Mohajirs Are People Too

What are we talking about here? The Sindhis reflect the softness of the Sufi culture, it is visible in their demeanour. Far superior and quite opposite to the Magadhi Muhajirs about whom the writer is waxing eloquent.

Yes, mohajirs are indeed as respectable and adorable a people as any other ethnicity or community in Pakistan or elsewhere...

The world is but an idle dream
It shapes a film upon a stream
If you would know reality
Then listen carefully, mark and see
That oneness is a mighty sea
Where pluralism's bubbles team

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

re 159
:) exactly !

Re: # 158
Thank you, cliftonbridge for so eloquently concluding this ongoing matter in such simple words, it is my utmost wish that all of us stop naming ethnicities and put an end to this issue for ever, while we all regard and live our cultures without encroaching others.

Its silly to keep having the same fight over and over again, if ethnicity isnt important it shouldnt be important to anyone. If its important to everyone else then you cant expect urdu speakers to unilaterally give up theirs. That being said urdu speakers are actually the most willing to give up their ethnic identity as they are a subselected group who CHOSE to leave their history and land behind for an ideology.

Quite frankly this whole talk of bangaldesh/jinnahpur is stupid and a khyalli pulao, karachi has a shit load of problems but rampant intermarriage will take care of the "ethnic" bloodline issues. Then we will be left with nonethnic karachiites fighting for what they see as their due rights - just like every other part of pakistan. To think that struggle can only result in partition , in any part of pakistan is very defeatist and counterproductive.

One has to have eggs and a basket too to be putting those in there!
What else can one call it other than inferiority complex when a general description is taken as offensively as it appears from your writing, it boils down to nothing but a complex, although nothing was mentioned about "you" other than your statements but you seem to be willing to own it which is self-explanatory once again.
Regardless of your views things are much different than how you view those, while I cant blame you for anything except how you place your views in a compilation of statements. You as an individual have the right to an opinion and I have the right to consider those flawed, biased and prejudiced.
No one person ethnicity or culture has the God given right to claim Pakistan or any region thereof as their jageer, while you continue to claim that since inception of Pakistan in in the days earlier to that the region of Sindh province is an ownership of "Sindhis(as defined in your terms)" and in clear and strongest terms I challenge your portrayal of this as an anti-Pakistan innuendo.
With regards to Qaid's declaration of Urdu as the national language that is altogether a different matter and a separate issue, which should be addressed under separate cover as it has nothing to do with what you have been attempting to instigate and perpetrate thus far.
What you have been painting so nicely totals to nothing but the attempts of few who care to break Pakistan into pieces under a conspiracy supported by we know who, and this is not acceptable under any circumstances or terms.
First you began with the shifting of the Sindh university to Hyderabad and once you were countered on that you attempt to dance all over the floor and avoid the spot-light focus, and since you have been jumping from one place to another playing your hop-scotch, while the summation of all your arguments and statements totals to nothing more to what I have already said more than once.
A country can have only one National language, a language which majority of ethnicities can communicate in as such it was adopted, wearing a blue shirt does not mean that all those who wear another color are to be insulted.
What comes out as the most evident from reading your statements that it is the speakers of Urdu that you wish to blame, and you appear to think that they are responsible for all your problems, you are wrong and I most respectfully continue to disagree with you on that issue.
As I have mentioned and you fail to read that there are good, bad and ugly in all ethnicities and I don't deny the fact that some may have committed something that may not be as polite but that should not become the reason for stereotyping the entire class of people.
As I have told you earlier that I have personally interacted and acquainted closely with various Sindhi intellects and found them to be very cordial in all manners, so I know and can affirm that it is not the entire Sindhi community that looks at non-Sindhis through the same lense that a few like you do.
Now you bring Baluchistan in your discussion and that will have due regard and discussed in a separate discussion of it's own.
I would like to understand clearly from you that deep inside do you wish to reconcile what you see as differences among various sections of nation or you only like to take advantage of blame game strategy to inflame and push wedges among people of various ethnicities?
The deeds of everyone are reflective of their intentions so come out and say in open what your agenda is.

Last Post


Denials and twists won't help, stop painting me as a misguided JSQM or whatever guy, ...
and LOL at calling me " illetrate " , "who suffer from an inferiority complex" ,"intense admirers of the Jack-ass"

..etc.etc.etc and etc...

these all are ad hominems .


I have given you an honest view , my personal view , you have the right to disagree with it, but ignoring it is like
deceiving yourself .

so when we Loose , Bangladesh , and start finding scapegoats , we never learn a Lesson.

I mentioned 27-30 Dec , after the Murder of Benazir , it was to underline the CHANGE in the Mindset of Sindhi, and Zardari's attempt , will only temperarily put the matter on the back burner, but if these issues are not addressed with sincerity , they are bound to bounce back.

Same is the case in Balochistan, dismissing it lightheartedly , and blaming Others, won't help again.


Yes you can ignore the ominous signs , thats your prerogative , But trust me they are REAL.

Yes Sindhis had no problem till 71 , because till them, it was all the 'RAG' of Bhaichara , and Pakistan pakistan, etc.
it was only after Sindhi was given its due recognation that all the hell was let loose ,like I said 71-72 were watershed years.

and you want to tell me, that when M A Jinnah declared " URDU " the national language , and Bengalis objected , it has no role in the alienation ...??


and Yes Napier did recognized the importance of Karachi as a strategic Port ,back in 1867 british spent 250,000 pounds sterling on the development of this strategic port, but you cannot dismiss the contribution of Sindhi Hindus and Parsis in the development of Karachi.

LOL

Standard rheotorics and ad hominems

and also Putting the eggs in the wrong basket.
LOL

Karachi or any other city is nobody's baap key jageer in the manner you relate to it.
It is the undercover attempt by you to further the propaganda of JSQM but while you spew all that poison on the back of a dead gaddha you don't have the backbone to speak up openly.
You resort to scattered thoughts yes 70-71 were celebrated by your kind and there is a graveyard full of people who died in those clashes perpetrated by Mumtaz Ali Bhutto & his kind who thought that like he kidnapped and kept Abdul Waheed Katpar's daughter he would be able to hijack Urdu but that was not the case.

Who do you talk about as givers of the best city, who owned that city of Karachi or be it any city of Pakistan?

Where did you get the right to own a city of Pakistan from?

Urdu and urdu walas are no less than elite but that doesn't mean that speakers of any other language are any less, but that does not apply to those who claim to be owners of Karachi in 1947 and are intense admirers of the Jack-ass.

It was not the superior culture of Urdu that was the cause of losing East Pakistan, the principal reason and personality behind that was of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who in the first place became merciful about Agartala conspiracy and had Mujibur Rehman off the hook and when Mujib won the majority vote it was the ZAB style of democracy to refuse the majority from establishing govt. he would rather give up that part of the country so he himself could be portrayed as the choice of majority and he did that exactly. It was ZAB and cronies who are absolutely responsible for the dismemberment of East Pakistan. Urdu played no role in that separation or as you call alienation.

The city which you claim to be the Best now was developed by the then British rulers and later developed by all those that chose it to be their home.

It is a matter of being literate and having an open mind lack of which culminates ideas like yours, to name a few Abdul Wahid Sindhi and Pir Ali Muhamad Rashdi were two famous intellectually rich Sindhi author who saw no problems with those who migrated to found Pakistan but it becomes more evident reading from you that there is a number of people there who suffer from an inferiority complex and wish to capitalize on this disease of theirs. They lack self esteem which leads to nothing else but a sense of insecurity based upon their complex which is not a treatable disease unless they chose to treat themselves no one can treat a complex.

While I interacted with the two named above with quite cordial terms I have also had the honor to be a neighbor of Justice Hasan Ali Abul Rahman also a prominent sindhi who never resorted to such influence of inferiority complex.

The intensity with which you claim of ownership to the City and Province, let me tell you about it with the history of my very own clan, if I were to began talking like you did I would disown everyone else from having any rights on that very motherland you claim to be owned by Sindhis.

