwari never left this web site. She has always been here. She has been “filling in” as the editor ever since – never mind! (The state of typos in some of the FP pieces is proof enough.)

This beating episode happened apparently a while ago. It was one of the “rude awakening” events the author encountered upon returning to Pakistan from Amrikka. How could this sort of thing happen in the land of the Jinnah, she kept asking herself. She racked her brains hard to the best of her limited abilities but could come up with no satisfactory answers.

She felt very helpless that she could not do anything for the lady who got beaten up. She wanted to but when she broached the topic with YLH, he said:

Paagal ho gai ho kya?! Ye Pakistan hai! YahaN sabhie ek dusray ko peet-tay rehtay haiN! Besides, woh kambakhat landlord hai! If he kicks us out of this ELITE F/11 sector, where will we go? Nobody will let us into this sector ever again!

As always, YLH’s words held merit. So the author put the sad memory away – pushed it under that proverbial rug along with all the other dust and dirt and assorted unwanted-feelings and tried her level best to forget it. It was not easy to forget but when you have to take care of three children (including and especially, YLH) it CAN be done!

So, she tucked those memories away and tried to forget it ever happened. It almost worked…

Until Shandana sent in HER piece! (www.chowk.com/articles/14076)

Then, as she tried to read that piece, all of a sudden, it came back with a vengeance.

She could suppress it no more!

What had been a mere nagging feeling – that she COULD have done more for the beaten-up lady– now became a monster gnawing at her insides – telling her loud and clear and in no uncertain terms:

You SHOULD have done more, you dar-poak lady! And you should have never listened to that dar-poak marad!

And she kept asking herself – What COULD I do?

Then it hit her – hey, I can write a piece on it…

And I can even slip it in BEFORE Shandana’s!

So, presto!

Now you know (as Paul Harvey would say) - the REST of the story!

How do I know all of the above sordid, depressing details?!

Elementary, my dear Jum!

I guessed it.

Beej Bhaiyya,

Re:#3

Your post has certainly left me totally clueless!!!

Aisha boudi's piece has been published before Ms. Minhas's so I dont know how you have come to your conclusions.

Regards

This hits a little too close to home. I grew up with a father who had a very short fuse which once lit, sometimes brought violent results. And back in the day, his behavior might have been explained away much easier than my mother's for having walked away.

There are two profound differences though, a woman in the west is more mobile and flexible in terms of walking out of a relationship and even moving into a shelter with her kids, and she is more likely to get the abuser to incur some damage, be it financial, social or legal.

It is good that you knocked at the door, Aisha. It is not enough, but it's something. . . Some women do feel empowered to take action, but as you said the flexibility and mobility to do so is less. . .

Re: # 5; ana bibi

I am sorry to read about your experiences. Domestic violence in the west was the key 'argument' used to 'discredit' Azra Rashid's article.

Whilst living in Pakistan, I observed a lot of this first hand, within extended family etc. Violence can also be psychological and verbal and I observed that being used against many female members of my family close to me. It is the form that probably doesn't even get classed as violence at times; the constant 'putting down/in place' of the wives, sisters and even mothers by adolescent males.

Totally shameful; the 'face-saving' culture demands we brush it under the carpet as it is "ghar di gal"; dirty laundry and all that. This is what I mean about things that REALLY disgrace my 'honour'; not some jumped up Indian calling Pakistan/Islam all the names under the sun.

It would appear I do have some "Izzat" afterall; contrary to Zee's assertions on another board (jis ki izzat na ho us ki bey-izzati keya hogi etc).

Khuda Hafiz

akcheema,

... contrary to Zee's assertions on another board (jis ki izzat na ho us ki bey-izzati keya hogi etc

That's not what I said. I said "Jis kis ayzti nahi, us ki bayzti kia?"

akcheema:

thank you.

I did not read Azra Rashid's article. The interacts turned me off. (I have had this bad habit of reading the interacts first since Chowk changed its format)

I hope that we do not get into the same arguments here, because violence against women is pretty much everywhere. It is not about east, west, or what belief system you belong to, or educated vs. uneducated.

It is the resources and redress that is the issue here. Rather than just saying or thinking "Same old thing" to the point where there is danger of even more abuse and damage. . .what do we as a society do to be there for wives, mothers, sisters etcetera. . .and if I can go beyond that, what to do for the men who assert their authority by means of a fist, among other things.

Nicely written Aisha.

Regards

Ras

good essay, it's amazing what kind of crippling fear abusive men instill in their wives, i once tried to get a battered woman to leave her husband, even forced her to speak to a social worker, but she feared for her children's lives and stayed

First, 'when a knock ON the door is...' is better.

Second..., kaka is confused about whether you lived on the floor above the characters or adjacent to them..

Third..

'One needs to break these walls and protect these brave women to be truly empowered by being mobile'

Why are these women 'brave'? Is lionizing the people you pretend to side with, the only way to feel anything for them? What happens if these women are not 'brave'? Will you still write about them?

Aisha,

Your description of what transpired has left me disturbed.

First, it was courageous of you to go knock on the door.

It's sad. In our culture the woman first has to "obey" the father, and brothers and then the husband, and if her lucky streak continues: her sons!.

It must be so hard for her to decide what she can do next. Although it is possible for her to move away, find a job (if she is educated) and start her own life, Pakistan is just a terribly difficult place for something like that.

This husband of her needs to be thrashed soundly. Asshole is acting out cause she's physically smaller than him (I'm guessing).

If this asshole is beating her so loudly that you can hear it on another section, the loud thumps etc, I fear this woman will be killed by this asshole one day. Hopefully her family cares about her and she will reach out to them, and they will take her away. The police is certainly NOT who you'd want to involve.

It is horrible and disturbing, and all too prevalent. I pray things change fast.

Re: # 11

There is a certain amount of bravery required in order to stick one's neck out, I have to grant this.

However, in this case, the half-hearted bravery may have been counter-productive.

(1) It proves to the lady being beaten up that she won't get any help even if she TELLS others that she is being beaten up. They will simply nod, say "oh - okay!" and walk away.

(2) The perpetrator (the beating husband) realizes that all he has to do is to keep it a bit down and the lady next door will be cool with it, because after all, she did nothing.

In fairness, it ought to be pointed out that very FEW people would want to get too involved. Most of them are too busy with their own problems.

what is this? annual wife beaters week

Re: # 12

[I pray things change fast.]

Hurricane dear, the problem is too many people are busy "praying" instead of trying to address it - especially the mullahs who makes sure that women stay subservient!

Re: # 14

Urstruly miaN, be candid with us. Did you or didn't you ever raise hands at Mrs. Urstruly?!

bj,

u r an idiot not to mention thorough chutya. read the quote about who the 'brave' women are supposed to be..