Talking about my family it started migration from Mecca and Madina towards Sindh, some 40-50 years after its conquest by Mohammad bin Qasim. They settled in a place known as "Kanbah", which was near modern Dadu. Shamsuddin A1 Bashari, a renowned historian and a geographer traveled in Sindh extensively in the 4th century of Hijra and in his Book he wrote that: "I travelled the whole area, which is known as "Kanbayah" which is the abode of my clan.Kanbayah became "Kanbah" and later it changed into "Kanboh" due to linguistic variations in the Persian period. Though this linguistic change became common, the people did not change and they are still having their special trends." (page 475 of the Lyden Edition, Germany), as referred by Al-Haj Mohammad Zubair in his book "Kitab-i- Zeest (Book of life) Page 123.

Latest observation about the my clan is by Mr. Khalid Chaudhry who visited a number of countries in search of belongingness and whose article appeard in Daily "Dawn" (Magazine Section dated February 21, 1999) and he writes that; "Our people Pakistanis, came from every where, beginning with the Aryans, to the Greeks, the Mongols, Central Asians, and the Arabs. We now have such family names as Al-Zubair clan speaking Urdu, but usually having semitic noses, lighter complexions and Arab origins likewise for the Arabs of Sindh, but who speak Sindhi" Our Arabic origin, special features and trends, and distinguished mental faculties made us a prominent family in the Indo-Pakistan sub-continent. this is the author's suggestion I dont believe in any prominence except humanity)
Second migration of the Al-Zubair clan took place by the end of the 4th century A.H. From Sindh to Multan, when Sindh was overrun by the Carmathians, opposed to the Abbasid Caliphate, at that time. The Al-Zubair clan joined Mahmood of Ghazna in his conquests in Indo-Pakistan Sub-Continent, and then settled in Multan.
Dear Aquarius, now take it easy and settle down and give up that inferiority complex because I assure you that you are no less than anyone else in Pakistan, build up your generations self-esteem and do your part towards contributing for the nation of Pakistan, envying and complexes do not take one anywhere. Let begones be bygones and take a fresh start in the right direction with a positive attitude.
I am not claiming that everyone is an angel and may at some time or another not committed acts that may have sowed the seed of doubt for some it is a universal truth that there are good, bad and ugly in all kinds of people, but knowing who we are we should be able to get over such things.

Re: # 151
and # 150


yes we in a habbit of denials, and explaining away things the way we Like.


70-71 was the watershed , what they call " the Language riots " ...and " Urdu ka Janaza hey zara dhoom say Nikley "


since 47 , immigrants were given the Best city Pakistan could afford, Karachi , no doubt about it, and the natives who were left , retreated into the rural aread, Karachi and Hyderabad and to some extent Sukhar was completely overtaken by " Elite Urdu Walas "

with that came Insistence, of a superior Urdu Culture and its imposition , even to the extent the we Lost Bengal.
beside other exploitive factors , leading to the alienation of Bengal, Urdu too was a Forceful factor.

after 71 , A Sindhi Z A Bhutto , recognized this, and tried to Bring his own language Sindhi , at least on an equal ground, when he bowed to the argument, "In Sindh then why not Sindhi"....
but then that opened up a floodgate of .......Distortions to realities. Sindis were perplexed . How Come they are feeling threatened by the revival attempt of our Language and culture...??and that too in our own land , which has over 5000 years Old historical roots.....!!

Then came 84 , and someone from THEM choose to become a STOOGIE of a Foreign Power, and exploited the panoria of an alienated population , who had no concern of, and was not even interested in what was happening outside their world, ie Just North of Karachi.

Let me give a little background.

Karachi has seen , a number of waves of immigrants, the First in 47-48 and upto late 50's , that changed the demographic composition of not only the city but Sindh iteself.
second , after 71 when people from "the then East Pakistan " landed here, Orangi is a living proof of that, its then , when the civic ammeneties and resources were beggining to get stretched ,creating a discontent ..but these were nearly absorbed , those who came from East Pakistan then started a New Life, and at One time, due to Punjabi-Behari economic partnership , thing were getting back on track, remember SherShah at one time was competing with Faisalabad in cloth production ..but they will choose to ignore it, because it involves their " Donkey " Punjabi , who always shoulders them and gave the mussle power to get their ways.

But the seeds were sowen, when Z A Bhutto , tried an affirmative action , to bring a sembalance to the imbalance , regarding the Sindhi Native representation in the Government ., yes I am talking about the Quota system.
and though their actual percentage in Sindh Population was about 20-22% , a 40:60 parity was adopted.

this action of trying to bring a Balance in representative participation , between the two ethinic communities who were then phycially bi-furcated into Rural-urban divide , was exploited and it still is exploited , to brainwash and zomize an alienated community filled with a sense of victimhood , to the maximum , leading to the voilent lash backs of 80's.

..then came a silent third wave , which started in 80's again from East Pakistan, now those who came, had resentment , resentment against Pakistan for leaving them in the lurch , and this migration , stretched the resources beyond limits, also then 30-35 years of existence ,or an arrogant superiority , its at time time, another event , an international event of monumous proportion was about to happen, Hong Kong, ...

Hong Kong was to ,change hands in 97 ,and a retreated once super power was looking for a possible alternative, they then exploited the conditions to the Maximum .and proped up One from among them , to lay condition till an appropriate time, in Pakistan too, the short sighted Zia joined in, he in order to reign in, PPP , went along and provided all the support.
Hence an ethinic Monter was created , the sense of ethinic isolation deepened with after 89, hordes and hordes of Afghan migrants entered the already brusting at seems with all sort of Problem city or Karachi.

hence , all the things fit in perfectly well, and they managed to wrestle away Karachi from Pakistan.


Musharraf ERA , is another step in this direction , Musharraf's most noteworthy contribution is the Shrinking of the Writ of STATE in Pakistan.

12 May proved that, when the President of Pakistan , in no uncertain terms, declared Un-Officially ofcourse , Pakistans law does not holds good in Karachi, when he refused to even set up a worthless enquiry commision.

Period.

By the way , ever wondered, why their leaders , has been given the coveted " RED Passport " by the Britishs...??

and why he refuses to comeback to his own created FIEFDOM ...??or is he Held Back for an appropriate time...??

and why , they have all sort of International sectriats in nearly all the major countries....??

yes we have seens many political exiles, and though most of them Land in UK, none demands and get a British Passport , hence none even desires to abandon his Pakistani citizenship for another countries citizenship.

yes we do have ,Elites who are propelled by their personal interests and have DUAL citizenships that of USA , but thats another matter.


..Thats the Tip of the iceberg.


..and Unfortunatley , I see 2011 , about to become a reality.


...the grand design that is being unfolded, right before our eyes, and Pakistani nation is in a Limbo. But perhaps, it was an artificial construct .... Period.

there was not Pakistan before 47 , there was no TNT before 30's , if we take Allama's " Khutba " as the starting point.

aquaris,

You have identified the problem very well.

Re: # 149
aquarius, you state as following
as expected .
you have not read my Last lines.
and let me repeat them ,
" though you can argue , this is a Baised Sindhi site, and it does not mention KHORO as the narrater...
none the less, this shows, how Sindhis Preceive themselves to be treated by the Elite Urdu Walas."

sir or madam:
I read that thoroughly and that further strengthens my thoughts because when you are aware that it is or could be biased based upon your understanding, then, why do you insist to rub it in? it is quite natural that when one doesn't feel confident upon something they refrain from consuming it, but in this case you seem to be rubbing against that jack-ass story over and again yet you know that the gaddha is dead, now what can one do if you are so in love with gaddha and that too a dead one.
With regards to the aftermath created by the hoodlums after Benazir's murder is deplorable and it points in one direction that we have traitors and infiltrators on-board this convoy who targeted the infrastructure of our homeland intentionally and purposefully.
They are from the same groups and class who raised the slogan of "Pakistan na khappay" when Zardari addressed the mourners in Garhi Khuda Bakash, he personally addressed those who raised this slogan and said that there is no such thing as Pakistan na Khappay.
Sindh is still well populated by those who dance to drum beats of anti-Pakistan elements while this dream will not come true.
Reading your writing over and again with all the pointers you wish to use makes one think deeper although you disclaim those statements within your very own writing and consider the references to be from a biased group yet you chose to refer to the same or similar again and again.
I dont wish to speculate without knowing you but what appear to convey is nothing more than wishes and rumors created by anti-Pakistan elements, while, constitutionally this matter becomes a defense of Pakistan affair and falls within the jurisdictions of a well trained and equipped army to deal with.
I hope you find my pointer clearly pointing towards those who wish to destroy our homeland as well as those who further their propaganda.
Best wishes.