Re: # 17

Dear hamzaad, I already elaborated the (guessed) reasons for the autor writing this piece in #3.

My GUESS is that Ms. Sarwari still carries a lot of guilt for not being able to do more than she did.

But it is easy for individuals like me (and perhaps you) to sit somewhere in a different country and pontificate. Unfortunately, when one runs into the REAL thing, it is a lot less easy.

First, one does not really KNOW the wife-beater. A violent man, if in bad mood enough, would not stop with his wife and would not spare innocent third parties who just happen to walk in by chance (as Ron Goldman unfortunately found out too late!).

Secondly, if you are yourself a woman, you are in a bit of the same weakened position as the victim being beaten up.

Third, if you complain, most people will only provide lip service. They will not do much against the wife-beater. There is a tendency to side with the man, using false logic like "she is no doodh-ki-dhoyee, either" etc. Some of these men may be afraid to do anything lest their own wife gets the "wrong ideas".

Fourth, the mullah will invariably take the man's side and he probably holds considerable sway.

Fifth, the law enforcement mechanism suffers from similar type of bias as most men in the society at large. Even if one finds a farishta law enforcement individual who cares and tries to bring the guilty to task - how the heck he can do without witnesses, evidence, etc. Without those, if he dispenses "justice" he is breaking the law himself, so how does that send a good message?

It is easy to talk about gelding the perpetrator but as most people know...

...human beings are far more complex than horses!

Inge Genefke, Rehabilitation and Research Center for torture Victims (RCT), Copenhagen, states:

“The aim of torture is to destroy a person as a human being, to destroy their identity and soul. It is more evil than murder…. Today we know that survivors of torture can be helped to regain their health and strength, and in helping them we take the weapon from their torturers.”

The smallest step taken in the right direction goes a long way. Great piece, Aisha.


TS

Its real and happens everywhere. However, by admitting the preveance I do not mean to condone it.
Well wiritten, thouh ypu could have filled in pieces to make it more informative.

Most of the wives get beat up beacuse they can't control their tongues. This attribute of women makes them probably the most annoying creature on this planet. This is their realm of excellence where they can easily crush the soul of even some of the most strog willed men. The women usually get beat up when they try o be oversmart and overdo it. I think women should take it slow but steady and it will always work out. In Gestapo and SS most of interrogators were women. In Guantanomo bay and Abu GHraib, women have been quite successful in crushing human souls. They made pyramids of their success there.

Re: # 21

MiaN, everything you attribute to the "wives who get beat up" are also applicable to males - (1) can not control tongue, (2) most annoying creature on the planet, (3) trying to act over-smart, etc.

Why don't the MEN get beat up?!!

The answer is simple, like much else within Pakistan, in the end it is the physical control and domination which wins there. And mullahs like you are active promoters of that mindset!

Re: # 21 wah, wah kya baat!

Urstruly very very droooooollllll!

Atthe core is an interesting statement/inquiry/question

"why do woman make more successful interrogators?"

the rest is grist for the interact mill of chowk.

But would you care to expand on this issue you so indelicately raised.

hang on....on second thoughts...urstruly you are saying actually its the case of

Husband torture

and not

wife beating

....man urstruly you need to change your nic....most will take the bait for they know your nic very very well...

should be "most will not take the bait".....

I swear by the great gods and goddesses that I really really typed the correct stuff in....

Re: # 21

urstruly,

... spoken like a true jihadi ! ...... does this mean that, like ata mohammed, you don't want women at your funeral ???

Re: # 26

MiaN, given a choice, urstruly would not have a woman present even at his birth!

Somehow, nature arranged it otherwise! He perhaps resents that fact and has been trying to settle the score ever since.

beej, you heard of immaculate conception,....right.....this could be the first case of a male virgins immaculate conception...ever thought of that ....

religion and science are fascinating subjects maybe you could explore it.....

Re: # 26; hamidm sahib,

Why do you think "islamist" muslims are so 'karakht'(calus) and devoid of normal feelings?

Urstruly, I hope every muslim on this board slaps you virtually for making such an idiotic comment. In the event they get all pious and find excuses. I will surely come back to tear you a new one.

#21 Urstruly, what would your mother have thought, I wonder? I hope she does not have internet access if she is alive. You would have made her weep in shame at raising such a son if she could read it.
As for your wife, what she must suffer is obvious. I hope she manages to escape. You do realise many jurisdictions accept domestic violence as enough provocation to let the victims, usually women off charges for man-slaughter or murder on the basis of self-defence.

Oh sure, now make me the bad guy for speaking out the truth. Oye zann mareedo, you remind me of the punjabi proverb: sou jootian, sou piyaz. Your misery is two fold just like the proverb. One one hand your women zaleel you day in and day out and on the other hand they make you speak out for "their" right to zaleel you too. Sharam karo.

Re: # 32 thats way the Urstruly!

that was the duck, then jab, jab, left we are waiting for the right on the chin for the KO(T)

So if someone beat your mother your sister or your daughter to a pulp for talking back to them repeatedly (and hence being a "soul crusher") youd have no problems with that? Or is your heartlessness limited to other women?

Most men are stupid alright but i figure even most men can understand that wife beating is sick, sad and horribly common in our society. Maybe you are just a very simple person and cant understand how inappropriate you sound. Maybe you just like to aggravate people ...maybe you were baiting someone ....in either case your post came off as sick and disturbed....

Men who speak out for womens rights are the strong ones, its whiny little spineless insecure biatches afraid of having their "souls crushed" who have to beat a woman (or justify it) to feel strong. Pathetic.

"There are two profound differences though, a woman in the west is more mobile and flexible in terms of walking out of a relationship and even moving into a shelter with her kids, and she is more likely to get the abuser to incur some damage, be it financial, social or legal. "

Aisha,
this is the unfathomable love for her kids that retrain her to be in this relationship and bear all the suffering herself Because there is a concept and there is also much reality in it that Kids Suffer alot w/o mother or father and their is visible difference among kids who grew up w/o mother or father rather than other normal kids.

#21 Urstruly, Did Prophet Mohammad ever roughed up his wives? If not, why not?

#36-Shah Sahib, are you trying to say that it is preferable for kids to be exposed to their mother getting beat up over to be raised by a single parent? If that’s what you are saying, then that’s the sickest way to look at things. The man who beats his wife belongs in a mental clinic than to be given the responsibility of raising kids. No wonder, the boys who are raised by such households turn out to be like wifebeaters.

Re: # 38
You took me wrong.i am not in support of WifeBeater At All.
i have just told the one reason that compelled the Eastern women to be in the same relationship unlike Western Women.

Re: # 38
You took me wrong.i am not in support of WifeBeater At All.
i have just told the one reason that compelled the Eastern women to be in the same relationship unlike Western Women.

Women in Islam Versus Women in the Judaeo-Christian Tradition
The Myth and The Reality
By: Sherif Abdel Azim, Ph.D.- Queens University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada

PART 9 - WIFE'S PROPERTY

The three religions share an unshakeable belief in the importance of marriage and family life. They also agree on the leadership of the husband over the family. Nevertheless, blatant differences do exist among the three religions with respect to the limits of this leadership. The Judaeo-Christian tradition, unlike Islam, virtually extends the leadership of the husband into ownership of his wife.

The Jewish tradition regarding the husband's role towards his wife stems from the conception that he owns her as he owns his slave. This conception has been the reason behind the double standard in the laws of adultery and behind the husband's ability to annul his wife's vows. This conception has also been responsible for denying the wife any control over her property or her earnings. As soon as a Jewish woman got married, she completely lost any control over her property and earnings to her husband. Jewish Rabbis asserted the husband's right to his wife's property as a corollary of his possession of her: "Since one has come into the possession of the woman does it not follow that he should come into the possession of her property too?", and "Since he has acquired the woman should he not acquire also her property?" Thus, marriage caused the richest woman to become practically penniless. The Talmud describes the financial situation of a wife as follows:

"How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his...... Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband..." (San. 71a, Git. 62a)

The fact of the matter is that the property of a Jewish female was meant to attract suitors. A Jewish family would assign their daughter a share of her father's estate to be used as a dowry in case of marriage. It was this dowry that made Jewish daughters an unwelcome burden to their fathers. The father had to raise his daughter for years and then prepare for her marriage by providing a large dowry. Thus, a girl in a Jewish family was a liability and no asset. This liability explains why the birth of a daughter was not celebrated with joy in the old Jewish society (see the "Shameful Daughters?" section). The dowry was the wedding gift presented to the groom under terms of tenancy. The husband would act as the practical owner of the dowry but he could not sell it. The bride would lose any control over the dowry at the moment of marriage. Moreover, she was expected to work after marriage and all her earnings had to go to her husband in return for her maintenance which was his obligation. She could regain her property only in two cases: divorce or her husband's death. Should she die first, he would inherit her property. In the case of the husband's death, the wife could regain her pre-marital property but she was not entitled to inherit any share in her deceased husband's own property. It has to be added that the groom also had to present a marriage gift to his bride, yet again he was the practical owner of this gift as long as they were married.

Christianity, until recently, has followed the same Jewish tradition. Both religious and civil authorities in the Christian Roman Empire (after Constantine) required a property agreement as a condition for recognizing the marriage. Families offered their daughters increasing dowries and, as a result, men tended to marry earlier while families postponed their daughters' marriages until later than had been customary. Under Canon law, a wife was entitled to restitution of her dowry if the marriage was annulled unless she was guilty of adultery. In this case, she forfeited her right to the dowry which remained in her husband's hands. Under Canon and civil law a married woman in Christian Europe and America had lost her property rights until late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. For example, women's rights under English law were compiled and published in 1632. These 'rights' included: "That which the husband hath is his own. That which the wife hath is the husband's." The wife not only lost her property upon marriage, she lost her personality as well. No act of her was of legal value. Her husband could repudiate any sale or gift made by her as being of no binding legal value. The person with whom she had any contract was held as a criminal for participating in a fraud. Moreover, she could not sue or be sued in her own name, nor could she sue her own husband. A married woman was practically treated as an infant in the eyes of the law. The wife simply belonged to her husband and therefore she lost her property, her legal personality, and her family name.

Islam, since the seventh century C.E., has granted married women the independent personality which the Judaeo-Christian West had deprived them until very recently. In Islam, the bride and her family are under no obligation whatsoever to present a gift to the groom. The girl in a Muslim family is no liability. A woman is so dignified by Islam that she does not need to present gifts in order to attract potential husbands. It is the groom who must present the bride with a marriage gift. This gift is considered her property and neither the groom nor the bride's family have any share in or control over it. In some Muslim societies today, a marriage gift of a hundred thousand dollars in diamonds is not unusual. The bride retains her marriage gifts even if she is later divorced. The husband is not allowed any share in his wife's property except what she offers him with her free consent. The Quran has stated its position on this issue quite clearly:

"And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, Of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer" (Quran 4:4)

The wife's property and earnings are under her full control and for her use alone since her, and the children's, maintenance is her husband's responsibility. No matter how rich the wife might be, she is not obliged to act as a co-provider for the family unless she herself voluntarily chooses to do so. Spouses do inherit from one another. Moreover, a married woman in Islam retains her independent legal personality and her family name. An American judge once commented on the rights of Muslim women saying: " A Muslim girl may marry ten times, but her individuality is not absorbed by that of her various husbands. She is a solar planet with a name and legal personality of her own."