Let me give you a pointer.


Why , what happened on 27-30 Dec 2007 in sindh ,after Benazir's murder , happened..??

Re: # 147

as expected .


you have not read my Last lines.

and let me repeat them ,



" though you can argue , this is a Baised Sindhi site, and it does not mention KHORO as the narrater...
none the less, this shows, how Sindhis Preceive themselves to be treated by the Elite Urdu Walas."


.. You have no Idea how it feels, when in your Own land you are told, your Language your culture is inferior , you have no Idea, how it feels when you are Told , your history starts with US , that is 60 years ago and like the way WE tell you so.

it has nothing to do with being anti-Pakistan etc..etc..etc...as you have tried to portray the Sindhi concerns.

But then Victors Lack, sensitivity to Local cultures.

Re: # 146
Lets talk about facts and people who dont know what they are talking about should either research first or hold their peace and let others exist in peace.
The Sindh University that is being touted about as having been discriminated and shut down from Karachi was not a teaching institution, it was only an examining authority and as such did nothing to educate people while it was in the business of certifying people.
The University of Sindh, the second oldest University of the country, was constituted under the University of Sindh Act. No. XVII of 1947 passed by the Legislative Assembly of Sindh. The Act was subsequently revised and modified in 1961 and later. The Act of 1972 under which the University is presently functioning provided for greater autonomy and representation of teachers.

From 1947 to 1951 the University functioned solely as an examining body. However, after its relocation in Hyderabad in 1951, it started functioning as a teaching university in pursuit of fulfillment of its charter and mission to disseminate knowledge; the first teaching department, namely, Department of Education, raised to the status of Faculty of Education later, was started in view of the great dearth of trained teachers in the country. The departments of basic Science disciplines as well as other departments on humanities side were added by mid fifties.(This is straight from the mouth of the horse and posted on the University of Sindh website which you can reach at http://www.usindh.edu.pk/introduction.html) go check it out.
Stop and ponder before spreading rumors. What you appear to be relying on comes from an "anti-Pakistan group" who manipulate every story be it real or a fix of their heads which they want to use to further their cause which is to break Pakistan, therefore, its your choice as to what you indulge with.
Jeay Sindh(and the Sindh Hari group) does not even have a moral support from real Sindhi ethnics while the echoes of their message to break Pakistan can be heard amplified through messages in this forum, and I hope it is unintentional since it constitutes "treason".

For your information Sindhis were not in the business of donkey carting as you assume, in the early days of Pakistan they either used two wheeler push carts that they manually used for hauling and the other means were camel carts, and bullock carts, as such your attempts to uselessly rubbing against the donkeys is no more than an attempt to inflame those who are not aware of the history.
Here is there charter & manifesto, one who subscribes to such rhetoric is consequently subscribing to treason against Pakistan:
Aims and Objects of Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz
Aims & Objects (a)
1. Basic points of struggle of JSQM will be Nationalism, secularism, democracy & Socialism.
2. JSQM believes in national harmony and national struggle for the independence of Motherland Sindh "(Political, cultural, economical & geographical) independence."
3. The manifesto of JSQM is free state from, colonial, racism, religious, sexual and all other oppressing.
4. JSQM believes that lower & middle class is actual and active strength.
5. JSQM considers patriotic rising capitalist and "land lord class" as its partener.
6. JSQM considers Sain GM Syed as leader of national independence of Sindh and His program and idea of independent Sindh, global caolation, global peace and development of human being will be spread and practiced under the name of "Paigham-e-Syed", "G.M'ism" & "Idea of Syed".
7. JSQM will utilize all national resources to develop and make safe the national development and self respect in independent Sindhu Desh.
Aims & Objects (b)
1. JSQM supports the alliance of all liberal and “anti Punjab-dominance” parties.
2. JSQM considers Punjab and its foreigner associates as national foe while struggling.
3. JSQM considers all nations and movements as their associates who are fighting under the concept of latest nationalism.
4. JSQM will activate and aware Sindhi nation and will struggle for the ”national right of independence of SindhuDesh.”
5. JSQM will struggle for the freedom and existence of SindhuDesh Worldwide.
6. JSQM will take part in the activities of international peace, humanity and the struggles of independence of oppressed nations around the globe.
7. JSQM will consider Sain G M Syed's no-terrorism (Peaceful) idea as central idea for the freedom, development and defense of SindhuDesh, and will utilize each & every way, power and strategy of struggle to achieve the objective.
This is a published document by the JSQM.

About Liaqat depiction of Sindhis as Donkey Cart Walas..

here is another narration of it....


http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-sindhi.ht ml


Read para 6 .



"``Two years after Karachi's separation (1948), Sindh University was shifted from Karachi, along with its name to Hyderabad to serve the camel cart and donkey cart culture of the natives of Sindh as Liaqat Ali Khan had chosen to characterize it earlier, during exchange of friendly pleasantries "


though you can argue , this is a Baised Sindhi site, and it does not mention KHORO as the narrater...
none the less, this shows, how Sindhis Preceive themselves to be treated by the Elite Urdu Walas.

Khoro's Quote was somewhere on a Sindhi site , and I am still searching for it...

and for population transfer


Independence and population exchanges
Massive population exchanges occurred between the two newly-formed states in the months immediately following Partition. Once the lines were established,[b] about 14.5 million [/b] people crossed the borders to what they hoped was the relative safety of religious majority. Based on 1951 Census of displaced persons, 7,226,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India while 7,249,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan immediately after partition. About [b]11.2 million or 78% of the population transfer took place in the west[/b], with Punjab accounting for most of it; [b]5.3 million Muslims moved from India to West Punjab in Pakistan, 3.4 million Hindus and Sikhs moved from Pakistan to East Punjab in India[/b]; elsewhere in the west [b]1.2 million moved in each direction to and from Sind [/b]



this is what is written in wikepedia.


source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India#Independence_and_population_ exchanges

karchi was among the FEW , just 5 if I remember , cities in the EAST , which had " TRAMS " , yes the Monster TRAMS , faulty yes, but then the most advanced form of public transport....

and let me search for Ayub Khoro's quote

Re: # 141

Mr majumdar


My Bad , that was a type, yes it was 1.2 Million out of 1.4 Million non-muslim in Sindh.

.and yes this is really unfortunate, that we Pakistani disown pre-islamic culture .

just a little few of what we Disown.

I understand , Regvida the oldest living manuscripts were written somewhere in Punjab , around 1500 BC or 2000 BC

Taxila was one of the most renowned university of its time,
I was reading somewhere [ maybe Dawn ] an article by a geogrpahic professor, and he said, they have found monolithic graves in Gulshan-e-Jauher , a place in Karachi, on some plot, but the owner of those plot quickly filled them up, for the fear of Loss of his plots, which now worths, millions.

... yes Pakistanis lack ,sensitivity to its pre-islamic past , and the distortion of History that started in 47 , to validate TNT is taking its toll.

Re: # 140

{-When Liaqat Ali Khan ....then his famous words, " we do not need to learn about the Gadha Gari Wala " Culture }

Can you provide some evidence to substantiate your claim, if Khan did say or imply then it was wrong but we need to see some evidence to back this allegation.

As for the 12 to 14 million non-Muslims (hindu and Sikhs) that migrated from West AND East Pakistan can you be so kind enough to break that number for Sindh, Punjab, Baluchistan, Frontier AND Bengal. Surely, the forced migration from Punjab witnessed the worst atrocities whereas Sindh remained relatively peaceful.

{then these imigrant had nothing in common with the Local, infact they had no Idea , and they still have no Idea of the over 5000 year Old civilization that is Sindh}

I believe this applies to ALL of the chosen people living in Pakistan, its unfair to target a segment of the population which belongs to the same Indian or Indus civilization.

{Just look at Old Karachi, Ramswani, Hindu Gymkhana, Denso Hall, Jahangir Kothari promenade , Mohata Palace, KMC Building,....etc.etc.etc..... the level of Progress even then in Karachi will be evident, and speaks of the contribution of those who were ...........to leave}

And things are different in Lahore, Lyallpur (Faislabad), Hyderabad, Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Quetta and Ziarat? This complete and utter decay of infrastructure and disregard of history is symbolic of Pakistan in general.

Finally, on the subject of Victor mentality well that is a subjective allegation based on popular stereotypes fanned for ethnic and economic reasons. There is no truth to that allegation and can be easily discredited by looking at he country's progress report immediately after partition.

Aquaris,

(we do not need to learn about the Gadha Gari Wala " Culture.)

Who is Gadha Gari Wala?

(12 out of 14 Millions non-muslims , Sindhi Hindu)

I dont think there were 12-14 million Hindoos in what is now Pak prior to 1947. Maybe 6-7 million Hindoos/Sikhs of which maybe 1 million stayed back.

(infact they had no Idea , and they still have no Idea of the over 5000 year Old civilization that is Sindh.)

Why blame the Mojos when many of todays native Pakis wish to disown (rightly or wrongly) the pre-Islamic culture.

(they are the proverbial SCAPE GOATS for every evil and Ill in this Part of the land .)

That is because the Army is largely Punjoo.

Regards

LOL


1-When Liaqat Ali Khan , threw away Sindh University , into the wilderness of Jamshoro , Ayub Khoro Objected and asked the reason.

then his famous words, " we do not need to learn about the Gadha Gari Wala " Culture .

Ask any Mohajir migrant , I bet 99% will tell you their grand fathers or whatever migrated in or after 48 , when the worst was over in Punjab, Bengal and to someextent in Sindh.

12 out of 14 Millions non-muslims , Sindhi Hindu forced to leave, this was the educated middle class of Sindh ,leaving a void a gap , which was supposed to be filled by the new educated imigrant , but then these imigrant had nothing in common with the Local, infact they had no Idea , and they still have no Idea of the over 5000 year Old civilization that is Sindh.

Just look at Old Karachi, Ramswani, Hindu Gymkhana, Denso Hall, Jahangir Kothari promenade , Mohata Palace, KMC Building,....etc.etc.etc..... the level of Progress even then in Karachi will be evident, and speaks of the contribution of those who were ...........to leave.

...and about Punjabis, well " Rolling stones gather no Moss " , those we willing gave up their Land, language, culture , for some Insutrument of Manipulation like TNT and Islam , deserve this humilation.

just to point out, the difference between the treatment to the very Punjabis , speaks volume, in the Eastern Part, they are respected, honoured, and treated with grace .
where as in the western part, inspite of all the sacrifices, they are the proverbial SCAPE GOATS for every evil and Ill in this Part of the land .


in 47 , like I said, some one WON a Land on the sacrifices of OTHERS , and some one was wounded.
those who WON , then had the Victor Mentality, hence the contemptious treatment to their Subjects, where as on the other side, they gathered themselved, and put Balm on the wounds, and healed the wounded , with respect, and acknowledgement of Interdependece and mutual betterment.

#138 izuber and #129 Nasah

melting pot is a failed ideology. mohajirs, sindhis, punjabis, balochis, pakhtuns, and all other ethnic (and other) identities in Pakistan must be respected. They should be free to practice and celebrate their cultural or religious traditions.

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

Re: # 129
Janab Nasah sahib
You say one thing then you contradict yourself !!

The roots are on both sides of the boundary, why do you insist that the Mohajirs should give up on their basics? What gives anyone that right brother?
Part of the families that have been left in India cannot be given up either, they are the same flesh and blood, perhaps you do not have any such connections but those who do, ask them.
On the other hand why dont you think it the other way around when it comes to changing, how about people other than Mohajirs giving up their basics and adopting the other?
I dont think that anyone has the right to change the culture of people.
Mohajirs came home to Pakistan not to be transformed into some other cultures, leave the Mohajirs alone and if they dont suit you then you have the right to avoid them.
They did not chose to come to Pakistan leaving their settled lives no matter if they had any worldly wealth or not.
60 years cant change the culture of people.
Yes Mohajirs are albelay but your suggestion appears to be anokhi wishful thinking. There is a great difference in Botanicals and Biologicals. There is no need to stir up Sindhis or anyone else for that matter.
Mohajirs did not come to Pakistan to become Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan or Baluch they migrated to be Pakistani and that is more than enough for them, its time for all others to melt in the pot of Pakistan provided the level of loyalty if it is with the homeland or provincial and regional cultures.

Re: # 136
Dear Aquarius
”Though one is weary about wikipedia as a source, but then it has reference sections.”
Yes, one has to rely on some source to come up with the statistics be it flawed after all it is statistics, dont be weary in using such sources since its too late to have to start a new investigation.

You refer to two seasoned scholars Ayesha Jalal & Stanley Wolpert,
Indian scholars around the world have found, Ms. Jalal's, work no less provocative. "In Pakistani terms, she takes a very pro-Indian perspective, but in Indian terms, she's still a Pakistani," observed David Washbrook, a professor of modern South Asian history at Oxford University in Britain.

In his biography of Jinnah, Stanley Wolpert, a professor of South Asian history at the University of California at Los Angeles, painted a different picture of the partition, ascribing Jinnah's zealous quest for Pakistani independence partly to a religious metamorphosis toward the end of his life. Wolpert's perspective conforms much more closely to that of the traditional Pakistani narrative.

So, as you will notice everyone’s perception is different from each other, even when it comes to Pakistan by Pakistanis themselves, while one should not take offense of opinions that may vary from person to person.

In your following comments you mention, “so some one WON a Land, on the sacrifices of Others, Pakistan lacked skilled administrators, and hence IMPORTED quite a number, rememeber Nawab Zada's Plea, and it is said, at some point in time about 70% of the Beaurucracy , hence Establishement consisted on this Imported Administors, with a Victor Mindset.
and like a Victor, the first thing that they Did was undermine the Local Cultures, so the Sindhi became a " gadha Gari wala " Culture, Punjabi Dhagga , and Pathans Niswar eating " Sood Khoors ".”

Now it would be nice if you would enlighten all of us some more that what would you identify a Gaddha Gariwala as? Molvi Sahab, or Doodhwala? it is typical that one who is in business of hauling with his donkey cart is identified so in accordance with the trade and if it becomes an unbearable indignity one should change careers!

However it was different with Basheer camel cart wala, who was ruined by US President Linden B. Johnson, Basheer was called saarban(not sure you were around those days or aware of the story)

On the other hand, when I used to accompany my mother(marhooma) as she was an involved social worker in Pakistan back in the day and was engaged in establishing a school in a Sindhi village in the outskirts of Karachi, I remember quite well having been picked on by Sindhis who from time to time called me “Makkarh”(i.e. an insect) &” Panahgeer” while none of this bothered me or my mother, she continued to diligently work on establishing a school for children and a cottage industry and sewing institute for the women and for no personal benefit of her own, and it was Alhamdulillah fulfilled with an opening ceremony by Begum Rana Liaquat Ali Khan(another IMPORT from India) and, since then numerous children who were deprived of education in the absolute Sindhi community, have been getting their education right in their village where there was no school.

With regards to “Punjabi Dhagga”, I have been called “Matarwa” many a times by other individuals on this very forum but I have not seen the term you suggest as having ever been used as an insult on this forum to even counter them, while during my lifetime I have never heard or seen anyone using such indignity, so this sounds like a application of little extra masala here & gets too spicy to swallow, and this should be avoided as it does not culminate anything but hatred.

Pathans Niswar eating, now that is mentioning a fact which was quite evident they used to and also spit frequently after that, alike some of the people who used to do similarly with paan and dirty up all over specially where it admonished in writing to refrain from.

It needs to be made clear that Urdu speaking Mohajirs from India who migrated for one and only reason, were not a commodity to be blessed with Importation, as narrated by yourself, with reference to some unknown Nawab Zada who may have said so, they came at their own free will to fulfill the dream of a homeland of Muslims, the reason they came and settled in greater numbers in Karachi is because it is a port and a good majority of Mohajirs also came by ships, Karachi was not quite populated those days and you might be surprised that even the Bananas that are available so abundantly were no where to be found those days and were cultivated by Mohajirs as well as Sindhis after partition.

It is a misconception and a serious misunderstanding about the people who came home to Pakistan that they are being labeled as “Victors” as a matter of fact it is a serious insult, no one claims victory over their very own brothers in Islam, this would be like making a joke of ourselves, and if someone claims so or perceives like this they should seek forgiveness of Almighty.