Friday, December 29, 2000

U.S. Freedoms Give American Muslims Influence Beyond Their Numbers

By TERESA WATANABE, Times Religion Writer


Omaima Bukhari is a precocious Muslim in Maryland. She's 20, fascinated by Islam, computer science and psychology. She discusses everything with her father, Zahid, who works at Georgetown University and counts as friends imams and sheiks from Al Azhar, the prestigious seat of Islamic learning in Cairo.
Last December, she attended an engagement party for relatives in Pakistan. The bride-to-be was sobbing in the next room. So Bukhari marched before the family elders and demanded to know: Did you ask for her consent to the marriage? No? You have to! This right is from Allah, conveyed by our prophet Muhammad!
The women were silent. The men were arguing. These were men with beards down to their chests. This was a small rural village. This was a place where women have only just begun to receive educations.
But Bukhari was quoting the Koran. She was quoting a hadith (an account of the prophet's life). She was insisting that the villagers' treatment of women was based on cultural practices, not the faith of Islam. No one could argue with her sources.
Finally, the graying patriarch of the Bukhari clan delivered judgment: Omaima is right. Consent must be obtained.
The fiancee eventually granted it. And, as Bukhari prepared to return to America, the old-world patriarch told his new-world descendant, "Granddaughter, you've taught me a lot."
Far from the fatwas--the religious decrees--of hierarchies abroad, American Muslims are slowly but steadily carving their mark on the Islamic world.
Their relatively small numbers, young history and still fledgling organization would seem daunting barriers to wider influence. Of the roughly 1 billion Muslims worldwide, those in the United States are only a tiny fraction, numbering somewhere between 3 million and 10 million.
But a confluence of forces that has made those Americans among the freest, most educated, affluent and diverse Muslims in the world has given them an impact greater than their numbers. Helped by the growing use of English as a language of Islamic discourse and by the ever-spreading world of the Internet, they are self-consciously seeking to influence their religious brethren worldwide.
Moreover, the spirit of the times may be on their side. "The guy with a turban and rifle is out," says Marcia Hermansen, a theology professor at Loyola University Chicago. "The guy drinking a latte with a laptop computer reading Internet fatwas is in."
Provocative Islamic thinkers are flourishing in the climate of America's unparalleled intellectual freedom. They are tackling taboo subjects such as spousal abuse and highlighting the aspects of their nearly 1,400-year tradition that embrace women's rights, human rights and democratic practices.
The sheer diversity of the community here is prompting efforts to promote Islamic models of pluralism. U.S. Muslims include American natives, mainly of African descent, as well as immigrants from more than 50 nations.
American Muslims also are expanding their influence by bringing modern education, business practices and economic development to their homelands through a mushrooming number of nonprofit organizations. More than 300 such groups now raise about $50 million a year for such causes as education and health care, according to Aslam Abdullah, editor of the Los Angeles-based Minaret magazine and president of the American Federation of Muslims From India.
"Muslims all over the world are looking with high expectations toward the ummah [community] in the United States and Canada," says Murad Wilfried Hofmann, a retired German diplomat and Muslim jurist. "Its dynamism, fresh approach, enlightened scholarship and sheer growth is their hope for an Islamic renaissance worldwide."
Working against that hope are the community's weaknesses. American Muslims are divided and sometimes fractious. They struggle with discrimination and comparatively weak political clout at home. They are seen by Muslims elsewhere as generally lacking in the classical Islamic education that would undergird their authority.
Some leaders worry that the powerful forces of assimilation, which homogenize most immigrant groups in the U.S. by the third generation, could weaken the American Muslim identity before it fully consolidates.
Key leaders across the ideological spectrum--from Sheik Hisham Kabbani of the Islamic Supreme Council of America to Nihad Awad of the Council on American-Islamic Relations--voice a common view that Muslims here must get their own house in order before hoping to have a major impact abroad.
But despite the problems, American Muslims present the Islamic world with a seductive new model of modernity, says Sulayman Nyang, a professor of African and Islamic studies at Howard University in Washington.
Until now, the main model in the Islamic world for modernization had been Turkey, which excised Islam from public life in the name of progress. America gives Muslims an alternative--an example of a society in which the faithful are free to be both modern and religious. Here, more women are voluntarily donning the hejab head covering as a mark of religious pride and identity--even rendering it hip with T-shirts touting it as "Good in the 'Hood."
Nyang argues that the potent combination of modernity and piety demonstrated by Muslims in the U.S. could catch on in the Islamic world, offering a compelling alternative to extremism.
The American faces of Islam belong to people like Dany Doueiri and Shamshad Hussain.
Doueiri is a co-founder of one of the world's most popular Web sites on Islam, http://www.islam.org/. Every day, the Los Angeles-based site receives 140,000 hits. More than half the visitors are from outside the United States. They are shown an expanse of Islam that bypasses the divides of cultures, religious sects and schools of Islamic law that often separate Muslims from one another.
For instance, when numerous Bosnian Muslim women were raped by Serbian soldiers during the Balkans conflict, the site was flooded with queries on the Islamic position on abortion. Doueiri says his team presented without judgment two opinions from different schools: one holding that any abortion is forbidden, the other saying that the procedure is allowed for up to 120 days into the pregnancy, after which, adherents believe, the soul enters the body.
The neutral presentation of differing views within the vast Islamic tradition, though rare, is equipping Muslims worldwide to think through their own Islamic practices rather than simply accepting the rulings of the local scholar, Doueiri says.
"This site has brought so much happiness overseas, because people say they find a much more objective point of view than they get from their own scholars," he says.
The rise of the electronic fatwa, sometimes by self-styled experts, dismays some classically trained scholars. But experts say the trend is irreversible.
The Internet, satellite TV and steady gains in literacy are prompting a quiet but dramatic shift in the source of Islamic authority throughout the Muslim world--from political and religious leaders to the common educated people, says Dale F. Eickelman, a Dartmouth College anthropology professor and co-author of the book "New Media in the Muslim World."
Led by Muslims in the West, unprecedented numbers of believers are debating the fundamentals of their faith and practice in a new Islamic reformation, he says.
"Nobody is controlling anymore," Eickelman says. "Even if you're not getting an increase in liberalism or a shift from authoritarianism, you're now getting large numbers of people who know what they're missing."
One pipeline of fresh Islamic views to younger Muslims abroad is the Iqra International Educational Foundation in Chicago. Iqra--the Arabic word for "read" and God's first word to the prophet Muhammad, according to the Koran--is pioneering American-produced, English-language Islamic textbooks. In the last few years, overseas demand has skyrocketed and the foundation now exports tens of thousands of books annually to 16 countries in the Mideast, Asia, the Indian subcontinent and Europe.
The books' distinction, according to managing director Hussain, is that they promote the idea of self-study of the Koran and hadith and present the tradition's essence shorn of regional and sectarian differences.
The quest to crystallize Islam's essence, free of the overlays of cultural tradition, is perhaps most advanced here because America's diversity is forcing Muslims to strive for a common understanding. Doueiri's Internet group, for instance, represents Muslims from both the majority Sunnis and minority Shiites who hail from 30 countries. Doueiri, for example, is an African-born American of Lebanese ancestry.
American Muslims are producing the first modern "hajj model of community," says Agha Saeed, who teaches ethnic studies at UC Berkeley, referring to the annual gathering of Muslims in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.
American Muslims say they are striving to restore their faith to its essence of tolerance and pluralism. Two decades ago, the Islamic Center of Southern California was a pioneer in arguing for an American Muslim identity based on "finding ways in Islam to make bridges to 'the other' and live together," as center co-founder Maher Hathout puts it.
At the time, his was an odd voice among Muslim leaders who were focused inward and viewed America as dar ul-kufr, or "place of unbelievers." Today, the concept is mainstream.
In Westwood, Michael Flemming represents the small but growing number of Muslims who are marrying cross-culturally. An African American graduate student in Islamic studies at UCLA, Flemming says his in-laws from India initially resisted his request to marry their daughter. But that resistance began to melt, he says, after he made his pilgrimage to Mecca.
Still, the challenge of pluralism looms unmet for many. "Some African Americans get the feeling that even with our Muslim brothers, it's still 'us and them,' " Flemming says. "I think the youth, because they've grown up together here, will be able to overcome this."
In the academic arena, striking American voices of Islam belong to people like Khaled Abou el Fadl. The UCLA professor of Islamic law is breaking intellectual ground with bold social critiques based on a blend of classical Islamic training and Western academic grounding. He trained in Egypt and Kuwait and at Princeton and the University of Pennsylvania.
Over the last four years, Abou el Fadl has published searing critiques on sexual abuse, wife-beating and other problems among Muslims, analyzing how Islamic tradition sometimes promotes such behavior. Without America's academic freedom, he says, such scholarship would have been impossible.
Using case studies of mistreated Muslims, Abou el Fadl has admonished the tradition--and present-day imams--for the general silence on incest and sexual abuse. He has challenged divorce laws favoring men and concluded that expectations of blind obedience from women is immoral.
So far, he has not been able to punch a doctrinal hole in the laws of apostasy, although he would like to: He says he is morally offended by the laws, which punish those who leave Islam with penalties of death or imprisonment in many countries.
His unflinching scholarship is controversial, but it is gaining notice abroad. Abou el Fadl has been asked to lecture in the Mideast, North Africa and Europe and has received e-mail from around the world. Some people chastise him, but he says the vast majority back his efforts to reinterpret the Islamic legal tradition.
He has no patience for those who claim that Islam is perfect.
"Instead of being brave and gutsy in confronting the flaws and shortcomings of the tradition, they are being apologists," Abou el Fadl says. "It is our moral obligation as Muslims to speak the truth."
American Muslims have even established an organization that counts gender equality as a core value. Jamal Al-Muslimeen was established in 1977 in Minneapolis and now has chapters in Nigeria, Bangladesh, Ghana, Britain, Germany and Canada, according to Ali Siddiqui, an imam based in Chino who is a member of the group.
Siddiqui tries to walk the talk, delivering sermons at area mosques on spousal abuse as a consequence of misplaced ideas of male superiority. When he marries couples, he tells them that Allah has made women and men equal. Sometimes, he says, he is challenged--especially by elders from remote areas.
Such experiences temper his idealism about the impact American Muslims can have in changing values both here and abroad.
"We have a lot to contribute, but it's a very slow process," Siddiqui says. "Ideas take time to take hold, especially when people have been doing something for so long."

Copyright 2000 Los Angeles Times

Re: # 41

izuber sahib,

that is all rubbish. In reality these days things are the opposite of what you are trying to show.

Kindest regards

Re # 41. In Islam, woman is allowed to have 4 husbands also. Their witness counts for more than that of a man’s, they can divorce a man as easily as he can divorce her. They can lead Jumma prayers for men. They can drive upto 80 miles an hour in Saudi Arabia. Lastly but not leastly, they can breathe in Islamic countries. That’s why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

Has Sherif Abdel Azim, Ph.D ever seen a muslim woman?

Re: # 43

and at the end of the day the reality matters more than your bookish theory.

kindest regards

Humanitarian duties

A problem which has become highly relevant in the life of Muslim communities of today. Duties toward God are over emphasized while duties toward fellow human beings are given a low position on the list of priorities, both at the individual and community levels.
Yet, a good balance is the main characteristic of Islam and its code of living. Hence, a Muslim's responsibilities toward other human beings are indeed given a very strong emphasis in Islam. The Prophet states that a Muslim has a "sanctity", which means that he must always be respected, well-treated and immune from assault on his person, property and integrity. Hence, the Prophet defines the relationship of brotherhood between Muslims, and what it entails in practical life. He says that a Muslim is a brother to every Muslim: the one never treats the other unjustly, nor lets him down, nor tries to humiliate him." He also tells us that the "sanctity" of a believer is "in God's view, greater than the sanctity of the Ka'aba." I hasten to state that the word "sanctity" is inadequate to give all the connotations of the Arabic term the Prophet has used. Suffice it to say that the Hadith implies that all rights, minor or major, that belong to a Muslim must be always respected. A person at the receiving end of injustice is sure to have God's help. The Prophet tells that "supplication by a person treated unjustly goes directly to God without any hindrance." This very statement should be sufficient to make anyone who exercises any degree of power to be on his guard lest he should treat anyone unjustly. Moreover, mutual help between members of a Muslim community is highly emphasized. Try to help anyone with something of importance to him or her, and you are certain to receive God's help in accomplishing what you need. The Prophet says: "Whoever helps his brother with a certain need shall have God helping him in accomplishing his own purpose." The Prophet himself was the best example of extending a helping hand to all and sundry. Even the weakest member of the community could draw on an inexhaustible source of help from the Prophet. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was also the head of the Muslim state, would let even a slave make any demand on his time and service. We should not forget that the Arabian society in the pre-Islamic days was so unjust to both women and slaves. The Prophet was also the best of neighbors and he emphasized that neighbors have a claim on our kindness. He tells us "The Angel Gabriel has  reminded me so often of the rights of a neighbor until I began to think that a neighbor may have a claim to inheritance." This means that the status of a neighbor should be viewed as comparable to that of a family member. According to Muslim scholars, [being] a neighbor is not [limited to] only the person living next door. The persons living forty houses away in every direction are also your neighbors. On the other hand, when the Prophet heard one of his companions say to Bilal during an argument, "You son of a black woman", he was very angry indeed. He said to that man: "You insult him on account of his mother? You certainly have not purged yourself from the values of an ignorant society." All that gives us just an idea of the sort of emphasis Islam attaches to the rights of individuals, particularly those who are vulnerable in society. We must not forget that the Prophet's conduct serves as an example which we are required to follow. It is important to realize here what sort of example the Prophet sets in respect of family life. As for the treatment of women, the Prophet says: "The best among you are those who treat their wives best. I am indeed the best of you in the way I treat my wives." We must look at this Hadith from the right angle. The first part of the Hadith lays down a principle which we must implement in our lives, because it is part of the Prophet's guidance. The second tells us of his practical example which we must follow. Therefore, there is a double emphasis here on the importance of treating wives well. When we compare this with the notion that prevails among the overwhelming majority of men in the Muslim world, we conclude that what we do is at variance with the Prophet's instructions. The letters that I receive from readers asking what they should do because their wives do not obey their instructions are too numerous for comfort. Little do they remember that the kind treatment of wives which the Prophet has encouraged by word and deed is the best way for them to win their wives' respect and a peaceful family life. The Prophet's wives have told us everything about his behavior in the privacy of his own home. There is not a single report that the Prophet ever rebuked any of his wives for any act of commission or omission. Even with his servants the Prophet was the kindest man. Anas ibn Malik reports: "I served the Prophet for ten years and he never said to me: Why did you do this, or why did you omit that." Visiting delegations to Madinah often thought that Anas and his mother belonged to the Prophet's own family, when they were only in his service. Moreover, we are told in an authentic Hadith that when the Prophet was at home, "he was in the service of his family." We tend to overlook all this and give little importance to the high-priority objective of Islam, namely, the eliminating of all injustice. People treat their wives unjustly, and they are unjust to people in their employment. Yet voices which speak against that remain faint, particularly of Muslim scholars. It is a fact of life that contemporary scholars have not addressed this question adequately. On the other hand, we have so much said and written about matters that cannot be described as being of equal importance. Look at the emphasis given to issues like the permissibility or otherwise of music, singing, photography, wearing a long robe that covers a man's ankles, etc. Look at the volume of spoken and written reminders on these and similar issues such as the length of a man's beard, the covering of a woman's face, the joining of people's feet in congregational prayer, etc. Some of these matters have their importance no doubt, but all of them are controversial in the sense that scholars have always had different views concerning each one of them. Moreover, they are far less serious than being unjust to one's wife, servant, employee, neighbor, or indeed fellow human being. We should always remember that God may forgive us all sins that relate to our duties toward Him, but He will not forgive us anything that is due to a human being until that person is ready to forgive it. Hence, balance between these two must be restored before we can truly claim to lead an Islamic life.
(Arab News)

Re: # 46

izuber sahib,

nasty thing to do to distract attention from what I said!