Perhaps you may not have run into many a Mohajirs or Karachites otherwise you would not assume that they don’t know about

There was no undermining of local cultures although you cant expect to give up their own culture and adopt a new culture abruptly, it takes a few generations and a lot of tolerance and co-existence, while it comes to undermining culture how well it is occurring these days that we feel ashamed to watch some of the programs on TV or share a movie with the family.

... this Mindset is still there, for example how many Karachities know any thing about the REST of the Sindh, or for that matter about the history of Punjab or Sarhad or even Balochistan ,...... next to none.

It makes one wonder as to how much you know about the topic you have taken the opportunity to mangle, I can only suggest that you realign what you call mindset, the first place my father went to after coming to Pakistan by way of Karachi was the city of Lahore, although he loved the place but due to some climatic adversities that affected his health he ended up moving back to Karachi leaving several of his very close friends behind which he regretted all his life when he remembered the Lahore he saw and fell in love with.

Other family members dedicated their entire life to Baluchistan where they taught school, administered the Quetta radio station, and later the Peshawar radio station in Frontier, and Punjab too.
There are plenty of Urdu speaking Mohajirs that are scattered all over Punjab, Baluchistan, Sindh & the Frontier, while several are known to be involved in agriculture and cultivating at many places in Sindh.

Dear Aquarius I urge you not to speculate and if you are not familiar with matter its best leaving it alone than allowing it to become tainted to the extent of causing feelings of hatred among others.
I am not offended by your writing just wanted to take the time to go over a few things that I don’t find myself in agreement with.
JazakAllah khair.
Your brother in Islam

though one is weary about wikipedia as a source, but then it has reference sections.

and accordngly,

14.5 million people were forced to Mirgrate, during 47's population transfer 11.2 million in WEST , it then further says about 1.2 Million in Sind , leaving the rest in Punjab. ...about 78% .

3.2 Million in EAST , and the balance from the Minority Provinces.

it quotes sources as Ayesha Jalal, Stanley Wolpert, and a few others

...while reading on a similiar topic in these very Chowk pages, I remember Ranjit's comment , and in a Nutshell it said, People who migrated from the minority provices brought with them a Victor Mindset, developed in an Highly communal enviroment.

so some one WON a Land, on the sacrifices of Others, Pakistan lacked skilled administrators, and hence IMPORTED quite a number, rememeber Nawab Zada's Plea, and it is said, at some point in time about 70% of the Beaurucracy , hence Establishement consisted on this Imported Administors, with a Victor Mindset.
and like a Victor, the first thing that they Did was undermine the Local Cultures, so the Sindhi became a " gadha Gari wala " Culture, Punjabi Dhagga , and Pathans Niswar eating " Sood Khoors ".

... this Mindset is still there, for example how many Karachities know any thing about the REST of the Sindh, or for that matter about the history of Punjab or Sarhad or even Balochistan ,...... next to none.

though one is weary about wikipedia as a source, but then it has reference sections.

and accordngly,

14.5 million people were forced to Mirgrate, during 47's population transfer 11.2 million in WEST , it then further says about 1.2 Million in Sind , leaving the rest in Punjab. ...about 78% .

3.2 Million in EAST , and the balance from the Minority Provinces.

it quotes sources as Ayesha Jalal, Stanley Wolpert, and a few others

...while reading on a similiar topic in these very Chowk pages, I remember Ranjit's comment , and in a Nutshell it said, People who migrated from the minority provices brought with them a Victor Mindset, developed in an Highly communal enviroment.

so some one WON a Land, on the sacrifices of Others, Pakistan lacked skilled administrators, and hence IMPORTED quite a number, rememeber Nawab Zada's Plea, and it is said, at some point in time about 70% of the Beaurucracy , hence Establishement consisted on this Imported Administors, with a Victor Mindset.
and like a Victor, the first thing that they Did was undermine the Local Cultures, so the Sindhi became a " gadha Gari wala " Culture, Punjabi Dhagga , and Pathans Niswar eating " Sood Khoors ".

... this Mindset is still there, for example how many Karachities know any thing about the REST of the Sindh, or for that matter about the history of Punjab or Sarhad or even Balochistan ,...... next to none.

#119 by tahmed

All we need is a little bit of decency. While you seem to prefer to view the world from a real black and white perspective (e.g. Mush as criminal and NS as saviour etc), all I could suggest is: pause, and reflect.

Some food for thought can be digged at:

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com

Re: # 130
Thanks for being quite reasonable in your writing, one thing though I would like to correct here,

"A small percentage of the
people that actually migrated from India themselves is
alive today.

Proportionately speaking it's a good sized number of people who migrated and included people that were Punjabi, Urdu & Sindhi speaking, appropriately the adjustment of lives was in a totally new environment while a good number had quit their ages worth of comfort regardless of it's level, speakers of Sindhi & Punjabi had somewhat easier time to adjust due to their lingual capabilities but the Urdu speaking ones took longer to merge in with the rest based on the same scenario.
You are right that there has been a sizeable merger due to inter-marriages as well as the ability to accept a newly developed culture that came to happen naturally while there is still some progress to be made it has not been quite as transparent a transition but hopefully the growing pains should be over if we learn to forgive, forget and over come in the name of that one most important factor that brings us under the umbrella of Pakistan.
Personally I have numerous relatives that experienced inter-marriages and are happily living together in good terms since ever.
Appreciate your considerate comments.
Regards

Re: # 126

HP,

{This issue needs to be looked outside the personal behavior of Judges or one particular Chief Justice. He has provided an opportunity for the politicians and perhaps his role ended after that. But he needs to be brought back if nothing else, for a day to provide the victory to the political workers in the country}

Agreed.

{When she was murdered, the elections were already announced and she was campaigning in Pindi. The free and fair is really a matter of perception.}

Free and fair where the ruling party supported by establishment were given a sound beating, now was that because of CJ/Lawyers movement or BB/PPP political initiatives which included preventing NS from making another boycott mistake? No perception, facts.

{Boosted by the CJ restoration in July, her deal was finally sealed with the army or Gen. Musharaf. She did not bring the people out on the streets, the Lawyers did that.}

Musharraf has seen bigger protests than these post 9/11 and survived, these protests were relatively smaller and limited to major cities in Punjab only, rest of the country was relatively disassociated from the entire mela muwaishea da. Therefore, this argument that it was lawyers movement that forced the army generals hands is not correct. Another element that seems to be lost is the US involvement in trying to build their war against terror support which required change of strategy in Pakistan. Musharraf had failed to deliver on the political front, thus the need to bring broad based support to the WAT. Political pundits and lobbyist in Washington witnessed remarkable change when BB and her confidante Hussein Haqqani lobbied for change in US Govt policies.

Point being, lawyers movement does deserve some recognition but the desire to promote it as the one and only savior is incorrect and hides the basic agenda which is to oust Musharraf, basically revenge.

Lastly, Pakistan faces far bigger crises than those that are being discussed by the political leaders. Inflation or hyper inflation with slowing growth will have devastating effect on the masses. There are no easy solutions but for sure we need to set the priorities right.

Re: # 128

tahmed32

Many thanks for the comliments, but alas I cannot reciprocate your kind and generous words for obvious reasons. Do enjoy your fantasy gala for all shows must come to an end.

What is bothersome is that this CJ-Mush-AZ&Nawaz issue is

becoming ethnically colored. The so called Mohajir community

is not united on Musharraf either so don't push them.

What is a "Mohajir" anymore? A small percentage of the

people that actually migrated from India themselves is

alive today. Many of their children are married to Punjabis

and some to Pathans. Sindhi-Mohajir marriages are also

increasing as are Sindhi-Punjabi, Pathan-Punjabi, Baluch-

Pathan etc etc...

If I am not mistaken, the largest Pathan city in the world

is Karachi. The world's largest Baluch city is also Karachi.


Musharraf may have outlived his welcome (Pakistanis get

restive after 7 years and have the maximum patience for

10 years of any leader). His time is almost up.

Indeed Mohajirs are people -- but people like trees have roots -- even though people move from one place to another -- but where they stay for 60 years they like trees
do develop roots -- or should develop roots.