Kindest regards

Re: # 45
Pakistan3,
Not intending to argue I am living this experience for 4 decades and bringing up a second generation of off-springing Muslims in North America I am compelled to correct your misunderstanding.
Alhamdulillah Islam progresses as it should in all manners in this part of the world, dont be misled by the sporadic stories of people who may have stumbled and fallen but to tell you the truth a good majority of even those picks up shakes the dust off and rubs their knees and once again begins to walk the towards Sirat-e-mustaqeem.
May Allah SWT bless all of us toward the right path regardless of their geographical existence, ameen.
(Note: the number of those who reverted to deen-e-Islam in the year 2005 is estimated at 135,000, while a majority of that number is females)
I must remind you not to consider what is posted by others to be rubbish specially when it is about your deen you may educate yourself to counter another person's statements or posts in a decent manner subject to your adoption of deen in it's true spirits.

Re: # 44
You need not be dignified with a response

Re: # 47
Thank you, Pakistan3 for your kind attention however I do not argue for the sake of arguments as to each is their own, inshaAllah Islam shall rise once again depending only on the characters of it's believers.
I wish you all the best.
Thanks & best regards.

Re: # 48

izuber

How do you correct my "misunderstandin" when you live a life of confort in foreign land and decide to dictate to me what I should or shouldn't do in my homeland.

You left this country of your own volition. Deal with it! Don't bring your self riteousness to teach me or other members of your "ex"-compatriots what they should or shouldn't do. That is for US to decide.

This is OUR country so keep out of it. Your decision, not ours. You can't have the "best of both worlds".

Kindest regards

I think this is izuber's way of telling urstruly how out of touch his post is with islamic tenants. He is completely right in that approach.

Currently islamic societies like all third world societies have a horrible track record towards women and we should confront that mentality by pointing out the principles of islam like izuber did.

Pakistan3 you are another emotional character who does not appear to deserve the regarded accorded here in my response.

The Pakistan you appear to be so charmed about has been contributed more than it's worth by only one family of mine, and I will leave it for Allah SWT to judge.

When it comes to Islam it has no geographical boundaries and before you open your mouth to use the "rubbish" word again stretch your brain a little because it is overly rusty and attempts to set a different standard of deen for each geographical boundaries.
What you claim to be your country did not have the money to pay it's govt. employees the first salaries it was contributed to by the compliments of our people, when the State Bank of Pakistan wished to issue currency there was no Gold reserve in your empty tank our compliments you got it.
When you drown and are thrown around by the wrath of Allah SWT you spread your hands more to USA as compared towards the sustainer Allah SWT and yet you have the audacity to speak like this.
You "Pakistan3" remember that beggars cant be choosers and I am saying this because of what you like to hear since this is the type of organisms that help run the electrons towards your brain if there is one.
It is not your country and I can substantiate that very well, you are one of those who would sell whatever to get to the banks of USA and be the first to wrap yourself in the not so green card & the star spangled banner, you are one of those low lifes who live on bad-mouthing & envying others.
I dont need to correct your misunderstanding because you have more than that a disease that cant be cured. Go back to your cage.

Re: # 49

“You need not be dignified with a response”

Zuber, That’s much appreciated and very welcome from where I stand. The best thing you can do is to keep your mouth shut. It’s characters like you who are keeping women in servitude by flashing your 6th century Arabian garbage that is no longer applicable even in the place it started in. Only an idiot will compare place of women in Islam to that in Christianity and Judaism, why can’t it stand on it’s own merit? You know why? Because it has no legs to stand on. Now go back into the cave.

Re: # 53

izuber,

(When you drown and are thrown around by the wrath of Allah SWT you spread your hands more to USA as compared towards the sustainer Allah SWT and yet you have the audacity to speak like this.
You "Pakistan3" remember that beggars cant be choosers and I am saying this because of what you like to hear since this is the type of organisms that help run the electrons towards your brain if there is one.)

How dare you you self riteous prick! Just buzz off!

Who do you think you are? We are not beggars like the white man's slave that you have been all your life and now remembers Islam and Allah's blessings!

We believe in Allah more than you imagine as that is ALL we have here! And you have the audacity to tell us that WE are the beggars!!

Keya baat hai bhai!

buzz off to your rizk-givers where you have brought up your three generations according to Allah's teachings. If you had such belief, why did you not wait and look for RIZQ here?

I have nothing more to say to a hypocrite like you.

Allah nigehbaan

Urstruly,

Your comment about "women are asking for it cause they are running their tongues" lacks basic humanity.

In relationships both male and female lash out at each other and push each other's buttons. In the indian pakistani culture, the man considers it macho to beat the shit out of somebody. Since he is typically not able to pick fights with men as they may be stronger, and since the woman is typically weaker, that's where the man becomes sher. Really macho. Wow.

In the pakistani culture, there is an added "mullah" dimension that makes it ok to hit women, if they misbehave.

Did the prophet ever hit his wife? Me wonders.

This is not a religious issue. This is a fundamental issue of how we treat each other.

I think if a man does want to thrash his wife etc, it should at least be a level playing field where she can bring a knife or a gun to the fight.

Re: # 55
buzz off to your rizk-givers where you have brought up your three generations according to Allah's teachings. If you had such belief, why did you not wait and look for RIZQ here?

This is where your Islam begins or ends?

Wait and look for Rizq? go learn from the teachings of Islam, the Quran the Hadith and then come back to post another time.

Those who keep sitting by the well dont quench their thirst, it takes one to move and make an effort, that people typical to your thinking fail to do, because Allah SWT has said that HE does not help those who do not help themselves.

May Allah SWT bless you & me with wisdom to appropriately understand and place things where they belong and avoid entangling un-necessarily, ameen.

Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three:
(1) whenever he speaks, he tells a lie,
(2) whenever he is entrusted, he proves to be dishonest,
(3) whenever he promises, he breaks his promise.

Re: # 57

izuber, I have already said what I had to say here and on the other site with HP.

What a hypocrite you are !!

Allah nigehbaan

#37 Kulharee

I am glad you'd asked. Holy Prophet (pbuh) has set a very high standard for the rest of humanity viz a viz women. It needs a book to describe these standards and this short post cannot do justice. He gave the women the first human right, that is life, where a girl infant was burried alive and father would hide his face with shame for days if a baby girl was born in his house. Isn't it the case in many societies in the world where female fetuses are aborted everyday for their crime of being a female. He said " a woman is as delicate as a rose, (treat her as such". He would stand up when his own duaghter used to visit him. Once a man came to him and said that he had helped his mother perform hajj while carrying her on his shoulders because she was too old and frail; so did he pay his debt of duty towards his mother or not? The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said "not even; you couldn't even pay the debt of one night when you were an infant, you wetted the bed; your mother put you on the dry side of the bed while she slept all night on the wet side of the bed."

These are the standards that our Prophet has set for us. The cornerstone of these standards is balance, justice, and equity. So he said to one group of women once " You know; most of the women will go to hell for one single reason; because they often say to their husbands "the whole life you have done nothig for me". So kulharee has your wife ever told you this that you have never done anything for her. What is your reaction then?

You see; this is called the balance and equity. My problem with western style of women's right is that they protray men as monsters who are just out their eating little girls. This is pathetic. The consequence of this is that in their society now men are marrying men and women are marrying women.

Yes in Muslim world women get the raw deal but there are overwhelming number of muslim men too who would give their lives in love for their daughters, wives, mothers, and other women in their lives.

If in Muslim world women get a raw deal, then so do they in Western world, where woman has been reduced to a cog in the big capitalist economic wheel; she has been deposed from her privige as a mom, a wife, and sister. I know it is not politically correct to say it, but what he position of woman in west is any different than of a prostitute? heck men won't even own the children begotten by them.

So if womens right is important, then they should strive to get back their priviliges first, starting from west.

Kulharee, pakistan3,

izuber has said nothing offensive. You may think Islam is the root of all troubles, I think otherwise. It is a beautiful religion and I am hapy and proud to be a muslim.

izuber is pointing out that the mullah worldview is at odds with the teachings of Islam.

Please direct your vitriol instead, at the mullahs who are perpetuating anti-islamic teachings.

Re: # 56 hurrican

There is nothing macho about a man who beats his wife; as a matter of fact anyone who does this is nothing but a miserable littel piece of ....

You have correctly pointed out as to what causes such a transaction. As the urdu proverb goes you cannot clap with one hands. So we must have a balanced overview while looking at behavioral misconduct on part of both men AND women.

From the one who bestows Rizq and blessing upon all of us:

Al-Baqara
2:212 The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.

Al-Yunus
0:31 Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? and who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say, "(Allah)". Say, "will ye not then show piety (to Him)?"

Al-Hajj
(This verse tells about those who take a step in the name of Allah SWT be it migration or to defend the land)
22:58 Those who leave their homes in the cause of Allah, and are then slain or die,- On them will Allah bestow verily a goodly Provision: Truly Allah is He Who bestows the best provision.

(In the Ayah below, Allah SWT does not discuss anywhere that should the believer be located in Pakistan, China or North America)
24:38 That Allah may reward them according to the best of their deeds, and add even more for them out of His Grace: for Allah doth provide for those whom He will, without measure.

An-Naml
27:64 Or, Who originates creation, then repeats it, and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah. Say, "Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!"

Al-Ankabut
29:60 How many are the creatures that carry not their own sustenance? It is Allah who feeds (both) them and you: for He hears and knows (all things)

SAba
34:24 Say: "Who gives you sustenance, from the heavens and the earth?" Say: "It is Allah. and certain it is that either we or ye are on right guidance or in manifest error!"

Fatir
35:3 O men! Call to mind the grace of Allah unto you! is there a creator, other than Allah, to give you sustenance from heaven or earth? There is no god but He: how then are ye deluded away from the Truth?

Ghafir
40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure

Ash-Shura
42:19 Gracious is Allah to His servants: He gives Sustenance to whom He pleases: and He has power and can carry out His Will.

At-Talaq
65:3 And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine. And if any one puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is ((Allah)) for him. For Allah will surely accomplish his purpose: verily, for all things has Allah appointed a due proportion.


Al-Mulk
67:21 Or who is there that can provide you with Sustenance if He were to withhold His provision? Nay, they obstinately persist in insolent impiety and flight (from the Truth).


2:13 And when they are told, "Believe as other people believe," they answer, "Shall we believe as the weak-minded believe?" Oh, verily, it is they, they who are weak-minded -but they know it not!


An-Nisa
4:54 Do they, perchance, envy other people for what God has granted them out of His bounty? But then, We did grant revelation and wisdom unto the House of Abraham, and We did bestow on them a mighty dominion:

An-Nahl
16:90 BEHOLD, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards [one's] fellow-men; and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy; [and] He exhorts you [repeatedly] so that you might bear [all this] in mind.

Re: # 54:
"flashing your 6th century Arabian garbage that is no longer applicable even in the place it started in. Only an idiot will compare place of women in Islam to that in Christianity and Judaism, why can’t it stand on it’s own merit? You know why? Because it has no legs to stand on"

May your own name (kulharee) fall on your obese minority heathen neck for uttering such non-sense!

Is it true that Christians, Hindu, Sikh,and Jews have stopped beating their wives?

In what way this article is religion specific? This is a common social issue as old as the human race itself. Aisha did a good job in showing the problem in Pakistani society but it does not mean that this problem exist only in Pakistan.

Re: # 64
It further does not mean that it exists in all households across the board but it is deplorable in the strongest terms wherever it exists.

This does not justify violence anywhere but read:
http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/domviolence.htm

Domestic violence continues to invade the public and private lives of women, men, and children, impacting families, friends, co-workers, and communities. These behaviors--whether physical, sexual, emotional, economic, or psychological—continue to occur in all homes regardless of education, income-level, or geography.

I encourage all individuals and groups to use October, designated as National Domestic Violence Awareness Month, to help raise awareness. Domestic violence is not only a personal tragedy, it is a serious crime that negatively affects women, men, children, neighborhoods and communities. We must join together to address the causes of this crime so that each and every home can be a place of peace and safety.

The Office on Violence Against Women (OVW) continues to make vital contributions to help those negatively impacted by domestic violence. In recognition of Domestic Violence Awareness Month, OVW has launched a powerful public service announcement (PSA), airing this month, to continue to raise awareness and increase education. This PSA, entitled “End It Now,” will target men, women, children, and the general public. Our goals at OVW are to encourage prevention and facilitate a greater public dialogue.