Now may I ask the "albelay" 'Mohajirs' -- where are their roots -- in a country called India? -- or in a kountry kalled Karachi? -- or in a province called Sindh that doesn't own Karachi? -- or a country called Pakistan that doesn't own Sindh?

How long the 'Mohajirs' will sing their out of tune song -- ruhta hooN Sindh meiN mugger Sindhi naheeN hooN maiN?

#121 rf: you are really clever for someone who is incapable of writing a post without adding personal insults - just saying that "they are all the same" does not change the facts. So, dont try to be cleverer than you are.

Re: # 126
HP sahib, First of all I would like to thank you for your eloquent comments since you maintain a yourself in a manner that even if someone differs from your opinion he/she does not feel bad, I wish we can have a larger number of such people around who can discuss issues and matters without resorting to the lingual deficiencies often noticed here.

“Assuming Musharraf goes, then what next? Will NS and others continue to uphold the law?”

Nothing is guaranteed. In politics when you have stronger institutions, chances of leaders breaking laws are tremendously reduced. A strong Court system, active lawyers, and energized political workers can keep any wayward politician straight and in check.

A strong system and further progress of a disciplined society who isn't always looking for "chacha" "mama" or use of other methods prevailing conventionally shall lead to lead very much needed to a strong future for Pakistan.

Unless we the Pakistani people give up the, might is right practices and learn to discuss with each other with due regard even if there is a difference of opinion with each other, as long as we cannot convey ourselves with regard and fail to follow a system (once it is there) no matter what Pakistan will not gain it's right place.

With regards to the Executive, Judiciary and Legislature we all know how sincere and loyal most of them have been in carrying out their responsibilities thus far, at this point there are several who appear to be working hard to put it all together once again and lets see if the hard work of those performing with sincerity and loyalty pays off, or we as a nation are going to prove to be our biggest enemy once again.
Wasalam
Best regards.

#124 Posted by rf786
“this can be corroborated by his appeal in Punjab and so lack of in other provinces.”

Not entirely true or accurate. This issue has broad based support. Akhtar Mangal also publically supported the restoration of judges. We already know the support in NWFP.

In the interior of Sindh, the PPP workers and the leaders support the demand. No one in Sindh said anything against Nawaz when he pulled out of the Federal Cabinet. Sindhi papers are also supporting the restoration. That’s why the PPP is under pressure to stay with the demand. The non MQM Urdu speaking supports the issue. You can see that from the lawyers’ actions in Karachi.

You see every political worker in the country understands the significance of this matter. Political workers get the idea behind the restoration that the army must be shown. When you have parboiled food you cook it and not leave that sitting out there to be thrown out a day later.

This issue needs to be looked outside the personal behavior of Judges or one particular Chief Justice. He has provided an opportunity for the politicians and perhaps his role ended after that. But he needs to be brought back if nothing else, for a day to provide the victory to the political workers in the country. The intensification of the lawyers’ movement would help the future democratic course in the country.

“does anybody even remember that it was Benazir Bhutto ultimate sacrifice that led to a free and fair election? Why has the PPP command gone quite on this issue?”

When she was murdered, the elections were already announced and she was campaigning in Pindi. The free and fair is really a matter of perception. . She was talking with the Generals for two years before March 2007 and was not going anywhere with the negotiations until the CJ issue heated up. Boosted by the CJ restoration in July, her deal was finally sealed with the army or Gen. Musharaf. She did not bring the people out on the streets, the Lawyers did that.

Her deal helped with taking off his wardi but for that he was under pressure from the US already. Now Zardari is trying to complete her end of the deal which was probably to protect the army and leave Musharaf in place for as long as politically possible.

“Assuming Musharraf goes, then what next? Will NS and others continue to uphold the law?”

Nothing is guaranteed. In politics when you have stronger institutions, chances of leaders breaking laws are tremendously reduced. A strong Court system, active lawyers, and energized political workers can keep any wayward politician straight and in check.

#124 Posted by rf786,

even though they have done very little in practical terms to support the lawyers movement led by a PPP Jiyala ...?

Resigning from Federal power and 15 Federal Ministries is not in practical terms?

Re: # 122

HP,

Ethnic loyalties are playing a major role driving support for the EX-CJ=IC, this can be corroborated by his appeal in Punjab and so lack of in other provinces. But, I agree with your assertion that the judiciary needs to be restored and the illegal acts reversed.

Assuming Musharraf goes, then what next? Will NS and others continue to uphold the law? I doubt that very much, we saw early signs of their irritation with the lawyers movement immediately after the elections, in all probability they will try to monopolize power through whatever means.

I agree with PPP policy of bringing these issues to the parlimant rather than using strong arm tactics as promoted by that idiot NS.

Finally, does anybody even remember that it was Benazir Bhutto ultimate sacrifice that led to a free and fair election? Why has the PPP command gone quite on this issue? In a way, PML-N has dominated the war of words and established their political superiority by supporting the judiciary even though they have done very little in practical terms to support the lawyers movement led by a PPP Jiyala. What gives Saeen?

#116 Posted by izuber,

... supporting a character who himself resorted to unlawful means ...

This is oft-repeated BS. What unlawful means? I thought Sajjad Ali Shah was removed by a full bench of SC (except one judge) meeting at Quetta.

Can you state what unlawful means were used?

Now I'm sure you're going to say Saeduzzaman Siddiqui and other judges were given briefcases of money by Rafiq Tarar. Right? That's what they said in the newspapers and you folks believe that nonsense. How was it then that the same Saeeduzzaman Siddiqui refused PCO oath under Musharraf if he was corrupt?

Now please answer the question in the second para. Thanks ...

#121 Posted by rf786

I don’t think the Judges issue has anything to do with ethnic loyalties or even the judiciary politicized by the CJ. All Supreme Courts were politicized. It was true when the SCs were writing judgment favoring the army or they were ordering Bhutto’s death or upholding the doctrine of necessity. Those were all political decisions.

In this CJ’s case the army twice tried to remove him. First thru the legal means and when that failed by declaring emergency. That was a blatant violation of the constitution by the army and there is no reason whatsoever to live with that decision. That decision has to be reversed and that is important for the health of the nation. This is not a personal issue and the CJ’s person has no importance. We are dealing with a violation of the constitution and that should be punished.

The pak army has violated the constitution many times but every time they got out of the jail without paying any price for that because the public’s political consciousness was not high enough to challenge the army actions then. Things have clearly changed and now the political parties, the lawyers and the other groups want to fight the army action and reverse it to show to the army that the country has moved beyond the dictatorial days or the days when army broke all laws and the constitution and people had to swallow that.

Pakistan cannot move forward without reversing Nov 3 emergency decision.
I personally don’t think that both parties had the right approach in dealing with the issue. I would say let the PPP bring the changes to the parliament and let the country discuss the issue. The lawyers should also continue with their protest until this issue is resolved or the country enters another phase of difficult struggle. The army and the PPP are playing to bury this issue and that should never be allowed to happen.

The May 12th and April 9 must also be investigated. Let the people see whose hands are clean. Those who oppose the investigations are actually saying that they are the responsible party.

While this is taking place the state should also work on the Baluchistan and the FATA issues.

Re: # 107

Dearest tahmed32

There are no angels in this cesspool of Pakistan that includes your stupid meglomaniacal EX-CJ=IC. Of all the people who should be retired from Pakistan it is EX-CJ=IC who has politicized the judiciary while at the same time pandered to the military junta when it suited his ambitions. So, please spare us with this morality bull shit, aapko zeb naheen detha.

As for the clean politicians such as Asfandyar, well my dear simpleton there is so much that you need to learn. Ask any Pathan from |Sarhad and he will tell you of their corruption. There again, please spare us with your simplistic bs.

Finally, on NS supporting EX-CJ=IC, seems you suffer from amnesia or maybe its selective amnesia. This dugga can storm the supreme court and issue orders to bribe other judges what makes you think he has/she has changed? Then again, ethnic loyalties are not monopolies, so please spare us with your self-righteous hollow sermons.

..and let me add to #119: there is no shortage of individuals like you who for one reason or another think it is good to side with those seeking to keep Pakistanis enslaved in one way or another (ethnic loylaties, military connections, and so forth).

You can rest assured that you will get nothing by the suppression of the rule of law and basic rights in Pakistan.