On August 28, 2007, I attended the grand opening of the New Orleans Family Justice Center. OVW made $3 million available to help create this support center, where victims can find the services they need in one central location. Through programs like the Family Justice Center communities are being transformed.

Let us take the opportunity this month to speak out and help others who have been impacted by domestic violence. I urge you to actively participate and show your support for Domestic Violence Awareness Month by getting involved with your state or local domestic violence program. At OVW we believe, “working together to end the violence” is the first step. We are all agents of change, whether we work locally in the community or as part of a large government agency. Thank you for doing your part to raise awareness.

more @ http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/The%20Advancement%20of%20t he%20Status%20of%20Women%20-%20Israel%2020

Since its establishment in 1948, the state of Israel has had the image of a country in which women enjoy full equality. This image, due to the liberal and socialist ethos of the Zionist movement, is, however, somewhat misleading. There are many areas, in which traditions, social institutions, religious rules, and even laws have kept women at a disadvantage: in the workplace, in divorce proceedings and as victims of violence. Changes in the political and economic climate, such as the Middle East conflict onflict in the Middle East and the influx of thousands of guest workers, have created new problems. The widening economic gap in Israeli society, along ethnic and geographical lines, points to the entrenchment of poverty and disadvantage in particular groups. Old women, single mothers, Arab women, immigrants from Ethiopia and the former Soviet Union and foreign workers (with or without work permits) are most vulnerable to poverty, health problems and abuse of basic rights. Women as a group are disadvantaged in the labor market, the health system, education, the courts and religious institutions and are subject to harassment and violence.

It is an intense issue while some are buying into establishing NGOs appearing to be women rights organization aspiring to collect Grant funds from various resources and so-called think tanks that are busy using the statistics of a nation to portray its marred image in the international arena affecting other implications against such nations while failing to look under their own arms.
Its a big game played on the lives of many women around the world selectively.

#67 Posted by izuber on May 11, 2008 12:48:27 pm

goatbrain: are you seriously comparing the status of israeli women with those of women in islamic countries?

#66 Posted by izuber on May 11, 2008 12:47:00 pm


This does not justify violence anywhere


Umm...you're doing exactly that..justifying violence by saying it happens in america too..if you're not, then statistics from america, where women are doing way way better than those in islamofascist countries, is as relevant as traffic statistics on the beltway...

#64 Posted by HP on May 11, 2008 12:14:06 pm


Is it true that Christians, Hindu, Sikh,and Jews have stopped beating their wives?


christian, hindu, sikh and jewish women are doing way better than islamic women..

Take any measure..education, achievement, workforce participation...

if you're saying that this is because christians, hindus, sikhs and jews beat their women, then maybe you need to beat your women more...sorta like eight belles..

Re: # 71

It is a myth that women in america are doing quite well. By all measures they are quite miserable as compared to women in Muslim societies. Lets take, your measures education and workforce particpation etc. If we take into account male vs. female ratio of education; the number of women in higher education is 75% vs. 25% men in Pakistan alone. This bursts your myth right there. As far as workforce participation is concerned one must ask at what cost. The woman in west has to abandon family, relationships and home to build a career. The average age of childbearing of women with career is 35+ when biological clock is around its last laps. At this stage in panic they run to egg banks or marry a chronically unemployed slob who would rear kids for them.If this is the cost of a career then Pakisatni/Muslim women are the best career women in the world. They have a full time career at home where wage is paid in nothing but love, dignity, and respect. I have been to America; I have spoken to american women about the life of Pakistani women; one must see their faces, the feeling of utter loss, emptiness, and guilt when they compare themselves with the women in Pakistan. There goes your myth again. About participation which is a highly subjective term, yes the women in the west have greater participation but again at what cost. In Pakistan alone a woman has been a Prime Minister twice but never being woman has been an issue for her - even from the religious orthodoxy. In America only now a woman is running for presidents' post and her being a woman is number one issue.

I do not expect much from you since you are a hindu, who have no moral or societal code of their own and always have to look outside for a dignified way of living but unfortunately some slave minded Muslims also subscribe to your point of view. These are extremist retard mongols who are so shortsighted that they cannot see a single good thing in our society. You can only pitty them.

The best way to contradict stupid biases about misogyny in pakistan is to not write posts saying women who talk too much are soul crushers and hence justifiably get beaten up by their unfortunate yet noble and brave "real men" husbands.

There is a legit reason why people speak out against misogyny, its not always to bash pakistan.

Just because you may have met some depressed american women it doesnt mean poverty and powerlessness is better than prosperity and emancipation. You may not know the poor destitute miserable beaten women living all over pakistan personally but they exist in overwhelming numbers and their lives are miserable.

Dont belittle the horrible cruelties they live through just because you met 2 depressed women in america and have subsequently decided life for average paki women (not bhutto's)is so brilliant that nothing needs to change.

Re: # 73

I suppose that your post was addressed to me. I think you have either a problem with reading comprehension or you are desperately trying to prove the myth "aurat choti aqal" to be true.

What I wrote in my several posts below is a fact that there is always a reason that wives get beat up; and their uncontrolled outbursts are one of the biggest reasons.It is just another debate whether those reasons are valid or invalid or beating them is a justified response or not. Nothing in this world happens without a reason ok?

I would have spoken to you nicely, which I usually do to all women, hadn't you used the word "mysogyny". This is slave-speak; dump it. You will do just fine with your indegenous diction.

So if a woman has an emotional outburst and her husband beats her vicously in response are you saying thats justified because there is an understandable reason?

and ive been speaking to you politely too, so i dont think you are doing me any favors.

As for choti aqal i think you are pretty much the champion on that but only someone with superior aqal would understand that, so clearly you cant.

arjun i.e. a train without the engine that is known as brain you are not dignified enough to be commenting on any of these issues you go worship your idols till they speak back to you.
This forum is not meant for your indulgence, so stay within your dhoti till your arse is burned and beaten while being burned by your qualifying sons who will lit the fire to burn you providing you a hell immediately as you cease to exist.

Re: # 75

Delete "thats justified because" from your first paragraph then answer is yes. And thats the point I have been making all along.

Thanks for speaking to me politely; a badtaneez aurat is the ugliest creature in universe. So is a man, if it makes you happy, therefore, it is said that khush ikhlaqi mard ka zewar hay/

Under no circumstances one is to beat another soul unless they are in a appropriately incepted Jihad fi sabeel lillah, and even during Jihad one is not intentionally kill the other if there is a slight chance of capturing the enemy.
With regards to woman's status in Islam it is very clear but it is due to the level of illiteracy among Muslims who only know that the man is the head of the household and nothing beyond that so they go to establish their administration in all the wrong ways they are able to.

Re: # 77
SubhanAllah, I am impressed to see that some here are as polite as you in your approach.

May Allah SWT bless you with honor.