And in supporting those forces arrayed against the Chief Justice and other brave Pakistanis fighting for the supremacy of the constitution (which includes protection of basic rights), you are merely giving your children a lawless country in which might is right.

mabdullah #114 "in our hatred of mush or mqm, zardari or asfandyar, mohajirs or qadianis, or whatever and whoever we hate, for whatever reason, we must not lose basic decency."

that is indeed very clever - lump blatant law-breakers (mush), outright murderers of peaceful demonstrators (mqm) with law-abiding politicians (asfandary) and entire communities of people (mohajirs, qadianis). (

You talk about decency?? Where was your "decency" when you were busy writing the above obscenity of hiding criminals behind ordinary politicians?? Do you think you are being very clever by protecting scoundrels of mqm and musharraf? You have to be stupid to side with criminals just because they happen to be of your ethnicity.

"Mumlikat-e-Khudadad-e-Pakistan"???

LOL!!

No wonder this country is yet to find its "..-e-.. " in the world!!

I agree with the post # 6 (and similar ones and do not buy to all the white washing done to prop the writer). Not only the article is outright insulting to other ethnicities, it is written in a bad taste, to say the least. Such racialism does not help Pakistan in anyway. It flares the already simmering discords. Those who have tolerated its racialist and offensive overtones saying that it was meant only for humour are condoning such writings which do not help but harm the coherence of a society that is longing for harmony and concord. Humour is no license to insulting. Even street ‘bhands’ of Karachi (and Lahore and Quetta and Peshawar for that matter) KNOW THAT MUCH and show more sensibility in their jokes despite their education than this first class condescending air traveler airing its bigotry only for self gratification.
A concerned Pakistani....

Re: # 115
Toppling of Judiciary by the Executive branch is exemplary, it was then and it is now.
It was by Executive's choice then and that does not make them any more credible regardless of the reason.
To hate a legislation on the books does not permit one to topple the judiciary under any circumstances, or does it?
Zeemax this is where the ignorance prevails where the entire nation is falling victim to ignorance by supporting a character who himself resorted to unlawful means implying that he/she could take it upon themselves to remove a sitting judge.
Two wrongs dont make a right and when the nation recognizes a "wrong doer" they need to be sent to the corner.
The choice of ignorant individuals to lead a nation to ignorance. Now its upto those who make such choices of leadership which camp they place themselves under.

#109 Posted by izuber,

If you still don't know the palace intrigues with active connivance of superior judiciary, even after all events following 9 March 2007, and think that Justice Sajjad was playing no part in the same intrigues in connivance with Pres Farooq Laghari (mainly to restore 58 2-b), I applaud your ignorance.

#104 tahmed32

in our hatred of mush or mqm, zardari or asfandyar, mohajirs or qadianis, or whatever and whoever we hate, for whatever reason, we must not lose basic decency. that was my point.

btw, i found some glimpses of your praised pkpolitics.com quite disgusting. hatred begets hatred. did you see these samples:

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/

Re: # 112
Peons can hate as much as they want, I dont carry the word hatred in my vocabulary.
In as much as your use of the word "muttarwa" is considered you idiots don't understand that Punjabis alone do not represent Pakistan. I know your level of illiteracy and ignorance which compels your kind to conclude all your conversations inflicting indignities on non-Punjabis however be assured that this attitude will not be taken quietly and shall be encountered in kind with full force.
It would be very kind of you to refrain from indulging in matters that are beyond your intellect, it is people like you that we have a Bangladesh today but your dream of creating a Punjabistan is guaranteed to never come true.
Scratch your bald head and go to sleep.

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Honor of the Judiciary, now we want it; now we don't; it was all cool & dandy when the Not-so-sharief felt its OK but this time around it is the only issue that is to be settled to proclaim restoration of democracy

The attack on the Supreme Court

Pakistan grappled with its worst-ever constitutional crisis when an unruly mob stormed into the supreme court, forcing Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah to adjourn the contempt of court case against Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. Hundreds of Pakistan Muslim League supporters and members of its youth wing, the Muslim Students Front (MSF), breached the police cordon around the courthouse when defence lawyer S.M. Zafar was arguing his case.

A journalist rushed into the courtroom and warned the bench of an impending attack. Whereupon, the chief justice got up abruptly, thanked Zafar and adjourned the hearing. While judicial members left the courtroom soon after, the mob entered it shouting slogans, and damaged furniture.

The unruly mob, led by ruling party member from Punjab Sardar Naseem and Colonel (retired) Mushtaq Tahir Kheli, Sharif's political secretary, chanted slogans against the chief justice. The mob also beat up Pakistan Peoples Party senator Iqbal Haider. The police managed to restore normalcy after baton charging and teargassing the mob, both inside and outside the courthouse. The court which assembled at 9:45 a.m., could continue the proceedings for only about 45 minutes.

Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah requested President Farooq Leghari to take steps to post army or paramilitary soldiers in the Supreme Court building, and at the residences of the chief justice and other judges hearing the contempt case against Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

In his letter Justice Sajjad Ali Shah narrated the incidents which took place in the court. He stated that during the hearing of the contempt case against the prime minister and others, certain advocates stooped to rowdiness. He said some of the intruders were overheard saying that they wanted to take the CJ hostage.

The case was adjourned and the judges were taken to the chamber of the chief justice under police escort. He said after Thursday's rowdy scenes in the court room, he had directed the registrar to issue passes only to people concerned as usually government supporters jam-packed the court. The chief justice further said several people had informed him over telephone that a BBC report about the attack showed policemen doing nothing to stop the mob.

He said when court officials present at the gate asked the police as to why they were not preventing the crowd from entering the premises, they replied that since most of the protesters were government supporters, they were helpless.

Justice Sajjad said films were available with court officials to show how big the crowds were and how they broke into the court room. He further said court officials told him that when the mob was dispersing, they heard announcements that arrangements had been made for lunch at the Punjab House.

Another Judicial account:
As Chief Justice of Supreme Court When Dr. Nasim Hasan Shah retired as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court in 1994, Justice Saad Saud Jan should have rightly taken his place. But Ms Benazir Bhutto threw tradition overboard when she by-passed two senior judges and appointed Sajjad Ali Shah as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Later she was dismissed by President Farooq Leghari on charges of corruption and Sajjad Ali Shah along with 6 other members of the Supreme Court upheld this decision. Reading from a 12-page short order, Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah said

The presidential order contained enough substance and adequate material had been provided to conclude that the government could not be run in accordance with the provisions of the constitution and that an appeal to the electorate had become necessary.

What restoration of Judiciary and what reinstatement of CJ, all these politicians have been lying all along and will continue to do so for their personal benefits.
A salute to those who look beyond personal interests and for collective interest of the nation, read all about it

"Our problems are peculiar to us, and we need to handle it our way. The only solution is accountability."

By: Tashbih Sayyed

According to independent observers, Mian Nawaz Sharif has an autocratic streak in his character that is maintained by his vengeful mentality. When Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah ordered the release of some civil servants who were arrested by order of the Prime Minister, Mian Nawaz Sharif, they automatically assumed that the Chief Justice was his rival. This became the starting point of a long tussle that culminated in an attack on the Supreme Court on November 28, 1997. Mian Nawaz Sharif took it upon himself to punish Justice Sajjad Ali Shah for his just and principled stand. This led to the establishment of special Courts, which were established in contravention of the Chief Justices judicious advice. These special courts, which were established to benefit the PM’s allies and supporters, eventually proved to be a humiliating blot on the face of justice in Pakistan. Later on when the Chief Justice wanted to fill the five vacant positions of judges to be able to carry out the business of dispensing justice in a speedy manner, the Prime Minister not only refused to grant the request but went ahead and abolished those vacancies altogether. He had to restore the positions under pressure but refused to fill them up.

The heavy mandate that Nawaz Sharif received from the people of Pakistan became his undoing. Thinking that because of an absolute majority in the assembly, he could get away with murder, he showed his true colors. One of the weapons that he employed extensively to disadvantage those he felt threatened by was creating rifts and dissension in their camps. In his self-imposed war against the Chief Justice he succeeded in dividing the judges into two camps. The group of judges that sided with the Prime Minister said openly that if Justice Sajjad Ali Shah give up trying cases against Mian Nawaz Sharif, they will accept him as the Chief Justice.

During this whole crisis, Justice Sajjad Ali Shah came out not only to be an extraordinary judicious mind but also a man of character that refused to compromise on principals in the face of extreme state pressures. He did not allow himself to be blackmailed by these moves. Justice Sajjad Ali Shah is credited for starting Judicial Activism in Pakistan. The legal experts are of the opinion that during this whole period when the Prime Minister was trying to humiliate him professionally, he remained within the framework of law. He did not lose his cool even when the government started trying to amend the constitution just to favor Nawaz Sharif. Mian Nawaz Sharif is not the only one who misunderstood him, but the other corrupt Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto was also misguided by his sense of duty and responsibility, thinking that he was partially in her favor. Her misguidance is explained by factors that led to the appointment of Mr. Justice Sajjad as chief justice by her, as narrated by a political commentator, “ The main reason appears to be the short-sighted, narrow-minded and parochial approach of Benazir and her government. She was perhaps carried away by his two dissents, every time apparently in favor of the PPP. In Ahmad Tariq Rahim's case, in which the dismissal of the Benazir government by President Ghulam Ishaq Khan in 1990 was challenged, Justice Sajjad was one of the two dissenting judges who held in his dissenting opinion that the order of the President to dissolve the National Assembly was invalid. He observed that the purpose of dissolution was to get rid of the government of the PPP.

In the Nawaz Sharif case, when the dismissal of his government by President Ishaq came under challenge, Justice Sajjad was the lone dissenter out of eleven judges on the bench. He, in his dissenting opinion, upheld Ishaq's order as valid and expressed disapproval of the way the then CJ (Dr. Shah) had announced at the very beginning of the proceedings that the nation would hear good news. He also made a very pungent remark at the end of his judgment saying that when two PMs from Sindh were removed under the discretionary powers of the president, the Supreme Court did not restore them but when the turn of a PM from Punjab came, the tables had been turned. These remarks/observations of Justice Sajjad in these cases must have rankled Benazir's mind while she was deciding on his appointment. She might have thought that he, being a Sindhi and a sympathizer of the PPP (as it appeared to her from these judgments), would go along and protect the interests of her government.

Subsequent events have repelled this impression and established Justice Sajjad as a man of his own. His remarks in those judgments reflected his own thinking and not a bias in favor of the PPP, as was perhaps assumed. The assumption must have been based on myopic thinking that has lately developed in Pakistan's political circles that if someone disagrees or opposes one major political party, even out of his honest belief, he is believed to belong to the opposite camp. It was in such mistaken belief that the PPP government took the fateful decision of appointing Justice Sajjad on June 5, 1994.” Today, when it is so difficult for the masses to find even one person in whom they can put their trust in, Justice Sajjad’s personality seems a life-saver. Pakistan Today, in this exclusive interview with him, tried to assess his views on the current situation in Pakistan after the proclamation of the state of emergency by Chief Of Army Staff, General Pervez Musharraf.

Pakistan Today: The present military chief executive is under a lot of pressure by the US especially to restore the civilian government, what is your comment?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: We have internal problems in the country, and they are of such a nature, that they have to be treated and solved first. Our main problem is corruption. Our economy has gone down because of deep rooted corruption in society. ..from bureaucrats and others. Eliminating corruption is crucial...any change to be brought about in the country, it must address corruption and accountability. Some time should be given to address these issues in great detail, so a recovery could be made to allow Pakistan to stand on its own two feet.

Pakistan Today: Are you in favor of a caretaker government?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: Yes, a caretaker government is very essential right now. A caretaker government or whatever they (Chief Executive) have in mind, and they have announced now will continue until all corruption is eliminated.

Pakistan Today: Even in caretaker governments, the same faces (corruption) seem to arise again. How can you prevent that?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: This is the main purpose of accountability. If accountability is done, and their is proof of corruption, then on that charge they can be disqualified, room will be made for new faces. This can only happen when accountability process is taken and applied to all without any discrimination. So, some time is required. We need to be able to stand on our own two feet. We have to be self-reliant. We need time for that. We need sympathy and support from other countries that are our friends. So we can be in a position to do something for our country. Our problems are peculiar to us, and we need to handle it our way. The only solution is accountability.

Pakistan Today: Do you feel that the actions of General Musharruf are justified?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: He is justified because this is the need of the hour. Otherwise, this country would disintegrate. The system needs to be reformed, without reform I do not think the country can survive.

Pakistan Today: Do you think that the Supreme Court can justify the General’s action?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: On the principle of doctrine of necessity, I think the changes in government can be justified. If there is no other alternative, no other way out, and this is the only solution available, then I think it is better to save the country, save the system then not.

Pakistan Today: If you are offered a position in the new government, will you take it?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: I am prepared to make any contribution or sacrifice that is offered to me to help save my country.

Pakistan Today: Can Pakistan withstand all the external pressures, if the IMF and the World Bank withhold money for example?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: I think if there is unity, and the intentions before us are lofty and noble, and we want an economic revival on the basis of self-reliance, there will be difficulties which we must withstand through coordination within our ranks, cooperation and good understanding.

Pakistan Today: What kind of ideas do you have for the new government?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: I hope that this government has good intentions in their reforms. If there is rule of law in the system, and people are treated without discrimination, and corruption is also eliminated through accountability, I think we will be able to succeed in our objective and we can attain self-respect in the community of nations. Pakistanis abroad should help their homeland by molding opinion abroad to support us. They need to foster help, and understanding, otherwise the country is going to break up. The time has come to reform our system. This malady can be cured only through cooperation from all others who are our friends.

Pakistan Today: Now, I would like to divert your attentions to comments to made by Benazir Bhutto, who has asked that elections be held within the next 90 days. What are your feelings on that?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: If elections are held within the next 90 days, then the reforms cannot be put into effect. Corruption cannot be eliminated. Real reforms can only take root through accountability which requires a longer period than 90 days. Naturally, politicians would not like to support accountability, because most of them will be found guilty. So, they want elections in the shortest amount of time so reforms cannot take place.

Pakistan Today: When you were the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and it came under attack by the Muslim League, there were at least three or four references against Nawaz Sharif pending in your court. Do you have any comments about their credibility?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: Yes, my anxiety at that time was, that the complaints contained allegations of corruption, and the cases should be looked into according to the law. Nawaz Sharif thought, because he was Prime Minister, the cases should not proceed against him. And, you see, the anxiety was that all should be treated equally under the law. He did not want those cases to be heard. That is because he did not believe in the rule of law. If there is no rule of law, then the system would collapse. This is what has happened in the country. there is no rule of law, no respect for it.

Pakistan Today: Your removal was illegitimate, do you think they should offer you your position back?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: It is too late. Unless they amend the constitution. And the constitution should not be amended for one person. I want my country to be saved. Pakistan is a great country. I want the country to survive. For that I am prepared to offer my services in any capacity because I want the system to be saved.

Pakistan Today: What problems do you foresee in the way for General Pervez Musharruf?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: I think a lot of pressure will be placed from other countries to return to democratic government in the shortest amount of time. Some more time will be required though, so they should be patient, because we want to solve our problems first with their cooperation.

Copyright © 1997 Pakistan Today

#101 Posted by mabdullah,

You did read my post re pkpolitics on the other board. I support pkpolitics. They tell the truth.

rf: Nawaz Sharif has taken a firm stand on restoration of the Chief Justice. The Chief Justice has taken a firm stand in defense of the basic rights of Pakistanis.

You can try to cover up these facts with the usual mqm/musharraf tricks of "oolta chor kotwaal ko dantay" - but you are fooling only yourself.

Re: # 104

tahmed32

I am glad you have added Zardari a Sindhi's name to your illustrious list, still no sign of that haram ka pilla Nawaz Sharif shows your Punjabi biases.

Once again, this is not PUNJABISTAN but PAKISTAN, if you wish to pursue this PUNJABISTAN strategy then that is what u and your harami Sharifs should demand.

They haven't got it , or have they...?


Musharraf and his collaborators , especially the Loyal British Subject , the proud holder of the RED British Passport, duly rewarded for his immense role , regarding the safe guard of 'THEIR' interest in the AREA , have systematically destroyed each and every Institute in this god forsaken unfortunate so called country.

...By the WAY , this Musharraf has already , technically speaki